Thoughts of Suicide

[Trevor Salyzyn]

Alex,

. I am only offering a counterpoint to your advice to Imbecil, another way to examine things, and another possible avenue to pursue. You wouldn't know anything about ritual use of psychedelics because you have never used them in that way, but others here do know about them, and can at least understand what sort of inner processes they provoke.

Illicit drugs are bad news for anyone who requires psychiatric care. It is not a good recommendation. It will make any existing problem worse. The dangers of drugs are compounded by mental illness.

On the other hand, recommending psychiatry is somewhat reasonable, but recommending it to a stranger when you have little insight into their personality and upbringing is not that useful. I've been dealing with psychiatrists for 6 years, and I'm on my fourth diagnosis. It's difficult for trained professionals, who have access to the observations of family members and nursing staff, let alone the Internet.

I suggested a problem-solving approach, coupled with patience and relaxation. This is far more helpful than drugs, and even if it turns out that psychiatry is necessary, those are virtues that are needed when going through the mental healthcare system.

As far as these drugs (anti-depressants, etc.) being a 'dignified solution', I would be able to say something about this because my younger sister has been using these drugs for about 10 years, and I have watched her personality and her intelligence slowly decline. I am not sure personally if that is a 'dignified' result. She is not all there.

That is common with mental illness. None are fully treatable, and an illness takes a toll, even with medication. Most medications can only treat positive symptoms (like hallucinations, delusions, and racing thoughts), but not the negative ones (loss of energy and memory).

For instance, high amounts of stress leave me dormant, often for days on end. I have no illusion that this would disappear if I were to stop taking medication: rather, I would only manifest more symptoms, and the untreatable symptoms would get worse. (The medication that could treat this problem reacts strongly with my brain chemistry, and can lead to hospitalization. I'm treated as much as possible, without creating new risks.)

[maestro]

As far as these drugs (anti-depressants, etc.) being a 'dignified solution', I would be able to say something about this because my younger sister has been using these drugs for about 10 years, and I have watched her personality and her intelligence slowly decline. I am not sure personally if that is a 'dignified' result. She is not all there.

I am with Alex on this one. In my opinion the doctors are trained to keep people forever on drugs, and the drugs do take away some vitality from the person and render them progressively dull.

I can imagine how substances such as LSD and psychiatric drugs may have a great therapeutic value in breaking the mind out of its funk and at least making it clear that the world depends on your viewpoints and mental habits. However it is imperative to combine them with a behavioral change practice such as mindfulness.

[Trevor Salyzyn]

maestro,

In my opinion the doctors are trained to keep people forever on drugs, and the drugs do take away some vitality from the person and render them progressively dull.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/560657
As I just said, it is the negative symptoms of the illness that cause this dullness, not the medication. The crippling effects of these symptoms is at best slowed by treatment.

Doctors hate prescribing drugs for a lifetime, but mental illnesses do not go away. There is no more cure for schizophrenia than there is for Down's Syndrome.

And I will repeat: prescribing powerful hallucinogens to the mentally ill is poor judgement. There is a world of difference between the effects of these drugs on a healthy mind and a chemically unbalanced one. When you hear about people taking some acid and spending months or years in a hospital, visited nightly by aliens, that is what I'm talking about. Or people who smoke pot and *snap* for no apparent reason.

[Tomas]

.

-Tomas' earlier crowing-
What, Nemo is now your best buddy.? he's been here all of 12 days..

-Shah-
I'm interesting in knowing what made you say that. Have I said something improper to Nemo?

-tomas
Nemo has his agenda, he's checkin' us old-timers out :-)




-tomas' earlier prognosis of some regulars-
Let's hope you all have something better to do than place a 21-year-old on drugs...

-Shah-
I always seem to make time to try to help any person who is going through a clinical depression, by sharing my experiences.

-tomas-
I see him more as being lazy, shiftless - lost in the material world (parents probably, too) By his own description, his parent(s) didn't motivate him to aspire to anything more than cable tv, internet. The heck with washing dishes, mow the lawn, a structuring of things-to-do whether you want to or not. No self-discipline in his home, just plain given everything...





-Shah-
If throughout all these years, I can help a single depressed person ease their pain, it will have been worth all the time I've devoted to this cause.

-tomas-
Send him a PM. Perhaps he'll respond in a more positive way. Maybe he'll never return here. It'll show up at his addy. So on and so forth.

At 21, why throw him to the pharmaceutical wolves?

PS - Sorry about not answering sooner, musta missed it what-with the high winds, here in North Dakota. Hope to leave this weekend, and the crap of adjusting to Cali lifestyle.

Life is hard




.

[Alex Jacob]

Trevor, you have to understand what I am writing in a theoretical sense. I am theoretically, and in no sense actually, offering remedies on the Internet.

For many people, it is the psychedelics, used in a ritual setting, that are the normal sacrament, and the anti-depressants would be the 'illicit drug'. I do understand what you are saying, though. If one is having problems with mental balance it is a very real problem, and compounding that problem with irresponsible and risky drug taking would not be recommended.

The way I think about these things is the following: If we get a physical sickness, especially a little later in life, they can usually be traces forensically back in time, and the choices and behaviors that led to the sickness can be analysed. They usually recommend that people make changes in life-style, eating habits, the way stress is dealt with, etc. It is all strictly common sensical.

Similarly, when we are young, we show all the psychological characteristics of our upbringing, what we have received from our parents, our milieu, etc. Especially in the pressure-cooker of our nearly-mad cultures (we all tend to agree here at GF that our culture is a sort of mad-entity that has us in its grip in one way or another) we all seem to know that we have suffered from 'it', and that suffering is mental suffering. Mental illness, as per the general GF definition, is par for the course, and the object is to become sane by rejecting madness, etc.

The way I see things, mental illness is what we all have to deal with, and especially those, like ourselves, who are essentially 'wired intellectually' and have this calling, if you will, to work in the ideational realm, as we seem to do here. Let us say that, substantially, mental illness is more or less a given, and it is what we have to 'overcome'.

That is why I am saying that it might be best for a young person, if they are able, to avoid long-term medication with anti-depressants or what-have-you and to consider other modalities, other paths, that might enable one to deal with incipient mental illness, that which is likely bound to manifest with time, because many of the symptoms are already there.

That is why I suggest not only a listening ear, some wise council, but what I predominantly stressed, which is the water of fast-flowing streams, the ocean, the forests, the dirt, the plants, in short nature, which is our essential and primary matrix. I am not speaking symbolically, I am speaking acutely really. It is a return to the Earth, and a literal invocation of the essential healing nature of the Earth, through which well-being can be reclaimed.

And some of these psychedelics literally hearken from the very bosom of nature, and are nature's emissaries.

If we can deal with a latency before it manifests as a full-blown illness, it presages so much for the individual.

[maestro]

Doctors hate prescribing drugs for a lifetime, but mental illnesses do not go away. There is no more cure for schizophrenia than there is for Down's Syndrome.

But there are the interests of the drug companies to consider, and it may well be that they do want a lifetime of prescription meds.

Perhaps schizophrenia is indeed intractable without a drug, but certainly milder imbalances such as depression or OCD should be amenable to self regulation. I speak from experience as I have vanquished OCD myself.

[Shahrazad]

Alex,

I believe your reply to me was dishonest and insincere, but I'm willing to let go of this argument as I don't see anything good coming out of it.

And I do believe the question I asked was perfectly fair and answerable.

[Shahrazad]

Maestro,

But there are the interests of the drug companies to consider, and it may well be that they do want a lifetime of prescription meds.

So? That is not a good argument that meds are not helpful in the long-term. Plus, the big brand meds get purchased when they first come out, and they are soon copied by other labs that sell them for pennies. They don't get to make money for a lifetime supply of drugs. Just as a quick example, I now pay pennies for a Prozac imitation (made in a Colombian lab with great quality products), which when I first got on was about two bucks a piece.

I would think the real money is in prescribing the latest meds. I just paid 50 bucks for state-of-the-art antibiotics that the doc (my sister!) prescribed for my kid, when I could've gotten old-fashioned penicillin.

[maestro]

So? That is not a good argument that meds are not helpful in the long-term.

Meds may be useful in the long term, but they are like a crutch. Is it not better to walk crutch free?

I suspect that the drug companies do not wish to develop cures for anything, they just want to develop medicines that are essentially meant to be taken forever. After all the main motive of these comapnies is profit. What is more profitable, a cure for the disease or drugs that need to be taken forever?

the big brand meds get purchased when they first come out, and they are soon copied by other labs that sell them for pennies. They don't get to make money for a lifetime supply of drugs. Just as a quick example, I now pay pennies for a Prozac imitation (made in a Colombian lab with great quality products), which when I first got on was about two bucks a piece.

That is quite possible in the developing world, but not so in the US, where the big drug companies fiercely protect their patents. They are lobbying developing nations to pass laws protecting intellectual property rights, so they can fleece everybody. It is in the best interests of the developing world to not fall in this trap.

[Shahrazad]

Maestro,

Meds may be useful in the long term, but they are like a crutch. Is it not better to walk crutch free?

I suppose we should also advise people to stop wearing glasses too. Who needs a crutch like that when they have their own eyes? If they can't see well, they just aren't focusing hard enough, or controlling their vision processing neurons, or whatever.

Those greedy optometrists -- they seem to just want to keep people wearing eye glasses forever. They have no interest in finding a cure for failing eyes. Let's not fall into their game.

[Alex Jacob]

"I believe your reply to me was dishonest and insincere, but I'm willing to let go of this argument as I don't see anything good coming out of it. And I do believe the question I asked was perfectly fair and answerable."

I think this answer of yours is a subterfuge, to avoid discussion. I personally think you are incapable of conversation. From you, to say 'I'm willing to let go of this argument' is laughable because you never picked it up in the first place and likely have no idea what it is about. As far as 'anything good coming out of it', that is always a choice and a decision that you would have to have made, but I don't think you have. The 'question' you asked, as I said, was a brainless and thoughtless question. If you were really interested in any part of a conversation on that theme---and you are not---you would have rephrased it and pressed the point. You have a classically lazy Latino mind. Look in yourself for the 'insincerity'.

And have a nice day!

;-)

[brokenhead]

You have a classically lazy Latino mind.

Them's fightin' words!

Shah, I don't believe Alex is advocating the use of recreational drugs. There has been nothing recreational at all in his description of his own usage, unless we get pedantic and break the word down into its original parts: "re-creation." This is how I myself have approached such drugs as LSD and mushrooms.

And Alex, you suggest Imbecil be wary of modern anti-depressants. He should be wary as a matter of course of anything he ingests. This should be a given. But you are grouping him in with people who take these prescriptions on a long-term basis and making "long-term" arguments with him. A guy who starts a thread entitled "Thoughts of Suicide" isn't likely to make long-term plans.

What he needs is attention and he needs it now. Shah and I just wanted to say to him "Don't let your healthy, natural distrust of taking psychoactive medications get in the way of reaching for the lifeline that anti-depressants can be."

This is life and death, this is about rediscovering the will to live. Its about opening a door that seems closed and that he's thinking about locking. Anti-depressants under the care of a physician can be a foot in that door. All he has to do is get his hand back on the knob, and he will start to feel he has his life back. He doesn't need to have the door blown off its hinges.

Need another analogy?

Thoughts of suicide. On the ledge. Needs to take small steps back to the window he came out of. Doesn't need someone telling him he can fly.

[Alex Jacob]

Thanks, brokenhead (I have to fight against myself not to capitalize the 'b').

You are of course completely right, and I did and do understand your intention.

I am attempting to broaden the conversation, and to tie it into the idea, the necessity, of spiritual life, and also religious life. I have been straightforward about my focus since I first signed on here.

I have the feeling that when we---as a culture---disconnect from our religious and spiritual roots that we sacrifice a great deal, that something very important is lost. One might describe it as a disconnection from the invisible body that connects us all, or like a kind of wellspring. As you likely know, I 'work specific angles' here, and my opinions are designed to function as counter-points especially to the 'atheism' of the founders of this list, and to the general atheistic pattern of idea. I perceive many of the denizens of our beloved GF as being 'post-modern outcomes', and that an aspect of the post-modern outcome is a species of madness and mental disease. Predominantly, they are also young men (not young women) and so they evince all these characteristics which are the characteristics that society wishes to medicate, and neutralize (let's be quite honest).

If we are not looking---if we are not finding---a genuine, connecting path to a living wellspring of life, what are any of us doing in fact? I use an analogy which is not an analogy, not symbolism, but the most basic of basic facts and truths---the real Truth---which is about a connection with the natural world to counterbalance a tendency toward mental abstraction that spins, at times, out of control.

I try to make the absolute most of my time on lists like this, and try to learn as much as I possibly can through reading other people's ideas and opinions, the 'praxis' of their lives.

I am not at all insulted---it is stage insult---yet to be accused of insincerity is a stinging slap to the very integrity of my Godly person! I shall take this to the highest court! To a Panamanian court! To receive 'justice'. (The whole universe breaks out in guffaws...)

Shah, would you like some clarification about 'the lazy Latino mind'? I assure you I could make an excellent case and with my 'truths' turn you into an exquisite, reactive enemy.

;-)

I am on the verge of beginning my World Mission to wake the slumbering Latino masses and will keep y'all updated as the process begins (it is like unto opening one of the Seven Seals).

[Remo]

@jacob expanding on recreational drugs and depression

theory of self medication

Some mental illness sufferers attempt to correct their illnesses by use of certain drugs. Depression, for example, is notorious for being a trigger of alcohol, tobacco, cannabis, or other mind-altering drug use. While this may provide immediate relief of some symptoms such as anxiety, it may evoke and/or exacerbate some symptoms of several kinds of mental illnesses that are already latently present, and may lead to addiction/dependence, among other side effects of long-term use of the drug. The theory that drug dependence or addiction results from self-medication for the distress caused by a pre-existing condition was introduced in 1974 by David F. Duncan and Edward J. Khantzian in independent publications. This theory has come to be known as the self-medication hypothesis. For example, sufferers of post-traumatic stress disorder are prone to self-medication, as well as many individual without this diagnosis which have suffered from (mental) trauma.

Guess it works for some people, also helps in the discovery of new applications for existing drugs.
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 53406.html

[imbecil]

I'm not a hit-and-runner, I have been reading the replies each day, I just haven't had the energy to reply.

I'd identify myself as overwhelmed and over-stressed, a combination that can lead me to consider suicide the easiest option.

Then, I'd consider other options. One might be breaking the challenge into manageable chunks, so as to no longer be overwhelmed.

I'm a very mellow person, but deep down I think that I am constantly stressed, which is something I should acknowledge. Breaking things down into manageable chunks would help a lot, but I also need a system to make sure I complete the task (instead of giving up after a week).

Have you considered audio books? I work the night shift at a local supermarket ... so I can just switch my embodied self off for nine hours a night and immerse myself in The Teaching Company's Philosophy back catalogue! It really has helped and I feel that I am getting a grasp of concepts that eluded my somewhat through my degree years and subsequently.

It's hard but it's doable. I suppose listening to audio books and lectures bypasses the whole willpower/motivation issue and I'm forcing the ideas into my skull, but so far as this works I'm willing to 'go along' with it.

Look into how to cultivate your own will and/or motivation - if you are surfing alot then use the internet in the way that many SHOULD use it but don't - as a vast source of information.

I have considered audio books, and I do think it would help. I have a great deal of respect for The Teaching Company. I have only watched one of their programs, but I have over 700GB of their video courses. If you are interested, I would highly suggest joining Spirit-Tracker.org and viewing their HUGE selection of TTC material. Books aren't the only thing I collect but never use.

See a psychiatrist.

You should be able to get some medication that will help you with the depression, which should also help with getting motivated to actually do things.

I am diagnosed with severe depression. I was on celexa for six months, and I believed that it helped me out a lot. I wasn't always so negative, and I had little trouble getting myself to sit down and study. However, my girlfriend at the time said that I was acting like an asshole, and my mother was afraid that it might do permanent damage to my serotonin receptors, or cause me to kill myself. When my prescription ran out, instead of getting a new one, I just stopped taking them, which I think might be what made me even more depressed. I dropped out of college, quit my job, and lost my girlfriend. However, I have re-enrolled, in a better college program, and got a new job that I just started yesterday. I would like to make it with my own strength, but I definitely recognize the help SSRIs can provide.

Vote for Obama.

Not a problem. Perhaps random, but Deus Ex is my favorite game, and I couldn't help but think of Alex Jacobson, one of the main characters.

IMO, you're going to have to go on anti-depressant drugs. After you pull yourself out of the depression, you'll see clearly what you have to do with your life. There's no way you're going to see it right now.

It's almost funny you would say that. I remember when I first started celexa and I felt like I had been living in a great fog. Everything around me started to clear up, and I felt like I could see the whole world more clearly.

The biggest problem with overthinking is that it leaves you feeling exausted and because of this everything seems insurmountable.

I couldn't agree more with this. I'm only 21 and I feel tired all day long. It doesn't matter how much sleep I get, it never seems like enough. I realize how destructive my negative thoughts are, they're just so hard to stop. I'm always in my head.

Imbecil

I second Shah's recommendation, just from my own life experience. The antidepressant drugs start off for a few weeks making you feel a little tired, and maybe thirsty and a little "off." After that, those effects disappear and you think the drug is not doing anything.

But you'll notice that the world around you gradually changes in subtle ways. You will stick to a task a bit longer, and then a bit longer, than before, and then results of your efforts start trickling in, and then becoming more regular. You won't be as easily discouraged by things, almost as if the world is being a little nicer to you. And it is, because you have begun to be nicer to it, and to yourself.

This really makes me want to get back on celexa. I really miss being able to focus my thoughts and efforts on accomplishing productive tasks. I'm really starting to reconsider my decision to stay off anti-depressants.

Attitude makes the difference between living in heaven or in hell.

What the anti-depressants did for me was change my attitude, very drastically. I was unable to have painful thoughts. Life seemed like a bowl of cherries, no matter how much tragedy there was. I just didn't give a shit about anything.

Thank you for sharing your experience. I want to take the anti-depressants again, but I don't like the idea of being reliant upon a pill. I also don't like the idea of altering my mental and chemical state on a constant basis. However, if I am unable to cure my depression by myself, and it has been at least 6 years at this point, I may have no choice.

------------------------------

I don't believe there is anything wrong with psychedelics, and I have had both good and bad experiences on them. I would love to explore this avenue more when I feel better about myself. Proper environment and framing is very important when taking psychedelics and I don't feel like I'm in the right place right now. I am kind of against anti-depressants, although I realize they are a much needed medication and provide an important role in helping people get their life back together. However, I feel they are greatly abused. Considering my situation it might be appropriate, but I would like to make it on my own. I'll give myself another chance to improve, but if things don't work out, then talk to my old psychiatrist about a new prescription if things don't work out.

[maestro]

I suppose we should also advise people to stop wearing glasses too. Who needs a crutch like that when they have their own eyes? If they can't see well, they just aren't focusing hard enough, or controlling their vision processing neurons, or whatever.

Isn't the point of enlightenment to reach a perfect balance of the mind?

As far as eyesight is concerned I find it hard to imagine that evolution would have left such a large percent of the population with myopia. It may have to do with the reading and other near sighted endeavors, and may be alleviated by appropriate exercises etc.

[brokenhead]

Thank you for sharing your experience. I want to take the anti-depressants again, but I don't like the idea of being reliant upon a pill. I also don't like the idea of altering my mental and chemical state on a constant basis

Good to hear from you. We may seem to an argumentative motley crew here at GF, but most of us really do give a shit, so we're glad you're still kicking.

You have to understand that while SSRIs may be altering your brain's chemical state, they could be, if taken properly, altering an imbalance, thereby restoring a more normal balance. They are giving you yourself back, and helping you regain a balanced outlook. If you have persistent thoughts of suicide, then you should not let a normal reluctance to rely on an outside med get in the way of fixing that. Such an outlook makes things so difficult, like trying to run in waist-deep water. When life is one step up and two steps back, its only a matter of time before you feel as though you have run out of room. You feel as though life is passing you by, and after a while of that, as though life has already passed you by. The truth is it hasn't, but you should do whatever it takes to help you see that for yourself.

Remember, use of SSRIs is not necessarily a life sentence, either. You are young, so you must use them under a doctor's care, but while they often don't seem to be doing anything, their overall effect can be profound. I got a laugh out of my doctor when he asked me how things were going under Effexor treatment, and I could only think of summing it up this way: "I still get depressed, only now I don't care." In other words, instead of depression becoming a downward spiral with no end in sight, it didn't feed on itself any more. I had developed a track record of life successes that quickly put a limit to the spiral, and the depression would pass quickly.

For nobody's life perfect all the way through, but you cannot - must not - go through it feeling it is never worth living. You deserve better - you need better. Try any lifeline you can, but keep fighting. And remember, you are so young still that if I tell you your whole life is ahead of you, it is no mere platitude.

[Carl G]

For nobody is life perfect all the way through, but you cannot - must not - go through it feeling it is never worth living. You deserve better - you need better. Try any lifeline you can, but keep fighting. And remember, you are so young still that if I tell you your whole life is ahead of you, it is no mere platitude.

*cues Julie Andrews*

"Climb ev'ry mountain,
ford ev'ry stream,
follow ev'ry rainbow,
'til you find...your dream!"

[brokenhead]

For nobody is life perfect all the way through, but you cannot - must not - go through it feeling it is never worth living. You deserve better - you need better. Try any lifeline you can, but keep fighting. And remember, you are so young still that if I tell you your whole life is ahead of you, it is no mere platitude.

*cues Julie Andrews*

"Climb ev'ry mountain,
ford ev'ry stream,
follow ev'ry rainbow,
'til you find...your dream!"

I take that back, Imbecil - here's a guy whose life isn't worth living.

[Loki]

I've looked through his posts, and Carl G strikes me as a very bitter, negative, cynical, parasitic and highly insincere individual.

His posts always seem to pedantically nit-pick, disparage and parody the character and comments of others.

He hardly ever contributes anything inspiring or enlightening. It's always this mean-spirited parody of others sincerity.

I really wish you'd give up the act, Carl. It's really growing old.

[Carl G]

I've looked through his posts, and Carl G strikes me as a very bitter, negative, cynical, parasitic and highly insincere individual.

Sorry you have that impression. I am actually a very friendly, positive person with not a lot of time to pontificate but who feels it important to point out such things as illogic, poor thinking, and idealist emotion.

His posts always seem to pedantically nit-pick,

Sorry but logic and reasoning totally rely on accuracy.

disparage and parody the character

I do not. I disparage or parody sentiments or beliefs.

and comments of others.

And what is wrong with this, if I am making a point? Do you think parody cannot be used to make a point? Do you think we should not criticize the comments of others?

He hardly ever contributes anything inspiring

Oh, is that our job here as posters, to inspire others?

or enlightening

That is pretty much all I do. I offer people opportunities to see their weaknesses.

It's always this mean-spirited parody of others sincerity.

Incorrect. I am never mean-spirited and I never parody sincerity.

FYI, this is a dojo, not a coffee klatch.

I really wish you'd give up the act, Carl. It's really growing old.

Of the posters here, who would you have me emulate? Seriously, who meets your standard?

[Loki]

It's always this mean-spirited parody of others sincerity.

Incorrect. I am never mean-spirited and I never parody sincerity.

You never parody sincerity? Ok, you are also a liar.

FYI, this is a dojo, not a coffee klatch.

A dojo? Dude, this is simply a discussion forum. It's a place for people to discuss ideas.

I really wish you'd give up the act, Carl. It's really growing old.

Of the posters here, who would you have me emulate? Seriously, who meets your standard?

Don't worry about emulating others. I'm calling you out for being glib and cheeky.

With the poster struggling with suicidal thoughts and depression, it's not cool to mock and parody broke's attempt at inspiring optimism.

[brokenhead]

Yeah, Loki, lighten up a little.

I was only kidding. I like Carl and I think he often makes good points in his posts. He's just being (what he thinks is) humorous many times.

[brokenhead]

It's always this mean-spirited parody of others sincerity.

Incorrect. I am never mean-spirited and I never parody sincerity.

You never parody sincerity? Ok, you are also a liar.

FYI, this is a dojo, not a coffee klatch.

A dojo? Dude, this is simply a discussion forum. It's a place for people to discuss ideas.

I really wish you'd give up the act, Carl. It's really growing old.

Of the posters here, who would you have me emulate? Seriously, who meets your standard?

Don't worry about emulating others. I'm calling you out for being glib and cheeky.

When a poster is struggling with suicide and depression, it's not cool to mock and parody broke's attempt at inspiring optimism.

Although you're right there - this is a very serious thread,

[Loki]

I'll try to lighten up.

Maybe I just sometimes envy how aloof, detached, condescending, and amused Carl often seems to be.

But one view I will defend is that Broke gave some good advice and inspiration to imbecil, and Carl tried to deflate it, and I find that a bit contemptible.