GENIUS FORUMS

Tomas wrote:Are you in AA or some such organization?

Don't you have anything original to say??

Yes Tomas, I've been associated with the AA fellowship for some 32 years.

And as far as my originality goes, I can only suggest you go back through this thread and decide for yourself.

Bob M.

All that is of course true, and that was my point. Harry Haller saw it all, he saw into it all, he lived and breathed and suffered it all. He was constantly on the verge of suicide because of his sharp intelligence and sensitivity. His whole life and all his preparation brought him to the brink of the abyss and he suffered tremendously with his knowledge. Something needed to shift or annihilation would result. And what happened? Instead of resisting everything and holding himself aloof from all that was base and low, he was forced to seek his salvation in it and through it. At the end of his mortal rope, he stumbled into a nightclub and met Hermine, who took one look at him and saw his ailment. He had nowhere else to turn but to that which he held in contempt.

The long and the short of it is that Hesse's book---there are many levels to it of course and it is one of his most complex---is a testament to Hesse's own process of coming to terms with the way things are and the way things will remain. He had to come to accept and even to love life's 'insipid lutes', the tinny Jazz music from a gramophone, the course and the low, life's vulgar casualties, all that was detestable to an aristocratic disposition.

Psychically, Harry Haller is a sort of creative strategy for dealing with 'the way things are and will remain'.

The point in saying what I said about George Leonard is that George Leonard, with his lamentation, did nothing to change anything. It is just words. The only thing an individual has, in the face of the mediocrity of the world and the modern 'slouching toward Gomorrah', is some sort of spark within ourselves. Something that, I suspect, many of us are trying to find.

Only an individual can resurrect himself or be resurrected. The world is never, ever going to understand or appreciate that.

Carl G wrote:Hey, Bob, what's up with the parting of the ways? Do you deny that the head has a role to play in spiritual development (or whatever we wish to call it)? Are you a 100% heart guy, for real? Perhaps I misunderstand your slant on things...

True understanding of me or anything of real spiritually edifying value must first begin with the understanding of oneself, Carl. One must be in the process of re-creating that vital head to heart connection. Re-developing that intuitive mechanism or sixth sense, if you will. That critically important human function which has been damaged by our childhood conditioning. And in many cases fatally.

Bob M.

Talking Ass wrote:The point in saying what I said about George Leonard is that George Leonard, with his lamentation, did nothing to change anything. It is just words. The only thing an individual has, in the face of the mediocrity of the world and the modern 'slouching toward Gomorrah', is some sort of spark within ourselves. Something that, I suspect, many of us are trying to find.

Only an individual can resurrect himself or be resurrected. The world is never, ever going to understand or appreciate that.

Are you saying that all men heretofore wrote and spoke in vain, TA? And would that include yourself too? And that we can be of no value in the 'resurrection' of others?

Bob M.

Bob Michael wrote:

syzygy wrote:Clearing up the illusion of "deep irreparable brain damage" is a good place to start. Let's get rid of using thought, distorted by fear, as a way of speaking to the Infinite. It's just not accurate.

For thought and emotion to operate effectively in problem-solving, we must have thought work in concert with and in service of the Infinite (truth). Also, we must feel our fears and own them on a subjective personal level, so that we don't allow them to distort our thinking. When logical and emotional intelligences work together, the result is naturally in service of Truth and that which is Infinite, which cannot be bested by "negative". distortion falls away.

The brain is very responsive to all manner of influences. The rigidity we see in people and in patterns is not our natural state, but represents the illusions we keep buying into, over and over. Anyone can wake up in any moment, in Truth.

Here's where I must part ways with you my friend. Along with offering you my very best wishes in your journey.Bob M.

Ah, okay, Bob. You were objecting only to the first and last paragraphs above, where syzygy says anyone can awaken anytime regardless of brain damage. And you actually do agree with the middle paragraph, which speaks of the need for head and heart to work together. It sounded like you were dismissing the entire quoted passage.

what an egoistic group we are when we expect reality to conform to our thoughts/feelings about it. Both of which are created through our lifelong conditioning by other ego-driven beings, btw, rather than on realistic appraisal. All the while, we blind ourselves to the brilliance we are immersed in.

when we create the experience that our redemption is "out there" in time, and then experience discord as a result, well, that's our choice. we are willful beings.

we live being out of touch with reality.

Most of us are doing so, and willfully so, in that we cling to our notions.

syzygy wrote:what an egoistic group we are when we expect reality to conform to our thoughts/feelings about it.

Who here do you see doing this? Obviously think and feel does not automatically imply expectation.

Carl G wrote:

syzygy wrote:what an egoistic group we are when we expect reality to conform to our thoughts/feelings about it.

Who here do you see doing this? Obviously think and feel does not automatically imply expectation.

of course not.

as I said earlier, it's crucial we resolve the thinking/feeling split. That can definitely be approached without future-redemption.

my statement about egoism was a general one. It's applicable where it's applicable, independent of any attribution I may make.

and further, a very key aspect of the emotional feeling function is in keeping one's self attuned to reality. this is because our feeling functions provide direct feedback through the interface with our environment. It keeps "thinking" from going off in irrelevent future or past based illusory psychological tangents. It balances thinking in a way that prevents thinking from getting too caught up in it's justifications that just are not practical and applicable.

At the same time, acknowledging the conditioning based feeling and thinking functions, and their ego basis, enables one to move beyond them, to something more holistic, unified and synergistic. ...to the template of the awakened being, who by recognizing the illusions of fragmentation and non-whole-ness is very potent by usual standards.

to add, I am talking about the feeling function, itself. Not what presents itself as feeling function in society, and rather is distorted/denied/paralyzed unprocessed feeling expressing itself beyond our integrated management, which gives both thinking and feeling a bad name.

Bob Michael wrote:Are you saying that all men heretofore wrote and spoke in vain, TA? And would that include yourself too? And that we can be of no value in the 'resurrection' of others?

Heavens no. I was making a rather specific criticism of the tone of what George Leonard had written. It is I think a rather typical exclamation of frustration directed not at universal man but at American man. It is part of a semi-conscious and sometimes fully conscious declaration of hatred of America from some of the people who have benefited most from the American empire and attainment. That way of expressing/feeling, that way of seeing (perception as choices one makes, not so much based on 'reality') is part of culture, and certainly part of alternative culture, radical and alternative spirituality, radical politics. It is not that what is observed is wrong---because there are parts of life that are dark and ugly and, perhaps, irredeemable---it is rather that I think we need to watch out when we slip into emotional pockets that influence or dictate perception.

I suggested the character in a fictional book---Harry Haller---the product of a fairly great mind, Herman Hesse, as a counter-balance to that dark perception.

And would that include yourself too?

I am not writing for those purposes. When you say 'in vain' what do you mean? Somehow, life and consciousness emerges, who really knows how or even why? That is where the mystery lies. From out of a material mass of twisted biology there arises our human consciousness, and then it all falls apart too. The organism utterly and usually painfully dies. We have an opportunity to participate in consciousness because we exist. We have to focus, I think, on the miracle of existence.

The fact that you quote George Leonard, and that he has meaning for you, is what interests me. You are putting forth a platform in your posts, you are describing what informs your views. I am trying to understand what you mean by all this and what you intend.

Carl G wrote:Ah, okay, Bob. You were objecting only to the first and last paragraphs above, where syzygy says anyone can awaken anytime regardless of brain damage. And you actually do agree with the middle paragraph, which speaks of the need for head and heart to work together. It sounded like you were dismissing the entire quoted passage.

At last the truth of old adage ("many are called, but few are chosen") is finally fully understood here, Carl. The reason being that, due to the inherent 'fall' in the evolutionary process, man suffers from gross irreparable brain damage, and as a result only a relatively few can ever awaken or come to see the Light. Which won't be easy, nor will all those who are innately sound-minded make it. And very few men anywhere have ever fully grasped this simple, tragic fact. Hence he continues to run to and fro with all sorts of complications, theories, and ideas which are rooted primarily in the 'head', rather than in the 'heart'.

Bob M.

Talking Ass wrote:The fact that you quote George Leonard, and that he has meaning for you, is what interests me. You are putting forth a platform in your posts, you are describing what informs your views. I am trying to understand what you mean by all this and what you intend...

Let's not get stuck here TA. MANY men have said MANY things over MANY years that were of spiritually developmental value to me. That quote of Leonard's I've had in a large collection of articles, quotes, and writings for several years. And I happen to know absolutely nothing about the man other than what he expresses in that quote. And quite frankly I place little importance on the messenger, but rather I focus on the message (the Truth in it). And these articles, quotes, and even some of my own writings have helped me carry on when the nights got dark again, since there's so very little, if any, Truth, encouragement, or inspiration anywhere in the outer world in these dark and insane times. And not only that, the corrupt and degenerating world can suck even the very best of men back into its ways again quite easily. So one must surround himself with Truth. Especially in those times that he falls away from being a perfect living embodiment of it.

Probably my overall view of the U. S. would be even harsher then Leonard's. I've personally seen 68 years of deterioration in this country. And it's only going to continue to go downhill. This country is hopelessly lost and no human answers are going to help it out of the darkness.

I think I've made my intentions quite clear here in previous posts, TA. And if no one understands them, like Nietzsche, I can understand and accept that quite well. Now, one-day-at-a-time, I must continue to carry them out, which I feel I'm doing rather well at the moment.

Bob M.

Bob Michael wrote:Probably my overall view of the U. S. would be even harsher the Leonard's. I've personally seen 68 years of deterioration in this country. And it's only going to continue to go downhill. This country is hopelessly lost and no human answers are going to help it out of the darkness.

I think I've made my intentions clear here in previous posts. And if no one understands them, I can understand that quite well too. Now, one-day-at-a-time, I must continue to carry them out, which I feel I'm doing.

And that, Bob, is pretty much what I thought, and the reason why you included the quote. You have come to this forum where there are a group of different people, and widely varying opinion, and are communicating with us. All I am trying to do is understand better.

Cultures and civilizations rise and fall. If there is any terrestrial constant it is that. It doesn't sound like you will be interested in hearing, but Walter Kaufman (a philosopher who came out of Nazi Germany and is best known for his translations of and defense of Nietzsche), wrote in some essays on modernity that there is a marked tendency to see only the most negative in modern trends and to fail to see all the positive there. In any case, he wrote that no matter what it is our own work on the injustices and failings of the world that helps us be the best we can be.

People who resolutely focus on all the negative are often sort of trapped by the negative and therefore are not really living in accord with the positive.

We have just had a 2-3 post exchange and I don't get the sense that you have understood what I have written, and why. In the few weeks I have been writing on this thread, I have gotten that feeling from your responses. Doesn't mean that I don't value you or them or haven't enjoyed writing. But the question remains---but it is not one I want or expect you to answer---Just what are you hoping to achieve? What is your purpose?

All manner of people have lived and died in this material plane of existence, and so many of them have tried to understand what the problem is. Everyone has an opinion. But those opinions do not concord, often. There is a great deal of variance between opinions. And there is also a class of person who decides, no matter what, just to exist, and they find all sorts of meaning and relevance in that. You just happen to have come to a forum where (in its better moments) people talk about what they think. You are just taking your place among a wider group of persons doing the same thing.

.


-Talking Ass-
Why is it that when one suffers emotional pain, loss or devastation, the pain is acutely felt in the heart and chest? Can you rationally tell me why this is so?

-tomas-
Any of the above alter the way one literally breathes. Thought patterns aside, take a few deep breaths.

I dream'd in a dream I saw a city invincible to the attacks of the
rest of the earth.

I dreamed that was the new city of Friends,

Nothing was greater there than the quality of robust Love, it led the
rest,

It was seen every hour in the actions of the Men of that city,
And in all their looks and words.

[Walt Whitman]

I dream and hope on too!

Bob M.

Even in spite of many perversions, America has been a place where that brotherhood (invincible to the attacks from the rest of the Earth) has occured---is occuring.

Whitman in preface to Leaves of Grass:

"The Americans of all nations at any time upon the earth, have probably the fullest poetical nature. The United States themselves are essentially the greatest poem. In the history of the earth hitherto the largest and most stirring appear tame and orderly to their ampler largeness and stir. Here at last is something in the doings of man that corresponds with the broadcast doings of the day and night. Here is not merely a nation but a teeming nation of nations. Here is action untied from strings necessarily blind to particulars and details magnificently moving in vast masses. Here is the hospitality which forever indicates heroes… Here are the roughs and beards and space and ruggedness and nonchalance that the soul loves. Here the performance disdaining the trivial unapproached in the tremendous audacity of its crowds and groupings and the push of its perspective spreads with crampless and flowing breadth and showers its proflic and splendid extravagance. One sees it must indeed own the riches of the summer and winter, and need never be bankrupt while corn grows from the ground or the orchards drop apples or the bays contain fish or men beget children upon women."

I am just as susceptible as anyone to the Voices of Doom and Negativity, but in America there are endless things to be completely thankful about. It is a challenge to see things that way sometimes, to choose to see things that way, to sift perception so those things are seen. Poets like Whitman can help with that. What George Leonard wrote, on the other hand, comes from another sort of organization of perception.

We are all products of post-war liberalism which, in its worse aspects, was stupidly and arrogantly critical of many things that really deserved praise.

I do believe that syzergy was pointing to exalted Vision of 'what is spread out over the Earth but men cannot see', as was Whitman.

Talking Ass wrote: I do believe that syzergy was pointing to exalted Vision of 'what is spread out over the Earth but men cannot see', as was Whitman.

: )

The Kingdom of Heaven is within. And when we come into synergistic wholeness within, REALizing the glory that shines through us in each moment, and that it's the same glory shining in All, we come into synergistic wholeness without: syzygy. alignment. at-onement.

This is the Second Coming. The emergence of the Christ consciousness within us all.

When we come into this, we see that not only is all saved, but that it was our egoistic minds that believed fallaciously that we needed saving in the first place. We put on our lives as roles in plays. They challenge us. They interest us. sure society says that being poverty ridden, living in a basement apartment with walls covered in brown shag carpeting is not to be aspired to. But why do we incorporate such characters into our movies? All roles have beauty, glory, value, depth. That of the addict, alongside the genius. (who, in my experience are sometime the same character)...The Infinite experiences. No experience is lacking. Only our perceptions paint them that way.

let's get rid of our silly ideas of what "should be" and celebrate what is!

Only when we celebrate what Is, beyond barrier, fragmentation, separation, judgment--as Is--do we experience actual Love. True Love. The Love of All, which is beyond barrier.

the drop of water REALizes itself as ocean.

Hi TA,

First off: "Unless a man becomes totally negative he cannot create anything new." (Ludwig Feuerbach)

J. Krishnamurti held the same opinion. "Through negation comes the essence of the positive."

Nietzsche said the Superman must be predestined for the labyrinth (the abyss), and THEN IN FACT GO THERE, I would add.

Christ spoke of the need to be BORN AGAIN, if one is to ever become one with the Infinite. I have to thank David for that term. Which means to die completely to the safe, the secure, the known. To all one 'thinks' he is. Which to me means to literally go through hell, dark nights of the soul, or total nothingness or negativity.

All of the above being my opinions too, as the result of my very own personal experiences. And often very painful experiences at that.

Indeed civilizations rise and fall. And there'll be wars and rumors of wars etc. However my view of things is that a new Garden of Eden is soon going to be set up here on earth. And the 'rising and falling' along with all the human chaos and insanity is going to come to an end. Universal peace and brotherhood will finally become a real thing. Though not without the perishing of a great portion of the species also taking place.

Kaufmann? It's been a long time since I've read anything of him, and when I did my senses were not yet fully awakened as they are now. Though with what I get from what you briefly say of him, I'd consider him but another one of the all-too-many apologists for mediocrity.

It's not easy when one has climbed to the mountaintop and has discovered and experienced first-hand how wonderous and joyful human existence could be, and has to then go on and dwell in the present rottenness that it is. And then remain cheerful and positive. Which I largely do. Quite frankly I see nothing but the living dead everywhere, save for a few children and young people here and there, though with full and certain knowledge that they are fast-headed to become drowned in the rottenness. But then what choice do they really have? And sadly most will become so deeply conditioned into it that they'll 'think' their life is a heaven, whereas its really a living hell.

What am I hoping to achieve? Unending personal spiritual growth and development. Which is true wherever I happen to be. And whereby I can become a brighter and brighter light to others. Along with expressing or sharing and 'testing' my opinions and perhaps finding like-minded or like-feeling people. Though my hopes are not that high on the latter. However if some others gain from my efforts fine, if not it simply can't be helped.

I been involved quite heavily in many various internet discussion forums over the last 8+ years. And while it's helped me tremendously in both learning and spiritual development, I can't say that's the case for most people involved in them. Over those years I've only run across and handful of others who I felt were perhaps on my wavelength. Lately I've got myself involved in the new Kinfonet Krishnamurti discussion forum. Perhaps there's some hope there for meeting a few like-minded or hearted people. It has quite a few members and participants in it from all over the globe. Time will tell. And if nothing comes of it, I shall move on. I might even get banned from there again, as I was 3 or 4 times previously. Since I know full-well that a genuine saint and his heavy bag of Truths are rarely, if ever, welcomed in another man's 'church'. So whatever will be - will be. Though surely I won't get hung there anyway. Or anywhere for that matter. My wisdom and understanding exceeds that of Christ's.

Though all the while I continue to grow and flower both humanly and spiritually. And of late I'm really pleased with myself. Anger and arrogance, those long standing protecting agents or walls have at last been almost completely torn down. While Love, Truth, Wisdom, and above all, UNDERSTANDING of both my fellows and the human condition have taken their place. I can truly love my 'enemies' today and even feel for them.

Again I have no illusions that men can be truly transformed or enlightened via this type of communication. Person to person interaction I feel is a must. And a complete and radical psychic change or rebirth experience (which I've undegone) is also necessary. Which is not an easy thing.

Earlier today a man (I can't really say friend) drove me from an AA meeting to a farmer's market. On the way he shared with me that sometimes when I speak he gets goose bumps all over him. I told him that's good as it's a sign of sensitivity and that he needs to keep developing it and become more and more awake and alive to it. A young woman told me a similar thing a couple of months ago. She said she felt neat feelings inside her. Though she said her boyfriend said he didn't get any special or unusual feelings when I spoke. Which I can understand too.

So the key to it all, I'm finding, is the opening of men's and women's hearts to radical change. And my responsibility is to better and better develop the capacity to do just this. And essentially by sharing my own personal experiences of rebirth and the ensuing trials and tribulations. Along with sharing my thoughts, feelings, and experiences from my earliest memories on up to the present. While always remembering that only a few will have the capacity for real and radical change.

Actually my real goal or sense of direction in life is to build a Golden City of Light, a New Jerusalem if you will, which will become ever increasingly populated by God's or Evolution's 'chosen few' or 'elect'. Something that many others have foresaw, dreamed of, or tried to build and failed.

While it remains that: "Strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth to Life, and FEW there be that find it."

Thanks for the chats, the tests, TA and others. I just might pull up stakes here and take my opinions, as you call them, to yet another town or towns. Perhaps its best that I do. Familiarity tends to breed contempt (both ways) anyway. Especially among those who are not on the same wavelength, or at least potentially so.

Dreaming and hoping on - I remain yours truly,

Bob M.

Bob Michael wrote:Actually my real goal or sense of direction in life is to build a Golden City of Light, a New Jerusalem if you will, which will become ever increasingly populated by God's or Evolution's 'chosen few' or 'elect'. Something that many others have foresaw, dreamed of, or tried to build and failed.

awesome.

keep up the great work, my friend.

let us acknowledge the fragmentation of words on a page, and how they cannot fully impart the beautiful spirit beyond. Those who work in Love and for the Truth work together, however far apart.



*cue Animus* and some Unrest for 'balance'........

Well, in any case, you know where to find me.

Oh I'm not complaining, really. My stable is dry and comfortable, except when the chill California fog rolls in. But even then, there is still the smell of grass in the fields, a pungent smell of little flowers and aromatic herbs with crystalline drops of sap erupting from the pores of intense green leaves. In the morning I awaken to the sound of field mice feeding on my oats. But I don't mind. They scamper in and out of the feed trough, paranoid black-eyed thieves, afraid of me I suppose, but really I am content to share with them what I have. Sunrise comes and the songbirds begin to sing, a golden light appears over the treetops, and this first warm light strikes my hide and warms my assy soul. A few cats appear later, a yellow one and a black and white one, hunting mice, and often they leave with a victim in their mouths, hurrying back to feed their litter. I hear voices, laughter from the reformatory. The clatter of pans in the kitchen, the Black cook Juanita's husky voice. Life goes on, life moves, exalts, crescendos, goes quiet, fades, resurges---resurrects. The sun rises again, 'lke a pheonix from the ashes, wings across the blue'. And I remain here, watching, waiting.

Je vie, j'attend.

The days unfurl before me in never-ending procession. Sometimes I think I'll never die, that I'll be here forever. The generations will come and go and I, Bacchus, irrelevant melodramatic ass, will remain. But I know that I will soon pass away. Someday, some wandering boys, laughing and boisterous, exploring every nook and cranny and lifting up rocks, playing and laughing while the diamond sun beams down, will find my bones, perhaps a tuft of my hide, a tooth. Me! That will be all that's left of me. If I could though, I'd wish to become a part of the wind, and I'd blow over the Earth for eternity! I would not blow fiercely, though I know someone must. I'd blow gently. I'd blow lightly upon the good of the good souls who wander here.

It's at night that my whole being soars. No one knows my secret, shhhhhh. I back out of my stall and nudge the rear door of the stables open, the hinge creaks and would give me away were it not that the stable-keep's room is attached to the girl's reformatory building and he's too far away to hear. Anyway, he is in a narcotic sleep, hypnotized by his possessive TV God who lords over him, flickering mad colors on his sleeping body. I open the back door and slide through. And I'm a free ass, free to roam the foothills overlooking the insanely beautiful silver and blue-black waters of the Pacific Ocean as the moon rises, millions of shimmering moon-smiles when the waves are calm.

Up at the crest of the hill where I stand to watch the glories of the world shift and change before me, owls careen in winds carrying the smell of pine sap and salty breeze from the beach. On some blessed nights the air is warm and sweet, alive with life and gentle carresses. On moonless nights, I turn my head up to see the long spread of the Milky Way, those knotted, starry clusters of glowing sparkle standing out against the black loneliness of forever space. Down the hill I hear the mournful cry of a nighthawk and as always the humming and chiming of crickets, maternal ululation. That's when I am at my best, and the pain of life can't even get to me, there is too much magnificence. And when I am there, I sing an asses song. Sillhouetted against the moon and the craggly pines, touched by salty breezes, I sing.

Fool of an ass that I am.

---Bacchus

[An anti-climactic note, only because it is interesting. The phrase 'familiarity breeds contempt' refers not to knowing people or allowing oneself to be known---a thing that often makes life really worth living---but to the use of the familiar mode of address when the formal mode is required, or when someone thinks it is. We dropped the familiar mode from English quite some time ago, I have never been able to discover why. (The 'thee' the 'thy' and the 'thine'). Now, we always speak to each other in the formal mode: you. Technically, we have no good reason to feel contempt for one another.]

PS: A picture to remember me by.

"Earth needs a place where men can live away from all national rivalries, social conventions, self-contradictory moralities and contending religions; a place where human beings, freed from all slavery of the past, can devote themselves wholly to the discovery and practice of the Divine Consciousness that is seeking to manifest itself."

'The Mother' (Sri Aurobindo's sidekick)

Bob M.

You're not leaving are you Talking Ass? The photo to remember you by seems so sudden!

Where would I go?! Where IS there to go? No, I'll be here, day after day, week after week, year after year, eon after eon, 'going to and fro on the earth, and walking up and down upon it'.

What Christianity waits for, as its final apologetic and justification to the world, is the founding of a City which shall be in visible reality a City of God. People do not dispute that religion is in the Church. What is now wanted is to let them see it in the City. One Christian City, one City in any part of the earth, whose citizens from the greatest to the humblest lived in the SPIRIT of Christ, where religion had overflowed the Churches and passed into
the streets, inundating every house and workshop, and permeating the whole social and commercial life - one such Christian City would seal the redemption of the world.

Some such City is what John saw in his dream. Whatever reference we may find there to a world to come, is it not equally lawful to seek the scene upon this present world? John saw his City 'descending out of Heaven'. It was, moreover, no strange apparition, but a City which he knew. It was Jerusalem, a new 'Jerusalem' (the holy City).

[Henry Drummond - 'The City Without a Church' - 1892]

Bob M.