How to speak to children

Diebert van Rhijn · Post by **Diebert van Rhijn** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:34 pm

David Quinn wrote:Affection itself is degrading.

But degradation of what exactly? Truth? Individualism? Certainly not the development of life.

Diebert van Rhijn · Post by **Diebert van Rhijn** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:58 pm

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote: Even if one wishes to engage in sweet talk and any benefits they might receive from it from a person close to them, it would be wrong to engage in such behavior in public because it can alter others' attitudes toward that person into a less serious light.

Well, yeah, our animal nature always has been a source of shame. We rather keep it out of sight and disapprove of public display of anything that reminds of our inner animal or child. We've grown beyond it, right?

An additional factor is that the signals contained in consensual sweet talk are very specifically constructed for the persons involved. If others not part of that little circle are exposed to it, the reaction is often like being offended or annoyed. That's because the signal is loud and clear picked up by the subconscious but doesn't compute at all. It's not 'for us'. It's like being shouted at through a megaphone in a foreign language. Totally 'wrong'.

Elizabeth wrote: The more baby-ish the name, the more degrading - almost definitively. The infantile stage is the most degrading stage of human development. (...) Every stage of development after that is an upgrade - therefore referencing an earlier stage of development is downgrading, or degrading.

I see them all as different layers of the human 'operating system'. Some communications are happening on deeper layers that have been build upon by more outer, refined and crystallized layers. But I don't see any reason to see it as upgrade. Foundation, basement, floors, roof should be ideally aligned and maintained but all have different functions.

A prime example is the 'infantile' world of advertisements. The makers are no children, they know exactly how to construct the message to be heard, because they have some knowledge of the receptiveness of certain deeper layers. And these layers cannot just be left behind by conscious decisions, if even possible, without collapsing the whole structure, including the physical. One is free to explore them though to see what can be done.

Elizabeth Isabelle · Post by **Elizabeth Isabelle** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:04 am

David Quinn wrote:Affection itself is degrading.

Only to one who is above affection. Similarly, it is not degrading to treat a baby like a baby - it is appropriate. On the other end, if one were to slip out of perfect conciousness for a moment, a bit of affection would essentially be an appropriate kick in the pants to point out where they really are. In between the two, it can be a supportive measure, or a call for a supportive measure by someone with an actual need for it.
.

David Quinn · Post by **David Quinn** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:37 am

Diebert wrote:

DQ: Affection itself is degrading.

DvR: But degradation of what exactly? Truth? Individualism? Certainly not the development of life.

True. I was making my comment in the context of adults. Children need affection from their parents and others to help them develop into strong, self-reliant, confident adults. It only becomes a worry when, as adults, they continue to crave that affection. In effect, they are saying that they want to remain in babyhood. Or that they are too damaged to grow into adulthood.

-

Elizabeth Isabelle · Post by **Elizabeth Isabelle** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:19 am

David Quinn wrote:Children need affection from their parents and others to help them develop into strong, self-reliant, confident adults. It only becomes a worry when, as adults, they continue to crave that affection. In effect, they are saying that they want to remain in babyhood. Or that they are too damaged to grow into adulthood.

What of the children who do not get affection? I would say these children would have a deficit when they grow to be adults, but I would not say they are too damaged to get there. Neither would I say they don't want to grow up. Rather the rearing of the adult child must be completed - and in a great part by the adult child himself or herself - in order to reach true adulthood.

For those in need of late-stage rearing, I would add the children who do not get enough discipline, or any of the other things that children need in correct measure. Once a child is an adult though - whether truly in adulthood or not - it is that individual's responsibility to finish raising themselves. They may need guidance from others, and from books, but the work is their own to do.
.

Diebert van Rhijn · Post by **Diebert van Rhijn** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:53 am

David Quinn wrote:Children need affection from their parents and others to help them develop into strong, self-reliant, confident adults. It only becomes a worry when, as adults, they continue to crave that affection. In effect, they are saying that they want to remain in babyhood. Or that they are too damaged to grow into adulthood.

The craving appears to be more the problem here than the affection itself. The damage you mention could be for example some deeply ingrained discomfort or unease.

In my view affection seems to be connected not just with babyhood but with relating to animals as well all people, including adults; creating connections with them. The stronger the connection the more 'childish' the communication would become because one starts using parts of the brain that just work with that sort of communication, closer to animal, instinctive mechanisms. Nevertheless highly effective for its purpose.

But it should be obvious that creating strong connections with others, any bonding, brings about a host of other possible problems when the goal is an individual path realizing truth. Simply because it's a chain by definition, even while covered in velvet and not felt as one.

Jamesh · Post by **Jamesh** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 1:53 pm

But it should be obvious that creating strong connections with others, any bonding, brings about a host of other possible problems when the goal is an individual path realizing truth

Stop being idiots, you dudes. Truth offers nothing.

You all talk as if truth is above something - it is not.

Shahrazad · Post by **Shahrazad** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 2:44 pm

Why this sudden change, Jimbo?
.

Jamesh · Post by **Jamesh** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:15 pm

I guess I must be going through a nilihilistic crisis. I'm probably closer to depression than anything else. Very litttle interests me nowadays, so I am struggling to find enjoyment.

To me nihilism is the COMPLETE truth, and anything that is not is mere passing emotion or reaction from memory. I differ from the QRS as I see a love of truth as just emotional bullshit - it is just a desire to be a robot-guru - Dr Spocks.

I feel as if I know all that I need to know about reality and as such this forum does not offer me anything any more. Why bother when there is nothing left to learn that is of any excitement. I'm only here because of a general disinterest in achievement (whats the point!), and historically this place has relieved my boredom.

Perhaps if some new faces came along I might get interested again, but at present everything is yeah, yeah, blabber on you nutcases.

Elizabeth Isabelle · Post by **Elizabeth Isabelle** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:35 pm

Jamesh wrote: this forum does not offer me anything any more.

It must offer you something, or you wouldn't be here.

Jamesh wrote:I'm only here because of a general disinterest in achievement (whats the point!), and historically this place has relieved my boredom.

So it offers you hope of relief of boredom. Funny that... a nihilist with hope.

Jamesh wrote:Perhaps if some new faces came along I might get interested again, but at present everything is yeah, yeah, blabber on you nutcases.

Well, you chased the last one off by saying you were stalking her.

Just kidding - it wasn't just that.
.

Shahrazad · Post by **Shahrazad** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:42 pm

Jimbo,

Nihilism is not so bad once you realize that life can still be quite enjoyable. But you can't realize that until you pull out of the down mood.

I'm only here because of a general disinterest in achievement (whats the point!), and historically this place has relieved my boredom.

If you ever find a cyber place that challenges your mind and relieves your boredom (other than this one), please be a nice person and let me know.

.

Shahrazad · Post by **Shahrazad** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:48 pm

E,

So it offers you hope of relief of boredom. Funny that... a nihilist with hope.

I've never understood why people think that nihilism entails a bad attitude. Can you please explain that to me? Is it that people want a god-given purpose for their lives?

.

Elizabeth Isabelle · Post by **Elizabeth Isabelle** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 3:54 pm

Shahrazad wrote:Can you please explain that to me?

I was using a stereotype as part of a good-natured jab at Jim to cheer him up. We all know he likes a good fight.
.

Dan Rowden · Post by **Dan Rowden** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 4:20 pm

Jamesh wrote:I feel as if I know all that I need to know about reality and as such this forum does not offer me anything any more.

Why bother when there is nothing left to learn that is of any excitement. I'm only here because of a general disinterest in achievement (whats the point!), and historically this place has relieved my boredom.

If the first statement were true, there'd be no need of the second. Because the second is true, the first is a load of codswallap.

Shahrazad · Post by **Shahrazad** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 4:21 pm

Damn
.

Dan Rowden · Post by **Dan Rowden** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 4:21 pm

Shahrazad wrote:Jimbo,

Nihilism is not so bad once you realize that life can still be quite enjoyable. But you can't realize that until you pull out of the down mood.

There's no such thing as nihilism; it's impossible.

Shahrazad · Post by **Shahrazad** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 4:24 pm

Why would you say that?

Dan Rowden · Post by **Dan Rowden** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 4:30 pm

Because it's not possible to not value things. Every choice we make comes from such valuations. Though, you may be using a sense of "nihilism" that is different to what I'm inferring.

Shahrazad · Post by **Shahrazad** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 4:40 pm

I'm using it in the sense that nothing at all matters, and that we are not born with a purpose. It doesn't mean we can't make our own.

.

Dan Rowden · Post by **Dan Rowden** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:00 pm

So, nihilism is just another word for "real".....

Shahrazad · Post by **Shahrazad** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:20 pm

Why real?

Unidian · Post by **Unidian** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:37 pm

One can have a certain set of values without necessarily believing that values matter for any particular reason other than one's own self-satisfaction. This is similar to what I consider "nihilism," and although I don't exactly subscribe to it, I can see a valid basis for it.

Kelly Jones · Post by **Kelly Jones** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:06 pm

I don't believe that affection and nurturing are actually that important in child-rearing. They're incentive-like tools to attract a child to obey a maturity demand, used in concert with control and rational communication. If the parent is deeply conscious of how the child is developing, and its needs and moods, then these tools are not so necessary. The child and parent are more harmonious, because the parent is sensitive.

"When the Tao is lost, there is goodness.
When goodness is lost, there is kindness.
When kindness is lost, there is justice.
When justice is lost, there is ritual.
Now ritual is the husk of faith and loyalty, the beginning of confusion.
Knowledge of the future is only a flowery trapping of Tao.
It is the beginning of folly."

-

Diebert van Rhijn · Post by **Diebert van Rhijn** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:38 pm

Jamesh wrote: Stop being idiots, you dudes. Truth offers nothing.

You all talk as if truth is above something - it is not.

Young fool.... only now, at the end, do you understand. Your feeble skills are no match for the power of the dark side! You have paid the price for your lack of vision!

Emperor Palpatine

Diebert van Rhijn · Post by **Diebert van Rhijn** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:44 pm

Kelly Jones wrote: If the parent is deeply conscious of how the child is developing, and its needs and moods, then these tools are not so necessary. The child and parent are more harmonious, because the parent is sensitive.

A noble idealism but the harsh truth is that humans are born as very fearful animals. Many succeed early on in masking through pacification but only a few become truly fearless, only after much trial and error - the initiation into real adulthood.