GENIUS FORUMS

Carl G wrote:On the contrary, Gurdjieff did "prepare a nucleus of people capable responding to the demand which will arise." It is the demand that has not (or not yet) arisen. The teaching is not dead, and if it is crystallized, so much the better. The teaching is about crystallization (Christalization). I don't know what you mean by 'living Master' but there have been and are many qualified teachers leading groups today. I can personally attest that it is not "totally impotent."

Again, each of us must come to our own understanding relative to our own individual level of spiritual growth and perfection. The Gurdjieff 'Christalization', as you put it, is every bit as dead as Christendom is ("the blind leading the blind"). Probably even more so as the 'teaching' has been essentially intellectualized deeply into the mud. And also because it was never a complete and correct teaching in the first place. A living Master would be someone who has the full deck of cards firmly in his grip, or is in perfect companionship with the 'Infinite'.

Carl G wrote:Ignorance is bliss. The machines are blessed.

No, I am 'blessed'. And all the dark nights of the soul, change, and suffering were all worthwhile. The bliss of the ignorant is not bliss at all, but rather such unfortunate souls live but little more than lives of quiet desperation. While certainly never knowing or experiencing the many joys and rewards of Love. The greatest of gifts or blessings.

Bob M.

With all respects, I feel quite strongly that no one really has an idea of the purpose of so-called 'spirituality'. True, I am not referring to theorists and those who come up with intricate and convincing word-manifestos, and more to people in daily, common life where spiritual principals are applied and lived. It seems to me that a large percentage of what you write, and the quotes you include, are part and parcel of the 'convincing word manifesto' category, but most of this material, in my experience, is stuff that people write and read...and then (there is no other option really) go on to live their very imperfect terrestrial lives, which process is never, ever perfect nor can it be. We can only live in a perfect world in the imagination-construct of our mind and in the upper reaches of imaginal, abstract thought. 'Where the rubber hits the road' is where people try to live in accord with their values and where, of course, everything becomes problematical.

And also because it was never a complete and correct teaching in the first place. A living Master would be someone who has the full deck of cards firmly in his grip, or is in perfect companionship with the 'Infinite'.

Hmmm. I have gotten the impression that you like to get wrapped up in Christian arcana. It is a quite laden idea to imply there is some sort of 'complete teaching' and, one guesses, you might yourself write some kind of apocrypha that will express it. Yet, what you write always stays within the abstract and the imaginal. I suspect that this sort of expression serves, more than anything, as a general inspiration to those who resonate with it, and also a way to spiritually disassociate themselves from the lowly masses and the automatons, the dead machines walking around out there. I only say that when you look at the people who were attracted to the Gurdjieff circle, just as any people who follow an interesting and dynamic personality, they maybe did this or they maybe did that, but it was still just a life of striving, of success and failure, just like anyone. What is the difference? What is real spirituality? Why, for what purpose?

Talking Ass wrote:What is the difference? What is real spirituality? Why, for what purpose?

To evolve oneself, to transform to a higher plane of existence, so to serve in greater ways the Creator, to contribute in ever greater ways to the Creation.

Bob Michael wrote:Again, each of us must come to our own understanding relative to our own individual level of spiritual growth and perfection.

Hallelujah.

The Gurdjieff 'Christalization', as you put it, is every bit as dead as Christendom is ("the blind leading the blind").

They are not, they are alive in me, and in others. You are a false prophet (of doom).

Probably even more so as the 'teaching' has been essentially intellectualized deeply into the mud.

It has for some, and not for others. From what perspective do you speak, from having been part of one excessively intellectualized group?

And also because it was never a complete and correct teaching in the first place. A living Master would be someone who has the full deck of cards firmly in his grip, or is in perfect companionship with the 'Infinite'.

Are there any such Masters alive today, in your opinion? Have there ever been? Who? Are you one?

Carl G wrote:Ignorance is bliss. The machines are blessed.

No, I am 'blessed'. And all the dark nights of the soul, change, and suffering were all worthwhile.

Blessed is he who has a soul (who has attained the transformation), blessed is he who has none (who is not troubled to improve himself), but woe and grief to he who has it in embryo (who is in the process of the "dark nights, change and (conscious) suffering").

The bliss of the ignorant is not bliss at all, but rather such unfortunate souls live but little more than lives of quiet desperation. While certainly never knowing or experiencing the many joys and rewards of Love. The greatest of gifts or blessings.

This is a combination of hype, dogma, and moral judgment. The fact is that many simple people do not suffer excessively, certainly not to the degree of someone actually trying to transform himself. Many do have satisfactory experiences of love. You would do well to avoid spiritual aloofness and general prejudice towards these people.

Talking Ass wrote:Hmmm. I have gotten the impression that you like to get wrapped up in Christian arcana. It is a quite laden idea to imply there is some sort of 'complete teaching' and, one guesses, you might yourself write some kind of apocrypha that will express it. Yet, what you write always stays within the abstract and the imaginal. I suspect that this sort of expression serves, more than anything, as a general inspiration to those who resonate with it, and also a way to spiritually disassociate themselves from the lowly masses and the automatons, the dead machines walking around out there. I only say that when you look at the people who were attracted to the Gurdjieff circle, just as any people who follow an interesting and dynamic personality, they maybe did this or they maybe did that, but it was still just a life of striving, of success and failure, just like anyone. What is the difference? What is real spirituality? Why, for what purpose?

Quite frankly the Perennial Philosophy or Teachings and even fundamental Christianity are esoteric in nature. And simply because only a relatively few people are capable of truly and fully grasping, understanding, developing, and living their basic principles. Therefore a body or a nucleus of pioneering people who have the innate capacity for undergoing a radical transformation of consciousness or a genuine rebirth experience must be formed somewhere away from the beaten path. Away from the collective consciousness of mankind with its ever increasing ignorance, vulgarity, violence, and madness. It will be lead by a Master of the long journey of trials and tribulations. A radiant living embodiment of both Truth and Love. One might call this enterprise a City of Light or a New Jerusalem, if you will. Perhaps Biblical Christianity will soon be perfectly playing itself out afterall. Though surely not within the framework of fallen, ever-decaying, and unregenerate Christendom. Time alone will tell. One wonders too where this place might be best located. In order that it would survive a global nuclear holocaust (or "the abomination that maketh [quite] desolate").

Regarding my study of Gurdjieff and his 'circle', I often mused over Ouspensky's observation that he felt Gurdjieff left the wrong kind of people into his schools. I think there was a lot of truth in this view. Seems his need for followers and supporters along with his dependencies on alcohol and tobacco negatively affected his capacity for discernment, clear thinking, and right direction.

I like Carl's description of real spirituality. I would add that true spirituality is also to LIVE FULLY in the solution. Which is to live with intense and exhilarating feelings of aliveness.

"Exuberance is beauty." (William Blake)

"Only joy can convert [others] to joy." (Bernard Enginger)

"One man's perfection still can save the world." (Sri Aurobindo)

Bob M.

I like Carl's description of real spirituality. I would add that true spirituality is also to LIVE FULLY in the solution. Which is to live with intense and exhilarating feelings of aliveness.

As a juvenile. Real spirituality is going through pain, unending, relentless pain as was your souls mission in the material realm.

prince wrote:

I like Carl's description of real spirituality. I would add that true spirituality is also to LIVE FULLY in the solution. Which is to live with intense and exhilarating feelings of aliveness.

Real spirituality is going through pain, unending, relentless pain

I've come across this meme more than once, and it strikes me as being an attempt to make a virtue out of weakness.

Bob Michael wrote:"One man's perfection still can save the world." (Sri Aurobindo).

"Everywhere on earth, at this moment, within the new spiritual atmosphere created by the appearance of the idea of evolution, there float--in a state of extreme mutual sensitivity--the two essential components of the Ultra-human, love of God and faith in the world. Everywhere these two components are 'in the air': generally, however, they are not strong enough, both at the same time, to combine with one another in one and the same subject. In me, by pure chance (temperament, education, environment) the proportion of each happens to be favorable, and they fuse together spontaneously. The fusion of the two is still not strong enough to spread explosively, but even so it is enough to show that such an explosion is possible, and that sooner or later the chain reaction will get under way. It is one more proof that if the Truth appears once in one single mind, that is enough to ensure that nothing can ever prevent it from spreading to everything and setting it ablaze." (Teilhard de Chardin)


"The Victory must be won once, in one body. When one man has won that Victory, it will be a victory for all mankind and in all the worlds."

"The Victory must only be won once. One glorious body - one body must break the iron law for all bodies. And all men must collaborate to achieve that one Victory. The strategic difficulty of the transformation is fully before us. If earth calls and the Supreme answers, the hour can be even now." (Sri Aurobindo)

Bob M.

Carl G wrote: You are a false prophet (of doom).

Yes, doom is very much a part of the master plan, but you fail to see the flip side of the coin. The joy, the enthusiasm, the hope I also have for the species.

Carl G wrote:It has for some, and not for others. From what perspective do you speak?

From the mountain-top. And on the way up I've developed, among many other things a keen 'feel' for the difference between head-talk and heart-speak.

Carl G wrote:Are there any such Masters alive today, in your opinion? Have there ever been? Who? Are you one?

There are some, though they are still pretty well in embryo. I think J. Krishnamurti came the closest in recent times to having had the full deck. Though as time went on he unfortunately got lost out in left field as did so many others. I personally remain a hopeful work in progress (one-day-at-a-time).

Carl G wrote:This is a combination of hype, dogma, and moral judgment. The fact is that many simple people do not suffer excessively, certainly not to the degree of someone actually trying to transform himself. Many do have satisfactory experiences of love.

People who have the capacity to truly and fully Love life, themselves, and all others are as rare as genuinely enlightened souls are.

Carl G wrote:You would do well to avoid spiritual aloofness and general prejudice towards these people.

My views are simply shared observations. Though you are correct in that the 'nucleus' should and will focus on itself and not engage in any outside controversy or conflict.

Bob M.

prince wrote:As a juvenile. Real spirituality is going through pain, unending, relentless pain as was your souls mission in the material realm.

Hi prince,

Indeed, no pain - no gain. Or one might say "pain/suffering is the touchstone of spiritual growth." Though at the end of the tunnel lies much peace and joy. Along again with intense and exhilarating (and inexpressible) feelings of aliveness (and wholeness or completeness).

Bob M.

Bob Michael wrote:

Carl G wrote: You are a false prophet (of doom).

Yes, doom is very much a part of the master plan, but you fail to see the flip side of the coin. The joy, the enthusiasm, the hope I also have for the species.

Now you assert that I fail to see, but you have no proof. I do not fail to see. I would like you to speak more accurately about what you know and what you do not know.

You are still the prophet of doom who said "The Gurdjieff 'Christalization'... is every bit as dead as Christendom is ("the blind leading the blind")." I refuted that with "they are alive in me". I gave you evidence that they are not dead. Can you refute this? If not, stop making those generalizations.

Carl G wrote:It has for some, and not for others. From what perspective do you speak?

From the mountain-top. And on the way up I've developed, among many other things a keen 'feel' for the difference between head-talk and heart-speak.

Okay, so you are on the mountain top, is this the same as having the full deck? And from there, again ask you, from what perspective do you speak (what is this "keen feel" based upon, simply your readings in books, or your intuition)? Is the entirety of the Gurdjieff work in all its manifestations today -- or even back when G was alive -- only head-talk? Is heart-speak better than head-talk? Why, if each is incomplete? What of body-talk? And what of Christianity, is it also all head-talk?

Carl G wrote:Are there any such Masters alive today, in your opinion? Have there ever been? Who? Are you one?

There are some, though they are still pretty well in embryo. I think J. Krishnamurti came the closest in recent times to having had the full deck. Though as time went on he unfortunately got lost out in left field as did so many others. I personally remain a hopeful work in progress (one-day-at-a-time).

By your answer I take it you believe there are no such persons and have never been any (though you put yourself on "the mountain top").

Carl G wrote:This is a combination of hype, dogma, and moral judgment. The fact is that many simple people do not suffer excessively, certainly not to the degree of someone actually trying to transform himself. Many do have satisfactory experiences of love.

People who have the capacity to truly and fully Love life, themselves, and all others are as rare as genuinely enlightened souls are.

Now, rather than address my point about simple people you preach further about the virtues you extol.

It is a given that the rare person is rare.

Carl G wrote:Now, rather than address my point about simple people you preach further about the virtues you extol.

"Two men looked out through prison bars - one saw mud, the other saw stars." (A. U.)

I have nothing further here, Carl. There's nothing to prove, nothing to win. I have the prize - the 'gold'. The work ahead is to touch and open men's hearts to radical change. To a new and wonderful manner of living that's full of 'virtue' and its many rewards. Which can't be done via endless argument or debate. All the while letting those who are satisfied with their pocket change be who and what they are, or can only presently be.

Bob M.

One must be reborn or born again. This being in the context of having a radical shift or fall back in consciousness take place in the person. Similarly to what J. Krishnamurti too promoted, however unfortunately only half-heartedly as time went on.

He must then completely detach himself from the old, the safe, the familiar, the mediocre in order to begin the new life. One in which the old falsely-conditioned self dies or falls away. (Luke 18: 29-30)

Then there's the need for soul searching and repentance, thereby clearing up the wreckage of one's past. Which is vital in order to come to fully experience a brand new life. One that's free of all conflict and thereby full of harmony and genuine peace of mind.

And then there's the need for the never ending purification of the mind functioning in action on the firing line of life. Which Paul put rather well and simply in Romans 12:2 as follows:

"And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God."

The above is from your post on the 3rd page of this thread. As much as I find the ideas interesting, so far you deal with them almost exclusively in the abstract. Ye you say that you want to have an effect on men, awaken them, etc. As I see things, to have an effect on people, you have to translate abstractions and generalisms (truisms) down into the facts of terrestrial life.

In my case, I have heard all this lingo and grandiosity just about all my whole life. People who launch into super-spiritual trips, get new wardrobes, new interior decoration (both in their homes and in their image-management), a new inflection in their voices, new friends, etc., etc. Just repeating all this stuff doesn't mean a great deal, and to be truthful it can't really influence people, which is what you seem to want to do. In the realm of writing, either fiction or non-fiction, the stories we tell have to be translated down to day-to-day experiences.

Many people, at one time or another, have had experiences like the 'rebirth' you refer to. But there are so many different levels to it. One can't really be sure what you are referring to or even if you make reference to yourself. In order for your story to have the effect you want, you'd have to talk more about yourself. Otherwise it just remains super-spiritual rap, which we have all heard for so long.

When you say to detach from the old, etc., what do you mean? Leave one's natal country? Get rid of all one's old friends and associations? Sell everything and give it to the poor and 'follow Christ'? You say that you must leave the 'mediocre', but for what? What is this new life and how does it take shape?

The 'soul-searching and repentance' could be understood in a few different ways, but it is likely intelligible to many, yet what do you mean? In a specific sense? You refer to AA---do you mean 'making amends'? Then, you mention 'One that's free of all conflict and thereby full of harmony and genuine peace of mind', and many people can relate to this, I think. But how can one be 100% free of all conflict? You are speaking in superlatives. I don't think it is possible to be free of conflicts nor is it necessarily desirable. It is more what we do with our conflicts, how we deal with them. The biblical Jesus had a huge and vast conflict, but, according to the story, he had a dynamic way of dealing with his conflicts. Also, to live as you (vaguely) propose will put one in conflict, directly, with all that you oppose, all that is 'dead' and machine-like, yet you don't seem to acknowledge this.

I am not opposed to your mission, though I do think you seek to present it in abstract and grandiose terms. In my case, the only stories that have relevance for me are the 'small stories' of people who manage, usually in small ways, to live in accord with their values. You seem to feel, though, that you will save the world from nuclear apocalypse (et cetera) and so establish your mission on a pretty exalted platform. To each his own I guess.

The work ahead is to touch and open men's hearts to radical change. To a new and wonderful manner of living that's full of 'virtue' and its many rewards. Which can't be done via argument or debate.

Okay, then how is it done? Please, I'd rather not receive a list of fine quotes but more a solid description of what you do or intend to do. How do you reach people? How do you get through to them? By posting on the internet? What exactly is it that 'touches men's hearts'? You say 'it' can't be done by argument or debate, which I also feel is true if it is typical argument or debate, but there is another style of 'argument' or 'debate' that is atypical. Again, if you refer to the Biblical Jesus what we see is a man willing to mix it up with people, to appear in their midst, to confront them. In a way what you say ISN'T true, because to reach people you actually have to enter into conflict with them. 'To get someone out of a hole you have to be willing to get a little dirty', said some Rabbi.

Talking Ass wrote:Okay, then how is it done? Please, I'd rather not receive a list of fine quotes but more a solid description of what you do or intend to do. How do you reach people? How do you get through to them? By posting on the internet? What exactly is it that 'touches men's hearts'? You say 'it' can't be done by argument or debate, which I also feel is true if it is typical argument or debate, but there is another style of 'argument' or 'debate' that is atypical. Again, if you refer to the Biblical Jesus what we see is a man willing to mix it up with people, to appear in their midst, to confront them. In a way what you say ISN'T true, because to reach people you actually have to enter into conflict with them. 'To get someone out of a hole you have to be willing to get a little dirty', said some Rabbi.

Wow! You really got the wheels spinning here TA. Thanks for the test. Though a response shall take a little time and meditation. I'm also running out of libraries. I'm presently at number 4 for the day. Plus I got 2 AA meetings under my belt for the day. So I'll work on it at home tonight. Although I'll take time to correct the Rabbi's line here as follows:

To (help) get someone out of a hole (of which there can be many along life's way) one has to have been in those same holes himself and then successfully freed himself from those holes. Which is a big reason for the failure of virtually all of the heretofore 'masters'. As again (having had a glimpse or two of the Kingdom), they were all-too-quick to run front and center with the 'good news' without having been through life's experiential school of hard knocks. As are those they are trying to 'save'. Nor did they have the 'right teaching' package as a result. Not to also ponder on how many of them were cowardly celibates and irresponsible feather-bedders.

Bob M.

Bob Michael wrote:

Carl G wrote:Now, rather than address my point about simple people you preach further about the virtues you extol.

"Two men looked out through prison bars - one saw mud, the other saw stars." (A. U.)

I have nothing further here, Carl. There's nothing to prove, nothing to win. I have the prize - the 'gold'. The work ahead is to touch and open men's hearts to radical change. To a new and wonderful manner of living that's full of 'virtue' and its many rewards. Which can't be done via endless argument or debate. All the while letting those who are satisfied with their pocket change be who and what they are, or can only presently be.

So, basically you are a preacher. Got it. Thanks.

arek4321 wrote:The way I see it, religion is just a "teddy-bear" for adults. People believe blindly without questioning, which is exactly how movements like Nazi-ism began. Believe what you are told, ask no questions. Religion is just something to give people comfort, so that they can sleep every night. Because the idea that there is no "great, omnipotent being" is just too much of a mental burden for some people, and they can't live with the fact knowing that everything is up to them. I believe religion was invented by several of the social elite centuries ago, to make people behave the way the elite want them to. What better way to make people behave than to make them believe if they live good lives, they get a false reward and at the same time if they do not choose to follow it, there will be dire consequences in the form of "eternal torture in the depths of hell". Just think about how many human accomplishments have been credited to "God". Wrong, that was all you, the human who started and finished the great accomplishment, stop giving some invisible man credit for everything you do. Also, more people have been tortured and killed in the name of religion than anything else. Assuming for a second that religion wasn't made for that purpose, even if there was a "God" his message has been greatly skewed and corrupted many times over due to "organized Christianity". Even if at first it had noble beginnings, the Vatican and other similarly led groups, ruined it even more.

Equating religion to Nazism is intellectually lazy. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Hitler became an atheist and hated religion so much that he exterminated a large chunk of religious people in Europe. Using your logic, I may as well say atheism exterminated 6 million Jews. Without religion, Hitler lost the guilt of conscience. And without that guilt, he was able to perform unspeakable deeds. History has proven that it is the other way around: atheists feel no guilt and remorse for their atrocious acts.

Carl G wrote:So, basically you are a preacher. Got it. Thanks.

I am many things. Save for being a servant of the world. And my greatest joy is seeing others too becoming all that they can possibly be and focusing all my time and energies in that direction.

Bob M.

Talking Ass wrote: As much as I find the ideas interesting, so far you deal with them almost exclusively in the abstract. Ye you say that you want to have an effect on men, awaken them, etc. As I see things, to have an effect on people, you have to translate abstractions and generalisms (truisms) down into the facts of terrestrial life.

Yes, I've said previously that we help others best by sharing with them our own personal experiences of transformation. "What we used to be like, what happened, and what we are like now." And I realize that I've not done all that much of this herein. Primarily because I feel that in order for such communication to be truly effective it must take place in a 'live' person to person basis. Though too I feel that some 'sleepers' and perhaps some semi-awakened others who've broken partially through the bondage of self herein may have gained from my offerings as such. Then again perhaps they are largely or even totally given in vain and I'm the only beneficiary of my efforts. Talking to deaf ears is quite the norm for those who are truly awakened or enlightened. Though quite frankly my ears were too rendered quite deaf by all the noise, static, and clammer of our mad world for quite some time. Though the innate capacity for 'hearing' was always there. Which is not the case with most.

Talking Ass wrote:In my case, I have heard all this lingo and grandiosity just about all my whole life. People who launch into super-spiritual trips, get new wardrobes, new interior decoration (both in their homes and in their image-management), a new inflection in their voices, new friends, etc., etc. Just repeating all this stuff doesn't mean a great deal, and to be truthful it can't really influence people, which is what you seem to want to do. In the realm of writing, either fiction or non-fiction, the stories we tell have to be translated down to day-to-day experiences.

Having heard this lingo and grandiousity your whole life, why haven't you tossed it all aside and searched elsewhere (and leaving no stones unturned) for the real, the true, or that which might make you whole, happy, and content? Seems the universal human condition is to see the 'moat' (and often very rightly) in others while failing to look at the 'beam' in ourselves. Just as it was some two thousand years ago. All the outward ingredients necessary for genuine self-discovery/self-realization are available to you just are they are to myself and everyone else. Perhaps the vital inner ingredients (sensitivity, passion, and the courage for Truth and change) are unfortunately not there, as is the case with most. Without which there'll be no new being under any circumstances. Or maybe, like others, since our world presently is so hopelessly dark, you're in need of a 'teacher' or 'mirror' who's got the right stuff? Along with a sane environment wherein a geniune rebirth and flowering can effectively take place. Granted in these last days especially there are so very few shining examples anywhere worth listening to or emulating. So a true spiritual journeyman must be prepared to be a pioneering loner, at least for a time. Maybe even for good.

Talking Ass wrote:Many people, at one time or another, have had experiences like the 'rebirth' you refer to. But there are so many different levels to it. One can't really be sure what you are referring to or even if you make reference to yourself. In order for your story to have the effect you want, you'd have to talk more about yourself. Otherwise it just remains super-spiritual rap, which we have all heard for so long.

Yes, interestingly it seems that even an irreparably malformed or fragmented mind can, under certain circumstances, experience a 'rebirth' or a 'pure consciousness experience'. Or perhaps even many such experiences. Though nothing of real or lasting value will ever come of them. Save for perhaps their beholder selfishly exploiting them and the so-called 'levels of consciousness' too. I'm reminded here of Christ's parable of the planting of the seeds. Though if a genuine rebirth or awakening does take place in a person, there's still the need to ongoingly purify the mind lest the new state of being soon fade away and the old one returns again. Not to mention that the darkness, which lies all around the en-light-ened one, hateth the light and will do all it can to extinguish it. As has been my experience too. Hence the need to become "wise as serpents, and harmless as doves". Surely the journey is not for the faint-hearted.

Talking Ass wrote:When you say to detach from the old, etc., what do you mean? Leave one's natal country? Get rid of all one's old friends and associations? Sell everything and give it to the poor and 'follow Christ'? You say that you must leave the 'mediocre', but for what? What is this new life and how does it take shape?

What did Christ mean in Luke 18:29-30? And I personally did just this some 27 years ago. Though not on his advice as my knowledge and understanding of the Bible at that time were extremely limited. I up and left my home in the country and my family of 22 years and a well-paying job of 15 years and lived on the streets and in a Mission for a time. And went on to living a vagabond style life for the next 14 years. Leaving friends and associates for me was rather easy, as I had very few of them. Which remains the case today. When I took the above 'leap' all those who knew me thought I was nuts anyway. Which remains largely the case today. Seems I was a born loner or outsider. The leap too required me to pick up my cross (of suffering) as Christ too prescribed. You might want to look up some Christians for some further advice on this matter. Best of luck here though! Better it would be for you that you instead read some Nietzsche or J. Krishnamurti. Or perhaps maybe Colin Wilson's 'The Outsider'. But then again if one lacks ears to hear or eyes that can read between or behind the lines, God himself, should he exist, won't be able to make straight that which he hath made crooked (Eccles. 7:13). Remember again that in order to breakthrough to a new life one must become thoroughly sick and tired of his present one (Luke 14:26). From which point that blind leap of faith may take place thereby automatically ushering in the 'New Life'. Which happens to be the name of the late Vernon Howard's Foundation. Who some 19 years ago I presented the following question: "What's your view on the old adage, 'many are called, but few are chosen'." To which he replied, "You can choose to be chosen." Which I didn't buy then and surely don't buy now, having since gotten much further up that terrible mountain of Truth. And rather than 'following Christ' one needs to follow the beat of his or her own drummer or learn to walk in tune with the Christ or Cosmic Consciousness.

Talking Ass wrote:The 'soul-searching and repentance' could be understood in a few different ways, but it is likely intelligible to many, yet what do you mean? In a specific sense? You refer to AA---do you mean 'making amends'? Then, you mention 'One that's free of all conflict and thereby full of harmony and genuine peace of mind', and many people can relate to this, I think. But how can one be 100% free of all conflict? You are speaking in superlatives. I don't think it is possible to be free of conflicts nor is it necessarily desirable. It is more what we do with our conflicts, how we deal with them. The biblical Jesus had a huge and vast conflict, but, according to the story, he had a dynamic way of dealing with his conflicts. Also, to live as you (vaguely) propose will put one in conflict, directly, with all that you oppose, all that is 'dead' and machine-like, yet you don't seem to acknowledge this.

Yes, I happen to find AA's 12 Steps an excellant path to the promised-land. Especially Step 4: "Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of oueselves." Though, here again, without having had a spiritual awakening, rebirth, or complete psychic change take place in a person, they'll be but a meaningless and spiritless intellectual or 'legalistic' adventure producing no new being. Though quite frankly I find that while AA's basic founding principles remain quite fine, the fellowship has largely gone the way of organized religions. Rendering it likewise of no value either so far as it being of any real benefit for genuine spiritual growth and development. If you don't think it's possible to live without conflicts chances are quite good that you never will. I said previously that the nucleus of people, City of Light, or New Jerusalem will be built away from the beaten path. Where the gates of hell can't prevail against it. Christ, as is the case with all of us, created his own problems and conflicts and dealt with them as best as he was able to get himself out of the way and let his 'Heavenly Father' manage his affairs.

Talking Ass wrote:I am not opposed to your mission, though I do think you seek to present it in abstract and grandiose terms. In my case, the only stories that have relevance for me are the 'small stories' of people who manage, usually in small ways, to live in accord with their values. You seem to feel, though, that you will save the world from nuclear apocalypse (et cetera) and so establish your mission on a pretty exalted platform. To each his own I guess.

No, the goal is to 'save' a few who will carry a relatively small portion of the then perfected species forward after the necessary nuclear apocalyspe or grand cleansing of the planet takes place. Just imagine old Noah. Who, I wonder, in his day didn't think he was totally wacked? That is until it rained and it rained and it rained. And even though it was all a fable, I still find there's something of real value to be learned from the story. That is by those with open and thereby truly creative and imaginative minds.

Talking Ass wrote:The work ahead is to touch and open men's hearts to radical change. To a new and wonderful manner of living that's full of 'virtue' and its many rewards. Which can't be done via argument or debate. Okay, then how is it done? Please, I'd rather not receive a list of fine quotes but more a solid description of what you do or intend to do. How do you reach people? How do you get through to them? By posting on the internet? What exactly is it that 'touches men's hearts'? You say 'it' can't be done by argument or debate, which I also feel is true if it is typical argument or debate, but there is another style of 'argument' or 'debate' that is atypical. Again, if you refer to the Biblical Jesus what we see is a man willing to mix it up with people, to appear in their midst, to confront them. In a way what you say ISN'T true, because to reach people you actually have to enter into conflict with them. 'To get someone out of a hole you have to be willing to get a little dirty', said some Rabbi.

Confrontation, conflict, tough-love, atypical argument or debate may have a place in the scheme of things, but I find that showing others the way by being a kind, loving, gentle, though firm, friend or fellow traveller works best in touching and opening men (and women's) hearts to change. Along with some occasional light-hearted humor. Although one must be careful here as most people will run the wrong way with it making it counterproductive. Making dead-seriousness ideally the prevailing m. o.. While participating quite heavily for some 8 years on various internet discussion forums I have personally learned much and have grown tremendously along spiritual lines. Of course along with unending reading and study, soul-searching and purification, and much participation in life in the more real up close and personal world. Though it seems this was not, or perhaps very rarely, the case with others. But then again it all gets back again to the fact that I had previously undergone that vital and necessary transformation or shift in conscience or consciousness, which hadn't been the case with others in these forums. Many of the quotes I've offered herein I picked up over the earlier years of my journey. They were uplifting and inspiring and often served to encourage me on when the darkness crept back in again, which often happened along the way. Today I have an even deeper appreciation of them along with a clear and perfect understanding of them too. I share them with enthusiasm and hope, yet with the full realization too that for most others they are but dead words or something to be disputed. And such is life ever remembering a rather sad yet comforting line of the Preacher: "For in much wisdom is much grief; and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow" (Eccles. 1:18). So the awakened ones must always be certain to remain in the glad in order to avoid going mad.

Finally, and ask me not why, I think here of Emerson's description of a hero as one who, "Taking both reputation and life in his hand, will, with perfect urbanity, dare the gibbet and the mob, by the absolute truth of his speech and rectitude of his behavior."

Bob M.

Kind of busy...will get back to this.

Talking Ass wrote:Kind of busy...will get back to this.

Very well TA, take your time. Meanwhile I'm going to investigate the new Kinfonet J. Krishnamurti discussion forum. My stay is usually short lived on such forums as they seem to have very little tolerance for too much truth. But the action is always good developmentally for me.

Bob M.

"There are three possibilities for me - the gallows, suicide, or a future so brilliant that I don't dare to think of it. " (Otto Weininger)

Well, be sure to come back. We love Truth here and we drink it straight-up, like real men, no flinching.

"Oh I, could drink, a case of Truth
and I'd still be on my feet,
I would still..be..on..my..feeeeeeeet" (Trying to hit that high note all that comes out is a melancholy donkey's braying, but you understand where I'm coming from).

Talking Ass wrote:Well, be sure to come back. We love Truth here and we drink it straight-up, like real men, no flinching.

I'm not so sure about that. Few are there who are built for the Truth. The Truth about 'themselves first', that is. Which is where it must all begin. And which if gone courageously and deeply into becomes the great liberator of the human spirit. Yet it all gets back again to the need for possessing a finely-formed neurological construct if one is to ever overcome duality or psychic fragmentation. While the gross lacking thereof in the human species seems to have become the great evolutionary plague. Or shall we say stuck point?

I'm really only being nosey over at Kinfonet. Having be there on and off for some 6 years, I never had what I felt was a genuinely worthwhile or encouraging discussion with anyone. And in spite of being quite gentlemanly with my conduct there, I was banned about 4 times over that period of time. As was the case twice more recently over at the KFA fourm. But, as I've said before, I continue to develop my spiritual muscles in spite of the universal wall-to-wall darkness.

Bob M.

The 'Natural State'

Q: "You talk of a state that is entirely natural to man. I want to know if that natural state can be acquired by effort - if it can be acquired at all - or is it simply a chance occurrence?"

U. G. Krishnamurti: "When I use the term `natural state' it is not a synonym for `enlightenment', `freedom', or `God-realization', and so forth. Not at all. When the totality of mankind's knowledge and experience loses its stranglehold on the body - the physical organism - then the body is allowed to function in its own harmonious way. Your natural state is a biological, neurological, and physical state.....Anyway, the problem lies in our psyche. We function in a thought-sphere, and not in our biology. The separative thought structure, which is the totality of man's thoughts, feelings, experiences, and so on - what we call psyche or soul or self - is creating the disturbance. That is what is responsible for our misery; that's what continues the battle that is going on there [in the human being] all the time. This interloper, the thought sphere, has created your entire value system. The body is not in the least interested in values, much less a value system. It is only concerned with intelligent moment-to-moment survival, and nothing else. Spiritual `values' have no meaning to it. When, through some miracle or chance you are freed from the hold of thought and culture, you are left with the body's natural functions, and nothing else. It then functions without the interference of thought. Unfortunately, the servant, which is the thought structure that is there, has taken possession of the house. But he can no longer control and run the household. So he must be dislodged. It is in this sense that I use the term `natural state', without any connotation of spirituality or enlightenment." (U. G. Krishnamurti - 'No Way Out')

Bob M.

When the totality of mankind's knowledge and experience loses its stranglehold on the body - the physical organism - then the body is allowed to function in its own harmonious way. Your natural state is a biological, neurological, and physical state.....Anyway, the problem lies in our psyche. We function in a thought-sphere, and not in our biology. The separative thought structure, which is the totality of man's thoughts, feelings, experiences, and so on - what we call psyche or soul or self - is creating the disturbance. That is what is responsible for our misery; that's what continues the battle that is going on there [in the human being] all the time.

Hi Bob, the real geniuses of the GF have been holding themselves aloof, regrettably. So, you're stuck with a Talking Ass. Quickly because these days of early Summer are quite busy for me, I don't know what I think of this idea. Instinctively, it makes sense, I will even say it is true: man in his most natural state is biologically at peace, unconflicted by the eruptions from the psyche. But, that is what we really are as humans: psyches. So, it is inevitable. I haven't read the dude so I don't know where (else) his thinking goes. What does he propose?

Talking Ass wrote: Instinctively, it makes sense, I will even say it is true: man in his most natural state is biologically at peace, unconflicted by the eruptions from the psyche. But, that is what we really are as humans: psyches. So, it is inevitable. I haven't read the dude so I don't know where (else) his thinking goes. What does he propose?

Hi TA,

Seems then you're alluding that we need to get more and more in touch with our true human instincts. Our true and proper unadulterated human nature. And then fully LIVE it out. Which I agree.

If you're interested in learning more about U. G. Krishnamurti, there's much online including most of his books or books about him. He was rather uniquely totally opposed to the copyrighting of any of his material. I found him to be helpful over the years. Especially the details of his awakening experience which he called a 'Calamity'.Though it seems, like so many of the 'spiritual giants', he was of little help to mankind on the whole.

I got myself wrapped up participating in the newly redesigned Kinfonet (J. Krishnamurti) discussion forum. It's quite an impressive and elaborate site. Though like virtually all such places the quality and integrity of the 'dialogue' is not at all impressive. The vast majority of it being on a shallow and meaningless intellectual, rational, or logical level, rather than on a deep and meaningful heartfelt or mystical one. But then what can one expect in these last, dark days?

Bob M.