The Builder, and the Plan

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
cousinbasil
Posts: 1395
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 8:26 am
Location: Garment District

Re: The Builder, and the Plan

Post by cousinbasil »

rap wrote:
The extent of your discussion of "ideas" is the functions they serve. "Ideas have consequences" is about as deep as you get into it. You spend most of your time painting out these imagined "consequences." Interestingly, you never allow the debate to reach into and dismantle your own ideas. When another forum member dives into the functions of your own ideas, shining the light of truthful critique on them
Are you sure you are not Dan Rowden's sock puppet?

You seem to be saying contradictory things here. One - nobody can critique Alex's ideas because he won't let anybody at them. Two - Other forum members have dived into the "function" of his ideas, shining the "light of truth, etc." all around. How is that possible if as you say no one knows what they are?

Look, an argument can be seen to be a chain from premise to conclusion. In this forum, it does not exist in isolation - a chain is one-dimensional, here it branches out to become a web, a mesh of ramifications in multiple dimensions, if not on multiple levels. I take Alex's posts for what they are intended to be - he uses various means to point out what he sees as weak links. You do not have to agree with him to agree that such a member serves an important function.

In other words - and I am not speaking for Alex but for myself - one need not have any philosophy whatsoever in order to have the ability to spot flaws in any philosophy whatsoever.
User avatar
Diebert van Rhijn
Posts: 6469
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:43 pm

Re: The Builder, and the Plan

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Animus wrote:...trying to make a rather valid counter-point to your dismissing Gestefeld.
I wasn't aware of any intended dismissal from my side but some of my statements might seem that way at first glance.

I'll keep following your review to see why you think Gestefeld has something significant to offer you, considering your generally intellectual and critical orientation.
User avatar
Alex Jacob
Posts: 1671
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:10 am
Location: Meta-Rabbit Hole

Re: The Builder, and the Plan

Post by Alex Jacob »

I think this last post of yours provides a tiny bit more than the last one I remember:
  • Bluerap wrote: "Is it not telling that at the end, in your massively in-depth analysis of the personalities, that you admit that you have no conclusive answer?"
You don't have the perspective to speak about what my position is, since you are quite new here and have not, I don't think, read my posts which go back 3 years or something.

This last post, the one you responded to, is filled with ideas that you or anyone can discuss. Take any one of them and do that (if it pleases you). If you were as capable of talking things through, thinking things through, you would already have done this. But when one looks at your posts, as I just did, one sees essentially...nothing. All you do is repeat and uphold a few QRS-tian ideas about an Omniverse or God-knows-what and some other mocked-up chitter-chatter. Seriously. Click on your profile button and then see the list of your posts.

You are just one of DOZENS of limited 'thinkers' who come here to perfect some rap about emptiness, the Totality, and other such jive. It is bullshit and requires no response. Far more important is the issue of the way ideas are used to construct traps.

"Indeed you are very creative (and quite often perverted) in your analysis of the individuals."

Speak about that. Don't just refer to it, speak about it. You seem to want to engage in discussion, so here is your chance.

"You're quite convinced that you "have us all figured out," and therefore choose to not engage in unbiased discussion."

What I am quite convinced about, yes, is the terribly limited content of ideas that knock around in your head. And perhaps 'your heads'. If I have you 'figured out' it is only that I see (it is easy to see) that you operate from a limited mental palette. You are like a machine with three moving parts, no more. Again, click on your profile and examine your own posts. You might just as well never have posted if this is what you have to offer.

'Unbiased discussion'---here?!?---has got to be the biggest joke of the last week. There is no such thing as 'unbiased discussion'. Again, look at the limited group of ideas you work with and see the core tendentiousness in them. Then, tell me you are interested in 'unbiased discussion'. Who for Pete's sake wants unbiased discussion? Unbiased discussion, here, is one TB (true believer) reciting some pablum to another TB. Try to understand the way these things are rehearsed. Try to understand why I use the term 'rehearse'.

"This is your downfall, and is the definition of closed-mindedness."

It might be fair to say such a thing if, like you, I had just come on here. But I assure you this is not the case. Again, you would have to examine alot of writing and I don't think you have. If the discussion, in your eyes, has to do with 'open-mindedness', in what way do you contribute to opening of the mind? What are the limits for you? I will keep on assuming that my mind is quite a bit more 'open' than yours, if you please.

The nature of the way ideas are worked here, is to shrink them. The use of the term Omniverse and Totality functions as a brutal reduction. See this.

"The extent of your discussion of "ideas" is the functions they serve. 'Ideas have consequences' is about as deep as you get into it. You spend most of your time painting out these imagined 'consequences.' Interestingly, you never allow the debate to reach into and dismantle your own ideas."

Well, in some way you have arrived at an 'important core'. To whom shall you give the power to 'dismantle' your ideas? Just anyone? If ever you actually did this (you, Mr Bluerap), who would you allow to perform it? Your school psychologist? Your girlfriend? Or perhaps a marketing psychologist who wishes to know just how you tick? Or perhaps 'Osho' or any number of self-proclaimed gurus interested in building ashrams? Who is the one who shall dissect you, label the parts, categorize them, and then explain them? Do you think that David Quinn or Diebert or Kelly should be allowed this right? On what basis---quo warranto---should they have this right? Shall you surrended yourself to them for this analysis?

It is not so much that saying 'ideas have consequences' that is particularly original (I believe I got it from Francis Schaeffer but have bent it for my own purposes), but to say them HERE in this forum among essential sycophants, is very much a radical act. Now, this 'dissection' that you speak of---mark this!---is a game that is played here, a game of managing appearances. Only a fool would submit to such a procedure in an environment such as this.

And I absolutely do indeed critique 'the person' because that is the only 'thing' that has any ultimate relevance. This is not a 'debate' in a school gymnasium about the pros and cons of recycling.

"Deep and truthful observation destroys feelings and emotions, and leaves only bare, raw information (knowledge). Indeed, this must feel very "darkening" and "deadening" to you."

This is a content-lade package, a swirl of stark presuppositions, and a vital reduction on your part. If your thinking has three moving parts, this must surely be the mainspring. What you are stating here, to all appearances, is a romantic projection, some wishful thinking, an attempt to reflect, mirror and rehearse some pseudo-Buddhist ideas you have picked up and installed in your head.

Feelings and emotions must never be 'destroyed', not in the way you mean. So, yes, to USE ideas as a tool to 'destroy' vital parts of your own self, that must be worked with for all the duration of your life, in your own self and in others who share the field with you, is a death-idea. It is fake, insincere and has much to do with 'image-management'.
Ni ange, ni bête
User avatar
Diebert van Rhijn
Posts: 6469
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:43 pm

Re: The Builder, and the Plan

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Animus wrote:Sie is the formal/plural "You" in German.
As well as singular "she"! Sie as formal "you" is capitalized, but as the plural "they" not.

The plural "you" is actually: "ihr" in German.

So a sentence starting with "Sie..." can mean "she", "they" or "a polite "You".

Hope this helps.
User avatar
Alex Jacob
Posts: 1671
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:10 am
Location: Meta-Rabbit Hole

Re: The Builder, and the Plan

Post by Alex Jacob »

Bluerap, can YOU write such charming poetry?

What about this?

Really, I miss Talking Ass®. Anyone heard from him lately?
Ni ange, ni bête
User avatar
Russell Parr
Posts: 854
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:44 am

Re: The Builder, and the Plan

Post by Russell Parr »

cousinbasil wrote:You seem to be saying contradictory things here. One - nobody can critique Alex's ideas because he won't let anybody at them. Two - Other forum members have dived into the "function" of his ideas, shining the "light of truth, etc." all around. How is that possible if as you say no one knows what they are?
Perhaps "expressions" would have been a better word here. Ideas are merely expressions, after all. My point is he refuses to delve into the details and functions of his own ideas, as in, his expressions.
Alex wrote:To whom shall you give the power to 'dismantle' your ideas?
Ultimately, it's up to you alone to truly observe yourself.
Alex wrote:Feelings and emotions must never be 'destroyed', not in the way you mean.
Feelings and emotions in the form of attachment must indeed be destroyed, if ultimate knowledge is the goal.

Since you've been here for three years, and hold firmly to your position, I'll save us both time and conclude my end of the discussion here.
User avatar
Alex Jacob
Posts: 1671
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:10 am
Location: Meta-Rabbit Hole

Re: The Builder, and the Plan

Post by Alex Jacob »

Fait comme tu veux. (*Snif, Sob!*) What I will say is that you come out with all these outrageous charges, spurt and spark for a minute, and then reveal you are not interested in conversation. The only conversation you wish to have is one where your presuppositions are established and agreed upon. That is not conversation. That is rehearsal.
Ni ange, ni bête
Animus
Posts: 1351
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 4:31 pm

Re: The Builder, and the Plan

Post by Animus »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
Animus wrote:Sie is the formal/plural "You" in German.
As well as singular "she"! Sie as formal "you" is capitalized, but as the plural "they" not.

The plural "you" is actually: "ihr" in German.

So a sentence starting with "Sie..." can mean "she", "they" or "a polite "You".

Hope this helps.
Oh, that's right, Sie is plural, but it is plural "they" and "Ihr" is plural "You".

E.g. Kann Ihren bitte Papieren sehen? (Can I see your papers please?)

Thanks Diebert
cousinbasil
Posts: 1395
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 8:26 am
Location: Garment District

Re: The Builder, and the Plan

Post by cousinbasil »

Diebert wrote:You're listing all those names as damn trophies.
That's a good metaphor. One can see the bookshelf as the wall in the hunter's den, each taxidermally embalmed head the symbol of something conquered, perhaps digested.
.
Animus
Posts: 1351
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 4:31 pm

Re: The Builder, and the Plan

Post by Animus »

Actually, the books are the lesser of digested material. I've read a lot more on the interent, independent of my trophies. I got no trophy for the web-based texts. No copy of WOTI on my bookshelf.

Maybe I mentioned them as an illustration of my thinking, so that you would stop trying to tell me about things I already understand as if I didn't understand them.

Genius problem is that members are more interested in people, than events or ideas. Reminds me of a quote:

“Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people.” -Eleanor Roosevelt
Dennis Mahar
Posts: 4082
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:03 pm

Re: The Builder, and the Plan

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Genius problem is that members are more interested in people, than events or ideas. Reminds me of a quote:

“Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people.” -Eleanor Roosevelt
That's a cheap shot Sir!
Haven't you just spent a week talking about your GF?
Animus
Posts: 1351
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 4:31 pm

Re: The Builder, and the Plan

Post by Animus »

Dennis Mahar wrote:
Genius problem is that members are more interested in people, than events or ideas. Reminds me of a quote:

“Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people.” -Eleanor Roosevelt
That's a cheap shot Sir!
Haven't you just spent a week talking about your GF?
I think there is the difference that I was talking about her for reference to ideas. Whereas, a lot of you just like talking about each other, for the sake of talking about each other.
cousinbasil
Posts: 1395
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 8:26 am
Location: Garment District

Re: The Builder, and the Plan

Post by cousinbasil »

That's a cheap shot Sir!
Haven't you just spent a week talking about your GF?
Cheap shot at what? Animus did not spend "a week" talking about the GF - he mentioned her, and woe betide the GF (Genius Forum) contributor who does that.
Dennis Mahar
Posts: 4082
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:03 pm

Re: The Builder, and the Plan

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Alex,
Your central thesis is about platform/performance.
You render platform/performance empty and meaningless..fair enough.

Except that you have walked into that and made it meaningful.
And given yourself your very own platform/performance.

When you see what looks like platform/performance, you get to act out your position enthusiastically, as tho' it has prodigious gravity.

In this Court of Inquiry into the true nature, you have set yourself up as a barrister, presenting to the bench an argument that charges QRS with crimes...that would be your platform here.
Your performance as barrister,
involves,
ad hominen, wild accusation, frenetic emotion, table thumping, requests for banning of yourself, unbanning of yourself, threats to run away to 'cool heels', etc...

The bench would notice this performance as 'barnstorming', 'grandstanding'...
You would be held in contempt of Court.
And the charges dismissed, effective immediately.
cousinbasil
Posts: 1395
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 8:26 am
Location: Garment District

Re: The Builder, and the Plan

Post by cousinbasil »

Calling Animus out for even mentioning a personal relationship is the cheap shot!
Last edited by cousinbasil on Sat Dec 25, 2010 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Dennis Mahar
Posts: 4082
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:03 pm

Re: The Builder, and the Plan

Post by Dennis Mahar »

mentioned her
as a reference to ideas

whatever it was it was talking about a person.
Dennis Mahar
Posts: 4082
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:03 pm

Re: The Builder, and the Plan

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Calling Animus out for even mentioning a personal relationship is the cheap shot!
It was the appropriate call.
In light of Ryan's call that Genius Forum has a problem by talking about persons.

You've got to know what your left hand is doing.

He either talked about a person or he didn't.

Did Ryan talk about a person?
Animus
Posts: 1351
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 4:31 pm

Re: The Builder, and the Plan

Post by Animus »

Its whether or not talking about the person is the point of argumentation or whether or not talking about the person is a means to talking about an idea.

Granted, when there is a difference of idea, there is often a difference of person which must be resolved in order to resolve the difference of idea. So, I submit there are legitimate and illigitimate causes for talking about persons.

But when two people are slinging-mud and there is no resolution of persons taking place, the conversation would probably best be served by addressing the ideas in question. It is only when the persons involved have the acceptance of the possibility of being wrong and of change, that the personal issues could be resolved. If ego-on-ego action is taking place, then it appears to be a descending dynamic that continues on indefinitely.
cousinbasil
Posts: 1395
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 8:26 am
Location: Garment District

Re: The Builder, and the Plan

Post by cousinbasil »

Dennis Mahar wrote:
Calling Animus out for even mentioning a personal relationship is the cheap shot!
It was the appropriate call.
In light of Ryan's call that Genius Forum has a problem by talking about persons.

You've got to know what your left hand is doing.

He either talked about a person or he didn't.

Did Ryan talk about a person?
You are correct, sir. Ryan is guilty of humanizing this Forum. Wait, hold on - I've got some gum on my shoe---
Animus
Posts: 1351
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 4:31 pm

Re: The Builder, and the Plan

Post by Animus »

Much of the time, there appears to be a disagreement taking place amongst the "thinkers" (QRS, Kelly, etc..) and those who maintain the feeling aspects (Bob, Pam, etc...) and this difference is of principle but also of person. So the discussion always comes back to the person and their attitude towards rational inquiry. This is a legitimate cause for talking about persons, to the extent that any progress could be made in these realms. But if neither side of the discussion, takes ownership enough of these attitudes, then change is highly unlikely, and the discussion becomes mud-slinging.
User avatar
Alex Jacob
Posts: 1671
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:10 am
Location: Meta-Rabbit Hole

Re: The Builder, and the Plan

Post by Alex Jacob »

Eleanor Roosevelt wrote: "Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people."

I think that what she meant is that small-minded people talk about...gossip, celebrities, the people next door and what they do and don't do.

It is possible, and sometimes very good, to speak abstractly about ideas. But when it comes to the issue/question of 'enlightenment', spirituality, and modalities for living, and when this is a contentious, difficult territory where certain ideas and activities are labeled, rather forcefully as 'feminine', etc. etc. At this point one has stepped out of an abstract conversation and become personal.

The best conversation occurs where people actually reveal who they are, what sort of ideas they have and use, and what the results are. That is my view anyway.

GF simply has a history of dysfunction in this area (the personal) that will likely never get better.
Ni ange, ni bête
Animus
Posts: 1351
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 4:31 pm

Re: The Builder, and the Plan

Post by Animus »

Example:

Person A: Ursula Gestefeld's philosophy is henidic and ambiguous
Person B: I enjoy Gestefeld's philosophy not because it is clear and concise, but because it engages other parts of my being not accessible by purely conceptual thought.
Person A: But there are much better authors and books.
Person B: I have plenty of those books at home, and yet, I still find some utility in this one.
Person C: You say that like your books are trophies.
Person B: No, not at all, I say it because it illustrates the fact that I'm well aware of the alternative ("dominant") lines of thought.

Person C's comment in this scenario is a form of mud-slinging, which overlooks the actual purpose for Person Bs statement, and goes right for the egotistical motives presumed to exist. This happens all the time on this board. People are constantly looking for the ego, and I'm reminded of something Solway said in one of his videos. The unenlightened man will seek the egotistical motives in the enlightened man and falsely assume them to exist [paraphrased]. Whether someone is englightened or not, as an observer, you can always make some connection between the actions and possible egotistical motives. I think, if you set out, from the onset, to find some egotistical motive, then you will find something, but it may not be the person you are talking to.
Animus
Posts: 1351
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 4:31 pm

Re: The Builder, and the Plan

Post by Animus »

A story to illustrate the point:

A young monk is contemplating what life will be like after enlightenement.

He sees an elder monk descending down a path carrying a pale of water in each hand, with a bundle of chopped wood slung over his back.

The young monk approaches the elder monk and asks him: "What is enlightenment like?"

The elder monk drops the two pales of water to the ground and unfolds the bundle of wood from his sholder, placing it next to the pales.

"I see" said the young monk, "and what is it like after enlightenment?"

The elder monk slings the bundle of wood over his shoulder, picks up the pales of water and continues his descent along the path.

Before enlightenment; chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment; chop wood and carry water.

There is no distinguishing, from the outside, that the elder monk in this story is actually enlightened, except perhaps by his responses to the young monk, but only if the young monk is enlightened enough to recognize enlightenment from the elder monks actions. As a casual passer-by, there is no telling whether the elder monk is enlightened or not, no telling whether his motives are egotistical or not.
Dennis Mahar
Posts: 4082
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:03 pm

Re: The Builder, and the Plan

Post by Dennis Mahar »

You are correct, sir. Ryan is guilty of humanizing this Forum. Wait, hold on - I've got some gum on my shoe---
No.
Ryan said Genius Forum has a problem by talking about persons.
Ryan talks about a person.

That's it completely.
Ryan is guilty of humanizing this Forum. Wait, hold on - I've got some gum on my shoe
That's distraction.
Dennis Mahar
Posts: 4082
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:03 pm

Re: The Builder, and the Plan

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Alex,
GF simply has a history of dysfunction in this area (the personal) that will likely never get better.
No.
The mood is detachment.
Your mood is antagonism.
Locked