GENIUS FORUMS

One of the oldest topics in the discussion of growth is the incessant chatter of the mind. Everyone has heard the descriptions of the chatter and maybe even of some ways to conquer it, but this perspective is easily overlooked as a day-to-day, moment-to-moment method of observation. I am a little surprised that a community dedicated to growth and enightenment could forget or gloss over or ignore this time-tested insight.

I am aware that ego attempts to blind itself to anything that might be considered a threat to its pride or supremacy. In this, it is not too shocking that mental chatter reigns supreme even on these boards. It is actually only transcended in "advanced" stages of growth. What makes things a little less obvious is that a few claim to have "knowledge" of certain things--presumably, the mind among them--and seem not to apply this same knowledge to their own growth. All one can do is be reminding of this knowledge.

The essence of this perspective is that the observer or hearer of thoughts is not the actual thoughts or the voice of the mind. The observer, which is your awareness, may direct its attention to this voice or to anything else within one's experience. This much is obvious; what is not obvious is how the mind produces its incessant chatter even when you are seemingly controlling your attention. This I cannot speak to. What I can describe are methods of actualizing a decrescendo of this mental jabbering.

DF,

his much is obvious; what is not obvious is how the mind produces its incessant chatter even when you are seemingly controlling your attention. This I cannot speak to.

There are two sane approaches to this and could explain why it seems no attention is given to this specific meditation in discussions here. I assume you're familiar with the following..

The first approach is to acknowledge the quiet mind doesn't exist. Like a petrol-based engine makes noise because it's basically igniting stuff - controlled explosions - and even electrical engines have the wining and spinning of parts. Any goal of silencing the mind is invain, as it denies the nature of how appearances rise to our mind's eye.

The second approach is to link the arising of incessant chatter to attachment and emotional linkages; any need to have this chatter. It can be attachment to the subject matter, not able to let go, or it can be attachment to the phenomenon itself like the need for a radio in a quiet room. So we're left here with a desire for comforting, familiar content which we can identify with somehow.

What I can describe are methods of actualizing a decrescendo of this mental jabbering.

That's all good and well but how does one know it's actually decreased and not merely muted? When the proto-thought, no matter how tiny, cannot become expressed, the drive giving birth to the thought might still push through in our limbic system, through deeper tensions and motivators that rule our life. The chatter might be just a safety valve to release by-products after all.

When seen like this it becomes clear that mental noise cannot be truly addressed without addressing attachment, emotion and desire. Any other approach seems prone to error and self-deceit, although I'm not saying just following exercises wouldn't have instant benefit for daily functioning and ability to concentrate.

divine focus wrote:One of the oldest topics in the discussion of growth is the incessant chatter of the mind.

It's even in Jedi knight philosophy.

divine focus wrote:What I can describe are methods of actualizing a decrescendo of this mental jabbering.

That sounds useful, but it is not the same thing. Practice is what produces results. Practice listening. If you are truly listening, your mind is not talking. There are sounds that your mind can grab onto while you are new. Music is a crutch, but if that is necessary to begin, then that is necessary. Next step is to listen to nature. Go outside and listen to the birds, the leaves rustling in the wind... The more quiet your mind is, the more you can hear, so as a temporary measure listen like it is very important to hear something that you would not hear unless you were listening for it. Hear every creak of every branch - the slithering of a snake through the mud - everything. When your mind is full of everything else, it can not be full of itself. From here, you will see how to empty your mind.

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:The first approach is to acknowledge the quiet mind doesn't exist.

Oh, balderdash. Just because you have not experienced it personally does not mean that it does not exist. I have experienced it.

Elizabeth wrote:Just because you have not experienced it personally does not mean that it does not exist. I have experienced it.

Perhaps you're just not listening hard enough. An empty mind is no mind.

That would depend on how one defines "mind."

High awareness is largely intuitive, as there are certain principles which become second nature. In this state, the mind runs mostly off pattern recognition and memory recall. Where's your receptivity, Diebert?

(jk)

divine focus wrote:One of the oldest topics in the discussion of growth is the incessant chatter of the mind. Everyone has heard the descriptions of the chatter and maybe even of some ways to conquer it, but this perspective is easily overlooked as a day-to-day, moment-to-moment method of observation. I am a little surprised that a community dedicated to growth and enightenment could forget or gloss over or ignore this time-tested insight.

To which "time-tested insight" are you referring? I don't see one in the paragraph above.

I am aware that ego attempts to blind itself to anything that might be considered a threat to its pride or supremacy. In this, it is not too shocking that mental chatter reigns supreme even on these boards. It is actually only transcended in "advanced" stages of growth. What makes things a little less obvious is that a few claim to have "knowledge" of certain things--presumably, the mind among them--and seem not to apply this same knowledge to their own growth. All one can do is be reminding of this knowledge.

Who here, who claim to have "knowledge of certain things," do you see using "these boards" to reveal their mental chatter in ways showing that it "reigns supreme"?

The essence of this perspective is that the observer or hearer of thoughts is not the actual thoughts or the voice of the mind. The observer, which is your awareness, may direct its attention to this voice or to anything else within one's experience.

True. There is a conscious part of the mind, which can be developed, and an unconscious part, which free-associates and automatically churns out mental chatter.

This much is obvious; what is not obvious is how the mind produces its incessant chatter even when you are seemingly controlling your attention. This I cannot speak to. What I can describe are methods of actualizing a decrescendo of this mental jabbering.

Please describe those, then.

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:That would depend on how one defines "mind."

It will always depend on context. Which in this case is the first post where the issue of chatter is likened to 'hearing ones thoughts'. The mind seems in this context to be the causal agent: that what produces the perceived thoughts.

In my experiences the issue looks different. In my mind I never witness words like it would be reading a book or hearing a book being read. Those words only come in a later stage when trying to formulate something, to express outwards. In my observation (also a function of mind) there's a multitude of impressions, sensations, feelings, memory flashes (color, smell, taste), mostly primal shapes and images. From these elements a direction is formed, a hint of order created and when the need arises at the most superficial level words are formed.

So the inner world of the mind looks more to me like a sensual world; words only crystallize at the edges. I never remain in that chat space, perhaps only while reading a book. This is not my uniqueness but it's the situation I assume everybody to be in.

Now my issue with quieting the mind is that it's not just about having no words or have no defined thought or feeling arising; that just creates a void acting like a cushion. When giving attention to defined content without assigning importance, it disappears easily, falling back into the 'chaos' it earlier arose from. Attention here acts like the 'great disassembler', some kind of solvent but just as with camera security, it would be a false sense of security.

It's like saying that a calm sea without waves is an empty sea. Or to say an ocean wave which is not broken in the surf is a flat wave. It's way more accurate to say here that you need a heavy anchor if steadiness or fixed location is the goal, as one can never swallow the whole sea or master the weather.

Yes, it is worries and fears which generate mental chatter - or I should say, unnecessary mental chatter. The mind thinks and chatters as a matter of course. It is only when it becomes disturbing that people perceive it as a problem.

Trying to still the mind with meditative techniques won't work unless you address the worries and fears that bubble away inside you. You can perhaps gain some temporary periods of relief through meditation, but it is essentially a form of violence - a case of trying to distract attention away from the worries and fears that are ever-present. Nothing beats the elimination of the root causes of worry and fear through philosophic understanding and practice. That is the only way the mind can be calmed permanently.

-

The title reminds me of a video of Ken wilber controlling his brain waves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFFMtq5g8N4

David Quinn wrote:Yes, it is worries and fears which generate mental chatter - or I should say, unnecessary mental chatter. The mind thinks and chatters as a matter of course.

Not necessarily. It is true that worry is the root cause of chatter and also the main effect of chatter, in that the idea of ending the chatter is a cause of much alarm. How will everything get done that needs to get done without staying on top of it all? "Without worry there is no assurance of success, or even survival!" The problem is that success is automatically equated with survival, erroneously but knowingly, and there is only one specific outcome that would equal this "SUCCESS!!"

It is not in actuality necessary for the mind to chatter at all. The rational mind has a specific purpose, to serve at the behest of the "owner;" beyond this quick, direct functionality, it has no need to be engaged. Any continuous thinking with no specific, known purpose to you is a sign of an underlying worrying. It also is not wrong; ultimately, it doesn't matter. It may matter to you personally, in which case you will be taking measures within your perception and "outside" of perception--i.e., objectively and subjectively--to move along the path.


Diebert,

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:

his much is obvious; what is not obvious is how the mind produces its incessant chatter even when you are seemingly controlling your attention. This I cannot speak to.

There are two sane approaches to this and could explain why it seems no attention is given to this specific meditation in discussions here. I assume you're familiar with the following..

The first approach is to acknowledge the quiet mind doesn't exist. Like a petrol-based engine makes noise because it's basically igniting stuff - controlled explosions - and even electrical engines have the wining and spinning of parts. Any goal of silencing the mind is invain, as it denies the nature of how appearances rise to our mind's eye.

This may be true, as my goal was never to silence the mind, specifically. My only goal was to advance in awareness, whatever that happened to entail.

The second approach is to link the arising of incessant chatter to attachment and emotional linkages; any need to have this chatter. It can be attachment to the subject matter, not able to let go, or it can be attachment to the phenomenon itself like the need for a radio in a quiet room. So we're left here with a desire for comforting, familiar content which we can identify with somehow.

Yes, the familiarity of that stream of content is the reason for idenfitication with it. We intuitively realize that our identity is continuous, and continiuty breeds familiarity. In becoming so accustomed to the chatter, we lose sight of our actual identity, which is even more continuous than the chatter. It was before and will be after.

What I can describe are methods of actualizing a decrescendo of this mental jabbering.

That's all good and well but how does one know it's actually decreased and not merely muted? When the proto-thought, no matter how tiny, cannot become expressed, the drive giving birth to the thought might still push through in our limbic system, through deeper tensions and motivators that rule our life. The chatter might be just a safety valve to release by-products after all.

Nothing rules your life other than you. There is no drive giving birth to chatter other than your need for it. It was instilled as a way of functioning and participating within a metally-chattering society; remove the need--the deep tensions and motivators that you agree to--and you remove the drive.

When seen like this it becomes clear that mental noise cannot be truly addressed without addressing attachment, emotion and desire. Any other approach seems prone to error and self-deceit, although I'm not saying just following exercises wouldn't have instant benefit for daily functioning and ability to concentrate.

Yes, but attachment and desire cannot be successfully addressed mentally outside of the experience. I'm not a huge fan of "exercises," although they may work for some. I'd rather focus on a specific topic for a time and let the exercise be noticing all of your experience in that particular light.


Carl,

Carl G wrote:

divine focus wrote:This much is obvious; what is not obvious is how the mind produces its incessant chatter even when you are seemingly controlling your attention. This I cannot speak to. What I can describe are methods of actualizing a decrescendo of this mental jabbering.

Please describe those, then.

I have and I will.


Elizabeth,

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:Practice is what produces results. Practice listening. If you are truly listening, your mind is not talking.

Agreed.

David Quinn wrote:You can perhaps gain some temporary periods of relief through meditation, but it is essentially a form of violence - a case of trying to distract attention away from the worries and fears that are ever-present. Nothing beats the elimination of the root causes of worry and fear through philosophic understanding and practice. That is the only way the mind can be calmed permanently.

You are pointing out a circle rather than the moon. One can not obtain philosophic understanding without at least temporarily removing the chatter. The chatter can have content other than worry or fear. Obsession is a common one, which is a form of attachment. The obsession could be over something pleasurable, including daydreaming over a desire.

Perhaps ripping away one's unnecessary worries and fears is a form of violence, but if so, then not all forms of violence are bad.

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:

David Quinn wrote:You can perhaps gain some temporary periods of relief through meditation, but it is essentially a form of violence - a case of trying to distract attention away from the worries and fears that are ever-present. Nothing beats the elimination of the root causes of worry and fear through philosophic understanding and practice. That is the only way the mind can be calmed permanently.

You are pointing out a circle rather than the moon. One can not obtain philosophic understanding without at least temporarily removing the chatter. The chatter can have content other than worry or fear. Obsession is a common one, which is a form of attachment. The obsession could be over something pleasurable, including daydreaming over a desire.

Obsession and attachment are themselves driven by anxiety and fear. Daydreaming over a desire for a lover or success, for example, is an expression of worry over being alone or failing.

I've never had a major problem with mental chattering, but I've found through experience that nothing creates that calm, clear mind needed for philosophical progress more effectively than a real hunger to understand what is true. The mind naturally travels to where the heart is, as the old saying goes.

Perhaps ripping away one's unnecessary worries and fears is a form of violence, but if so, then not all forms of violence are bad.

Anything that helps you make philosophical progress is good, but violence is usually ineffectual because it is invariably directed towards the superficial, outer manifestations of a situation and not at its root. It might be necessary on occasion, though.

-

Divine Focus wrote:

The essence of this perspective is that the observer or hearer of thoughts is not the actual thoughts or the voice of the mind. The observer, which is your awareness, may direct its attention to this voice or to anything else within one's experience. This much is obvious; what is not obvious is how the mind produces its incessant chatter even when you are seemingly controlling your attention. This I cannot speak to. What I can describe are methods of actualizing a decrescendo of this mental jabbering.

This is the actor, that does what it is told, that is a puppet to the ego.

The mental chatter is the actor asking to be directed.

David wrote:

Trying to still the mind with meditative techniques won't work unless you address the worries and fears that bubble away inside you. You can perhaps gain some temporary periods of relief through meditation, but it is essentially a form of violence - a case of trying to distract attention away from the worries and fears that are ever-present. Nothing beats the elimination of the root causes of worry and fear through philosophic understanding and practice. That is the only way the mind can be calmed permanently.

I guess one has to remove the actor, the "self", from concentrating on specific "learnt-while-ego-influenced" roles, and allowing the actor free reign with improvisation.

With improvisation the setting will still be a controlling influence, the environment does not cease to exist, but "what fits best" is one of automatic calculation. While such "automatic calculation" is based on what one has learnt - knowledge is vital - it does not depend on what values one's ego attaches to each new experience.

An artists improvisation is related to harnessing emotions to produce an effect, and the "automatic calculation" only relates to the non-conscious calculation of what "artistically fits best", such as a musician knows when an improvisation is worthy of being followed. A buddha-philosopher, an artist of the mind, removes even this emotion. This does not mean that such a person does not plan or react in some instinctual pattern - the person is still relying on the memories of the mind to calculate actions. Values still therefore exist, but as such values are not primarily attached to the ego, to the actors life time role, then they are automatically not as finite in scope, they now relate to the bigger picture, of reality, rather than the self as reality.

Like very many here, I still remain in as an actor with an ego role - that of a wantabe sage.