Robert Anton Wilson

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Nick
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Re: Robert Anton Wilson

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vicdan wrote:Even if you are firmly convinced that I hold my philosophical views on faith, that would still leave me immeasurably less faith-bound than vast majority of the populace.
So what you have faith in is, shall we say, less primitive, but the strength of your faith is immense, which is what makes you far more faithful or faith-bound than the average joe.
vicdan wrote:Unlike xianity and islam, moron, judaism actually pays little attention to faith. in judaism, what you do is infinitely more important than what you believe. belief plays a second, or even third, fiddle. As a culture, jews are far less suffused with faith than any xian or muslim people.
So jews have infinite faith in what they do, exactly my point numb nuts.
vicdan wrote:However, actually understanding the matter holds no interest to you. Instead, you wish to ascribe some intellectual sin to the jews. Good going, kiddo.
You never stop with the straw mans eh, always projecting moral implications on to everything I say, when morals have absolutely nothing to do with what I'm talking about. You know, morality is very important to the religious mind-set.
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vicdan
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Re: Robert Anton Wilson

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Hmmm. I guess you are too dumb to talk to.
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David Quinn
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Re: Robert Anton Wilson

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Carl G wrote:
David Quinn wrote:Saw a muslim/arab protestor the other day holding up a sign saying, "Death to the Juice". Don't know if he was trying to be funny or not. He looked serious.
A lot of folks still want O.J. Simpson to fry for the 1994 murder of Nicole Simpson and Ron Goldman. His football nickname was "The Juice." Maybe that was the reference.
I see, wrong protest. That would explain it.

A pity. Some pythonesque humour is just what the Middle-East needs.

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Dan Rowden
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Re: Robert Anton Wilson

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You were right the first time, Dave. The placard has the word "zionist" on it.
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David Quinn
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Re: Robert Anton Wilson

Post by David Quinn »

Which makes it, "Death to all Zionist Juice".

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Dan Rowden
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Re: Robert Anton Wilson

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Jason
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Re: Robert Anton Wilson

Post by Jason »

vicdan wrote:
Jason wrote:
vicdan wrote:How do you prove that !(A & !A) -- the non-contradiction axiom, one of the core axioms of boolean and predicate logic? Or how about the excluded middle axiom -- A | !A?
Tell me, Victor, how do you prove those?
You don't.
So how do you personally categorize them? Are they true/truth? Are they knowledge? Are they certainties? Do they have predictive power? What are they and what qualities do they posses?
vicdan wrote:
Jason wrote:First, I think it is you who should "think a little", because the exact first scenario that you gave(learning language), was one of the scenarios that I imagined whilst posing the question.
And you thought that to fall into 'totally certain' category? <LOL>
Are you serious? I meant that I imagined that you'd raise language as an example of an induction-based process that underlies so-called certainties.
vicdan wrote:
Jason wrote:Second, 'certainties', of a kind, can still exist without induction. What is experienced directly and in the moment - like the visual sensation of "red", for example. Or even when I use language to utter the word "red" in the moment.
1) These 'certainties' are grounded in the 'uncertainty' of your cognitive development at the very least. You are claiming that you can build a solid rock of certainty in the middle of an infinitely deep ocean of uncertainty.
I'm not claiming to build anything, quite the opposite, I'm suggesting removing all structures to just leave the inherent foundation.

What is this "infinite deep ocean of uncertainty" that you speak of? Or your reference to "cognitive development"? They sound like appeals to some sort of rock solid grounding themselves.

Simply to allow for induction and prediction there must be something occurring from moment to moment. What is this something? Do you claim it is not certain that something is happening(in at least the broadest and most vague sense, even) as opposed to nothing? There is something happening and existing right? I think it valid to call this something a 'certainty.' Maybe such things don't fall within your definition of certainty?
vicdan wrote:2) The things you mentioned aren't nearly as certain as you think. In fact, it's amazing how uncertain our own introspection is. For a more detailed exposition of this, read Dennett's "Quining Qualia".
Introspection? What introspection? You mean you're certain that there's introspection going on? (I'll check out Quining Qualia.)
vicdan wrote:And your present self is grounded in those past uncertainties.


So is it certain that these past uncertainties existed?
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vicdan
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Re: Robert Anton Wilson

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Dan Rowden wrote:You were right the first time, Dave. The placard has the word "zionist" on it.
maybe OJ is one of those 'black zionist' people? They are very weird. When I lived in Israel, I ran into them a few times. They claim to be the only real jews... a bit like the jewish version of Nation of Islam, but creepier.
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vicdan
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Re: Robert Anton Wilson

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Jason wrote:So how do you personally categorize them? Are they true/truth? Are they knowledge? Are they certainties? Do they have predictive power? What are they and what qualities do they posses?
They are tools which enable very useful predictions and models. That's as far as i am willing to go.

Philosophy of math is a very difficult topic which, I frankly, never paid much attention to. I am already chasing a dozen different intellectual disciplines all at once. Four different areas of philosophy just about do it for me philosophy-wise.
Simply to allow for induction and prediction there must be something occurring from moment to moment. What is this something?
See, this is what you are missing. You are still thinking in the 19th-century way.

Consider this:

To allow for relativistic measurements, there must still be something to measure. The observed object must have some velocity. What is that velocity?

What i am suggesting is that measurements and observations are the only thing we can talk about; that the measurements, and the predictive models we utilize them in, are the content of observations -- kinda like how i spoke earlier of math being the content of QM; anything else is just a salve for our maladjusted intuitions. You are trying to say "yeah, sure, but what is really under the hood?" -- and i am trying to say that you can't meaningfully answer, or even ask, that question. Whether you realize it or not, you are still looking to find noumena, you are still questing for things behind perceptions -- the ideal forms apart from their sensible aspects.

I know it's a tricky cognitive shift to attain, because it took me a couple of years to do it, though I was doing it all on my own. Try, however, to think in terms of perceptions not being the front of things, but being all there is to things. Even if you don't adopt this view, it's a very entertaining intellectual trick, kinda like looking at those pseudo-3D prints full of swirly colors, then crossing your eyes the right way, and all of a sudden -- POOF! -- a 3D image pops off the page at you.

To illustrate what I mean, consider this example (and assume, for argument's sake, that strong AI is possible).

Imagine we have a strong AI, named Bob. it performs some suitably sophisticated intellectual task -- say, writing the Great American Novel. This process exemplifies its intelligence. However, the writing of this novel was a sequence of computer commands, which can be printed out. This huge printout in fact represents Bob writing the novel. It is Bob writing the novel -- and yet it's also a static pile of paper. Somehow, this paper represents an intelligent process; it represents cognition. We can observe the cognitive process in it the same way we could observe the same cognitive process when Bob was actually in the process of writing the novel; it's as if Bob'e universe got frozen in time, and we, observers, stand outside time and look into it like gods. Nonetheless, the intelligence is there.

However, let's take this one step further. We take the huge printout, and scramble the sheets.


Where is Bob?
Introspection? What introspection? You mean you're certain that there's introspection going on? (I'll check out Quining Qualia.)
yeah, you do that; then let's discuss the issue of certainty and cognition.
So is it certain that these past uncertainties existed?
Yeah, sure, whatever. <rolls eyes>
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Jason
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Re: Robert Anton Wilson

Post by Jason »

vicdan wrote:
Jason wrote:Simply to allow for induction and prediction there must be something occurring from moment to moment. What is this something?
See, this is what you are missing. You are still thinking in the 19th-century way.

Consider this:

To allow for relativistic measurements, there must still be something to measure. The observed object must have some velocity. What is that velocity?

What i am suggesting is that measurements and observations are the only thing we can talk about; that the measurements, and the predictive models we utilize them in, are the content of observations -- kinda like how i spoke earlier of math being the content of QM; anything else is just a salve for our maladjusted intuitions. You are trying to say "yeah, sure, but what is really under the hood?" -- and i am trying to say that you can't meaningfully answer, or even ask, that question. Whether you realize it or not, you are still looking to find noumena, you are still questing for things behind perceptions -- the ideal forms apart from their sensible aspects.
What you've said there doesn't represent my thinking at all. I didn't say that there was anything beyond or behind the measurements/observations/perceptions themselves. I simply said that there was something occurring from moment to moment. Measurements/observations/perceptions alone fit the bill - they are something that is occurring from moment to moment.
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Carl G
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Re: Robert Anton Wilson

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I'm sick of seeing Robert Anton Wilson when I open Worldly Cesspool. When can this thread be un-stickied, so it can die a normal death?
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