GENIUS FORUMS

Faust wrote:yes HE is involved, and he gets awards for it!! like that stupid movie, Shoah. Instead of reminding Blacks and Native Americans about their persecuted people, he tells them to wail and sob for the poor Jews. Wait wait, WHAT???? grade school history class????!!!! Righttt, I learned that the holocaust could be bullshit and that Zionism is bullshit and that WW2 and Roosevelt and Pearl Harbor was bullshit and the Federal Reserve was bullshit out of your typical American grade school history class, oh brother!!! It's the other way around moron, the other way around.

If Spielberg is guilty of anything it's a jaded upbringing. I know from personal experience that growing up in a predominately Jewish family can leave you incapable of approaching the Holocaust honestly. I went through my obsession with the Holocaust phase, have read various things from Holocaust denials and all I see is a switch from the "Holocaust didn't happen!" clarion call to a more moderate "Well, it happened, but it might not be as bad as we originally thought". I welcome some research on the Holocaust, give me everything you've got and I'll read it or watch it (except the link above, I couldn't even download those videos) because up until now I've never seen anything which persuaded me to change my view.

Hahahaha, once again, genetics inherits traits, abilities, characteristics, etc etc... Genetics isn't aesthetic at all. Why do you think the Negro has never built anything of value on his own continent, and Egypt was caucasian NOT black, it started to crumple when Nubians infested it. Why do you think the Japanese have had major success throughout their history, and the Europeans?? The Indigenous Negro culture was and is nothing compared to the other civilizations, even before colonization. That's why most North American crime is done by blacks even though they're a minority, and have had over 100 years of relative opportunities to do otherwise. IQ also has a huge genetic correlation. Also, aesthetics is important too. Blacks rape 2/3 more white girls than black girls, more people of different races like White girls than other girls. I'm one of them.

Races are largely determined by aesthetic differences between people and they have been historically (the classification existed far before we knew anything about genetics). All you can do is infer intellectual inferiority because there is little, or no, evidence of biological inferiority based on genetics.

once again "Jewish descent" doesn't mean anything, do you look like you're Middle Eastern, Amorite, Caananite? Then will you be closest to an Ethnic Jew. Are you Caucasian though? White? Blonde? European? Asian? Negro? If you aren't Middle Eastern then you're not really from a "Jewish" stock.

Jewish descent means my mother's side of my family is Jewish and has been at least since they came to America (I can't trace my family back before that). They are Jewish in much the same was as my father's side is Irish Catholic and I doubt you're going to find some way to say my ancestors weren't Irish Catholic.

Zionism has indeed tarnished Judaism to the point of no return. The founder of Zionism Theodre Herzl wrote in his diary:

It is essential that the sufferings of Jews. . . become worse. . . this will assist in realization of our plans. . . I have an excellent idea. . . I shall induce anti-semites to liquidate Jewish wealth. . . The anti-semites will assist us thereby in that they will strengthen the persecution and oppression of Jews. The anti-semites shall be our best friends

Zionism used Anti-semitism as a tool

Excuse me if I hold judgment on an entire group of people based on the decisions of part of that group. This is the same argument rabid atheists use to supposedly invalidate Christianity and Islam "If it can spawn these crazy people obviously it's wrong".

Faust wrote:how is it not a sound logical argument?? Zionists have certainly been influenced by the Talmud. And it doesn't do justice to the Real Jews that despise Zionism but have their reputation tarnished. I know that no religious text is worthy, it's just that for some peculiar reason you don't hear anything bad about the Talmud in Western media, except you hear a whole lotta schmuckness from Islam and the Koran, no doubt by Zionists.

It's a useless argument, like a character witness in a trial. Saying someone is capable of murder doesn't prove they killed another person. Saying that the Talmud supposedly allows for the Jewish people to sacrifice large numbers of themselves to get what they want doesn't prove they did it.

Iolaus wrote:I think this is a popular myth. Is it really true? I'd say the rule that you're Jewish if your mother is Jewish is an old matriarchal rule, and also a bit of common sense - you usually can be pretty sure who your mother is. But that was probably meant to apply in the case where the person wanted to be recognized as Jewish.

The point isn't whether or not Judaism claims me as Jewish based on it's own rules, it's whether or not I'd ever be able to not call myself Jewish in the eyes of people who hate and fear Judaism. Even in the eyes of people who don't hare Judaism my minimal connection to the religion makes me Jewish in their eyes. I could probably tell 100 people that my parents are both Jewish and Roman Catholic and for 90 of them I would forever be their "Jewish friend".

Oh, and the reason some people are annoyed about the majority of Jews today coming from the Khazar line, is that their ancestors never lived in the holy land, they converted in the 7th century, and yet they ousted something like 800,000 Palestinians in the 1940's.

Well, I don't think many people consider a two thousand year old connection to Israel as a valid reason for claiming it in the first place so I doubt many get all worked up about most Jewish people not being descended from that geographic location. At least I've never heard anyone make that claim in many discussions on Israel...

Faust wrote:Btw, have you READ the Talmud? It's full of racism and Jewish supremacy, not to mention supporting paedophilia

I love it when people start throwing this claim around...it really makes my day. Do we want to start comparing idiotic things that religious texts condone? There probably isn't a Christian alive who would be welcome in a pure Bible society and why is this do you ask? Most people wear mixed fabrics and that is strictly forbidden!

Chochem,

Excuse me if I hold judgment on an entire group of people based on the decisions of part of that group.

You're right but there's a lot more data available. You might try http://www.savethemales.ca

He's Jewish, and he's onto this stuff. In fact, his parents ran from the Nazis. Besides, no one really thinks that most Jews are in on these machinations. Only the power brokers are.

Saying that the Talmud supposedly allows for the Jewish people to sacrifice large numbers of themselves to get what they want doesn't prove they did it.

But if the Talmud has a lot of items about how other people are to be treated with a completely different ethic than one's own people, and that one's people really deserve to be the rulers of the world, and if that book is held in extremely high regard and studied by the most respected minds in Judaism, it is unrealistic to think it has no relevance in the real world.

Even in the eyes of people who don't hate Judaism my minimal connection to the religion makes me Jewish in their eyes. I could probably tell 100 people that my parents are both Jewish and Roman Catholic and for 90 of them I would forever be their "Jewish friend".

Where do you live? I have the exact same combination you do, but then I rarely need to mention my ethnicity and it only occasionally comes up. Plus, I was raised as a Christian. I don't think anyone considers me Jewish.

Well, I don't think many people consider a two thousand year old connection to Israel as a valid reason for claiming it in the first place so I doubt many get all worked up about most Jewish people not being descended from that geographic location.

Really??? Why are they there, then? They couldn't possibly have picked a worse spot.

I love it when people start throwing this claim around...it really makes my day. Do we want to start comparing idiotic things that religious texts condone? There probably isn't a Christian alive who would be welcome in a pure Bible society and why is this do you ask? Most people wear mixed fabrics and that is strictly forbidden!

Actually, I think it is high time that we start comparing the idiotic things that the Bible, the Koran and theTalmud condone. It is all damaging stuff and not innocent.

Iolaus wrote:What concerns me is the freedom of speech issue. It is shocking that freedom of speech is a thing of the past in several European countries. They are working on it here with the excuse of 'hate laws.' That's the foot in the door and it's all they need.

it sure is.

20 years for holocaust denial! You can do armed robbery, rape and probably murder and get less than that. C'mon, that's a LOT of power. If you can command that, you've got a lot of power. And many 'holocaust deniers' are trying to do rational research. What all this will ultimately cause, is a backlash of antisemitism, because it's oppresssive and unfair.

yup, Jewish history has through the centuries been doing this sort of despicable thing, no wonder people hated them and exiled them..

Someone here said that America was too bigoted to accept Jews in WWII and ended up giving them a miserable piece of sand. I agree about the miserable sand - but that's what they wanted. The zionist movement began in the 1800's and was quite strong by the turn of the century. Political maneuvers by very wealthy Jews created the Balfour declaration. And America accepted tons of Jews just 30-50 years before WWII. Is it really rational to suppose that they would turn them away as refugees such a short time later? And why, if the Jews wanted a homeland so badly, didn't they do like the mormons and run off to Oregon or some such place when it was there for the taking?

Hahahha, America too bigoted?? The Jewish lobby had begun controlling American politics during WW1 and continues to do so. Churchill was an avowed Zionist.

It is neither true that Jews are a race nor a religion. They are tribal and call themselves 'a people.'

did you say this or did Chochem? Judaism is indeed a religion, and nothing but. Calling yourself a "people" doesn't mean anything. the KKK are also a 'people.'

We will have to take them seriously when they can jail us for speaking our opinions. And no, the Jewish holocaust is not a tragedy with few equals. It is a tragedy similar to several others. It's a good think I don't believe the Bible, in which they document their own holocaust, at the command of Jehovah, of other people.

indeed.

From what I understand, the majority of them do come from that line. However, as they originated in an area north of Iraq, they are of more or less middle eastern descent, so how different are they from semites? But today, the real semites are pretty much the Arabs, or Arabic peoples. Which is funny.

They didn't originiate "in an area the north of Iraq." the heart of Eastern Europe is very very far from northern Iraq. There's no evidence at all that the Khazars were a "lost tribe of Israel" if they were they wouldn't have needed to convert to Judaism in the first place. They're most likely from Central Asia and Northern Turkey/Armenia.

Well, if we lose our rights to free speech as may be on the horizon, then we will no longer be able to examine such things. It really is hypocritical, to whine endlessly about how mean everyone has been to them, while having a religion that is almost entirely based upon racial or tribal superiority claims. But that can't be touched because it's religion. I don't necessarily blame Jews for having the Talmud or certain parts of the Bible, but it's way past time to own up to the ugliness it harbors and chalk it up to the ignorance of the times and publicly repudiate it.

yup yup yup. It's in the nature of Judaism to be doing this, don't you know? I remember having a no-good Israeli "art student" come to my door once with his Slave-Morality Cunning Jewish attitude to sell his stupid paintings for 100$ each. Give me a break, he comes all the way here from a grant from his stupid country along with other parasites to be selling me rubbish? This reminded me of when Israeli spies posed as art students in order to infiltrate government positions in America!!!

I think this is a popular myth. Is it really true? I'd say the rule that you're Jewish if your mother is Jewish is an old matriarchal rule, and also a bit of common sense - you usually can be pretty sure who your mother is. But that was probably meant to apply in the case where the person wanted to be recognized as Jewish.

It's a BS arbitrary, rubbish, Tribal-focused, feminine-like, power-mongering rule. Judaism is nothing but a religion, so it makes no sense whatsoever to deny Judaism and yet still be called a Jew, it's just feminine power-mongering.

ChochemV2 wrote:If Spielberg is guilty of anything it's a jaded upbringing. I know from personal experience that growing up in a predominately Jewish family can leave you incapable of approaching the Holocaust honestly. I went through my obsession with the Holocaust phase, have read various things from Holocaust denials and all I see is a switch from the "Holocaust didn't happen!" clarion call to a more moderate "Well, it happened, but it might not be as bad as we originally thought". I welcome some research on the Holocaust, give me everything you've got and I'll read it or watch it (except the link above, I couldn't even download those videos) because up until now I've never seen anything which persuaded me to change my view.

Perhaps Spielberg needs a good slap in the face then. You would think he would be intelligent enough by now to realize this upbringing but I guess not, too many awards to handle. Why weren't you able to watch those videos???? Also, click on the links above on the frontpage (Konrad Morgen | New video: Nazi Shrunken Heads | Thomas Blatt Sobibor Fraud ) that has plenty of information.

http://www.onethirdoftheholocaust.com

also, search "holohoax" on Google, get ready for lots of reading.

Races are largely determined by aesthetic differences between people and they have been historically (the classification existed far before we knew anything about genetics). All you can do is infer intellectual inferiority because there is little, or no, evidence of biological inferiority based on genetics.

Rubbish... Races are determined partly by aesthetics and partly by genetics. What's wrong with aesthetics? It means alot to know that Blacks rape 2/3 more White women than their own race, that says ALOT from a biological standpoint. I'm from Iran and I'm very much biologically attracted to a very certain shade of white skin, I'm not attracted at all to Black or Indigenous or Asian women. We didn't need to know about genetics back then because they realized back then that highly talented, intelligent and smart people with high ability tended to have children of the same sort even if they didn't raise them, that's why monarchies and aristocracies came about. There's plenty of scientific evidence for proving genetic inferiority. There's a reason why Europeans and the Japanese were quickly advancing throughout the centuries while Indigenous Negroes who had plenty of natural resources didn't go anywhere or do anything that animals couldn't do. And why to this day Indigenous Negroes can't seem to work together on their own continent nor be not as corrupt in their own governments. Or still be the largest populations in American ghettos despite a century of freedom.

Jewish descent means my mother's side of my family is Jewish and has been at least since they came to America (I can't trace my family back before that). They are Jewish in much the same was as my father's side is Irish Catholic and I doubt you're going to find some way to say my ancestors weren't Irish Catholic.

wow, this is why "Jewish descent" makes NO SENSE!! Just because your mother was Jewish doesn't mean anything, precisely because Judaism is just a religion, that is all. You are supposed to CHOOSE to be in a religion, right?? Make your OWN MORAL CHOICE about it, not have some stupid rule forcing you to be it, this is why it's so stupid. It's like the KKK were a religion, and if my mom was in the KKK, then I have a KKK descent!!! Makes no sense. This is why genetics is important because you can't choose your genes. Therefore, you are genetically Irish, and "jewish descent" means shit all. I was "raised" a Muslim, now I'm not, therefore there's no "Muslim descent" that is "in" me precisely because it's a social label. Genetics however aren't social, they're actually "in" you.

Excuse me if I hold judgment on an entire group of people based on the decisions of part of that group. This is the same argument rabid atheists use to supposedly invalidate Christianity and Islam "If it can spawn these crazy people obviously it's wrong".

Christianity and Islam spawns crazy people because of the concept of a punishing and wrathful God in the after-life. This jaw-dropping superstitious possibility gives rise to these fundamentalist crazies in the first place. Anyone who believes in superstition above science should not be trusted in the first place. So yes, atheists are right when they denounce all of religion.

ChochemV2 wrote:Saying that the Talmud supposedly allows for the Jewish people to sacrifice large numbers of themselves to get what they want doesn't prove they did it.

It's enough to not trust any member if the Talmud says something like this in the first place. If a big group of people believe in some text that holds such dangerous ideas it's pretty valid not to trust any member, for any religion that does it.

ChochemV2 wrote:The point isn't whether or not Judaism claims me as Jewish based on it's own rules, it's whether or not I'd ever be able to not call myself Jewish in the eyes of people who hate and fear Judaism.

What the hell???!!! Judaism DOES NOT allow for its members to leave the religion, it never does. It's MUCH to do whether you'd be able to NOT call yourself Jewish in front of Jews!! Judaism holds that you will be Jewish for the rest of your life regardless of what you believe, as long as "your mother is Jewish," which means nothing at all.

Well, I don't think many people consider a two thousand year old connection to Israel as a valid reason for claiming it in the first place so I doubt many get all worked up about most Jewish people not being descended from that geographic location. At least I've never heard anyone make that claim in many discussions on Israel...

Yes well Zionists consider a two thousand year connection is a valid reason. So do the so-called Christian Zionists, who believe that the Jews are the "Chosen Ones."

Faust wrote:Perhaps Spielberg needs a good slap in the face then. You would think he would be intelligent enough by now to realize this upbringing but I guess not, too many awards to handle. Why weren't you able to watch those videos???? Also, click on the links above on the frontpage (Konrad Morgen | New video: Nazi Shrunken Heads | Thomas Blatt Sobibor Fraud ) that has plenty of information.

I don't believe many people are capable of honestly assessing their own thoughts and trying to weed out bias. And I don't know why I couldn't watch the videos, none of them would download and there don't seem to be any secondary sources of them.

Rubbish... Races are determined partly by aesthetics and partly by genetics. What's wrong with aesthetics? It means alot to know that Blacks rape 2/3 more White women than their own race, that says ALOT from a biological standpoint.

That doesn't say anything. Aesthetics don't determine biological inferiority and a rape statistic like that is more than likely a social/cultural thing and not biological. I doubt there is a gene in all black men that says "Must...sex...white...women...*drool*" and until someone finds some kind of evidence that any of us are biologically inferior to anyone else races don't mean diddly squat.

There's a reason why Europeans and the Japanese were quickly advancing throughout the centuries while Indigenous Negroes who had plenty of natural resources didn't go anywhere or do anything that animals couldn't do. And why to this day Indigenous Negroes can't seem to work togethe
r on their own continent nor be not as corrupt in their own governments. Or still be the largest populations in American ghettos despite a century of freedom.

The Japanese weren't quickly advancing to anything. They remained feudal until Europeans and Americans showed up and revealed the modern world to them. Even then it took a war to fully bring them into the modern age. Discoveries made by a handful of white men in Europe don't prove that Caucasians are any better than other "races" it just proves that every few hundreds years a brilliant individual would discover something and drag the rest of society along with him (generally not quietly since, if history has shown anything, people hate change).

wow, this is why "Jewish descent" makes NO SENSE!! Just because your mother was Jewish doesn't mean anything, precisely because Judaism is just a religion, that is all. You are supposed to CHOOSE to be in a religion, right?? Make your OWN MORAL CHOICE about it, not have some stupid rule forcing you to be it, this is why it's so stupid.

You simply have no concept of what it's like to be Jewish. Most Jewish communities weren't German, Austrian, Polish, or Russian they were just Jewish. People have been ostracizing Jews for generations so, at least in my family, we don't have any lasting ties to wherever we used to live.

This is why genetics is important because you can't choose your genes. Therefore, you are genetically Irish, and "jewish descent" means shit all. I was "raised" a Muslim, now I'm not, therefore there's no "Muslim descent" that is "in" me precisely because it's a social label. Genetics however aren't social, they're actually "in" you.

Jewish people are genetically different from other people as much as Germans, English, or Chinese are genetically dissimilar to each other. Jewish people are more susceptible to certain diseases, there are physical features which are associated with "Jewishness" and so on.

Christianity and Islam spawns crazy people because of the concept of a punishing and wrathful God in the after-life. This jaw-dropping superstitious possibility gives rise to these fundamentalist crazies in the first place. Anyone who believes in superstition above science should not be trusted in the first place. So yes, atheists are right when they denounce all of religion.

Yes, but you're denouncing an entire people not just the religion. You say that the Judaism itself is poison and therefore it's people can't be trusted. I may not agree with much of anything about Christianity but I'd still trust my neighbors even though I know they are devout Christians.

It's enough to not trust any member if the Talmud says something like this in the first place. If a big group of people believe in some text that holds such dangerous ideas it's pretty valid not to trust any member, for any religion that does it.

That's ridiculous. If there is a group of people who says "We think pedophilia is ok because of the Talmud" (and they do exist) I wouldn't trust them but there are plenty of Jews who don't follow a strict interpretation of the Talmud and would still string up an pedophiliac if he tried to abuse their children.

What the hell???!!! Judaism DOES NOT allow for its members to leave the religion, it never does. It's MUCH to do whether you'd be able to NOT call yourself Jewish in front of Jews!! Judaism holds that you will be Jewish for the rest of your life regardless of what you believe, as long as "your mother is Jewish," which means nothing at all.

You're really not getting this.

Yes well Zionists consider a two thousand year connection is a valid reason. So do the so-called Christian Zionists, who believe that the Jews are the "Chosen Ones."

So a portion of the US population and the majority of worldwide Judaism MIGHT agree that a two thousand year old claim on a piece of land is valid. Say...100 million American Christians and every single person of the 15 million Jews worldwide. That's hardly a majority and it brings up another point which I feel is valid. How can a group which is so vastly outnumbered take over the world?

Faust,

did you say this or did Chochem? Judaism is indeed a religion, and nothing but. Calling yourself a "people" doesn't mean anything. the KKK are also a 'people.'

Me. Definitely it's a religion, but it's also more. The Hebrews were a conglomeration of related tribes. We were all once tribal, but we lost it so long ago we don't remember. If they are just a religion, then would you please tell me my own ethnic background, my nationality? My Dad was English/Irish. My mom is Jewish fom Turkey, Poland, Russia. Am I half Russian? That would be misleading, I think.

They didn't originiate [the khazars] "in an area the north of Iraq." the heart of Eastern Europe is very very far from northern Iraq. There's no evidence at all that the Khazars were a "lost tribe of Israel" if they were they wouldn't have needed to convert to Judaism in the first place. They're most likely from Central Asia and Northern Turkey/Armenia.

I'm not at home and don't have a globe but that whole area is populated by people who have similar physical features. Of course Jews have intermarried but they still do have most people with olive skin, balck hair and black eyes, hairier than most white people. My own family is an exact mix of blue-eyed, blonde Polish Jews (grandmother) and very dark Russian Jews (grandfather) but as I understand they are all more or less Khazarians. Do you consider the people from Turkey to be much different racially from other countries in that region? I don't know about the khazars being a lost tribe, but they might be of similar physical origin, genetic origin, as the many other black haired caucasions such as Arabs, Iranians, Turks, etc. Excuse me if I am ignorant - I'm pretty curious about this and am just going by appearance and geography. All of those areas are reasonably close geographically.

"Judaism as the religion, the feminine Collective Hive Borg, whatever you want to call it is a problem, for it stifles individuality and seperates itself from the rest of humanity, you should really read Weininger's debunking. Ex-Jews are forced to somehow "stay" with it and identify with it if they don't want to. Also,
the religion is bad too, like the rest of the Abrahamic religions, all of them terribly wrong, superstitious and dangerous."

This separation---I don't disagree that it has problematic features---has also been the principal element that allowed Jewish culture and theology and ethics to have such a profound effect on Western culture. You could hate if you wanted to, but you can also admire, a people who made a choice to hold to their identity, to forge that identity. It cost a great deal to do that, and there was more suffering than benefit if you consider the long view. (It is is only relatively recently thsat we Jews get our Jewish Global Conspiracy Cheques, but dammit! this month's was only $34,006.00, whereas last month's was almost $38,000.00!)

Hey, what about the hypothesis (or stone cold fact) that the Jews are a reptilian implant upon the earth? That's an angle worth pursuing, at leasdt I think so. I knew uncle Saul had something funny about him...)

(I don't know how this happens, but it seems that everywhere I turn these days I encounter a great deal of misinformation about Jews and Judaism.)

I have recently come ot this forum, not only am of Jewish decent but identify principally as a Jew, and furthermore think that the essence of Judaism is excellent, and has had a profound and over-all good effect. I think the core of Judaism, which has in many ways transcended classical religiosity, is very worthy.

Anyone can become a Jew, if you want to. And when you become a Jew you join 'a people'. And believe me you can opt out as well. Marx for example was decended from a rabbinical lineage, converted to the religion of his wife, and married her. He was no longer a Jew, nor were his children Jews. They would have to convert to become Jews (again). There are more people opting out of Judaism and Jewishness than are opting in, that's just a fact. It isn't enough to say you are a Jew if you really have no connection with the basis of Judaism, in a few generations the connection will dissolve. (So just relax!)

PS: It is only the hardcore anti-semites who go out of their way to identify people who are of Jewish decent. As I have seen it, if you opt out and, say, marry a non-Jew, your kids are not raised in a Jewish environment and so they don't identify with anything Jewish, culturally or philosophically, and they just don't identify as Jews. It's caled assimilation. That is why there has been a movement to keep parents educating their kids in a Jewish environment.

Any of you fellows know any good Jewish jokes? I know about 300...

Alex Jacob wrote:I think the core of Judaism, which has in many ways transcended classical religiosity, is very worthy.

Hi Alex. Can you explain what you see as that core and its worthiness - and how it transcends classical religiosity?

I am not sure I meant that I thought it 'transcended classical religiosity'---who do you think does that?---it is my opinion however that as a religion it has some very nice features, and these features extend beyond the religious circle that gave birth to them. In that sense, and the sense I describe below, the ideas that spring from Judaism seem to 'transcend religiosity'. Meaning, I guess, that they originated in a religious context but have moved out of a purely religious context. Abraham Heschel and Leo Baeck, when I read them, bring up ideas that seem to trancend traditional religiosity. i.e. become universal, express universal, intuitive values.

Judaism is a wonderful tradition in comparative terms insofar as participation in it requires a great deal of mental skill, mental activity, reasoning skills, language skills, argumentation skills. In no sense of the word do you have to blindly accept too much of anything in Judaism, though there is always (as will all religions) a tendency to orthodoxy and regimentation. In functioning Judaism (like in a yeshiva school setting, for example) you don't just recive ideas, you participate in ideas. If you present an idea you have to present sound reasoning, and you have to reference your ideas. You are allowed and encouraged to argue, disagree, debate, configure and reconfigure. True, the reference is always Torah and later writings, but the same discipline can be expanded from that sole focus, and so there is a demand for intellectual rigor which is desirable.

I think this is a good feature. (One that the Holocaust revisionists use to their advantage, as we note here). (A wee bit of a joke).

I think that it is a good idea for people---any and all people, no matter what their tradition---to think deeply about ethics. Judaism has always been and still is deeply concerend about ethics. To aks these question---what is right and wrong, what does Law mean? who has given Law? (etcetera, etcetera) does not lead to vain results. Jewish culture, with all its imperfections, has always placed a great deal of emphasis on determining laws and rules for the living of life, what you should and should not do, what is 'right', etc. It is true that there is always a deistic shadow, which might bother some or many, but I personally admire certain Jewish theologians for their tenacity in holding to their beliefs, and attempting to interpret this idea that there is a God, a supreme god if you will, who 'commands' that Jews be ethical. I don't in fact see the way this functions as being too different from most other religions, even those with no articulated and concrete 'God', but Jews have always approached their god-problem with real zealousness. It is true that the Abrahamic religions have troubling features, but can you name any religion that doesn't? Everything that humans do, it seems, has troubling features...

The major effect of Judaism in Western culture has been its longterm and overall effect on European culture, an effect that is very real, obvious even, and this effect is still very present in Western culture, in jurisprudence, in common cultural values, animal rights for example, even ecology and other 'hellenic' sciences, and of course the influence that has been exerted through Christianity, which is huge. The notion that we must think about these things and decide about them, one way or the other. I think it is a positive feature. A bad reading of Nietzsche---and they say that so many who read Nietzsche read him badly---leads to the notion that the Jewish influence through its daughter religion (bastard son?) Christianity would best be cut out of Europe and the European traditions (Nazism seemed to take up the idea), but even if one maintained a critical stance of Jewish influence, even if one questioned it and saw it---how was it put? like a Feminine Borg Hive?---it has exerted a strong influence on the West, and in many ways the influence has been positive, that is, affirmative of so many positive things we now hold as values.

Any positive feature or aspect of any people or any tradition will always have a negative side as well, this is just a fact. You could come out with some arguments against the Jewish notion of an external authority, this grand God who has a will and a purpose. Or you could begin to grapple with it all over again in NEW terms, in a new way. Personally, that is my relationship to it (plus I DO love the monthly cheques).

ChochemV2 wrote: And I don't know why I couldn't watch the videos, none of them would download and there don't seem to be any secondary sources of them.

then there's something wrong with your comp/internet, try Windows MP. Also read the links above those videos.

That doesn't say anything. Aesthetics don't determine biological inferiority and a rape statistic like that is more than likely a social/cultural thing and not biological

how can a rape statistic be "social/cultural."???? Fact is that blacks probably like white women more, that says alot. I know a black guy that likes white hair and not curly black hair on a girl.

The Japanese weren't quickly advancing to anything. They remained feudal until Europeans and Americans showed up and revealed the modern world to them. Even then it took a war to fully bring them into the modern age. Discoveries made by a handful of white men in Europe don't prove that Caucasians are any better than other "races" it just proves that every few hundreds years a brilliant individual would discover something and drag the rest of society along with him (generally not quietly since, if history has shown anything, people hate change).

I mentioned the Japanese because although they were isolated, their society was much more advanced than the Indigenous Negro or Native Americans or other Indigenous groups except for South American civilizations. And now with western connections, they have a peculiar talent with technology, however the Negro does not have this skill on average, despite his emancipation. It's not just discoveries by a "handful of white men." These handful contributed a hell of alot, particularly for philosophy. Those brilliant individuals MOSTLY COME FROM Europe, not Indigenous Africa where there wasn't even a good writing system, not even a sailing ship. Europe has produced the best philosophy in the world, and was the hallmark of Individualism. Collectivist Societies like Islam, China, Japan, Tribes, etc etc.. suffer the consequences of punishing those who are smarter than them. Genetics has proven to transmit abilities, personality, intelligence, so of course there's a racial connection.

You simply have no concept of what it's like to be Jewish

Ahahha what is that??? Being pathetic and guilt-ridden???? I'm a fan of Woody Allen`s existential intelligence that's his best quality, but he turns "jewishness" into a virtue instead of an abomination.

Most Jewish communities weren't German, Austrian, Polish, or Russian they were just Jewish. People have been ostracizing Jews for generations so, at least in my family, we don't have any lasting ties to wherever we used to live.

Actually most jewish "food' came from those cultures, such as latkas which aren't inherently Jewish at all but Polish and Hungarian.

Jewish people are genetically different from other people as much as Germans, English, or Chinese are genetically dissimilar to each other. Jewish people are more susceptible to certain diseases, there are physical features which are associated with "Jewishness" and so on.

Actually there's PLENTY of German, Russian, Polish, English, etc.. Jews, that's the irony. These people are just religiously Jewish, not ethnically.

about the Jewish disease:

I have with me, now, a circular that I received in the mail last week, the March of Dimes put it out with the assistance of the Rockefeller Foundation, and they recite the whole thing; because they have found, in recent years, that the Khazars are carriers of a disease that no other people in the world have. Here's the circular that they got out. It's called, "Kasak Disease" (The Jewish Disease - Tay-Sachs). I have known about it for years. The New York News newspaper had a full page on it, called "The Jewish Disease." They explained the whole thing, so I went into it, investigated it, and gave a little money to one or two clinics that were trying to do something about it. The Eastern Europeans, of Khazar ancestry, known as Jews, are carriers of this Kasak disease. When one Khazar marries another Khazar: (I don't say so, Mt. Sinai Hospital, the Jewish Memorial Hospital, the Rockefeller Foundation, they've all done a lot of work on it. They published these figures and these statistics . . .) that one out of four children, when one Khazar marries another Khazar, or of that ancestry, that child can't live beyond three years. And the death that that child suffers is too miserable to describe to you. Out of the others, two of them become carriers, and one is clear.

Now I have maintained, after listening for twenty-six years to every meeting of the United Nations... (I attend, and I sit there, and I hear these representatives of the so-called State of Israel, talk) . . . I've been saying for many years, before I even knew about this, - they must be crazy! How can they say those things before the representatives of 131 other nations? How can they say that? Have they no shame? But, I found out they are suffering from this disease.

From ex-Zionist Benjamin Freedman's speech, you should read the whole thing:

http://www.iamthewitness.com/Freedman1974speech.html

Yes, but you're denouncing an entire people not just the religion. You say that the Judaism itself is poison and therefore it's people can't be trusted. I may not agree with much of anything about Christianity but I'd still trust my neighbors even though I know they are devout Christians.

What "entire people"??? There's plenty of European Jews. So I'm only denouncing an entire religion, not to mention the other Abrahamic religions.

That's ridiculous. If there is a group of people who says "We think pedophilia is ok because of the Talmud" (and they do exist) I wouldn't trust them but there are plenty of Jews who don't follow a strict interpretation of the Talmud and would still string up an pedophiliac if he tried to abuse their children.

How else do you interpet the Talmud??? Like Christains and Muslims where they blatantly ignore all the bad stuff??? Abrahamic religions must perish.

You're really not getting this.

there's nothing to get. Because Judaism does not allow its members to leave, you feel compelled to be part of this thing and therefore defend it because you feel it's part of your identity. If you denounce Judaism, you're either a European or a Middle Eastern or some other ethnicity. You said you were Irish, do you look like you're Irish? Do you look like you're Middle Eastern? It astonishes me how clingy Jews get to their "people" they all want to feel part of this movement that is special and better than everyone else. I once knew an Atheist Jew, yet he turns around and goes back to celebrating Hannukah in the Hive Borg with his other Jewish friends, so he can act "jewish" and pretend to be Moses or something.

How can a group which is so vastly outnumbered take over the world?

Zionists have control of America through AIPAC and other lobbying groups. Bush even kissed the wailing wall wearing a Yamakah, and Hillary Clinton's grandmother is Jewish which "makes her Jewish." Churchill was an avowed Zionist, and the Rothschilds own the Federal Reserve and the Bank of England. It's not hard to make the connections. I don't know how the Talmud doesn't violate traditional Judaism, but it should be called the first Zionist manual.

Iolaus wrote:The Hebrews were a conglomeration of related tribes. We were all once tribal, but we lost it so long ago we don't remember. If they are just a religion, then would you please tell me my own ethnic background, my nationality? My Dad was English/Irish. My mom is Jewish fom Turkey, Poland, Russia. Am I half Russian? That would be misleading, I think.

That's the problem with your so-called lost tribes. We don't even know if such a thing even happened, if it did, how come we don't know what happened to them??? The Khazars were certainly not part of them, because they actually chose to convert to Judaism because they didn't like Paganism. I don't know how you can not see your ethnicity. If you're dad's Irish, then you're part Irish, how can your mother be from 3 different places???? If that's the case, then you're Turkish, Polish, Russian, and Irish, how is this misleading????? Your Jewishness is probably from Khazarian descent, which doesn't make you Middle-Eastern.

I'm not at home and don't have a globe but that whole area is populated by people who have similar physical features. Of course Jews have intermarried but they still do have most people with olive skin, balck hair and black eyes, hairier than most white people

These people are called Middle-Eastern. So there's no way you can tell if you were a "lost tribe of Israel."

My own family is an exact mix of blue-eyed, blonde Polish Jews (grandmother) and very dark Russian Jews (grandfather) but as I understand they are all more or less Khazarians.

Blonde isn't Khazarian I don't think. How the HELL can you have a blonde Jew???? This is why it makes no sense, it's just a religion.

I don't know about the khazars being a lost tribe, but they might be of similar physical origin, genetic origin, as the many other black haired caucasions such as Arabs, Iranians, Turks, etc. Excuse me if I am ignorant - I'm pretty curious about this and am just going by appearance and geography. All of those areas are reasonably close geographically.

Khazars weren't a lost tribe because they converted to Judaism out of tiredness of Paganism, this alone is ample evidence. They were originally phallic worshippers for fuck's sakes.

Alex Jacob wrote:This separation---I don't disagree that it has problematic features---has also been the principal element that allowed Jewish culture and theology and ethics to have such a profound effect on Western culture. You could hate if you wanted to, but you can also admire, a people who made a choice to hold to their identity, to forge that identity. It cost a great deal to do that, and there was more suffering than benefit if you consider the long view. (It is is only relatively recently thsat we Jews get our Jewish Global Conspiracy Cheques, but dammit! this month's was only $34,006.00, whereas last month's was almost $38,000.00!)

what the HELL IS JEWISH CULTURE AND THEOLOGY AND ETHICS???? There's nothing admirable about Judaism, it's not as spiritual as you think, and it has a keen interest in materialism. Haven't you read Weininger??? the fact that there's a "stereotypical Jewish" attitude shows how ridiculous it is. The Jewish identity is quite pathetic, it's just a religion, and all religions are stupid. But the last joke was funny...

Hey, what about the hypothesis (or stone cold fact) that the Jews are a reptilian implant upon the earth? That's an angle worth pursuing, at leasdt I think so. I knew uncle Saul had something funny about him...)

funny, I've never heard of such a thing.

I have recently come ot this forum, not only am of Jewish decent but identify principally as a Jew, and furthermore think that the essence of Judaism is excellent, and has had a profound and over-all good effect. I think the core of Judaism, which has in many ways transcended classical religiosity, is very worthy.

what the HELL is the essence????? Woody Allen has seriously got to get over it, I mean it's only good once in a while, but he turns it into a virtue instead of an abomination.

Anyone can become a Jew, if you want to. And when you become a Jew you join 'a people'. And believe me you can opt out as well. Marx for example was decended from a rabbinical lineage, converted to the religion of his wife, and married her. He was no longer a Jew, nor were his children Jews. They would have to convert to become Jews (again). There are more people opting out of Judaism and Jewishness than are opting in, that's just a fact. It isn't enough to say you are a Jew if you really have no connection with the basis of Judaism, in a few generations the connection will dissolve. (So just relax!)

In a few generations??? From what I know, as long as your mother is Jewish you will remain Jewish regardless of what you believe.

Alex Jacob,

There's nothing ethical, correct, or worth it about the Abrahamic religions. The god fallacy is an old fallacy, and the Problem of Evil, and the Problem of the First Cause debunk religion to be consined into the flames so it will not shed any more blood!!!

There's nothing good about Judaism either. You can argue without it, it's called philosophy. And Jewish ethics is way out of line. Woody Allen seeks to make all the bad qualities of Judaism into virtues instead of abominations. There's nothing ethical about the Talmud, especially that crazy bit about allowing child rape. There's nothing ethical about the Old Testament.

The major effect of Judaism in Western culture has been its longterm and overall effect on European culture, an effect that is very real, obvious even, and this effect is still very present in Western culture, in jurisprudence, in common cultural values, animal rights for example, even ecology and other 'hellenic' sciences, and of course the influence that has been exerted through Christianity, which is huge.

Uhhhhhh?????? Common cultural values??? I like Paganism more than Judaism, it's more realistic and challenging, not to mention more spiritual. Animal rights???? Last time I remembered Judaism and Islam practice cruelty to animals. and coerced circumciscion is not cool. Christianity and Judaism are actually MUCH more different than you think. Christianity is like an overcoming of Judaism, it's a big leap. Weininger called Judaism "cowardly and feminine" whereas Christianity was "courageous and masculine." Nietzsche didn't have the right conception of what Christianity was supposed to be. There's masculine Christianity and a masculine Jesus, which I would consider was originally him, and there's a feminine Jesus which is the modern bastardization.


There's no positive values in Judaism. My former Jewish friend was timid and cowardly and envious, and made up a guilt-ridden, submissive and apologetic nature, all the more reason to strike revenge at me later or use it for cunning purposes. Weininger said, "the Jew smirks at the Good."

Any positive feature or aspect of any people or any tradition will always have a negative side as well

that's why you don't subscribe to tradition or religion.

Or you could begin to grapple with it all over again in NEW terms, in a new way.

why would I need to grapple with it???

plus I DO love the monthly cheques

what are you talking about?

Hi Faust,

That's the problem with your so-called lost tribes. We don't even know if such a thing even happened, if it did, how come we don't know what happened to them???

No, we don't, it was just a thought because I think that Jews, in the main, still carry a lot of middle eastern looking genes.

The Khazars were certainly not part of them, because they actually chose to convert to Judaism because they didn't like Paganism.

Wasn't it a political maneuver? Yes, that's important evidence. I suppose that over the course of more than 1,000 years they could have lost their religion, though. Plus, the lost tribes went out via Babylon, which might have also helped them to lose their religion.

how can your mother be from 3 different places???? If that's the case, then you're Turkish, Polish, Russian, and Irish, how is this misleading?????

My mother's mother is from Polish Jewish stock. Her father's parents were one from Russia, who travelled to Turkey and married there. I think it would be misleading. I have spent most of my life around Russians, and they often ask me if I'm Russian. If I said yes, and they found out my mother was Jewish, they would assume I was trying to hide it.

Your Jewishness is probably from Khazarian descent, which doesn't make you Middle-Eastern.

So who are these Khazarians?

How the HELL can you have a blonde Jew????

Well, no doubt there had to be intermarriage, but yet she had a Jewish nose, which my grandfather does not.

They were originally phallic worshippers for fuck's sakes.

Is there something wrong withthat?

Faust:

If the criterion to judge anything or everything is that it should 'shed blood no longer', I am not at all sure if an attack on the 'Abrahamic Religions' is the sole area to focus in. Blood shed and from the look of it will continue to shed. I am not sure why this happens, but happens it does. It would be a mistake to assume that without Jews, Christians or Islamists that bloodshed would stop all on the sudden. I rather think that we the upright killer apes just like to shed blood...

;-)

It seems to me that any examination of human culture and history can only provide us with a pretty troubled picture, and a troubling picture. You might imply (I have no idea if you are) that the 'cure' for these Abrahamic Religions is...paganism...or any particular 'ism', but from my angle of view I don't see these 'isms' as the cause, though I think I understand the arguments that people bring out against their pet 'ism' peeve---in your case the religions that sprang from Abraham and, if I have perceived you correctly, Jews and Jewish culture, Jewish influence, Jewish ideas, etc. (Fucking Jews!) It seems to me that there can be and is a balanced critical position of Jewish influence, the religion, etc., but at the same time it has to be noted that there is also an irrational strain, a subconscious or unconscious strain...of hatred and fury that is channeled into Jewish hatred. I hope this is not the case with you. There are more pleasant ways to spend one's incarnation.

I don't get the sense that you know or want to know a great deal about Judaism or the Talmud, but if ever you did there are all sorts of sources out there, and the fact is---even if you have only thoughtful contempt or unconscious blind rage for Jews and Judaism---it is a pretty interesting subject. The Talmud is just a long record of commentary on Torah, and there is I am sure all sorts of odd things in it. Do you suppose it is the Talmudic influence that is turnignthe whole world into a pedeophiliac culture that loves to look at teenage pussy over the computer? I am inclined to focus more on certain biological predisposessors...

The influence that seeks---in vain---to rein in that world-wide activity is likely 'Abrahamic' in origin, and also feminist, which in my understanding arose from religious and Abrahamic considerations (eg The Religious Roots of Feminism, in Feminism by Margaret Walters).

In Western culture, there are two notable poles: that which has arisen from the Judeo-Christian, and that which has arisen from the Greek (this is to put it very generally). It is a folly of sorts to try to extricate or unbind them since they are so intertwined in Western thought, but if this is your penchant I wish you 'godspeed' with no pun intended. I studied and still study philosophy so I think I grasp the implication of what you have written, yet I recognize that in Western culture it would be very difficult to separate out the influence of Judeo-Christianity. It is not my personal purpose or mission to defend Judaism or any religion or metaphysic, but it has been my interest to understand them, and to discover in them what are redeeming features, and as I said there are many redeeming features in Judaism, and I named a few because someone asked my opinion. I could also come up with a critique of the Abrahamic Religions, just for the record. But in the briefest terms---and this idea did not originate with me---the culture of Christianity is intimately connected with Judaism and is not a separate entity. It is a similar and not a dissimilar entity, so these characterizations of 'feminine' vs. 'masculine' don't hae a great deal of weight, at least in my view. I guess I accept the idea that with the Holy Roman Empire, which conquered and controlled what we now know as Europe, the culture of Europe as we know it came to be formed. One could critique it endlessly, and discover and explain every evil of the Abrahamic influence down to the last cup of tea, but none of this changes what was, and what now is. Just as there are many unappealing features to what was and what is, there are a myriad of positive features, and anyway this is what we are, this is what has produced us, and when it is all said and done and from some future vantage point, someone will look back on it and marvel at its achievments and duly note all its failures. But a focus on what is failed and what is 'wrong' or imperfect seems merely stupid to me.

I don't know what you think of Dr Jung (who was not Jewish and whose views of Jews is not altogether favorable) but he seemed to feel that the Roman civilizing influence, with the inculcation of Christianity, enabled Europe to be what it is, which is a remarkable and notable thing, and that when you strip away the religious underpinning or understructure, it reverts and reveals some unsavory aspects---not the least of which, in his view, was Nazism. It s a reductive idea because it is too broad, obviously, but it can lead to some thinking on the issue, some productive thinking. I don't think Jung (as one example) would ever have played off the Judeo-Christian pole against the Hellenic pole, and he was quite versed in each, but if this suits some purpose of yours, have at it!

Woody Allen is not Jews nor Judaism. Woody Allen is an entertainer and a New Yorker. It is wise to keep that in mind: entertainers entertain and they come up with a shtick with which to entertain, and they make money doing it. There are Jewish theologians and philosophers that have a great deal to say about Judaism and the effect of monotheism.

'Paganism' is just too vague a term, IMO. The major traditions that have informed people in the West are intellectual, and there is really no intellectual tradition associated with paganism. Paganism can be anything, from New Age witchcraft to Santeria. They are not intellectual traditions that have given birth to intellectual formulation, not at all comparable to some of the big players: Judaism, Christianity, Islam, the Eastern traditions, etc. This is not in any sense to diss 'paganism' or any of those methods or practices---I lived in Venezuela for 5 years and studied the Afro-Cuban traditions there---but they are just not comparable. Paganism when it presents itself intellectually simply enters the stage that was formed by the other major traditions, it participates along with them but in a territory defined by them.

The biggest challenge, it seems to me, is living an ethical life and in this crazy world teetering on disasters I tend to think this is the biggest challenge: How to be ethical? What decisions to make? How to live? What to do and what not to do? Maybe you see it differently...

The Jesus of the Sermon on the Mount---was that the feminine or the masculine Jesus? What is the most important feature of the message of this personage Jesus? How would you describe it?

If you don't subscribe to tradition or religion, what do you subscribe to? I am carefully ignoring your more outrageous assertions about Judaism because I don't think you have really examined it (and I'd be glad to recommend a few sources if you'd like), but just what do you subscribe to? and on what basis do you present this to others? You seem to have strong feelings, I'd like to know what you think.

I said that I am grappling with it, I didn't way you had to do anything. It is my view that in Christianity and in Judaism, those religions who are bound up with the idea that God is a sort of external authority who has given commands to mankind (and that is one of the primary features) the issue needs to be grappled with, but in a new and even radical way. And in that we share a similarity or an agreement: we can do that through the medium of philosophy and conversation.

True, it may in the end be more or less futile, but we can entertain some 'Tragic Hope' that it might be beneficial.

PS: You ask: "How the HELL can you have a blonde Jew????"

It is very, very simple. Listen closely. Judaism is a religion, but it is also a people, a group. Anyone can join and become a member, and there is of course the famous story of Ruth, who decided, consciously, to join the people and the religion. You could be Chinese, or a goddamed Martian, and you could become a Jew. And if you joined, became a Jew and you were a woman, any offspring of yours would legally be Jewish. Legally. But that doesn't mean you would necessarily have a place within a given Jewsih community. (For example I have many extraterrestrial Jewish female friends whose (strange) offspring are just not accepted down at the synagog. I don't have such prejudices against little slime green kids with three eyes and antennas, but the world is just stuck sometimes! Sadly, they are shunned...

Jews migrated of course, that is one major aspect of their history, as a result of exile from Judea (the Diaspora), and wherever they went they took in people from the surrounding culture, and so took on physical aspects. Thusly you have Ethiopian Jews who are Black, and of course European Jews who are light-skinned, with colored eyes, etc.

The question hinges around definition, self-definition. But then the surrounding culture also participates in this project of definition.

Capiche?

Iolaus wrote:No, we don't, it was just a thought because I think that Jews, in the main, still carry a lot of middle eastern looking genes.

which makes it even more complicated. just cause you're middle eastern looking doesn't mean you're from "Israel." Abraham said, "the land between Egypt and the Euphrates" that's pretty fucking vague, totally out of whack with the modern "Israel."

My mother's mother is from Polish Jewish stock. Her father's parents were one from Russia, who travelled to Turkey and married there. I think it would be misleading. I have spent most of my life around Russians, and they often ask me if I'm Russian. If I said yes, and they found out my mother was Jewish, they would assume I was trying to hide it.

Then you're Polish, Turkish and Russian. There's nothing misleading about it. Being "Jewish" means shit all. It's just a religion, and just because you look middle eastern doesn't mean anything either, since that could be anywhere in the middle-east. I don't think there's much distinction between a Jew and an Arab. They're both Amorites, Caananites, etc...

So who are these Khazarians?

it's debated. it's a good possibility they're from Central Asia and Turkey. Either way they aren't a tribe of Israel, that's for sure.

Well, no doubt there had to be intermarriage, but yet she had a Jewish nose, which my grandfather does not.

..... There's gentiles with "Jewish noses" and there's Jews with Gentile noses.

Is there something wrong withthat?

no, it just proves that they weren't at all from Jewish descent or a tribe of Israel.

Alex Jacob wrote:If the criterion to judge anything or everything is that it should 'shed blood no longer', I am not at all sure if an attack on the 'Abrahamic Religions' is the sole area to focus in. Blood shed and from the look of it will continue to shed. I am not sure why this happens, but happens it does. It would be a mistake to assume that without Jews, Christians or Islamists that bloodshed would stop all on the sudden. I rather think that we the upright killer apes just like to shed blood...

I'm sure there would be MUCH Less bloodshed if the Abrahamic religions didn't exist.

It seems to me that there can be and is a balanced critical position of Jewish influence, the religion, etc., but at the same time it has to be noted that there is also an irrational strain, a subconscious or unconscious strain...of hatred and fury that is channeled into Jewish hatred. I hope this is not the case with you. There are more pleasant ways to spend one's incarnation.

Judaism is characterized by cowardliness and cunning submissiveness. It also lacks in spiritual development and concerns itself with materialism. You should read Weininger's refutation then comment on it. I brought up paganism because it has much more realistic and productive attitudes, without the bloodshed part of course, than Judeo-Christianity. Camille Paglia's quote says it well:

A pagan education would sharpen the mind, steel the will, and seduce the senses. Our philosophy should be both contemplative and pugilistic, admitting aggression (as Christianity [consequently Judaism] does not) as central to our mythology. The beasts of passion must be confronted, and the laws of nature understood. Conflict cannot be avoided, but perhaps it can be confined to a mental theater.

The Talmud is just a long record of commentary on Torah, and there is I am sure all sorts of odd things in it. Do you suppose it is the Talmudic influence that is turnignthe whole world into a pedeophiliac culture that loves to look at teenage pussy over the computer? I am inclined to focus more on certain biological predisposessors...

the Talmud says that it is alright to rape a 3 year old because they become a virgin again since they're so young. the Talmud is a racial supremicist, that seeks to destroy the Goyim and exploit them. I'm surprised you haven't picked this up.

Jewish ritual murder is distinctly Talmudic:

http://www.heretical.com/miscella/jrm.html
http://www.jrbooksonline.com/schramm/schramm.htm

The influence that seeks---in vain---to rein in that world-wide activity is likely 'Abrahamic' in origin, and also feminist, which in my understanding arose from religious and Abrahamic considerations (eg The Religious Roots of Feminism, in Feminism by Margaret Walters).

what??

the culture of Christianity is intimately connected with Judaism and is not a separate entity. It is a similar and not a dissimilar entity, so these characterizations of 'feminine' vs. 'masculine' don't hae a great deal of weight, at least in my view.

modern Christianity has turned Jesus into a feminine and jewish character: meek, submissive, compassionate, etc etc... He was in reality masculine, warrior, unsympathetic, etc etc.. there's a big difference.

at the Roman civilizing influence, with the inculcation of Christianity, enabled Europe to be what it is, which is a remarkable and notable thing

what remarkableness???? The Templar Knights were 'Christians,' yet were the first multi-national, imperial, terrorist corporation.

Woody Allen is not Jews nor Judaism.

ha, let`s see what Wikipedia has to say about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_humor

Wikipedia is a Zionist organization by the way, hiding all the Zionist crimes and spreading propaganda.

there is really no intellectual tradition associated with paganism.

I consider hinduism, buddhism, and Greek paganism to have good knowledge about the psychology of the sexes, and both have some good philosophical knowledge about Reality. They surely aren't complete but they have their gems. Paglia's quote above can sum up many things. Living as a pagan, is much more realistic and beautiful and honest, than living as an Abrahamite.

God is a sort of external authority who has given commands to mankind (and that is one of the primary features) the issue needs to be grappled with, but in a new and even radical way.

Much of "God's" rules are outdated, viscious and disgusting. From Judaism's circumcision to Islam's brutal draconian punishments. I can never respect a God who is indifferent to the suffering of innocent people at the hands of others, or of nature. There's no reasonable explanation for such malice, especially not 'heaven.' or 'original sin'

It is very, very simple. Listen closely. Judaism is a religion, but it is also a people, a group.

that's because religion generally is also a group and a people.

Anyone can join and become a member, and there is of course the famous story of Ruth, who decided, consciously, to join the people and the religion. You could be Chinese, or a goddamed Martian, and you could become a Jew. And if you joined, became a Jew and you were a woman, any offspring of yours would legally be Jewish. Legally. But that doesn't mean you would necessarily have a place within a given Jewsih community.

This is why Judaism makes no sense!!!!! If ANYONE can become a member, then the whole "lost tribes of Israel" goes down the shitter!!! Also, how in the FUCK did such a BULLSHIT ARBITRARY RULE as having your mother being Jewish come into existence???? Religion is about choosing God out of your own freewill, not some RETARDED RULE AS THAT!!!!!! WTF does LEGALLY even mean in religion?????

Jews migrated of course, that is one major aspect of their history, as a result of exile from Judea (the Diaspora), and wherever they went they took in people from the surrounding culture, and so took on physical aspects. Thusly you have Ethiopian Jews who are Black, and of course European Jews who are light-skinned, with colored eyes, etc.

We don't even know if such a migration even happened. Not only that, but they are destroying their genetic line of Jacob if they "take in people from the surrounding culture." In those terms, the lost tribes of Israel doesn't MEAN ANYTHING and has now practically vanished. Yet Israel accepts ANYONE who is a legal Jew, this could be ANYONE, an ethnic Australian who is a "Jew" would be termed "part of the lost tribe" and can come into Israel!!!! That's how RETARDED this bullshit is, nothing but a big criminal joke. Also, I'm aware that there are Gentile Jews that don't look middle-eastern at all.

The question hinges around definition, self-definition. But then the surrounding culture also participates in this project of definition.

There is no Individual Jew, only the Borg Jew. Like I said, I had a jewish friend who claimed he was atheist, yet he turns around and participates in all the rubbish religious ceremonies with that happy feminine Jewish disposition,"ahhh there's no one like my Jewish brothers, gather around Jews!! We are the persecuted ones!! Yay Hannukah!!"[/quote]

How to spot a Jew camouflaged in Jesus’s robes

I can’t believe the magnitude of ignorance on this subject by the religiously herdish.

Stupid Jews.

How you can sit there, Alex JACOB, basking in supposed glorified virtues of Judaism and Christianity missing the whole point of the thing is beyond me. Do you just sort of ignore as insignificant such aspects of the Torah and the Old Testament as this (excerpt courtesy KJV):

Paganism

Exd 15:11 Who [is] like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who [is] like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful [in] praises, doing wonders?

Exd 15:12 Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them.

Exd 15:13 Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people [which] thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided [them] in thy strength unto thy holy habitation.

Exd 15:14 The people shall hear, [and] be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Palestina.

In Genesis, Jacob (the pretty son) deceives Isaac at the behest of his mother--Esau being Isaac’s favourite, and Jacob Rebekah’s--and, in so doing, attains what was Esau‘s (the warrior/protector son) birthright. Jacob is a thief and a liar, encouraged into such an action by the wife and mother of those whom he would deceive! Why do you choose to distance yourself from such a core teaching when this is the very ancestral lineage, your heritage and legacy, you make claim to as a Jew? Why, whilst your fellow Jews and Judeo-Christians wage war upon the sons of Ishmael, accusations of evil-doing dripping from the haunting and hypocritical tongues of the same ancestry you seek to claim? How, as a Jew, will you distance yourself from this aspect of your character, whilst your brethren in Israel continue to mow down a line of Esau’s descendants in your name and the name of a god who would turn you against your own father and blood brother?

Isaac would be turning in his grave, and you bear no shame or remorse upon your face for it.

Leyla, how come your very insightful and comical post was titled "Paganism: 'Western' Hubris & Foreign Policy? Are you accusing Paganism for this problem? Let me guess, that old Testament bit "among the gods" is distinctly pagan because it seeks to turn man into god?

Hello Faust,

which makes it even more complicated. just cause you're middle eastern looking doesn't mean you're from "Israel." Abraham said, "the land between Egypt and the Euphrates" that's pretty fucking vague, totally out of whack with the modern "Israel."

I think you misunderstood me. First, when I said we were all tribal, I did not mean 'we' as in 'we Jews' with whom I have never really identified. I meant 'we' human beings - the tribe is the human social organization from which nations and civilizations arose. The Jews, unlike most people in civilization, have held onto their tribal identity. No one thinks the American Indians were genetically very different from one another, but they had separate tribes and languages.

I never said I was middle eastern looking. I have brown eyes, but I pass for white
: D

Then you're Polish, Turkish and Russian. There's nothing misleading about it. Being "Jewish" means shit all. It's just a religion, and just because you look middle eastern doesn't mean anything either, since that could be anywhere in the middle-east. I don't think there's much distinction between a Jew and an Arab. They're both Amorites, Caananites, etc...

I wouldn't mind, but I just don't think that's true.

Agreed, Jews and Arabs are similar and both semites. What do you consider the Iraqis or Iranians to be? Middle eastern but not semitic?

This is why Judaism makes no sense!!!!! If ANYONE can become a member, then the whole "lost tribes of Israel" goes down the shitter!!! Also, how in the FUCK did such a BULLSHIT ARBITRARY RULE as having your mother being Jewish come into existence???? Religion is about choosing God out of your own freewill, not some RETARDED RULE AS THAT!!!!!! WTF does LEGALLY even mean in religion?????

See, if Judaism were only a religion, there would not be concern about lineage. I already explained why the mother was important - it was becauase paternity is in doubt but maternity is not. I think that rule is overblown. If you want to be Jewish, and your of mixed lineage or doubtful lineage, you can be considered Jewish if at least your maternal lineage is known. Jews don't get a lot of converts, but are you really surprised that anyone can convert? Can't be a rabbi, though, unless they marry into the Cohen lineage. But then, that's true of them all, or is that rule still valid?

I'm not sure why the idea of the Jews being a tribe bothers you so much. It isn't really that important. For example, is there anything terribly cohesive about being French or English? They are all mixed up to one extent or another. Would you consider the gypsies a people?