Sue Hindmarsh wrote:The whole thing becomes quizzical when you try and isolate each piece of information in an effort to explain the whole. But one’s mind naturally looks at the pieces of information in an effort to do just that.
Well, I feel it's rational to assume that every element is relevant, otherwise it wouldn't be mentioned. If there were random elements in there, then it would render the whole thing totally arbitrary.
But perhaps its meaning is as simple as the outsider coming to see Buddha with his idea about the Infinite, and Buddha, by his silence, giving him the nod. If that’s the case – then that’s that. The outsider’s “I do not ask about the spoken or the unspoken†is a lesson about resting easy with this fundamental, though for most, paradoxical truth - that things (including the self) exist, but not inherently.
The horse and whip reference may be describing the outsider’s final acceptance of this undeniable truth.
Matt Gregory wrote:Hehe, oh sorry! I didn't realize I was misunderstanding you. To make it more accessible, is my guess.
Or maybe it's two koans in one, each clarifying in different ways.
This is the kind of redundancy I meant, and I did not think that koans were redundant - but paradoxical instead.
I'm not sure what you mean. Everything in Buddhism is redundant in the sense that all the teachings are about one thing.
Matt Gregory wrote:By "good horse" he was saying that the guy was well trained in spiritual discipline.
I would go along with that if not for the fact that the guy was an outsider. Think for a moment of what an outsider is (outside of what? Outside of the monastic setting? Outside of Buddhism?), and tell me how an outsider could be well trained in spiritual discipline.
He knew who and what the Buddha was, and herdly people are always fawning over famous people just because they are famous, and having fantasies about encounters with some particular famous person, but I don't see how an outsider could be so well trained in spiritual discipline that just seeing the Buddha would be enough to open his mind, or see his own mind. An insider, yes, but not an outsider.
Well, the goal of Buddhism is awakening to ultimate, universal truth. So, in Buddhism, you don't need to be a Buddhist to become enlightened. That's why it combined so easily with Taoism to create the school of Zen because they were both striving for the same thing, even though there was otherwise nothing in common between the two.
He could have also read the Buddha's face that he was about to feel the whip if he didn't go away immediatly.
Well, the Buddha never verbally abused anyone. He was always a pleasant natured character that everybody loved.
Jamesh wrote:Thanks for explaining more of your thoughts in your second response to me Matt,
Yeah, I figured that first one didn't explain much, but it explained everything to me at the time.
not that I really agree - but for these no aggreement is required.
It's cool.
I really have no time for koans - they remind me of what bible study is probably like (never been to one).
I think a small percentage of these koans may be useful during mediation, but apart from that I have no interest in them. Reading the link Eliz posted just turned me off more.
That article had a lot of misconceptions in my opinion.
Yeah, I don't think Zen koans are all that important, but I think the technique of thinking about a teaching until you get it is important. Serious monks would think about one single koan for two or three years in certain cases.
Deep thinking is the only way to really get anywhere in philosophy. People read things like the Tao Te Ching as if it were a newspaper or something, but you won't get anything out of it reading it like that. You want to give it time to dig things up from your own understanding. Same goes for any wise writing. That's what I've been working on lately is learning to be patient enough to read like that.
Following on from your thinking, Matt, when one first looks at a philosophical question, it appears very koan-ish. That is, while trying to nut out the truth about a concept there is much confusion, and ones thoughts seem somewhat nonsensical and often paradoxical. You seem to be getting nowhere fast. But, in time (a moment, a day, a month, or a lifetime) the pieces begin to fall into place, and this knowledge that once appeared alien to you, now becomes part of you yourself.
Yes, the only way to “really get anywhere in philosophy†is to have an all consuming passion for a life of thought that is directed towards Truth.
Sue Hindmarsh wrote:Following on from your thinking, Matt, when one first looks at a philosophical question, it appears very koan-ish. That is, while trying to nut out the truth about a concept there is much confusion, and ones thoughts seem somewhat nonsensical and often paradoxical. You seem to be getting nowhere fast. But, in time (a moment, a day, a month, or a lifetime) the pieces begin to fall into place, and this knowledge that once appeared alien to you, now becomes part of you yourself.
To me it seems like a bunch of random mental associations at first. They kind of swarm your mind for awhile. They eventually settle down and you're left with nothing. That's when it really starts to feel like work.
Yes, the only way to “really get anywhere in philosophy†is to have an all consuming passion for a life of thought that is directed towards Truth.
Yeah, philosophy without Truth is like a walk around the block and then proclaiming that walking is useless because you ended up back home.
Could there be a more rich and joyous life?
Well, I have my ups and downs but I would much rather be on the joyful side of the tracks than the side I was on before I started thinking. A little bit of mental stability goes a long way.
At Savatthi. Standing to one side, a certain devata of stunning beauty spoke this verse in the presence of the Blessed One:
"Is there a person somewhere in the world
Who is restrained by a sense of shame,
One who draws back from blame
As a good horse does from the whip?"
[The Blessed One:]
"Few are those restrained by a sense of shame
Who fare always mindful;
Few, having reached the end of suffering,
Fare evenly amidst the uneven."
~ Samyutta Nikaya
I originally posted case 65 thinking that it was a koan that was fairly context free, but I guess not.
Appearing without form, filling the ten directions of space, expanding everywhere equally; responding without mind, extending over lands and seas without trouble; understanding three when one is raised, judging grains and ounces at the glance of an eye. Even if the blows of your staff fall like rain and your shouts are like thunder rolling, still you have not yet filled the footsteps of a transcendent man. But tell me, what is the business of a transcendent man? Try to see.
CASE
An outsider asked the Buddha, "I do not ask about the spoken or the unspoken." (1) The World Honored One remained silent. (2) The outsider sighed in admiration and said, "The World Honored One's great kindness and great compassion have opened up my clouds of illusion and let me gain entry." (3)
After the outsider had left, Ananda asked the Buddha, "What did the outsider realize, that he said he had gained entry?" (4) The Buddha said, "Like a good horse, he goes as soon as he sees the shadow of the whip." (5)
NOTES
(1) Although he is not a member of the household, still he has a bit of a fragrant air. Twin swords fly through space. It's lucky he doesn't ask.
(2) Do not slander the World Honored One; his voice is like thunder. No one sitting or standing here could move him.
(3) A sharp fellow--one push and he rolls, a bright pearl in a bowl.
(4) He can't avoid making others doubt; still he wants everyone to know. He is trying to repair a pot with cold iron.
(5) Tell me, what do you call the shadow of the whip? Striking with my whisk, (I say) on the staff there is an eye bright as the sun. If you want to know if it is real gold, see it through fire. Having gotten a mouth, eat.
VERSE
The wheel of potential has never turned;
If it turns, it will surely go two ways.
A clear mirror is suddenly leaned on a stand,
And immediately distinguishes beautiful and ugly.
Beautiful and ugly distinct, the clouds of illusion open.
In the gate of compassion, where is any dust produced?
Thus I think of a good horse seeing the whip's shadow:
Gone a thousand miles in pursuit of the wind, I call him back;
Calling, if I get him to return, I'd snap my fingers thrice.
I won't teach a man who is not eager to learn; nor will I explain to one incapable of forming his own ideas. Nor have I anything more to say to those who, after I have made clear one corner of the subject, cannot deduce the other three.
