To give god meaning.

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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elderwoodxxx
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Re: To give god meaning.

Post by elderwoodxxx »

Sue Hindmarsh wrote:elderwoodxxx wrote:


Quote:
perceptions are wonderful things ;-)

Pedophiles perceive children as sexually desirable. What is "wonderful" about that?
elderwoodxxx wrote:
perceptions are wonderful things ;-)
Pedophiles perceive children as sexually desirable. What is "wonderful" about that?
This was the original quote in context:
elderwoodxxx wrote:To be anything, means that you can be what another desires.. what another desires however is usually ego derived. That is all i meant.. perceptions are wonderful things ;-)
amandaxxx
Note i did say what another desires is usually EGO derived through SELFISHness. I was not talking about immorality, that was your perception of my assertion..a classic example! Perceptions are subjective to each individual. To be objective in relation to the whole means perceiving ALL in relation to ALL as ONE.
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elderwoodxxx
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Re: To give god meaning.

Post by elderwoodxxx »

brokenhead wrote:Hey Hodges - Amanda's using capital I now!
That IS neither here or there, empty words gain you nothing spiritually.. If you want an adult conversation in relation to the topic then feel free to go ahead. If not why are you here?

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brokenhead
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Re: To give god meaning.

Post by brokenhead »

Sue Hindmarsh wrote:My description of the Christian god as “The Grandfather in the Sky” comes from observing the psychological relationship Christian’s have with their god.
It's a minor criticism, I know, but the plural of a noun doesn't take an apostrophe. I know you are trying to sound erudite, so I'm just trying to help.
Keeping god and man as separate identities allows the Christian to fulfill their emotional desire for a protector – a parent. In young children, such a desire can be understood and accepted. But in adults, it is clearly a case of arrested development.
You sound like a Fascist. And you have entirely misunderstood the many and varied processes by which a person with faith - not just a Christian - comes by that faith and understanding. This, however, is in keeping with your overall lack of analytical abilities. For instance, you seem to miss the fact that faith often comes at a later stage of a person's development with many stages preceding it, and therefore cannot be considered stunted growth.

And what is it with your mixing up grammatical number ("...allows the Christian [singular] to fulfill their [plural] emotional desire...") Where you home schooled or something?
Therefore, my description of their god as, "The Grandfather in the Sky" is true, for it accords with the Christian psychology.
But if I am a Christian, as you say, and I tell you that your view does not accord with my view, then you must be incorrect about this. Surely you can follow that. And as you are not a Christian, I would necessarily have a superior understanding of the Christian "psychology" as you arrogantly put it. Therefore, I must be more correct than you are when I state that your assessment of something of which you have no firsthand knowledge reflects more on youself. That is, I suspect you are the one with "arrested" or stunted development.

But this is something anyone who reads these threads would deduce for himself. You seem incapable of perceiving how ignorant your writing sounds. For example, when you proclaim that "the Christian does this or that" or "the Christian is like this or that," it is much the same as if you were to write "the Jew only concerned with money" or "the Negro can run faster because he has an extra bone in his ankle..." (Only you, of course, with your home-schooling, would have said "...because they have an extra bone in their ankles...")

One more time for your benefit, Sue, and read it slowly so you get it: making sweeping generalizations about something you know little about just has the effect of making you look ignorant. Perhaps you should avoid the practice? Or, more likely, you cannot avoid the practice because you are ignorant?
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Re: To give god meaning.

Post by Kevin Solway »

brokenhead wrote:
Sue wrote:Therefore, my description of their god as, "The Grandfather in the Sky" is true, for it accords with the Christian psychology.
But if I am a Christian, as you say, and I tell you that your view does not accord with my view, then you must be incorrect about this.
Your personal view may be fundamentally different to every other Christian on the planet, but I doubt that it is.

One of the benefits to believing in an all-powerful conscious being is that it gives one a sense of meaning (in a warped kind of way), and it gives one a feeling of security that someone is looking after you (also in a warped kind of way), and that there is some kind of ultimate justice in the world (a warped kind of justice). All of this accords with the "Grandfather in the Sky". So the way I see it, brokenhead, you don't have a case.
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Re: To give god meaning.

Post by Steven Coyle »

Uh. Wrong interpretation. Boy named Sue devoid of Anima.

Kinda not talking to myself.
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Re: To give god meaning.

Post by brad walker »

brokenhead wrote:And what is it with your mixing up grammatical number ("...allows the Christian [singular] to fulfill their [plural] emotional desire...") Where you home schooled or something?
Many use "their" as a singular pronoun, rather than a gender pronoun or one of the other constructions like "hir". I'm surprised she didn't use "her" there.
Wikipedia, Singular they wrote:The use of masculine generic nouns and pronouns in written and spoken language has decreased since the 1960s. In a corpus of spontaneous speech collected in Australia in the 1990s, "singular" they had become the most frequently used generic pronoun.
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Re: To give god meaning.

Post by brokenhead »

Kevin Solway wrote:
brokenhead wrote:
Sue wrote:Therefore, my description of their god as, "The Grandfather in the Sky" is true, for it accords with the Christian psychology.
But if I am a Christian, as you say, and I tell you that your view does not accord with my view, then you must be incorrect about this.
Your personal view may be fundamentally different to every other Christian on the planet, but I doubt that it is.
Kevin, you are making my case for me. Thanks, but no thanks, I don't need your help. She is telling me the way Christians think. I am saying she is wrong, and that being a Christian, I know better than she does and therefore my view is more valid. Now, you, genius, could have said, "Brokenhead, your view does not represent all Christians and therefore your view is not any more valid than Sue's." Instead, you say, in effect, "Your view is not fundamentally different to every other Christian on the planet." Therefore, you concede that I am, in fact, more qualified than either of you to speak for "every other Christian," since I am one, and neither of you are. BTW, even I don't make the claim that I speak for "every other Christian," simply that neither of you do, and your view is necessarily less accurate that mine could possibly be.

What gives either of you the right or the authority to say what "every Christian" believes?
One of the benefits to believing in an all-powerful conscious being is that it gives one a sense of meaning (in a warped kind of way), and it gives one a feeling of security that someone is looking after you (also in a warped kind of way), and that there is some kind of ultimate justice in the world (a warped kind of justice). All of this accords with the "Grandfather in the Sky". So the way I see it, brokenhead, you don't have a case.
Well, you can use the word "warped" a thousand times, Kevin, and it wouldn't give you the authority or knowledge you lack. You are provincial and ignorant and proud of it. I am trying to help you be less so by disabusing you of your childish and unwarranted misconceptions and prejudices, yet you refuse to listen. And by the way, I had you pegged for someone who was more openminded than Sue, but I see you are every bit as shielded and ignorant as she seems to be.

Why can you not see how small minded you are being? I speak from authority on this subject and you insist on maintaining your fallacies.

FYI, the Jew is no more concerned with fiscal matters than the gentile, and the Negro does not have an extra bone in his ankle. Any other inane prejudices you wany me to debunk for you? You asswipes should be ashamed of yourselves.
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Re: To give god meaning.

Post by brokenhead »

brad walker wrote:
brokenhead wrote:And what is it with your mixing up grammatical number ("...allows the Christian [singular] to fulfill their [plural] emotional desire...") Where you home schooled or something?
Many use "their" as a singular pronoun, rather than a gender pronoun or one of the other constructions like "hir". I'm surprised she didn't use "her" there.
Wikipedia, Singular they wrote:The use of masculine generic nouns and pronouns in written and spoken language has decreased since the 1960s. In a corpus of spontaneous speech collected in Australia in the 1990s, "singular" they had become the most frequently used generic pronoun.
Yeah, brad, if you had read my entire diatribe, you would have picked up on what was really bothering me about Sue's post. It was her use of the term "the Christian." She could have said "many Christians" instead: not only would her sentence have been less demeaning, but it would have been grammatically correct as well.

Again, I sense here that people feel it is all right to demean Christians, but would disagree in the strongest terms if it were some other group spoken of in such a disparaging manner. "The Australian is is typically a boor, with an inferiority complex at not being properly British, raised to be ill-mannered as a result of coming from a sub-standard stock of criminals and other societal castoffs from across the British Empire."
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Re: To give god meaning.

Post by Carl G »

Kevin Solway wrote: Your personal view may be fundamentally different to every other Christian on the planet, but I doubt that it is.
Kevin, Brokenhead is correct, it is very bad form to lump every Christian on the planet into one group holding the very same beliefs. It is illogical, and thus unwise.
One of the benefits to believing in an all-powerful conscious being is that it gives one a sense of meaning (in a warped kind of way), and it gives one a feeling of security that someone is looking after you (also in a warped kind of way), and that there is some kind of ultimate justice in the world (a warped kind of justice). All of this accords with the "Grandfather in the Sky". So the way I see it, brokenhead, you don't have a case.
So what if it is one of the benefits? You do not make a case that this is the prime motive of Brokenhead -- or any particular percentage of Christians. You just throw it out there like it proves something. Very poor reasoning! More like simple prejudice showing through, I would guess.
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Re: To give god meaning.

Post by Carl G »

Steven Coyle wrote:Uh. Wrong interpretation. Boy named Sue devoid of Anima.

Kinda not talking to myself.
The 60s weren't kind to you, were they, man.
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Re: To give god meaning.

Post by Steven Coyle »

nothing I can't cure with a little rubbing alcohol.
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Re: To give god meaning.

Post by Alex Jacob »

Did anyone here ever read Sartre's 'No Exit'? It has a great deal of relevance to these bleak and fruitless disputes, insofar as the essential idea is l'infer, c'est les autres, hell is other people. You don't have to go any further to find all the suffering one is due for. Just turn to your neighbor. It is really funny and clever and droll. The idea is that, through the devilish arrangement of Fate, some thoughtless and unkind people (sinners) wind up in a hell that is nothing like what they suppose it should be. It is just a badly decorated room where they are to spend the rest of eternity. No windows, no outside, no escape, no sleep, no respite. They come together because the degree that they are mismatched turns out to be the perfect hellish match! There is no tormentor in this hell, but it was so much better designed since...each of them is perfectly suited to be the tormentor of the other!

Let he who has ears hear what wise words Alex Jacob speaks to the denizens of the Genius Forum!
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Now, ya got yer crude, basic, undeveloped Chrst'anity an' ya got yer very, very sophisticated Chrst'anity, jus like ya got yer ruff'n'tumble materialistic atheism (yet you still use the word 'God') an y'aslo got yer uptown, supersophisticated atheism which is yet devilishly smart and is even a sort of unique sublimation of the (Christian) God-ideer.
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Re: To give god meaning.

Post by Iolaus »

Tradition has it that what Jesus was doing those 2-3 days while he was dead, was he was in hell, preaching. And he lifted a lot of people out, like Adam and Eve. But I guess he didn't get everybody out, and you know why?

They didn't want to leave!
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Re: To give god meaning.

Post by Tomas »

Iolaus wrote:Tradition has it that what Jesus was doing those 2-3 days while he was dead, was he was in hell, preaching. And he lifted a lot of people out, like Adam and Eve. But I guess he didn't get everybody out, and you know why?

They didn't want to leave!
Well, when Jesus comes back here, maybe he can do something about the high gas prices!

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Re: To give god meaning.

Post by sue hindmarsh »

Brokenhead wrote:
What gives either of you the right or the authority to say what "every Christian" believes?
Christianity is an established religion, as is Judaism, Buddhism, and Islam. The varying beliefs and practices of each of these religions define them. A person who calls themselves a Christian or a Buddhist, etc, is understood to have accepted the basic core beliefs of their religion.
I sense here that people feel it is all right to demean Christians
It is impossible to “demean” members of religious sects, such as Christians, more than they themselves have already done by joining them. Cowering away as they do, hidden amongst the crowd; these sniveling invertebrates humbly submit to, and praise their domesticated Master. You really can’t get much lower than that!
…but would disagree in the strongest terms if it were some other group spoken of in such a disparaging manner. "The Australian is is typically a boor, with an inferiority complex at not being properly British, raised to be ill-mannered as a result of coming from a sub-standard stock of criminals and other societal castoffs from across the British Empire."
A situation that seems not to deter the Australian psyche in the least, for they not only celebrate it with a holiday every year on the 26th of January – ‘Australia Day’ – but strive to keep the celebration going every day of every year. Thus distracted, reflection is keep at bay.

Of course, you can be an Australian and not join in those celebrations, but you cannot call yourself a Christian without also adopting the core beliefs of Christianity.

So there are a number of Australians that encourage our nation to grow and mature away from such behaviour, but there wouldn't be a single Christian that would encourage other Christians to grow and mature away from the core beliefs of Christianity.
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Re: To give god meaning.

Post by brokenhead »

Sue Hindmarsh wrote:Thus distracted, reflection is keep at bay.
You speak so poorly for your fellow countrymen.
but there wouldn't be a single Christian that would encourage other Christians to grow and mature away from the core beliefs of Christianity.
Do you even know what the core beliefs are? Of course you don't. But you cannot possibly be this ignorant. You're putting me on, right?
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Re: To give god meaning.

Post by Kevin Solway »

Carl G wrote:
Kevin Solway wrote: Your personal view may be fundamentally different to every other Christian on the planet, but I doubt that it is.
Kevin, Brokenhead is correct, it is very bad form to lump every Christian on the planet into one group holding the very same beliefs. It is illogical, and thus unwise.
I'm not lumping every Christian into the one group. You will see above that I said "Your personal view may be fundamentally different to every other Christian on the planet", which means that it is possible for Christians to believe different things.

But I see no evidence that Brokenhead's views are, at base, any different from normal Christian beliefs.
You do not make a case that this is the prime motive of Brokenhead -- or any particular percentage of Christians.
The case is so easy to make, and has been made so many times, that it's not necessary to repeat it.
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Re: To give god meaning.

Post by sue hindmarsh »

Kevin to Carl wrote:
I'm not lumping every Christian into the one group. You will see above that I said "Your personal view may be fundamentally different to every other Christian on the planet", which means that it is possible for Christians to believe different things.
And those “things” have no resemblance to what the average Christian believes.

Example: Writings by Kierkegaard: A true Christian.

One best becomes a Christian – without "Christianity."

First the infinite conception of God’s infinite majesty, and then the childlike openness to become involved with him earnestly and in truth. Unfortunately Christianity has made God so sublime that in the long run we really have spirited him away and smuggled him out of life.

Christianity has been made so completely devoid of character that there is really nothing to persecute. The chief trouble with Christians, therefore, is that no one wants to kill them any more!

We delude ourselves into thinking that to refrain from venturing is modesty, and that it must please God as humility. No, no! Not to venture means to make a fool of God – because all he is waiting for is that you go forth.
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Re: To give god meaning.

Post by Carl G »

Kevin,

Since we cannot know all the views which may be held the entire line of questioning is nonsensical.
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Re: To give god meaning.

Post by Carl G »

Sue Hindmarsh wrote:Kevin to Carl wrote:
I'm not lumping every Christian into the one group. You will see above that I said "Your personal view may be fundamentally different to every other Christian on the planet", which means that it is possible for Christians to believe different things.
And those “things” have no resemblance to what the average Christian believes.

Example: Writings by Kierkegaard: A true Christian.

One best becomes a Christian – without "Christianity."

First the infinite conception of God’s infinite majesty, and then the childlike openness to become involved with him earnestly and in truth. Unfortunately Christianity has made God so sublime that in the long run we really have spirited him away and smuggled him out of life.

Christianity has been made so completely devoid of character that there is really nothing to persecute. The chief trouble with Christians, therefore, is that no one wants to kill them any more!

We delude ourselves into thinking that to refrain from venturing is modesty, and that it must please God as humility. No, no! Not to venture means to make a fool of God – because all he is waiting for is that you go forth.
Ah, now we are talking about the average Christian, and about Christianity as an institution. Kevin was attempting to compare Brokenhead's beliefs to those of every Christian on the planet. Different. "Every Christian on the planet" is not a meaningful term, that is my point.
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Re: To give god meaning.

Post by sue hindmarsh »

Carl,

I made the point earlier that the varying beliefs and practices of different religions define them. Adding that a person who calls themselves a Christian or a Buddhist, etc, is understood to have accepted the basic core beliefs of their religion.

Before that I wrote about the relationship Christians have with their god - their Grandfather in the Sky. And even though they don't call their god that, they do have that relationship with it. Christianity, and the Christians that adhere to its tenets, have made god, as Kierkegaard put it, "...so sublime that in the long run we really have spirited him away and smuggled him out of life".

So even though, as Kevin wrote, "it is possible for Christians to believe different things" - those things would not make them recognizable as the 'Christians' of which Brokenhead is obviously one. Taking that into account, using the term 'Christian' to describe the average Christian is acceptable.
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Re: To give god meaning.

Post by sue hindmarsh »

Brokenhead wrote:
You speak so poorly for your fellow countrymen.
And yet you were so sure that “people here” -
…feel it is all right to demean Christians, but would disagree in the strongest terms if it were some other group spoken of in such a disparaging manner.
You so often write as if you are new to this forum, yet you have been here for nearly two years - and still haven't a clue what is going on.
Sue: but there wouldn't be a single Christian that would encourage other Christians to grow and mature away from the core beliefs of Christianity.
Do you even know what the core beliefs are? Of course you don't. But you cannot possibly be this ignorant. You're putting me on, right?
They’re taken to task in just about every one of my posts.
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Re: To give god meaning.

Post by Alex Jacob »

Maybe if you change your name to Brokienegaard?

(Just trying to be helpful).
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Sue quotes the Only Little Boy in Denmark:

"...so sublime that in the long run we really have spirited him away and smuggled him out of life".

Right, so all that is needed is to spirit him back in: back into the body, back into the emotions, back into day-to-day life. Et voila!

Brokienegaard is an individual, a person, and is not Christendom.

(Why do I even bother to write in this thread?)

L'infer, c'est moi! (Oh, now I'm getting confused...)
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Re: To give god meaning.

Post by Kevin Solway »

Kevin Solway wrote:Since we cannot know all the views which may be held the entire line of questioning is nonsensical.
The fact that we cannot know every thought of every being in the Universe who calls themselves a Christian doesn't stop us from making valid generalizations.

It is fair to say that the vast majority of Christians - probably at least 99% - believe in a God who is a conscious, intelligent, all-powerful being.

You then have to ask yourself why people would believe in such a thing . . . and there aren't too many possible answers. I think the most likely explanation for the belief in such a God is the need for an imaginary friend - a likeable old grandfather who also has the ability to smite your enemies.

Brokenhead might have some other reason for believing in such a thing, but if he does, he hasn't made it evident.
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Re: To give god meaning.

Post by brokenhead »

Kevin Solway wrote:The fact that we cannot know every thought of every being in the Universe who calls themselves a Christian doesn't stop us from making valid generalizations.
You are quite correct. And some Chinese people all look the same.
It is fair to say that the vast majority of Christians - probably at least 99% - believe in a God who is a conscious, intelligent, all-powerful being.
If you were to stop right there, there would be no argument from me. I have given much thought and study to this, and the only real squabble I would have would be using the term "Being." Any facet of God that we can possibly conceive of entails the notion of time, which "Being" implies, and in that sense, the term is acceptable. However, God also exists outside of time as time is one of his manifestations.
You then have to ask yourself why people would believe in such a thing . . . and there aren't too many possible answers. I think the most likely explanation for the belief in such a God is the need for an imaginary friend - a likeable old grandfather who also has the ability to smite your enemies.
Your prejudices keep showing through, Kevin. What "need" could an "imaginary" friend fulfill in a real world? To me, God is anything but imaginary. But your eyes have to be open to see and you have to listen if you want to hear.

You can keep repeating the "old grandfather in the sky" nonsense and it just shows how ignorant you are and how little effort you have put into considering whether or not God exists. You have settled for a child's caricature. You are being silly. You should be glad that not too many people read this forum.

Logically, you make an ass out of yourself by sticking with this nonsense. My relationship with God has nothing to do with his being "likeable." In fact, that's the last word I would come up with with regards to God.

My reason to believe that God exists is that the alternative is that he does not, and that contradicts the evidence I see around me. That God does not exist cannot be a true statement, and I prefer to face reality, whatever it may ultimately prove to be as I live and die. You, on the other hand, live in fear, Kevin. You don't fear death - you fear life. I simply cannot be that way. You Anahata Chakra is closed or blocked. I cannot help but feel compassion for you and wish you well. Get help.
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