Enlightenment and Nirvana

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Carl G
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Post by Carl G »

Trevor wrote:
Scott, I can't see how he'd miss it: namely, that a person hardly needs an excuse to feel special. Calling yourself awake and everyone else asleep is a huge temptation.
Gee, I guess I did miss the point. However, now that Trevor has illuminated it for me, I disagree.

If one is awake one can see that most people are asleep. Who disputes this? And temptation and excuses aside, does this not make a person somewhat different, if not special?
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sschaula
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Post by sschaula »

Carl,
If one is awake one can see that most people are asleep. Who disputes this?
I dispute this. If you see yourself as awake and others as asleep, you're not yet truly awake. You're just brainwashed and a narcissist.

A person who is truly awake sees themselves and everyone else as the same. The human struggles disappear, including the struggle of enlightenment. "Why then did (insert name of famous wise person here) teach?" The answer is that (the famous wise person) wasn't truly awake.
And temptation and excuses aside, does this not make a person somewhat different, if not special?
Wisdom makes no one different or special. If a "wise person" thinks that, they're only playing a stupid mind game with themselves, and they should never be called wise. They are shitting all over the very teachings they share.

If people didn't believe that Jesus and the Budda walked on water, or floated in the air and multiplied food, then they would see no reason to hold them up on a pedestal and parade them around like they do. They would forget about them. If these famous wise people never attracted a crowd, and if they didn't seem mysterious, there would be absolutely no reason for anyone to pay attention to them.

This whole thing is about the pursuit of truth, not the pursuit of making yourself into something great. A person seeking the truth shouldn't want to become a sage. They should want to figure "it all" out. There's a vast difference between those two wants. One truly makes you into a sage, and one makes you into a full of shit cult leader.

With discovering the truth, like Trevor said, there's a huge temptation to feel special. But a truly wise one should comprehend in that very moment that feeling special or different is one of the most deluded things you can feel. Putting others below you on your little value scale is a sure sign you're full of it.

A wise person should understand that everyone is capable of reasoning. Everyone does it on a daily basis. The reason why it seems like they're "asleep" is that they aren't good at it yet. A wise person shouldn't get frustrated with this, and distance themselves from others. A wise person shouldn't feel the need to make people snap out of it. They definitely shouldn't do both at once, like many hermit-like philosophers do. None of this shit has to do with understanding reality. It has to do with human drama. A person who engages in any of this is an absolute fool, and any recognition they get as a thinker is an complete waste of breath. Their teachings fall apart in their own hands.

No one is above it. I'm not. David's not. You're not. Trevor's not. Jesus wasn't. Socrates wasn't. The Buddha wasn't. Weinenger wasn't. Nietzsche wasn't. Kevin isn't. Clyde isn't. Etc...

What's my point? People thinking they're wise should recognize this, in order to overcome their stupidity. That's the point of philosophy, isn't it? Love of truth/hatred of stupidity. Trying to understand how things really are. It shouldn't have anything to do with this hierarchy that people like David create.
- Scott
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David Quinn
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Post by David Quinn »

Scott wrote:
Wisdom makes no one different or special. If a "wise person" thinks that, they're only playing a stupid mind game with themselves, and they should never be called wise.
It is true that if a person thinks he is more inherently special than anyone else, then he is deluded. But that doesn't mean we cannot make judgments about who is more rational and truthful than others.

As an analogy, there is no one tree which is more inherently special than all the other trees, yet we can still make judgments about its height or its health. The tallest tree in the world is no more inherently special than any other tree, and yet it still remains the tallest tree in the world.

Your argument basically states that since no one tree is more inherently special than any other tree, all trees are the same height. Which is silly.

This reminds me, I've updated the wisdom scale that was initially published in Genius News a few years ago. It has a couple of slight amendments:
If we were to set up a scale which has total unconsciousness at one end and supreme consciousness at the other, then even the best artist would fall considerably below any philosopher worth his salt. Here is a rough sketch on how I rate various people in terms of consciousness and wisdom:

10 - Buddhahood (the ideal)

9

8

7

6 - Kierkegaard, Lao Tzu, Huang Po, Hakuin, Jesus

5 - Nietzsche, Weininger, Buddha

4

3

2 - Oscar Wilde, Marquis de Sade, Spinoza

1.5 - Kant, Dostoyevski, Shakespeare

1 - Einstein, Darwin, Newton

0.75 - Dali, Escher, Da Vinci, Bach

0.5 - Mozart, Beethoven, Van Gogh

0.1 - Tiger Woods, Michael Jorden, Dalai Lama, the pope, Hitler.

0.05 - The average person
Nietzsche, Weininger and Buddha have dropped down a notch because their flaws are too noticeable to ignore and clearly undermined their wisdom to a degree.

I've also dropped the grouping between Oscar Wilde and Van Gogh a couple of notches because let's face it, no matter how gifted they were, their understanding of the Infinite was pretty much non-existent.

Creating these hierarchies has value because it can be stimulating to the mind, and also confronting to the ego.

-
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Shahrazad
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Post by Shahrazad »

Why is Marquis de Sade higher up than Newton and Einstein?
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Matt Gregory
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Post by Matt Gregory »

Wow, talk about opening up a can of worms.
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Matt Gregory
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Post by Matt Gregory »

Where would you put Meister Eckhart? Socrates? Plato?
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

Sher,
Why is Marquis de Sade higher up than Newton and Einstein?
I was at the bookstore the other day, and I leafed through a book called "The Quotable Einstein". I don't see why anyone bothered quoting him. He's not particularly wise. I've read just as interesting things off of inspirational posters.

Marquis de Sade is a degenerate in every sense of the word, but he has his moments of lucidity. Plus, reading that god-awful book of his (120 Days), you can see that he was well-aware of how to progressively insult people's sensibilities more and more. This implies, to me, that he rated his perversions in a way that is actually coherent and in agreement with other people -- which means he had a strong insight into the psychology of perversion.
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Shahrazad
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Post by Shahrazad »

This implies, to me, that he rated his perversions in a way that is actually coherent and in agreement with other people -- which means he had a strong insight into the psychology of perversion.
And to you that is wise?

.
Steven Coyle

Post by Steven Coyle »

David,

As an ideal Buddhahood certainly is worthwhile. But I question it's practicality. I see more wisdom in the writings of Huang Po, Hakuin, Kierkegaard; with the knowledge that they realize the ebb and flow inherent in causality. With the influence of causality, a lack of freewill enables an individual to plunge and be devoured, rise and be exalted, maintain and learn, forget and confuse.

By entering into Nirvana, does one also enter into the ideal of Buddhahood? And is this state understood to be an impetus to greater things?
Last edited by Steven Coyle on Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
sschaula
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Post by sschaula »

David,
It is true that if a person thinks he is more inherently special than anyone else, then he is deluded. But that doesn't mean we cannot make judgments about who is more rational and truthful than others.
Sounds like a pretty stupid game to play. A game that only a narcissist would care to play.

When a Buddha ascends into Nirvana and looks down upon the world, is he going to waste his time picking people out of the crowd and putting them on a wisdom scale?
As an analogy, there is no one tree which is more inherently special than all the other trees, yet we can still make judgments about its height or its health. The tallest tree in the world is no more inherently special than any other tree, and yet it still remains the tallest tree in the world.

Your argument basically states that since no one tree is more inherently special than any other tree, all trees are the same height. Which is silly.
I never said everyone is just as close as everyone else to comprehending reality, and being truthful. My argument simply states that creating hierarchies of wise people is an absolute waste of time. That anyone who does it is obviously not wise.
10 - Buddhahood (the ideal)

9

8

7

6 - Kierkegaard, Lao Tzu, Huang Po, Hakuin, Jesus

5 - Nietzsche, Weininger, Buddha

4

3

2 - Oscar Wilde, Marquis de Sade, Spinoza

1.5 - Kant, Dostoyevski, Shakespeare

1 - Einstein, Darwin, Newton

0.75 - Dali, Escher, Da Vinci, Bach

0.5 - Mozart, Beethoven, Van Gogh

0.1 - Tiger Woods, Michael Jorden, Dalai Lama, the pope, Hitler.

0.05 - The average person
What a load of horseshit. It's easy to see people as stupid when you don't know them, and when you don't understand the motivating factors behind their actions. Perhaps someone is a greater thinker than you, and when they do something and you consider it unconscious, perhaps they were simply thinking deeper about all of the potential consequences than you. I have no problem with judging others, but when the judge claims to be above the others and obviously isn't, then I have a problem.

I also don't see how being an artist or scientist or...GOLFER!...makes you wise at all. That wisdom scale is probably the most insane/narcissistic thing I've seen all week.
Creating these hierarchies has value because it can be stimulating to the mind, and also confronting to the ego.
Really? How about this one:

10 - Buddhahood (the ideal).
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1 - Everyone who has ever/will ever exist.
0 - Anything which can't think.
- Scott
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

Sher,
And to you that is wise?
It may not be completely wise, but it shows insight... which is something that foolish people lack.
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David Quinn
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Post by David Quinn »

Shahrazad,
Why is Marquis de Sade higher up than Newton and Einstein?
He was more philosophical, and more psychological. Newton and Einstein were brilliant in a narrow field of endeavour, while remaining ordinary in everything else. Their philosophical consciousness, in particular, was poorly developed.

De Sade wasn't a sage, by any means. But he did value rationality, he did fully flesh out a philosophy of atheism, and most importantly, he had the courage to be consistent with his philosophy, both in thought and deed.

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David Quinn
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Post by David Quinn »

Scott,
When a Buddha ascends into Nirvana and looks down upon the world, is he going to waste his time picking people out of the crowd and putting them on a wisdom scale?
He would if he cares about the human race. Guiding people to wisdom is all about providing signposts.

I never said everyone is just as close as everyone else to comprehending reality, and being truthful.
This contradicts your own wisdom scale, such that it is.

I also don't see how being an artist or scientist or...GOLFER!...makes you wise at all.
All these types have greater mental qualities than the average person. Their minds are often clearer and more insightful, and their determination to succeed in what they do is very strong. There is some raw potential there. So for that, I bump them up the scale a bit.

-
Steven Coyle

Post by Steven Coyle »

Trevor Salyzyn wrote:Sher,
And to you that is wise?
It may not be completely wise, but it shows insight... which is something that foolish people lack.
Pretty arrogant for a wise person, Trev.
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Shahrazad
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Post by Shahrazad »

Thanks, David.

What makes you think that Newton was not rational?

Trevor,
It may not be completely wise, but it shows insight... which is something that foolish people lack.
If all people who are not wise are foolish, then a lot of foolish people have insight.

.
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David Quinn
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Post by David Quinn »

Matt,
Where would you put Meister Eckhart? Socrates? Plato?
Meister Eckhart - 4
Socrates - 6
Plato - 0.5

-
clyde
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Post by clyde »

David;

Where are you on your Genius Scale? Dan? Kevin?

clyde
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David Quinn
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Post by David Quinn »

Shahrazad,
What makes you think that Newton was not rational?

He was rational within a limited sphere, which, from the larger perspective, makes him largely irrational.

A theologian can also be rational within a limited sphere, but because this sphere is so limited and rests on irrational assumptions, one can't really speak of him as being a rational human being.

It's akin to having a split-personality.

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Matt Gregory
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Post by Matt Gregory »

Why did you rate Bach, Mozart and Beethoven the way you did?

Who do you think is the wisest rock and roller? Zappa? Jimi Hendrix? Jim Morrison maybe?
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Cory Duchesne
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Post by Cory Duchesne »

Hey David, where do you place yourself, Dan or Kevin Solway on the Heirarchy?

Also, why isnt Buddha above Weineigger? I havent heard any criticism's of Buddha on this site, I'd be interested to here your take on his flaws. I'm guessing something to do with his intentionally creating a religion?

And Matt - I'd say Zappa sits above Hendrix and Morrison, he was wise enough not to destroy himself through drugs. He wasnt as flowie, showed some masculine restraint.

And I'd place morrison above Hendrix. Morrison perhaps had brief sparks of philosohical genius, although he was just a battery plugged into the charger of Nietzche. Hendrixes genius I think was just aesthetic brilliance, not much philosophical capacity.

But all of them would be a notch or two bellow Mozart's notch, in my opinion.
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

Steven,
Pretty arrogant for a wise person, Trev.
Not at all. It's descriptive. A foolish person does not understand the depth of their own condition.

Sher,
If all people who are not wise are foolish, then a lot of foolish people have insight.
On the contrary, insight is a sign of wisdom.
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Post by sschaula »

David,
He would if he cares about the human race. Guiding people to wisdom is all about providing signposts.
Precisely...he doesn't care.
Quote:
I never said everyone is just as close as everyone else to comprehending reality, and being truthful.

This contradicts your own wisdom scale, such that it is.
True. I suppose I did say it, then.
- Scott
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Shahrazad
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Post by Shahrazad »

Trevor,

So what would you call a person who has some insight or wisdom?
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

Sher,
So what would you call a person who has some insight or wisdom?
That's a very broad category. If you can think of a word to describe someone who may not necessarily be wholly wise, but who shows some capacity for wisdom, then I'd go with that.
Steven Coyle

Post by Steven Coyle »

Cory Duchesne wrote:And I'd place morrison above Hendrix. Morrison perhaps had brief sparks of philosohical genius, although he was just a battery plugged into the charger of Nietzche. Hendrixes genius I think was just aesthetic brilliance, not much philosophical capacity.
Morrison above Hendrix...

In terms of capacity, I gotta go with Hendrix. The shear brilliance of his innovation, coupled with the fiercity of his axe, suggests a mind capable of great things. It's tough to guage the influence that drugs had on their output, and if that even should be considered. You'd probably know better than I.

Morrison seemed to possess a poetic exuberence that would lend itself to philosophic crossover. But Hendrix's level of consciousness, of his scene, of his technique, I think far surpasses anything that The Doors managed to achieve. Both borrowed immensely from the blues, but Hendrix took things to space, at Mach 5.
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