GENIUS FORUMS

David,

I don't really understand the passages you quoted:

"It is," they answer, "because words and letters are a coast of rocky cliffs washed constantly by vast oceans of poison ready to swallow your wisdom and drown the life from it. Giving students stories and episodes from the Zen past and having them penetrate their meaning is a practice that did not start until after the Zen school had already branched out into the Five Houses, and they were developing into the Seven Schools. Koan study represents a provisional teaching aid which teachers have devised to bring students up to the threshold of the house of Zen so as to enable them to enter the dwelling itself. It has nothing directly to do with the profound meaning of the Buddha-patriarchs' inner chambers."

He is quoting the 'bad' teachers views here.Is it good or bad that they give students stories to penetrate? What is the relevance of the Five Houses and Seven Schools? What does he think of koans?

My familiarity with Kensho comes from The Three Pillars of Zen. Here they empty their minds, or they may concentrate on breathing or a koan. It is definitely a practice, a very intense one. What I see is that they are working with the brain, trying to cause a flooding of some sort of energy or synpase release.

So Hakuin wants practice. And you say,

His focus was not so much on sitting zazen, but rather on deep meditative concentration on the nature of God in all situations, no matter what one is doing.

Now, that happens to be my preferred path, since I am lazy, but where do you get the idea that Hakuin thought this?

If someone without kensho tries constantly to make his thoughts free and unattached, he commits a great transgression against the Dharma and is a great fool to boot.

Perhaps you think he is emphasizing thought, and it does appear that he is against mindlessness, but I take the above to be the admonition to gain kensho first, at all costs, and then the other gifts will be added. For example, students note that the guru is not attached, so they try to practice nonattachment. Rather like trying not to sin. It is backwards. You must have the breakthrough first, and then nonattachment follows as the night the day.

He emphasized the importance of studying koans, meditating on them and resolving them

Many texts present the resolving of koans as a way to gain kensho, and they are used in zen practice. You can sit zazen with or without use of a koan. But if he emphasized koans, why did he seem to disparage them along with the teachings he despised? Or was it that they minimized the value of the koan?

His main criticism of the Buddhism around him was its dismissal of the intellectual aspects of the path in favour of trying to make the mind as blank as possible in the mistaken belief that we are already enlightened and there is essentially nothing to do. This has always been a very common misconception (one that is eagerly lapped up by the ego because of the lack of demands it makes),

Lack of demand? Try to do it! I think it's true people are enlightened, but it is buried. Now, you advocate a slow digging process, but there may be faster methods. Obtaining kensho through koan, or zazen might zip through mounds of false thinking. Some people have taken acid, and while not achieving enlightenment, have seen so utterly the nonsense of their world, that they are forever altered in the life course. The point of making the mind blank is to permanently or temporarily allow a very different perception to rise up. It's not about the blankness, it's about the struggle to alter the default functioning of the brain.

There is only one true path to enlightenment, and countless false ones.

Thinking?

Bo,

The Buddha taught heedfulness, not method

Heedfulness?

Kow,

non-dualty is non-sensate.

Really? Something is excluded from nonduality? How do you speak of nonduality with such confidence?

Iolaus wrote:

The Buddha taught heedfulness, not method

Heedfulness?

The Buddhas' very last words: "Bring about completion by being heedful."

Iolaus wrote: Kow,

non-dualty is non-sensate.

Really? Something is excluded from nonduality? How do you speak of nonduality with such confidence?

Yes, really. Yes, duality. Your last question is not relevant.

.

edit: spelling

Bo and Kow,

You two are like gnats buzzing about here. Insufferable, puffed up. Somehow you have elevated yourselves in your own minds such that you imagine your pearls are so valuable, that you should hold them tightly, play games and wait for people to beg, the price being that you will insult them at every opportunity.

Certainly, any path or practice that leads to such mean-spirited self importance is not one I have any interest in.

As you can see, Bo: this forum has its share of mentally challenged and disturbed people.

I don't understand why so many people at this forum feel they have the right to insult others without provocation. It almost as if their own inferiority complex is getting them down.

Some take on the colors of those that haven't learned how to put that woman down.

An old monk and a young monk were travelling along the rivers edge, after a fierce rainstorm. They came upon a women trying to cross, where a bridge had been washed away. Without hesitation, the old monk picked up the women and carried her to the other side. After putting her down and returning, the monks continued on their way.

About half an hour later, the young monk could no longer contain himself. "I don't understand! I don't understand!" he said: "We are celibate monks; sworn to never even think of, let alone touch the opposite sex. Yet you picked up that women and carried her! I don't understand!"

The old monk replied: "Are you still carrying that women around? I put her down half an hour ago."


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Beebuddy wrote:

I don't understand why so many people at this forum feel they have the right to insult others without provocation. It almost as if their own inferiority complex is getting them down.

I count at least two insults here. Firstly, Iolaus is supposedly so unbalanced that she attacks people "without provocation", and secondly, her character is so weak that it is weighed down by a possibly large inferiority complex.

Well done, beebuddy. Welcome to the club!

But ask yourself, which is worse? Honest people openly insulting each other? Or smarmy, underhanded, salesmen-like people spitting out their insults beneath frozen smiling masks?

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kowtaaia wrote:

K: The phrase "The non-dual may visit, but no one visits the non-dual." means that you (being the conditioned), cannot meet, experience, undergo, go to, cannot be when the non-dual is manifest, because it only manifest when you are not.

DQ: You are still engaging in a contradiction here. How can non-duality manifest in any way? Manifesting is, by definition, a dualistic act.

K: Not at all. It simply means "is" as opposed to "is not". Don't fall into the Dzogchen trap.

I still find your thinking very confusing. If we align non-duality with what "is", as opposed to the opposite category of "is not", then we undermine the very essence of non-duality. We effectively turn it into a dualistic phenomenon.

In truth, non-duality cannot be experienced (either by ego or non-ego), cannot manifest, cannot be either "is" or "is not". We can never enter into non-duality, but neither can we ever depart from it. He who realizes this great truth, and its many thousands of implications, can be said to be "enlightened".

Some take on the colors of those that haven't learned how to put that woman down.

An old monk and a young monk were travelling along the rivers edge, after a fierce rainstorm. They came upon a women trying to cross, where a bridge had been washed away. Without hesitation, the old monk picked up the women and carried her to the other side. After putting her down and returning, the monks continued on their way.

About half an hour later, the young monk could no longer contain himself. "I don't understand! I don't understand!" he said: "We are celibate monks; sworn to never even think of, let alone touch the opposite sex. Yet you picked up that women and carried her! I don't understand!"

The old monk replied: "Are you still carrying that women around? I put her down half an hour ago."

A very good story! I only wish that people the world over would put woman down and start being free. I wouldn't have to keep bugging them about it all the time.

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Beebuddy wrote,

I don't understand why so many people at this forum feel they have the right to insult others without provocation. It almost as if their own inferiority complex is getting them down.

How about I refresh your memory.....

BeeBuddy: There is no relationship between matter and what is usually referred to as conciousness.

Cory: So what is your explanation for the radical effects that a lobotomy has on a person?

Beebuddy: Cory, Kow is right, you either can't read or are too goddam ADD to take your time and be thorough. If you want a debate then stop, read, read again, read again, read again and then ask a question that isn't so stupid.

The example above is a plain demonstration of your abusive tendencies. It's one of many examples. I merely asked a question, only to have returned to me a rather vicious reply.

It's one thing to be an asshole. That I can actually tolerate.

It is the insolent man who crudely exhibits blatant hypocrisy that I find insufferable.

David,

Don't you need duality (the psychological) to experience non-duality (emptiness)?

As I say, non-duality cannot be experienced. A dualistic mind is needed to realize this fact - i.e. to realize emptiness.

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Iolaus wrote:Bo,

The Buddha taught heedfulness, not method

Heedfulness?

Dear Iolaus

That was 'kow's' quote but heedfulness is important, yes.

:D

David Quinn wrote: I still find your thinking very confusing. If we align non-duality with what "is", as opposed to the opposite category of "is not", then we undermine the very essence of non-duality. We effectively turn it into a dualistic phenomenon.

Then, don't do that. The non-dual is a state that is either manifest or not manifest. Its manifestation is the total absence of thought, the psychological reality, the ego. You cannot be there. 'There' refers to manifestation.

David Quinn wrote: In truth, non-duality cannot be experienced (either by ego or non-ego), cannot manifest, cannot be either "is" or "is not". We can never enter into non-duality, but neither can we ever depart from it. He who realizes this great truth, and its many thousands of implications, can be said to be "enlightened".

No! You, the ego; are duality. You're caught in the Dzogchen trap of "it is anyways".

We have already agreed that it's not an experience.

Iolaus,

Hakuin: "It is," they answer, "because words and letters are a coast of rocky cliffs washed constantly by vast oceans of poison ready to swallow your wisdom and drown the life from it. Giving students stories and episodes from the Zen past and having them penetrate their meaning is a practice that did not start until after the Zen school had already branched out into the Five Houses, and they were developing into the Seven Schools. Koan study represents a provisional teaching aid which teachers have devised to bring students up to the threshold of the house of Zen so as to enable them to enter the dwelling itself. It has nothing directly to do with the profound meaning of the Buddha-patriarchs' inner chambers."

Iolaus: He is quoting the 'bad' teachers views here.Is it good or bad that they give students stories to penetrate?

It is good to give students stimulating material which can inspire theirs mind to reach into enlightenment, whether it be stories, reasonings, koans, scripture, etc.

What is the relevance of the Five Houses and Seven Schools?

It was probably a reference to the main schools of Zen Buddhism in Japan at that time.

What does he think of koans?

He was big on them. He understood that spiritual development needs to be led by the intellect. The student needs to be intellectually focused on resolving the core riddle of existence. Koans are a way of facilitating this.

I personally don't agree with the idea of giving a student a fixed traditional koan (such as, "what is the sound of one hand clapping?") which is to be obsessively meditated upon to the exclusion of all else. The less contrivances and formulas you give a student the better. I would rather encourage students to think deeply about things and allow them to arrive at their own koans naturally.

There are plenty of koans out there in Nature. The core riddle of existence of a koan. We don't need to make up artificial ones.

My familiarity with Kensho comes from The Three Pillars of Zen. Here they empty their minds, or they may concentrate on breathing or a koan. It is definitely a practice, a very intense one. What I see is that they are working with the brain, trying to cause a flooding of some sort of energy or synpase release.

Kensho is simply genuine insight into the nature of Reality. It encompasses both intellectual understanding and direct experience. The core delusion of things inherently existing is penetrated and all doubts disappear. The mind understands all.

DQ: His focus was not so much on sitting zazen, but rather on deep meditative concentration on the nature of God in all situations, no matter what one is doing.

Iolaus: Now, that happens to be my preferred path, since I am lazy, but where do you get the idea that Hakuin thought this?

I see it the other way. Doing sitting zazen is lazy because it compartmentalizes one's spiritual aspirations to half-hour periods or whatever, leaving the rest of the day for good old-fashioned egotistical enjoyment of life. By contrast, keeping your mind on God all the time, and allowing God to intrude into everything that you do, is hard work.

As for Hakuins' thoughts on the subject, he was constantly encouraging his students to seek enlightenment as intensely as possible, no matter what they are doing. For example, from Tunnelling into the Secret Depths:

WITH GREATEST respect and reverence, I encourage all you superior seekers in the secret depths to devote yourselves to penetrating and clarifying the self as earnestly as you would put out a fire on the top of your head. I urge you to keep boring your way through as assiduously as you would seek a lost article of incalculable worth. I enjoin you to regard the teachings left by the Buddha-patriarchs with the same spirit of hostility you would show toward a person who had murdered both your parents. Anyone who belongs to the school of Zen and does not engage in the doubting and introspection of koan must be considered a deadbeat rascal of the lowest kind, someone who would throw aside his greatest asset. As a teacher of the past said, "At the bottom of great doubt lies great enlightenment ... From a full measure of doubt comes a full measure of enlightenment."

Don't think the commitments and pressing duties of secular life leave you no time to go about forming a ball of doubt. Don't think your mind is so crowded with confused thoughts you are incapable of devoting yourself singlemindedly to Zen practice. Suppose a man was in a busy market place, pushing his way through the dense crowd, and some gold coins dropped out of his pocket into the dirt. Do you think he would just leave them there forget about them and continue on his way because of where he was? Do you think someone would leave the gold pieces behind because he was in a crowded place or because the coins were lying in the dirt? Of course not. He would be down there frantically pushing and shoving with tears in his eyes trying to find them. His mind wouldn't rest until he had recovered them. Yet what are a few pieces of gold when set against that priceless jewel found in the headdresses of kings -- the way of inconceivable being that exists within your own mind? Could a jewel of such worth be attained easily, without effort? .......

You write:

Hakuin: If someone without kensho tries constantly to make his thoughts free and unattached, he commits a great transgression against the Dharma and is a great fool to boot.

Iolaus: Perhaps you think he is emphasizing thought, and it does appear that he is against mindlessness, but I take the above to be the admonition to gain kensho first, at all costs, and then the other gifts will be added. For example, students note that the guru is not attached, so they try to practice nonattachment. Rather like trying not to sin. It is backwards. You must have the breakthrough first, and then nonattachment follows as the night the day.

Well, non-attachment doesn't automatically follow kensho just like that. The (now enlightened) student still needs to put in great efforts towards both perfecting his realization (i.e. becoming intimately familiar with it and making it permanent) and abandoning all of his attachments. Rather than being an automatic attainment after kensho, it is the work of a lifetime.

But other than that, I agree with what you are saying here. Nothing can be accomplished without kensho.

DQ: He emphasized the importance of studying koans, meditating on them and resolving them

Iolaus: Many texts present the resolving of koans as a way to gain kensho, and they are used in zen practice. You can sit zazen with or without use of a koan. But if he emphasized koans, why did he seem to disparage them along with the teachings he despised? Or was it that they minimized the value of the koan?

Where did he disparage them?

DQ: His main criticism of the Buddhism around him was its dismissal of the intellectual aspects of the path in favour of trying to make the mind as blank as possible in the mistaken belief that we are already enlightened and there is essentially nothing to do. This has always been a very common misconception (one that is eagerly lapped up by the ego because of the lack of demands it makes),

Iolaus: Lack of demand? Try to do it! I think it's true people are enlightened, but it is buried. Now, you advocate a slow digging process, but there may be faster methods. Obtaining kensho through koan, or zazen might zip through mounds of false thinking. Some people have taken acid, and while not achieving enlightenment, have seen so utterly the nonsense of their world, that they are forever altered in the life course. The point of making the mind blank is to permanently or temporarily allow a very different perception to rise up. It's not about the blankness, it's about the struggle to alter the default functioning of the brain.

You can certainly attain some interesting, even mind-blowing, experiences via LSD or blanking the mind. There is no denying that. However, if you're a person riddled with delusions and mental blocks, you are almost certainly going to misunderstand these experiences. You won't have the wisdom to place these them in the proper context, and unless you have already awakened your rationality to some degree and developed a solid grasp of what Truth might be, you are only going to be led astray by them.

DQ: There is only one true path to enlightenment, and countless false ones.

Iolaus: Thinking?

Thinking freely and deeply, without fear.

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kowtaaia wrote:

DQ: I still find your thinking very confusing. If we align non-duality with what "is", as opposed to the opposite category of "is not", then we undermine the very essence of non-duality. We effectively turn it into a dualistic phenomenon.

K: Then, don't do that. The non-dual is a state that is either manifest or not manifest. Its manifestation is the total absence of thought, the psychological reality, the ego. You cannot be there. 'There' refers to manifestation.

You're dividing Reality into two realms - no-thought and thought - and confining non-duality to one of them. It is a clear case of turning non-duality into a duality.

That you try to argue that ego and thought are not present during the manifestation of non-duality isn't relevant. Just the fact that you assert non-duality begins where duality ends is enough to turn non-duality into a duality.

Do you remember the Buddhist story of Hui Neng? He was an illiterate fellow back in 7th century China who was recognized to be enlightened by his teacher after he submitted a high-quality stanza, one that was far superior to the leading monk's stanza.

The leading monk's stanza was:

Our body is the Bodhi-tree,
And our mind a mirror bright.
Carefully we wipe them hour by hour,
And let no dust alight.

In contrast, Hui Neng's stanza was:

There is no Bodhi-tree,
Nor stand of a mirror bright.
Since all is Empty,
Where can the dust alight?

To my ears, you are expounding the limited, deluded views of the monk, and not the loftier view of Hui Neng.

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I can't really agree that I was being openly insulting. I was naming behaviors. I watched over some days before posting and noted the inexcusable way that these people abuse others by not answering sincere questions, the better to create opportunities to express self-importance and insult them. I was remiss, apparently, in not including Beebuddy. No wonder he's annoyed.

But Bo, I don't know what heedfulness is. Is it the same thing as mindfulness? I did google it, but got too many sites with long essays that didn't get to the point.

Cory,

Now I'll refresh your memory. You quoted me above responding to this arrogant rot...

The intolerant reactions that you and Kow demonstrate for peoples reasonable inquires displays symptoms of two rather small minded, foolish individuals.

Everything was quite polite until this post. Since you act like an asshole, you get it in kind.

Iolaus wrote:Bo and Kow,

You two are like gnats buzzing about here. Insufferable, puffed up. Somehow you have elevated yourselves in your own minds such that you imagine your pearls are so valuable, that you should hold them tightly, play games and wait for people to beg, the price being that you will insult them at every opportunity.

Certainly, any path or practice that leads to such mean-spirited self importance is not one I have any interest in.

This is naming names and using deprecatory similies. If you want to call it "naming behaviors" then go ahead, it's clear what it actually is.

David,

I wasn't trying to deride or berate anyone specific at this forum. I think and I hope that was clear.

The fact is is that on more than one occasion people start making personal remarks to me in an otherwise polite conversation. There are also many remarks about how someone doesn't like so & so's style of posting/writing, but style is nothing compared to these pointless personal observations and thinly veiled insults.

It would be really be nice if it stopped, I really feel that way. So please don't give me any BS about how I "do it too." Because I don't like it, I don't want it and I don't start it.

David Quinn wrote: That you try to argue that ego and thought are not present during the manifestation of non-duality isn't relevant. Just the fact that you assert non-duality begins where duality ends is enough to turn non-duality into a duality.

It doesn't begin. It IS the absence of thought. You don't understand what you're talking about. Stop arguing just for the sake of it and look at what is being pointed to.

Iolaus wrote: But Bo, I don't know what heedfulness is. Is it the same thing as mindfulness? I did google it, but got too many sites with long essays that didn't get to the point.

Dear I

Its use is as per the quote 'kow' brought above. I have also seen it called attention.

Maybe if I find a more to the point quote another time, will post it for you.

Cheers
Bo

Anna,

I'm not sure why Bo needs to go off and find a quote to answer your question. My impression is that heedfulness and mindfulness refer to the same thing.

If they don't I have no clue what these guys are talking about! Nice to see you back in the place btw. You know me, always late or absent with the social graces.....

He understood that spiritual development needs to be led by the intellect. The student needs to be intellectually focused on resolving the core riddle of existence. Koans are a way of facilitating this.

You call it being led by the intellect, but in this case my impression is that the intellect is caused to become exhausted and snaps, allowing some sort of dawning to occur. This dawning seems closer to experiential than to intellectual. Yes, it certainly leads quickly to new understanding, in an Aha kind of way. It looks to me like it allows a new way to perceive. As you can probably tell, I am very interested in the brain. The brain has amazing perceptive capabilities. We are locked in to a certain way of perceiving, including of time, so that we animals are all on the same page as far as bodily survival and such. But our brains are capable of so much more.

The core riddle of existence is a koan.

Yes! That's my koan. I wonder if that is what the Native Americans meant by "pondering the Great Mystery."

Kensho is simply genuine insight into the nature of Reality. It encompasses both intellectual understanding and direct experience.

My impression is that the direct experience comes first, and the intellectual meaning just after, perhaps very quickly after, perhaps not.

Doing sitting zazen is lazy because it compartmentalizes one's spiritual aspirations to half-hour periods or whatever, leaving the rest of the day for good old-fashioned egotistical enjoyment of life.

Well they go on these retreats for a week or so where they meditate much of the day, exert themselves (the brain) to the point of panting and sweating, and in the final days stay up all night as well. Meditating on the koan Mu is not exactly a typically intellectual endeavor. So they are using techniques to push people out of the stubborn default brain function and into a new perception. They could be opining energy channels, opening chakras, letting kundalini up to the brain - but I think it is a physical reaction they are provoking.

By contrast, keeping your mind on God all the time, and allowing God to intrude into everything that you do, is hard work.

But there is nothing I prefer more than thinking of God all the time and the main dislike I have about my work (aside from its being a citadel of all that's wrong with modern medicine and passivity of the patients and being increasingly run by the pharmaceutical comanies) is that it is more difficult there than most any other situation to keep my mind in God. It's not just negative vibes, but mostly the intense busyness.

Well, non-attachment doesn't automatically follow kensho just like that. The (now enlightened) student still needs to put in great efforts towards both perfecting his realization (i.e. becoming intimately familiar with it and making it permanent) and abandoning all of his attachments. Rather than being an automatic attainment after kensho, it is the work of a lifetime.

I see what you are saying but nonetheless, until you are lifted out of your prior perceptions, there is no hope of nonattachment and I don't think it should be a primary focus. People thereby think they are pursuing the spiritual life and they are pursuing a running deer, and they are pursuing new egotism, and more layers of frustration and guilt. They can soothe themselves that they are making progress when they haven't taken a step. Whereas, if the person can open their sense of self from narrow ego to an expanded sense of self, many of the spiritual gifts will become more or less automatic. Many of our attachments are about fearing death, or proving onself, or just a gnawing inner emptiness, for example. Those should drop away. But I also think that any major gain on the way has to be cultivated and treasured, not taken for granted. I really agree with you on that. My point is, tho, that many of the attributes of spiritual greatness are symptoms, of attainment, not methods.

Look what Bodhidharma said:

If someone without kensho tries constantly to make his thoughts free and unattached, he commits a great transgression against the Dharma and is a great fool to boot.

Pretty strong! The way I see it, everyone is avoiding God, the religious no less than the atheist, often more so. So they mistake the less essential for the truly essential. As Hakuin said,

It is there as clear and stark as could be. It is staring you right in the face. But none of you is awake to see it.

Where did he disparage them?

The way I read that first paragraph you quoted:

At present, we are infested in this country with a race of smooth-tongued, worldly-wise Zen teachers who feed their students a ration of utter nonsense. "Why do you suppose Buddha-patriarchs through the ages were so mortally afraid of words and letters?" they ask you. "It is," they answer, "because words and letters are a coast of rocky cliffs washed constantly by vast oceans of poison ready to swallow your wisdom and drown the life from it. Giving students stories and episodes from the Zen past and having them penetrate their meaning is a practice that did not start until after the Zen school had already branched out into the Five Houses, and they were developing into the Seven Schools. Koan study represents a provisional teaching aid which teachers have devised to bring students up to the threshold of the house of Zen so as to enable them to enter the dwelling itself. It has nothing directly to do with the profound meaning of the Buddha-patriarchs' inner chambers."

The above would make it seem that everything within the quotes is suspect. These smooth-tongued teachers said the underlined portion about koans. Also, is Hakuin agreeing or disagreeing that the Buddha-patriarchs were afraid of words and letters? Because he said this:

Don't you realize that every syllable contained in the Buddhist canon - all five thousand and forty-eight scrolls of scripture - is a rocky cliff jutting into deadly, poison-filled seas?

Which seems to agree with what the smooth-tongued ones said.

You can certainly attain some interesting, even mind-blowing, experiences via LSD or blanking the mind. There is no denying that. However, if you're a person riddled with delusions and mental blocks, you are almost certainly going to misunderstand these experiences. You won't have the wisdom to place them in the proper context, and unless you have already awakened your rationality to some degree and developed a solid grasp of what Truth might be, you are only going to be led astray by them.

That is certainly so, but they might be useful to one on the path precisely because they are in a better position to use them.

My apologies, Bee.

Hi Dan. Congratulations on the harem, by the way. It really breaks up the monotony here.

Bo, Kow's quote was that Buddha said you bring yourself to completion through heedfulness, and I ask what is heedfulness, and you answer that it is per the above. So it's not much of an explanation.

kowtaaia wrote:

DQ: That you try to argue that ego and thought are not present during the manifestation of non-duality isn't relevant. Just the fact that you assert non-duality begins where duality ends is enough to turn non-duality into a duality.

K: It doesn't begin. It IS the absence of thought.

Yes, you've already stated that. You're the monk who seeks to wipe the dust from the mirror.

You don't understand what you're talking about. Stop arguing just for the sake of it and look at what is being pointed to.

The trouble is, your pointing thus far has been too riddled with contradictions to be effective.

Let me ask you this: Do you believe that thoughts are a part of non-duality, or separate from it?

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