Rationality vs. Logic

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Imadrongo
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Re: Rationality vs. Logic

Post by Imadrongo »

David,
DQ: Thus, to use empirical mysteries of this kind to arrive at the conclusion that, mathematically, 1+1 should equal 3, would be irrational.

NM: Not if it was suddenly the truth that 1+1=3. This is highly unlikely though.

DQ: It will only change if we decide it will change. And even then, the meaning of it won't change, only the symbols will change.
The meaning may change. That is what I am saying. The meaning is what is practical for us. If the empirical world suddenly completely changed our concepts would also. We could maintain that 1+1=2 but we wouldn't because it would be utterly useless to us and stupid to maintain it.

But we essentially agree. Now you would call this absolute truth but I call it tautology, and it is only true if there is a mind to hold it as true.... =\
tooyi
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Re: Rationality vs. Logic

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Neil wrote:The meaning may change. That is what I am saying. The meaning is what is practical for us. If the empirical world suddenly completely changed our concepts would also. We could maintain that 1+1=2 but we wouldn't because it would be utterly useless to us and stupid to maintain it.

But we essentially agree. Now you would call this absolute truth but I call it tautology, and it is only true if there is a mind to hold it as true.... =\
There is not a thing above and below that doesn't use logic through and through from beginning to end, wrapped around, inside, and outside, with all the colors in between. It is all logic.

Part of rationality is to not go and follow through the logical chains all the way to infinity. It is a logistical choice to come back and to report about it.

I wrote in another thread about initial conditions and how the sensitivity increases to those initial conditions by rehashing until finally the sensitivity is greater than the ability to form a complete picture with the resources at hand, resulting in chaos. That chaos is just an appearance of a natural limit in consciousness to follow logic beyond what is practical, if we are to come back and communicate, and report something of our findings. Autistic and savantist people (to the degree they are savants) do not. Just because your brain doesn't allow the use of all of your memory in accessing doesn't mean the logic stops at the curtain.

You can choose from a boundless (see boundless vs. infinite) number of choices for your logical backdrop. Like any decent fractal landscape it can look a lot self similar and a whole lot self different in all of its details. You walk to where it suits you the best but the frame of logic doesn't go anywhere. It coming and going is just the same and same. You maybe struggling to think that logic just isn't flexible enough to meet you egotistical needs and therefore doesn't meet your experience. The irony you perceive here is your last chance at egotism.

Would it help if you were to consider how logic is actually more flexible and free form of (or from) thinking than emotional one?

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Imadrongo
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Re: Rationality vs. Logic

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The notion of logic is something human beings created. To claim it is absolute and that everything must follow it is something you simply can't back up. Perhaps human beings could not live without our logical axioms. Perhaps our world is governed by it (all we can say is that it appears to be) -- this is no argument that logic is absolute.
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David Quinn
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Re: Rationality vs. Logic

Post by David Quinn »

Neil wrote:
The notion of logic is something human beings created. To claim it is absolute and that everything must follow it is something you simply can't back up. Perhaps human beings could not live without our logical axioms. Perhaps our world is governed by it (all we can say is that it appears to be) -- this is no argument that logic is absolute.
There is such an argument, but I think you have too many mental blocks at the moment to see it.

Logic is central to existence itself and therefore is not really a human creation. As soon as a thing exists, in whatever shape or form, it has an identity of some kind, which automatically brings logic into play. Logic is really just the art of perceiving identity.

But we essentially agree. Now you would call this absolute truth but I call it tautology, and it is only true if there is a mind to hold it as true.... =\
Two things:

- All truth is tautological in nature. Good philosophy consists of making tautological truth meaningful by bringing the empirical world into its loop. A meaningful truth is a tautology which cannot help but include the empirical world within itself out of logical necessity.

- Secondly, when you say that a conclusion is "only true if there is a mind to hold it", you're confusing the existence of a conclusion with its truth. In reality, even if a truthful conclusion were to appear only momentarily in the mind, its truth would still extend into eternity regardless.

For example, if I affirm in a particular moment that the tree which appears to exist outside my window does in fact appear to be a tree existing outside my window, then that is a truth which is true for all time. Even though my affirmation of this appearance is only momentary, the truth of it is universal and absolute. Nothing can ever undermine it.

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divine focus
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Re: Rationality vs. Logic

Post by divine focus »

Neil wrote:The notion of logic is something human beings created. To claim it is absolute and that everything must follow it is something you simply can't back up. Perhaps human beings could not live without our logical axioms. Perhaps our world is governed by it (all we can say is that it appears to be) -- this is no argument that logic is absolute.
What could there be other than logic that would be more encompassing than logic and let logic govern our world and our psyches, while showing no signs of itself? How could it ever be discovered if it's totally illogical? Everything has a method; even quantum chaos has order. The only variable is the framework or angle for seeing that order.
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David Quinn
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Re: Rationality vs. Logic

Post by David Quinn »

Even if quantum chaos was completely without order, it would still have the identity of being without order and we would have no problems reasoning about it.

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Imadrongo
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Re: Rationality vs. Logic

Post by Imadrongo »

David,
Logic is central to existence itself and therefore is not really a human creation. As soon as a thing exists, in whatever shape or form, it has an identity of some kind, which automatically brings logic into play. Logic is really just the art of perceiving identity.
This is true in the sense that we have defined "existence". In the sense that you define "existence" as "appearance" (as I recall), yes. However I am now willing to admit that things can "exist" without appearing to me, or that the "Totality" could contain things that don't appear to me.
- All truth is tautological in nature. Good philosophy consists of making tautological truth meaningful by bringing the empirical world into its loop. A meaningful truth is a tautology which cannot help but include the empirical world within itself out of logical necessity.
Got any examples? From what you say here I imagine the empirical world is included in these because humans created these tautologies based on the empirical world.
- Secondly, when you say that a conclusion is "only true if there is a mind to hold it", you're confusing the existence of a conclusion with its truth. In reality, even if a truthful conclusion were to appear only momentarily in the mind, its truth would still extend into eternity regardless.

For example, if I affirm in a particular moment that the tree which appears to exist outside my window does in fact appear to be a tree existing outside my window, then that is a truth which is true for all time. Even though my affirmation of this appearance is only momentary, the truth of it is universal and absolute. Nothing can ever undermine it.
I'm skeptical David. If I defined 30 trillion arbitrary definitions would I have just created 30 trillion "absolute truths"? That is 30 trillion truths that are simply a waste of space, especially after I die and nobody else knew them.
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David Quinn
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Re: Rationality vs. Logic

Post by David Quinn »

Neil,
DQ: Logic is central to existence itself and therefore is not really a human creation. As soon as a thing exists, in whatever shape or form, it has an identity of some kind, which automatically brings logic into play. Logic is really just the art of perceiving identity.

Neil: This is true in the sense that we have defined "existence". In the sense that you define "existence" as "appearance" (as I recall), yes. However I am now willing to admit that things can "exist" without appearing to me, or that the "Totality" could contain things that don't appear to me.

There are zillions of things in the Totality which exist and don't appear to you. For example, the appearance of the tree currently outside my window isn't appearing to you.

It is impossible to refute the truth that existence necessarily involves having a form and therefore an identity. This is because any counter-examples that we care to point to will necessarily have a form and identity as well. The whole, "But what about the possibility that .... ", has no means to make its mark.

DQ: - All truth is tautological in nature. Good philosophy consists of making tautological truth meaningful by bringing the empirical world into its loop. A meaningful truth is a tautology which cannot help but include the empirical world within itself out of logical necessity.

Neil: Got any examples? From what you say here I imagine the empirical world is included in these because humans created these tautologies based on the empirical world.
If we define a "thing" to be a finite portion of the Totality, then all phenomena are "things" which comprise the Totality.

This is a simple tautology which necessarily embraces all phenomena, including all empirical phenomena, because of the fact that nothing can exist outside of, or apart from, the Totality, by definition.

Now, I know you are going to jump and down here and scream "metaphysics!", but you need to understand what is being done here. The intention is not to create a metaphysical system as such, but to use these tautological truths as jack-hammers to dismantle our deepest delusions regarding our own experiences. They are throwaway tools whose purpose is to take us beyond all metaphysical abstractions.

DQ: - Secondly, when you say that a conclusion is "only true if there is a mind to hold it", you're confusing the existence of a conclusion with its truth. In reality, even if a truthful conclusion were to appear only momentarily in the mind, its truth would still extend into eternity regardless.

For example, if I affirm in a particular moment that the tree which appears to exist outside my window does in fact appear to be a tree existing outside my window, then that is a truth which is true for all time. Even though my affirmation of this appearance is only momentary, the truth of it is universal and absolute. Nothing can ever undermine it.

Neil: I'm skeptical David. If I defined 30 trillion arbitrary definitions would I have just created 30 trillion "absolute truths"? That is 30 trillion truths that are simply a waste of space, especially after I die and nobody else knew them.
You're right, there are literally an infinite number of absolute truths that could be discovered, almost all of them trivial or meaningless. It is those few truths which go to the heart of Nature and cut to the very core of who we are as individuals that interest the spiritual philosopher.

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Imadrongo
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Re: Rationality vs. Logic

Post by Imadrongo »

David,
I may reply more later,
You're right, there are literally an infinite number of absolute truths that could be discovered, almost all of them trivial or meaningless. It is those few truths which go to the heart of Nature and cut to the very core of who we are as individuals that interest the spiritual philosopher.
All infinite truths are logical in nature though. Everything logical in nature is simply tautology. I'm not sure what absolute truths you think actually touch on reality other than the ones we define to touch on reality, and still reality is not bound by these, we have defined them based on our limited perspective.
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divine focus
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Re: Rationality vs. Logic

Post by divine focus »

David Quinn wrote:For example, if I affirm in a particular moment that the tree which appears to exist outside my window does in fact appear to be a tree existing outside my window, then that is a truth which is true for all time. Even though my affirmation of this appearance is only momentary, the truth of it is universal and absolute. Nothing can ever undermine it.
This is a rational truth as opposed to a logical truth, no? You can say or "think" anything that has momentary truth value and be speaking rational truth. But unless it fits into a system of how reality operates, it's not a "logical" truth.

Damn these words!! They don't fit! I need a new word or phrase for "thoughts" and "logic." How about deep thought vs. rational thought? Deep truth and rational truth. Rational truth is already known, and it's objectivity.
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