If you cannot love an eternal torment god (the first 500 yea

rodgertutt · Post by **rodgertutt** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 5:53 am

If you cannot love an eternal torment god

For the first 500 years after Christ, universalism was the prevailing doctrine believed and taught by the Christian church.
These online books also explain why and how this changed.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html
http://www.gtft.org/Library/miscellaneo ... athers.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Doctrine ... bution.htm

Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years

The author, J.W. Hanson wrote “The purpose of this book is to present some of the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.

The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures.” And they were reading the Bible in its original language.

TRACING UNIVERSALIST THOUGHT THROUGH CHURCH HISTORY
Well known Christian church leaders who believed and taught Biblical universalism.
Including a separate list of famous people embracing Christian universalism.
http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalists.html

THE WRITINGS OF DOZENS OF TEACHERS OF CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSLISM

GOD’S TRUTH LIBRARY
http://www.gtft.org/Library/index1.html

IN THE GARDEN
http://www.gtft.org/InTheGarden/index.html

Up until now, after reading this post, many believers in eternal torment have said something like, “I truly sympathize with your sufferings, but it’s what the Bible says that matters, not whether or not it makes you suffer.” That’s why I want to say right at the outset that many of the links posted here show that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not eternal torment, or even annihilation.

I’m 70 years old. The idea that God lets anyone suffer forever has caused me more suffering, including a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, than all the other sufferings of my life combined.

This suffering was caused by the fear produced by not being able to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever and wondering what this god would do to me for not being able to love him. Even though I was and am trusting for my salvation in what Jesus accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, I was, and still am unable to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. Here are testimonies similar to mine.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html

http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/consequences.html

If you are like me and cannot love a god who would let anyone suffer forever, you can copy and paste (if necessary) the following urls into the address bar and find out that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not even annihilation.

Copy and paste into Google
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into the address bar.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savio ... larity.htm

At the top and bottom of that same THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD page, there is the following link to fourteen other writings in the same series that are related to this same subject.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savio ... /index.htm

Don’t kid yourself. If anyone suffers forever JESUS IS DOING IT TO THEM
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savio ... larity.htm

THE GOD THAT CALVINIST AND ARMINIAN ETERNAL TORMENTORS PROFESS TO LOVE

The eternal torment theology of the Arminian Christian relies on so-called “free will” and luck.

The god that Arminian eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

“Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don’t have the good sense to cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever.”

The eternal torment theology of the Calvinist Christian relies on God alone, not “free will” at all. It is summed up by the word TULIP: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and the Perseverance of the elect.

The god that Calvinistic eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

"I created most of you for the purpose of torturing you forever. However, I am going to choose a few of you undeserving ones to go to heaven where you will be happy forever." John Calvin said there will be infants a span long in hell because they were not among the elect. (A span is the distance between the tip of the thumb to the tip of the little finger.)

And then both the Arminian and Calvinistic eternal tormentors say that the feelings that they have for this god of theirs is “love.”

To read a description of eternal torment combination Calv-Arminianism see
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute ... hrist.html

This next url sums up the end result of all three
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savio ... larity.htm

Without God’s sustaining power everyone would cease to exist.
So if anyone were to suffer forever, our all-powerful God (Who is Love in essence, not just loving) would be fully 100% responsible for it. We would have to conclude that any definition of the manifestation of “love-in-essence” includes eternally sustaining people alive in an inescapable state of suffering.

What a travesty; what a revolting definition of love it is that God, Who is love personified, would grant any creature a will so strong that they can choose themselves into an irreversible state of never ending suffering (Arminian), or they deserve to suffer forever just by being born into the human race (Calvinist)!

Thank God the Bible does not teach such an insane idea! Yes, God is just but He is not justice personified. However, God is Love personified. That is why He will temper all of His administrating of justice only to be for the good of the individual being judged.

Here is what the God that universal transformationists love and worship with complete abandon will do. He will complete the process of salvation for the first fruits of election, (the remnant chosen by grace), after the first resurrection. Then He will complete the process of salvation for the non-elect after the great white throne judgment. For some, it will include an experience in the lake of fire.

Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead to guarantee that any necessary "kolasis aionian" (age-during corrective chastisement) will be 100% effective in changing wrong attitudes. All acts of sin have been forgiven for everyone. Attitudes cannot be forgiven. Attitudes must change. This is what the lake of fire which is the second death will do. It will last no longer than God sees is good for everyone involved.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savio ... e-Eby.html

You can Google up good articles on this subject by typing in kolasis aionian

Also see
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savio ... /index.htm

For anyone who cannot love an endless-hell god ---
BIBLICAL CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST RESOURCES

Copy and paste the following urls into the address bar
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
http://www.christian-universalism.com/links.html
http://www.christianuniversalist.org
http://www.geocities.com/kencallen/inquire2.html
Also see
Information, and frequently asked questions in support of a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaching universal salvation,

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThr ... ained.html

Good news of God's love for all mankind - find it here at Tentmaker

Quick Find: Links to Information on Hell and Universal Salvation

http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/sitemap.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savio ... /index.htm

(If necessary, copy and paste them into your address bar)
and they will learn that the Bible actually teaches universal salvation instead, not even annihilation.

Or, they will go to the search engine at the top of http://www.tentmaker.org and will type in a key word or phrase from any argument or scripture passage. Ten articles will come up refuting the claim that the Bible teaches eternal torment or annihilation. Then they may click to the next page and ten more articles will come up, and so on and so on for many pages.

The many entries in my guestbook that is accessed towards the bottom of my front page at
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/
and the many entries at http://www.tentmaker.org/visitorcomments.htm
show just how much this information is helping people.
Also see http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html

This was the information that enabled me to recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, and it gives me great joy to keep learning that it is helping more and more other people too!! I’m 70 years old.

I am also going to guide you to the testimony of a man whose experience was almost identical to mine. Even the thought processes that took him into, through, and out of his breakdown are the same as mine. His name is Charles Slagle.
He responds to the question, "Which view of salvation is true?"
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute ... hrist.html

POST SCRIPT: For those of you who believe the Bible teaches annihilation rather than universal salvation, consider the following,
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html

rodgertutt · Post by **rodgertutt** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 5:55 am

WHAT I WISH I HAD KNOWN DURING MY YOUTH

How I recovered from a 12 year nervous breakdown (1966-78) I’m 70 years old

My name is Rodger Tutt. I am 70 years old. I could have avoided a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) had I known as a youth about the following information concerning what a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches.

You can access my website through Google by typing in hope4you rodger tutt, or
My website is http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/

You can also access most of the following writings through Google by typing in the title.

BOOKS THAT SHOW THAT THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION,
THE ENTIRE CONTENTS OF WHICH CAN BE READ ONLINE

If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into the address bar.

0. ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute ... hrist.html
1. HOPE BEYOND HELL - Gerry Beauchemin (recently published)
http://hopebeyondhell.net/Revised_Edition.pdf
2. CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm
3. THE BIBLE HELL - J.W. Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheBibleHell.html
4. THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT – Thomas Thayer
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
5. THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm
6. JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN "HELL" - J. Preston Eby
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savio ... d/hell.htm
7. ONE HUNDRED SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST WILL SAVE ALL MANKIND - Thomas Whittemore
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ScripturalProofs.html
8. TWENTY-FOUR SERMONS ON UNIVERSAL SALVATION – John Bovee Dods
http://www.tentmaker.org/Bovee2.htm#Top
9. THE SECOND DEATH AND THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew Jukes
http://www.tentmaker.org/restitutionindex.htm
10. ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY REASONS FOR BELIEVING IN THE FINAL SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND – Erasmus Manford
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/150reasons.html
11. THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS – J. Patching
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/RichMana ... ching.html
12. BIBLE TRANSLATIONS THAT DO NOT TEACH ETERNAL TORMENT – Gary Amirault
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/GatesOfHell.html
13. AION – AIONIOS – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
14. BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThr ... ained.html
15. THE CASE OF JUDAS, ETCETERA
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter16.html
16. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL – John Essex
AND THE ROLE OF THE ADVERSARY – James Webb
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TheProblemofEvil.html
17. HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE – James Coram
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchie ... index.html
18. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew Jukes
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/jukes2.html
19. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – George Hawtin
http://www.godfire.net/restitutionHawtin.html
20. THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES – J. Preston Eby
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savio ... /index.htm
ESPECIALLY THIS ONE IN THAT SERIES
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savio ... larity.htm
21. THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
http://thegloryrd.com:80/apadams/evil.html
22. TEN REASONS NOT TO BELIEVE THE TEACHING OF ETERNAL TORTURE
http://www.completerestorationinchrist. ... s-not.html
23. IS HELL ETERNAL OR WILL GOD’S PLAN FAIL?
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/is_hell_ ... index.html

Nick · Post by **Nick** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:10 am

No thanks I'd rather just think for myself. You should try it some time.

Ryan Rudolph · Post by **Ryan Rudolph** » Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:55 am

sometimes less is just more.

Glostik91 · Post by **Glostik91** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:45 am

rodgertutt,

If you say God brings everyone to heaven even those who have done extreme evil then you are surely mistaken. I remember that a council was held in Carthage around 400 A.D. which instituted purgatory. Purgatory is false thinking. Read Romans nine. God does not work on our terms. To say "God saves all from Hell" is very egotistical thinking. We are not important only God is important. We do not exist only God exists. Listen to my words. God has created some to be objects of mercy and others objects of justice. Everything is created to bring glory to God. We cannot escape our destiny which is to bring glory to God. We can either bring glory to God's justice or to God's mercy. If we want to bring glory to God's justice then we must sin as much as we can so on judgment day we will be judged and condemned to Hell and through this bring much glory to God in His ultimate unwavering justice. Or we can believe in Jesus and bear much fruit so God may be glorified on the last day when God's children will cast their crowns and riches before God in order to glorify the One who deserves all glory and honor.

Another thing,
I believe you said "Those who believe in eternal torment in Hell sympathize with those who are going to Hell" or something like that. I do not sympathize with those going to Hell because I have forsaken every attachment that this world has to offer, and in its place I have inserted the Holy Spirit of Truth. Those who are going to Hell will suffer. Will I feel sorry for them; no. Will I feel happy for them; no. Will I feel apathetic; yes. I will feel apathetic because I have no place in my heart for worldly attachments. Right now if I was to see someone suffering because of sin my heart would be troubled only because it is human nature to sympathize with others, but I am confidant that once I am released from this body I will no longer dwell on those in Hell for my dwellings will be filled to overflowing with God's mercy.

rodgertutt · Post by **rodgertutt** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:13 pm

SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unive ... -bible.htm

http://richardwaynegarganta.com/Underst ... %20One.htm

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/InFavorCh20.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ScripturalProofs.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Bible-Proofs-modern.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/fewsaved.htm

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Hell_ ... rever.html

Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/GatesOfHell.html

Also see four scriptural expositions expounding Universal Reconciliation at

http://concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/doubts.html

http://concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/1cor15.html

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/index.html

http://gtft.org/Library/condon/Question ... nswers.htm

Regarding the most common argument that the same word for "punishment" is also used for "life" see the following:

http://www.savior-of-all.com/aionian.html

All three of these articles should be studied with care, especially the third one.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon1.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon2.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon3.html

also see

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/aion.html
http://concordant.org/version/tranprin.html
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm

A little test about the word "ALL" that's found in Scripture.

If Truth is changed to not be all inclusive, when the context renders that it should be it then becomes error.

Reconsider the following Scriptures, without using any preconceived thoughts or forced interpretation upon them. This may be more difficult to do than first realized, because we all resort to an immediate interpretation of something based on our past understandings of the verse.

The darkest doctrine ever devised by men was that of an "eternal suffering" for the billions of souls that die lost without Christ.
Like wolves among the sheep, carnally-minded men within the church system found it very effective to use the fear of an unending hell to control the masses that enter their religion.
Unfortunately this doctrine has remained at large in Christianity as a whole.

The Lord Jesus said, "When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men to myself." - John 12:32
LOOK AT THE VERSES WITH THE WORD ALL

Savior of all, especially believers (1 Tim 4:9-11)

http://www.tentmaker.org/Dew/Dew7/D7-Es ... lieve.html

God wills that all mankind be saved (1 Tim 2:4)

Operating all in accord with counsel of His will (Eph 1:11)

In Adam all dying; in Christ shall all be vivified (1 Cor 15:21-23)

It says "in Christ shall all," not "all who are in Christ."

One offense for all mankind for condemnation... (Rom 5:18-19)

Lamb of God taking away sin of the world (John 1:29)

Correspondent ransom for all (1 Tim 2:6)

Every knee bowing in the Name of Jesus (Phil 2:9; Is 45:23)
“in” is the literal Greek translation. See Young’s Literal Translation
and every tongue acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord.

And we know that anyone who acclaims that Jesus Christ is Lord,
especially when it is to God's glory without any hypocrisy is saved for 1Corinthians 12:3 says so.

Locks all in stubbornness; to be merciful to all (Rom 11:30-32)

All created ... to reconcile all (Col 1:16-20)

He should be tasting death for the sake of everyone (Heb 2:9)

That the world might be saved thru Him (John 3:17)

God was in Christ conciliating the world to Himself (2 Cor 5:18)

For our sins, not ours only but the whole world (1 John 2:2)

Glostik91 · Post by **Glostik91** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:46 pm

You do make a good argument for universalism, but what do you have to say about Matthew 25:46 and Jude 1:7? These verses say eternal punishment, not just temporary. Therefore there must be some people who are sent into Hell eternally.

Another question. If I choose not to believe in Jesus then will I go to Hell or will I still go to Heaven because God wants me there? John says "but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." I believe your suggesting that on the last day when everyone will confess Jesus is Lord, this will be the statement of faith for everyone who confesses it. But every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord in heaven and on earth and under the earth. Does this include the demons?

And what of Mark 3:29? This person can't be forgiven of their sin. Will they go to heaven?

And what about Galatians 1:6-9? There was obviously some heretics who were preaching another gospel. Why else would Paul write this to them. If someone preaches another gospel will they be eternally condemned?

And what about Hebrews 6:4-8? If those who are enlightened to the Truth and then reject the Truth, will they enter heaven or will they go to Hell? An exegetical reading of these passages clearly indicate some sort of eternal punishment for some. Even the passages you gave me could be taken in a different way when translated from the Greek. "All" could mean from all tribes and languages (tongues) meaning God's gift of salvation is for gentiles and Jews. Let's read John 12:32 with this understanding:
But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all tribes and tongues to myself." This is a perfectly acceptable exegetical reading of the verse. I see no problem with this interpretation.

Romans nine says what if God made with great care objects designed for wrath. Can the clay say to the potter, "Make me this way." No of course not. The potter will choose what the clay will be made to perform. You say "I believed in Jesus' death for salvation" but eternal Life doesn't come just from Jesus' death, but from his entire life too. So many Christians forget this. What is eternal Life? To know God and Jesus Christ whom God has sent. How do we know God? By believing in Jesus. Where do we learn about Jesus so we can believe in Him? Read the gospels of Matt, Mark, Luke, John, and parts of Thomas that agree with the four previous gospels.

You also say something like "I cannot love a God that sends people to Hell". I've heard many people say the same thing. They claim God is malevolent when He sends people to Hell. If you cannot love a God that sends people to Hell then you are under a delusion. You take your postmodern culture and place it on the Bible saying that no one will go to Hell because God is too loving and kind to send anyone to Hell so let's all come together harmoniously and live together in peace. Its either this or you were never destined to love God.

God demonstrates his love by sending his Son to die, but how does God demonstrate his justice when there is no one to condemn. God said he hated Esau. How can you justify this hatred of God? Was God sinning when he hated Esau? God has every right to hate his creation. We must realize that God manifests himself through love and hate. He manifests His mercy through love and His justice through hate. It is the ego that causes us to believe God couldn't send anyone to Hell forever. Remember, we are not important, only God is important. We do not exist, only God exists. Remember this. And as you come to the realization that some of humanity does go to Hell forever do not be troubled. Remember that if you are a child of God you do not exist as an individual but you exist as a body with Christ as the head and leader. Look to Christ and be one with God as the Spirit of Truth is imparted to you who believe in Jesus. Once you are enlightened you will leave the "wheel of samsara" or as I call it the roller coaster of sin and you will slip effortlessly into "nirvana" or as I like to call it the train of Godliness.

I also wanted to leave you with this passage from 2 Thessalonians 1:
5All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Glostik91 · Post by **Glostik91** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:51 pm

btw: I'm impressed at the speed with which you answered me. :)

rodgertutt · Post by **rodgertutt** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 9:06 pm

Glostik91 wrote:You do make a good argument for universalism, but what do you have to say about Matthew 25:46 and Jude 1:7? These verses say eternal punishment, not just temporary. Therefore there must be some people who are sent into Hell eternally.

Another question. If I choose not to believe in Jesus then will I go to Hell or will I still go to Heaven because God wants me there? John says "but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." I believe your suggesting that on the last day when everyone will confess Jesus is Lord, this will be the statement of faith for everyone who confesses it. But every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord in heaven and on earth and under the earth. Does this include the demons?

And what of Mark 3:29? This person can't be forgiven of their sin. Will they go to heaven?

And what about Galatians 1:6-9? There was obviously some heretics who were preaching another gospel. Why else would Paul write this to them. If someone preaches another gospel will they be eternally condemned?

And what about Hebrews 6:4-8? If those who are enlightened to the Truth and then reject the Truth, will they enter heaven or will they go to Hell? An exegetical reading of these passages clearly indicate some sort of eternal punishment for some. Even the passages you gave me could be taken in a different way when translated from the Greek. "All" could mean from all tribes and languages (tongues) meaning God's gift of salvation is for gentiles and Jews. Let's read John 12:32 with this understanding:
But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all tribes and tongues to myself." This is a perfectly acceptable exegetical reading of the verse. I see no problem with this interpretation.

Romans nine says what if God made with great care objects designed for wrath. Can the clay say to the potter, "Make me this way." No of course not. The potter will choose what the clay will be made to perform. You say "I believed in Jesus' death for salvation" but eternal Life doesn't come just from Jesus' death, but from his entire life too. So many Christians forget this. What is eternal Life? To know God and Jesus Christ whom God has sent. How do we know God? By believing in Jesus. Where do we learn about Jesus so we can believe in Him? Read the gospels of Matt, Mark, Luke, John, and parts of Thomas that agree with the four previous gospels.

You also say something like "I cannot love a God that sends people to Hell". I've heard many people say the same thing. They claim God is malevolent when He sends people to Hell. If you cannot love a God that sends people to Hell then you are under a delusion. You take your postmodern culture and place it on the Bible saying that no one will go to Hell because God is too loving and kind to send anyone to Hell so let's all come together harmoniously and live together in peace. Its either this or you were never destined to love God.

God demonstrates his love by sending his Son to die, but how does God demonstrate his justice when there is no one to condemn. God said he hated Esau. How can you justify this hatred of God? Was God sinning when he hated Esau? God has every right to hate his creation. We must realize that God manifests himself through love and hate. He manifests His mercy through love and His justice through hate. It is the ego that causes us to believe God couldn't send anyone to Hell forever. Remember, we are not important, only God is important. We do not exist, only God exists. Remember this. And as you come to the realization that some of humanity does go to Hell forever do not be troubled. Remember that if you are a child of God you do not exist as an individual but you exist as a body with Christ as the head and leader. Look to Christ and be one with God as the Spirit of Truth is imparted to you who believe in Jesus. Once you are enlightened you will leave the "wheel of samsara" or as I call it the roller coaster of sin and you will slip effortlessly into "nirvana" or as I like to call it the train of Godliness.

I also wanted to leave you with this passage from 2 Thessalonians 1:
5All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Most of your concerns are responded to at this link.
If you find that this is not so, let me know, and I will respond futher.
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThr ... ained.html

Regarding Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal” see
http://www.savior-of-all.com/aionian.html
and
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.shtml

Jude 7 should read "age-during fire."

No two words in the history of man have been so torturing as aion and aionion. No two words in the history of man, mishandled by man, have contributed more to the physical, emotional and spiritual harm of so many, than these. You may think I must be exaggerating. But I am not. It is the mistranslation of these two words that has foisted the false and destructive doctrine of eternal torment upon the church and the world.

Mistranslation of the Greek words "aion" and “aionion” is a master stroke of diabolical genius. No other words erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert man’s image of God and cause such widespread confusion. The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after scriptural truth will be aided in their quest.
CHART OF GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html

Also see
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html
(especially note the quotes by the many Greek scholars in chapters three and twelve)

Also see
TIME AND ETERNITY A BIBLICAL STUDY
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/time/

Glostik91 · Post by **Glostik91** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:52 pm

It is not JUST (fair) to put man (who did not ask to be born) into a world totally blind to his own sin, with a tempter who seeks to deceive him, who inherits a body of death which constantly opposes God’s law, with many voices in the world saying “this is truth” or “that is truth,” with divisions and strife among the very people (the Church) who are supposed to have the truth, and then give this man maybe twenty, fifty, or seventy years, and burn him in hell for all eternity if he doesn’t make the right 'choice.'

This is quoted from this website: http://www.savior-of-all.com/aionian.html

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

This is quoted from Romans 9: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... version=31;

I want to ask you a question. Why do you find it impossible to love a God that sends his creations to Hell? Let's take the potter and the clay example. The potter makes a pot out of clay. The potter uses that pot for his toilet. The potter makes another pot. He uses this pot to hold beautiful flowers in the middle of the room. Does the pot used as a toilet have any right to question the potter's motives? The Spirit of Truth is stirring within me. When people are sent to Hell they are not sent outside of time. They remain within the realm of time. When people are glorified in heaven they are not outside the realm of time. They still remain in the realm of time. God manifests Himself through everything. God manifests himself as the Father but God is so much more than this. If God was just the Father then God isn't anything opposite of the Father. But God is everything and nothing so God has to be the Father and everything opposite of the Father. How can anything exist without God? Everything can't exist without God and nothing can't exist without God. God manifests Himself as eternal, but God is much more than eternal.

Now, back to some other questions:
Mark 3:29 says "never be forgiven" and "eternal sin". What do you have to say about this teaching?
Also, what about Hebrews 6:4-8 along with John 15:6? Do they get forgiven on the last day?

I have been sent by God through belief in Jesus Christ to show that you are under a delusion that has been shoved upon you by delusional people. Believe in Jesus and you will receive the Spirit of Truth which will free you from delusion.

Ps: and please do not forget to answer my question: "Why do you find it impossible to love a God that sends his creations to Hell?"

rodgertutt · Post by **rodgertutt** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:40 pm

Why I can't love a god who would sustain anyone alive in a state of inescabable suffering forever.
http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html
or
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savio ... larity.htm

The unforgivable sin is an attitude. It is the attitude of attributing to Satan what is really of God. Attitudes cannot be forgiven. They must change.

But having had the attitude can and will be forgiven when, through the enlightenment of the Spirit of God, the wrong attitude gets changed. And having had the attitude will be forgiven after the age to come.

Instead of being forgiven the sinner will suffer the consequences. But the consequences are not eternal. They are what the Bible calls kolasis aionian which mean age-during corrective chastisement. Mark's language "hath never forgiveness" should read "has not forgiveness to the age, but is liable to aionian judgment;” that is, to an indefinite penalty.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html

Here are good links on the subject of the unforgivable sin.

http://www.godfire.net/eby/unpardonable.html

http://hellbusters.8m.com/nounpardonablesin.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savio ... le-sin.htm

http://www.savior-of-all.com/blasphemy.html

BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThr ... ained.html
scroll down and click on
THE BLASPHEMY OF THE HOLY GHOST

rodgertutt · Post by **rodgertutt** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:45 pm

The world’s most evil beliefs & the most important issue

The eternal torment theology of the Arminian Christian relies on so-called “free will” and luck.

The god that Arminian Christian eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

“Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don’t have the good sense to cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever.”

The eternal torment theology of the Calvinist Christian relies on God alone, not “free will” at all. It is summed up by the word TULIP: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and the Perseverance of the elect.

The god that Calvinistic Christian eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

"I created most of you for the purpose of torturing you forever. However, I am going to choose a few of you undeserving ones to go to heaven where you will be happy forever." John Calvin said there will be infants a span long in hell because they were not among the elect. (A span is the distance between the tip of the thumb to the tip of the little finger.)

And then both the Arminian and Calvinistic eternal tormentors say that the feelings that they have for this god of theirs is “love.”

Without God’s sustaining power everyone would cease to exist. So if anyone were to suffer forever, our all-powerful God (Who is Love in essence, not just loving) would be fully 100% responsible for it. We would have to conclude that any definition of the manifestation of “love-in-essence” includes eternally sustaining people alive in an inescapable state of suffering.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savio ... larity.htm

What a travesty; what a revolting definition of love it is that God, Who is love personified, would grant any creature a will so strong that they can choose themselves into an irreversible state of never ending suffering (Arminian) or deserve to suffer forever just by being born into the human race (Calvinist)!!

Thank God the Bible does not teach such insane ideas!
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm

Copy and paste one of the following titles into Google
SAVIOR OF THE WORLD SERIES EBY
Or
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
Or
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY

Anyone is welcome to believe anything they want to about what the Bible teaches.

I'm just so glad I learned about the following information.
It enabled me to recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78.
I'm 70 now.
I, and many others with whom I have become acquainted, simply could not successfully emotionally cope with the idea that God would let anyone suffer forever. Here is the testimony of Charles Slagle who went insane for the same reasons that I did.
Copy and paste the following title into Google
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST or click on
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute ... hrist.html
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm

Eternal Torment Calvinism, Eternal Torment Arminianism, Annihilation, or Christian Biblical Universalism.

Which one of the four is the truth?

This debate nearly always ends with the words, "My Greek scholars are more reliable
than your Greek scholars," and the result is a stalemate.

If readers think it glorifies God more to believe that He is going to let some of His
creatures suffer forever or annihilate them, then they should keep believing that.
But if they think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their
greatest and deepest need, which is a change in their stubborn will, then I would like
them to know that that is exactly what the Bible teaches that God is like.

THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE

The findings of Greek scholar Louis Abbott and the other Greek scholars quoted in
chapters three and twelve of his online book IMHO renders all other arguments irrelevant.

IMHO these findings effectively close the case on the arguments that eternal tormentors try so hard to uphold.
But of course one has to actually read them to see what I mean.

Just Google up AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS and enjoy, or click on
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html

• Eternal Death Annihilation
• http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html
• Bible Threatenings Explained
• http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThr ... ained.html
• Universal Salvation University
• http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm

rodgertutt · Post by **rodgertutt** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:47 pm

A PHONE CONVERSATION WITH A MUSLIM MISSIONARY

A Muslim missionary called me on my ministry phone in response to my newspaper ad “HELL IS NOT ENDLESS.”
(I have sent out many hundreds of packets of literature to people who responded to these ads that I have put in two of Toronto’s largest newspapers since 1981.)

The Muslim missionary said “Unless you convert to Islam you WILL go to hell.”

I said, “That’s what some Christians say if I don’t convert to Christianity.”

He said, “But the difference is that Islam has the truth.”

I said, “That’s what some Christians say about their beliefs.”

He said, “After you die you will learn that the Koran is the word of God and Islam has the truth.”

I said, “I guess I’ll just have to wait until then to find out for sure.”

He said, “But it will be too late for you then.”

I laughed and said, “That’s exactly what some Christians say.”

I don’t think he thought it was funny.

I then expected him to say what a Mormon missionary said to me in Montreal. “At the judgment, as you are being cast into hell, I will point my finger at you and say, ‘I told you so. I gave you a chance but you didn’t take it and now it’s too late’.”

It seems that we are supposed to believe that millions of Muslims, by sheer “accident” of birth, are born into a belief system that teaches their children that even to consider Christianity to be the truth will land them in an eternity of suffering in hell.

I believe that the horrific false doctrine of endless suffering in hell causes more suffering here on earth than any other idea that people believe. That is why it gives me such great pleasure to offer people the urls that contain evidence that the Bible does not support such a concept of God.

Just Google up TENTMAKER and use the search engine at the top of the front page. Type in a key word from any argument or Bible verse and ten articles will appear refuting the idea that the Bible teaches eternal torment or annihilation. Then click to the next page and ten more articles will appear, and so on and so on for many pages. Or click on

http://www.tentmaker.org/

Also Google up
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
or
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
Or
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
to find A LOT of scriptural evidence that God has both the ability and the intention to eventually save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved. Or click on

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savio ... /index.htm
or
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute ... hrist.html
or
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm

rodgertutt · Post by **rodgertutt** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:50 pm

CALVINISM VERSUS ARMINIANISM

Calvinism, Arminianism, or Christian Biblical Universalism

Which view of salvation is true?

These two links specifically respond to that question.

ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm

THE LAW OF CIRCULARITY – J.Preston Eby
http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html

Calvinism is a cruel and unloving profanity.

Arminianism is a proud and self-righteous profanity.

Calvinism is cruel and unloving because it claims that God allows beings to come into existence that deserve to suffer endlessly, and will suffer endlessly, except for a few that God will rescue from such a fate by His irresistible grace.

Aminianism is proud and self-righteous because it claims that only those who receive the proper information, and act on it properly before they die, will avoid suffering endlessly. They claim that God is unable to successfully influence anyone's will, unless they let Him.

The Calvinist's god allows millions of beings to come into existence and either cannot, or will not, do anything to stop them from suffering forever.

The Arminian's god lets us down just when we need Him the most. Our greatest need is a change in our stubborn will. The Arminian god either cannot, or will not meet us, on this, the level of our greatest need.

A profanity is an idea conceived by our sinful hearts. Both Calvinism and Arminianism are profanities. Against the black background of these profanities God will paint the glorious masterpiece of universal transformation.

The truth of universal transformation solves all of the irreconcilable differences between Calvinism and Arminianism. It recognizes that our "free will" is the freedom to choose only in the direction of the strongest influence, and that God is in intimate sovereign control over all influences.

Each person is being fitted into God's master-plan in God's own special way for them. Each person responds to their own unique set of "strongest influences." And ultimately, when the time period of the ages has ended, God will have transformed the consequences of everyone's choices into something glorifying to Himself, and beneficial to the chooser.

It is unavoidable that how we think about God will affect our state of being. We tend to become like the god we worship. The one who puts their faith in Calvinism, tends to become cruel and unloving. The one who puts their faith in Arminianism, tends to become proud and self-righteous. If a Calvinist is not cruel and unloving, or, if an Arminian is not proud and self-righteous, it is entirely due to the intervention of God's undefeatable grace through Christ. God often operates through people in spite of what they believe.

God's grace can only be resisted if God wants to teach us lessons that could be learned no other way. But ultimately, God's grace is undefeatable.

Both Calvinism and Arminianism are built upon the false foundation of "endless hell." When this foundation has been replaced, the differences between them become irrelevant.

The profanity of the doctrine of "endless suffering in hell" is also part of the black background upon which God will paint His glorious masterpiece. Without fail, God will, in due time, transform all deceptions, delusions, and false doctrines, into something better that they temporarily prevailed than if they had not. And He will do this for everyone, without exception.

Calvinism, Arminianism, or Christian Biblical Universalism
WHICH VIEW OF SALVATION IS TRUE?

These two links specifically respond to that question.

ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm

THE LAW OF CIRCULARITY – J.Preston Eby
http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html

Or copy And paste into Google
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
or
THE LAW OF CIRCULARITY

Glostik91 · Post by **Glostik91** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:05 am

Firstly, you insist that I must be a Calvinist or an Arminian. I am neither. I believe in Jesus, therefore Jesus has given to me the Spirit of Truth. The cause of my belief was Jesus' teachings. The apostles wrote down Jesus' teachings so I could be drawn to them and therein receive eternal life. And eternal life is to know God and Jesus Christ whom God has sent.

Secondly, what is the difference between happiness and sadness or pain and pleasure? Does one take priority over the other? All functions within the realm of causality which is a manifestation of God. I know God is just in that only those who do evil will be condemned. God judges justly. If that means people in Hell only suffer for a period of time then I do not know what comes next for them because the Spirit has only revealed to me what Jesus has given the Spirit of Truth to reveal. However I do know that you eisegete Mark 3:29 when you say: "Mark's language "hath never forgiveness" should read "has not forgiveness to the age, but is liable to aionian judgment;” that is, to an indefinite penalty". Can you not see the delusion? I am the mirror, look into me and see the distorted figure you are becoming. Jesus says those who commit this sin cannot be forgiven, yet you say they can be forgiven. Let me ask you this. If God is purely love then why doesn't God become an angel and die for the demons? Wouldn't this bring him more glory? Would it really? Does God know what brings Him glory and what doesn't or do we have to tell Him what really brings Him more glory? God sustains a place called Hell which has been described as a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth. If God sustains it then it is a manifestation of who God is. God demonstrates his love with those that are predetermined and God demonstrates his justice with those that are predetermined. Going to Hell is completing the same task as going to Heaven. If one is saved from Hell by going to Heaven can it not be that another is saved from Heaven by going to Hell? Open your eyes to your delusion. You cannot even speak through the Spirit, but you rather rely on others who have formulated their own works. You believe that the creators of these websites are enlightened beings capable of true interpretation merely because it soothes your aching heart. But you do not really seek Truth. You seek happiness. Happiness is your first love. Truth can take a back seat for now. I tell you; you will be condemned for such love. Believe in Jesus and He will give you the Spirit of Truth. I know what I speak is Truth because it comes from the Holy Spirit of Truth which has been given to me through a belief in Jesus Christ.

24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. 30By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Those who don't believe in Jesus are dead. Jesus came into the world to resurrect the dead to life. Then on the last day those who have done good by believing in Jesus will rise and live. And those who have done evil by not believing in Jesus will rise and be condemned. This also seems to correlate with the Matthew 25 passage. Those who do good will enter in eternal life. Those who do evil will enter into eternal punishment.

Another thing, I will take the document on why you can’t love a God that sends people to Hell as if you were to write that whole thing on this forum because in essence that is what you did.

Our Lord Jesus Christ is the Creator and Sustainer of ALL things and ALL people. He either does or allows everything that is done in heaven or on earth. If one hundred billion helpless human beings are being tortured, then Jesus is doing it. Satan has brought suffering and death to the whole human race. However, if eternal torment IS TRUE, then Jesus Christ will torture forever the whole human race, except the small handful who will be saved. In one hour, in a hot searing hell, our Lord will inflict more pain and agony on each person than Satan inflicted on that person during his entire life.
If this torture lasts throughout eternity, then each unsaved person will suffer more than all the suffering of all the people that ever lived on earth. Think of it! Billions have suffered horrible pain for hours, days, weeks, months, and years, during the time they were alive. And yet, after they die, EVERY unsaved person will suffer more agony than all the suffering of the whole race PUT TOGETHER from Adam until now. This is so horrible, so frightful, that it is difficult for our minds to grasp. Except Satan himself, Pharaoh, Nero, and Hitler were among the most horrible killers of men this world has ever known. Yet, the doctrine of eternal torture makes Jesus a million times more vicious and vindictive than these three put together. You see, these brutal murderers killed their victims. Death brought sweet relief in a moment of time. However, that Man of Galilee, that Man whom we love, praise, and worship, that Man who taught that we should forgive four hundred and ninety times a day, that Man who told us that we should love our enemies and bless them that curse us, that Man who died for all men, will never, never forgive ANYONE who has rejected Him in this frail life, or, worse yet, who merely failed to believe on Him during this brief time. Instead of torturing them for a season and then ending their suffering with death, He will torture them through all eternity.

I see no problem with this. Perfection is fulfilling a standard. God has a standard. If we don’t fulfill this standard then God can do as he wishes with us. If I believe in Jesus and God still sent me to Hell I would be fine with it even though God lied to me. If God lies to me then what am I to do? Do I confront him? How can I confront God? Jesus Christ has every right to judge every one of us to a place of agony because all judgment has been given to Jesus Christ. You make Jesus out to be evil because of this. What about those who live in third world countries? What about those who live on less than a dollar a day? What about those whose parents died from AIDS? Why doesn’t Jesus end their suffering? Jesus let’s them suffer, therefore Jesus is evil. Stop applying your ego to God. You are not important only God is important! YOU DO NOT EXIST AS YOURSELF!!! YOU ONLY EXIST AS GOD!!!

Even the hardest, cruelest, most brutal men cannot torture their fellow men for more than two or three hours without growing weak, faint, and sick (see Fox Book of Martyrs). However, Christian leaders teach that our Lord will torture His victims through endless ages. The Scripture reveals that Christ Jesus is the kindest, the most tender-hearted and merciful Person this world has ever known. His mercy endures forever, or to all generations of time. The doctrine of eternal torment pictures Him to be the most horrible monster, the most beastly, brutal, cruel, vicious Person this world has ever known. The governments of this world, ruled by unregenerated men, put their rebels in prisons, and the very worst offenders they put to death. But our Lord Jesus Christ, the Creator and Redeemer of the world, will mercilessly torture those who offend Him to the most hideous and incomprehensible degree. Surely, this pagan and Romish doctrine of eternal torture does NOT glorify HIM!

How can you apply our wickedness to Jesus? Don’t you see how crazy this is? Jesus cannot be wicked just as light cannot be darkness. Evil or delusion is simply a lack of enlightenment just as darkness is a lack of light. Hell is not evil. Hell is full of enlightened people. They are enlightened not as we are enlightened. We do not understand the awesome justice of God. We do not even understand fully the awesome mercy of God. Once we are in heaven we will fully understand the awesome glorious mercy of God. Once we are in Hell we will fully understand the awesome glorious magnificent justice of God. God manifests himself through everything. God can even manifest himself through delusion. Isn’t that amazing? Look at your ego. What you feel about your ego is how God feels about himself. That’s unbelievable. God is the only one who has an ego because that’s the only ego that exists.

Edit: I changed two instances of God to Jesus (My bad. The post is so big something was bound to get lost in translation)

One of the theologians of the Church of England (Jeremy Taylor) speaks of the fate of the wicked in the following terms: "In hell every sense and organ shall be assailed forever with its own appropriate and most exquisite sufferings. We are amazed at the inhumanity of Phalaris who roasted men in his brazen bull, but THAT WAS A JOY IN COMPARISON WITH HELL." And here is what the renowned evangelist, C. H. Spurgeon, said on the same subject: "There is real fire in hell. The body shall be suffused with agony; your head tormented with racking pains; your eyes starting from their sockets; your ears tortured with horrid sounds; your pulse rattling with anguish; your limbs crackling in the flame; every vein a pathway for the fire to tread; every nerve a string on which the devil shall forever play the diabolical tune of hell's unutterable lament."
If it were true, it is so awful that it should never be spoken without tears and a broken heart. How does the mother of a murderer speak of the corning execution of her boy? Yet the prospect to her is only one of time, and in the limits of the physical. If the people believe it, then their attitude about the whole thing reveals that they could care less if the creation burns forever. The fact is, NO ONE really believes in an eternal burning hell if we are to judge by their actions. If they saw a person in a burning building, they would put forth every effort to save them; they would cry and scream for help; they would be late for work; they would not rest until the victims were rescued. Yet, those who teach eternal torment can spend their hours relaxing in front of the television screen, visiting and feasting upon rich dainties with their friends, and whole days in camping, vacationing, fishing, and playing, and then lay their heads upon a pillow every night and sleep soundly, while, according to their own teaching, countless millions are going to a place a million times worse than a burning building!
If they believed what they teach, they would never cease, day and night until they dropped, and others came to take their places, in their efforts to save men from such a place! They excuse themselves by saying, "All we can do is warn." But if they were standing before a burning building would they preach a thirty-minute sermon, then turn and walk away, saying, "All we can do is warn!" And how many do they meet day after day, and never mention their danger? Ah, precious friend of mine, if my concept of hell were what modern Christendom's is, then it is my conviction that I would not be able to wait for God to send me to preach the Gospel! I would have to spend my every wakened hour pleading, working, struggling, fighting to save men from such a fate. I would be compelled to spend hours upon hours in the chronic wards of hospitals, in rest homes, with the elderly and those working on dangerous jobs, begging men to repent and turn to Jesus before they die. And I am convinced that anyone with the love of God in his heart would do the same IF HE REALLY BELIEVED the fables that are being taught today about hell. I will say this, either those who teach eternal torture are EXTREMELY CALLOUSED or they do not believe what they teach!

First, only take church fathers teaching to be fact if you think they are enlightened. Otherwise don’t accept their teaching.

Second, there is a point made here. People are too selfish and too caught up in worldly things to act on things unseen. The problem is the ego. Through the ego comes the wrong motivation. We are not moved to do too much unless we learn the hard way. If a Christian were to visit Hell for a few seconds they would proclaim to the world Jesus Christ without fear. We also tend to forget other people’s suffering. This is another manifestation of the ego. The church fathers were trying to create an unforgettable experience for people that they could identify with their own suffering. No one on earth truly knows every single detail of the suffering, but it doesn’t hurt to speculate.

Another thing, Jesus is the fulfillment of God’s standard. Jesus only came to save those who have been called. Remember the parable “Pearls before swine”. If the causes I’m putting against you do not bring you out of your delusion then I will leave you for it is unwise to cast your pearls before swine once you realize they are swine.

George Hawtin has so aptly written: "Is it any wonder that in the face of such sadistic humbug there has been a wholesale manufacture of infidels? All these statements (by eternal hell-fire preachers) may be a show of oratorical eloquence, but they are nothing more. They hold no part of truth. They deny every attribute of God. They make wisdom foolishness, turn eternal love into exasperated hate, make omnipotence helplessness, and make the justice of God the grossest injustice in the universe. To say that I believe in such repugnance would be a lie of the first order. I do not believe it because it is contrary to the nature of God. It is contrary to the love of God. It is contrary to the justice of God. It is contrary to the power of God. It is contrary to the Word of God and it puts God in the ridiculous position of being the almighty King of kings and Lord of lords yet having dominion a vast pocket of hate and resistance that even He cannot overcome. Further than this it makes the mighty sacrifice of Christ that was made for all the world to be almost impotent in its power and scope. Worst of all, it frustrates the purpose of God laid down in the beginning when He said, 'Let us make man in our image and after our likeness.' Some will immediately ask me whether I do not believe in hell. My answer is very definite on this point. I most certainly DO BELIEVE in hell, but the hell of the Bible and the hell of human tradition are not the same thing at all. The hell of tradition is hopeless and eternal, while the hell of the Scripture like every judgment of God is corrective, remedial, and restorative." -end quote.

Let me ask you this. I assume you believe in a temporary Hell. What comes after Hell?

Btw: nothing can be contrary to God. God manifests himself through contradictions.

I do not like to differ, even in minor things, from those whom I esteem for their devotion to Christ and their valuable service in the cause of His Kingdom. But in the immortal words of the great Martin Luther, "Here I stand - I can do no other. So help me God!" Long centuries ago the faithful apostle Peter penned these inspired words, "Who by the power of God are kept through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (I Pet. 1:5). My conviction before God is that the extent of the salvation of Jesus, the Christ, our Lord, is to be known only in the last time. Jesus Himself said to His disciples, "I have yet many things to say unto you, but you cannot bear them now." But He said when the Holy Spirit should come, He would lead his people step by step - patiently lead them into the way of All Truth; so that when the last time (end of the age) came, the full revelation of that salvation would be made. I believe that I am writing in the last time. Writings of this kind do not endear the hearts of many people. I fear that enemies are made instead. Every time a truth is spoken, many become offended and many are filled with wrath. People always astonish me. It is never possible to know what attitude they will take under any given circumstance. They will believe and trust you and feed from your table, and for many years, only to become suddenly offended because of some point upon which they disagree, and often become hostile and sometimes even vicious, calling you a heretic and a false prophet, cutting you off from an fellowship and spiritual communication, and warning other saints near and far not to have anything to do with you.
I am also perfectly aware that these profound truths will be misapplied by another class, and some will twist and wrest them to their own destruction in their carnal and wicked endeavor to set aside all repentance of sin and annul all holiness of life, as some men in their zeal to display the grace of God have done, ridiculously living in sin and turning the grace of God into lasciviousness (Jude 4). These beautiful truths are not now written to men of corrupt minds who have no desire to walk in the Spirit, but to all who walk in the whole counsel of God, serving God because they love and know Him and not in fear of some dreadful judgment that hangs like a horrible terror before their eyes. I do not address those who would pervert the right ways of the Lord, using God's gracious plan and His great mercy as an excuse for careless living or unconcern for lost men, but to those children of the Most High God who, seeing their infinite identity in Christ, are consumed with the holy passion of becoming the very instrument of God to fight the good fight of faith, destroying sin and death and hell, and bringing all men back into the loving embrace of their God and Redeemer. So be it!

There is truth in these words but be vigilant. I sense a taste of egotism in these words. Walk in the way of truth which is the Holy Spirit of Truth. The Holy Spirit is synonymous with Truth. Universal reconciliation is an egotistic doctrine. It tugs at your own emotions and feelings. This man claims truth and he has some truth but because of his string of delusion (or perhaps illusion) his testimony cannot be heard by those who are enlightened. That is why you must be vigilant.

I find all the judgments of God to be correctional and disciplinary rather than vindictive and final.

He cannot mean in this world because there are some judgments that are vindictive and final in this world.

God will become All-in-All.

What? God will become? God already is All-in-All. Unless he means God will become All-in-All again.

Several brethren have written or discussed this subject with me through the years, adamant against the truth I see. But their arguments are shallow and twisted and their spirits generally harsh against men whom God loves and for whom the Christ died, as though they wanted to make CERTAIN that everybody gets every thing they "deserve." Their theology is lopsided, distorted, out of balance, and it will be smashed in the end! Those who walk in that attitude know but little of the love of Him who is at the same time the JUDGE OF ALL and the SAVIOUR OF ALL. He is not the Judge of some and the Savior of some, but both Judge and Savior of ALL! If "Judge of ALL" means that He judges all, then "Savior of ALL" must mean that He saves all, for the Scriptures plainly make both statements. Within that one fact again can be seen the HARMONIZATION of the justice and the love of God - His judgment leading to repentance and a knowledge of His mercy. Praise His wonderful name!

I saw this coming. You must believe that I am delusional. Do you claim to be enlightened? When Jesus says Judge of All and Savior of All he means judge of all nations, tribes, and tongues and savior of all nations, tribes, and tongues. This isn’t limited to Jews but is inclusive to all people. Jesus has the potential to save all. God wants all to be saved, but what else does God want? Does God want some to go to Hell? Yes. God hated Esau. Is this hate sin?

Romans 9:17-18 says: "For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."

When Paul says God wants all to be saved there is an apparent contradiction. If God wants all individuals to be saved then why does God hate Esau or harden Pharaoh?

The next part of the website you gave me doesn’t appear to be in response to my question, but please correct me if I’m wrong.

After looking over my post I realized that this is a very large post which makes it hard to read. So in the future I'll probably split up my large posts with smaller ones so you and anyone else can focus on them easier. ;)

rodgertutt · Post by **rodgertutt** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:22 am

You can love an endless-hell god. I can't.
Since you can love an endless-hell god I have no interest in taking the vast amount of time it would take to persue the subject point by point with you. I spend most of each day reaching out to the many people online who cannot love an endless-hell god.

Anyone is welcome to believe anything they want to about what the Bible teaches. I posted on this forum to give people an alternate point of view. Had I known that one existed I never would have had a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78 over my inability to love a god who would allow anyone to WANT to or have to suffer forever rather than eventually reach out for the salvation that God has provided. I'm 70 years old now.

THE FOLLOWING HAS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE TRUE REGARDING THE DEBATE ABOUT ETERNAL TORMENT

The argument about “eternal hell” nearly always gets bogged down with the words, “My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars,” and the result is nearly always a stalemate.
My Greek scholars are Louis Abbott and the many Greek scholars he quotes in chapters three and twelve. Copy and paste into Google
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS or click on
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html

Also see THE SCHOLAR’S CORNER at
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.

But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that that is exactly what God is like.

ON THE BASIS OF HAVING STUDIED THE EVIDENCE AVAILABLE TO YOU CHOOSE ONE
Choose to believe that the Bible teaches that God will sustain people alive in an inescapable state of eternal suffering.
Or
Choose to believe that God will annihilate (cause them to cease to exist) anyone who does not become a Christian before they die.
Or
Choose to believe what the following expositors reveal about what the Bible teaches.
Copy and paste into Google
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savio ... /index.htm
http://www.godfire.net/eby/saviour_of_the_world.html
Or
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute ... hrist.html
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm
Or
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm
Or
CHRISTIAN BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM
http://www.christian-universalism.com/links.html
Or
CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALISM
http://www.christianuniversalist.org
Or
ETERNAL DEATH ANNIHILATION?
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html
Or
Just What Do You Mean By The Word DESTRUCTION?
http://hell-fact-or-fable.com/destruction3.html
Or
WILL UNBELIEVERS BE ANNIHILATED (If necessary copy and paste the following url into your browser address bar)
http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/read.p ... or=||KNOCH, ADOLPH E||&type=&what=author

I myself, along with many others with whom I am acquainted, simply cannot love a god who would let anyone choose themselves into an inescapable state of eternal suffering (Arminian), or suffer forever just because they were born into the human race (Calvinist). Neither can we love a god who would snuff us out of existence just because we didn’t hear about Jesus before we died.

But we CAN love a god Who, because of His Son’s death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, will sooner or later save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved (including their stubborn wills). That’s the God that the above expositors see in the Bible. And that’s the God to Whom I joyously yield my heart in complete and total abandonment.

SO FOR US THE CHOICE IS EASY

See
How I recovered from a 12 year nervous breakdown (1966-78) I’m 70 years old.

I could have avoided a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) had I known as a youth about the following information concerning what a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches.

You can also access most of the following writings through Google by typing in the title.

BOOKS THAT SHOW THAT THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION, THE ENTIRE CONTENTS OF WHICH CAN BE READ ONLINE

If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into the address bar.

0. ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute ... hrist.html
1. HOPE BEYOND HELL - Gerry Beauchemin (recently published)
http://hopebeyondhell.net/Revised_Edition.pdf
2. CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm
3. THE BIBLE HELL - J.W. Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheBibleHell.html
4. THE ORIGIN AND HISTORY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT – Thomas Thayer
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html
5. THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm
6. JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN "HELL" - J. Preston Eby
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savio ... d/hell.htm
7. ONE HUNDRED SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT JESUS CHRIST WILL SAVE ALL MANKIND - Thomas Whittemore
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ScripturalProofs.html
8. TWENTY-FOUR SERMONS ON UNIVERSAL SALVATION – John Bovee Dods
http://www.tentmaker.org/Bovee2.htm#Top
9. THE SECOND DEATH AND THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew Jukes
http://www.tentmaker.org/restitutionindex.htm
10. ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY REASONS FOR BELIEVING IN THE FINAL SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND – Erasmus Manford
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/150reasons.html
11. THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS – J. Patching
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/RichMana ... ching.html
12. BIBLE TRANSLATIONS THAT DO NOT TEACH ETERNAL TORMENT – Gary Amirault
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/GatesOfHell.html
13. AION – AIONIOS – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
14. BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThr ... ained.html
15. THE CASE OF JUDAS, ETCETERA
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter16.html
16. THE PROBLEM OF EVIL – John Essex
AND THE ROLE OF THE ADVERSARY – James Webb
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TheProblemofEvil.html
17. HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE – James Coram
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchie ... index.html
18. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – Andrew Jukes
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/jukes2.html
19. THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – George Hawtin
http://www.godfire.net/restitutionHawtin.html
20. THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savio ... /index.htm
ESPECIALLY THIS ONE IN THAT SERIES
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savio ... larity.htm
21. THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
http://thegloryrd.com:80/apadams/evil.html
22. TEN REASONS NOT TO BELIEVE THE TEACHING OF ETERNALTORTURE
http://www.completerestorationinchrist. ... s-not.html
23. IS HELL ETERNAL OR WILL GOD’S PLAN FAIL?
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/is_hell_ ... index.html

Glostik91 · Post by **Glostik91** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:05 am

Please do not just skim over my words like they are a boring textbook. You insult me by doing so. Do I not make any points at all? Let me ask you a question. Are you important? Your actions indicate that you are above me and my teachings. If you do not answer me then I will no longer answer you for in not answering me you become a swine which I will not throw my pearls of wisdom to.

I will repost the pressing matter I saw within your previous statements:

Glostik91 wrote: Secondly, what is the difference between happiness and sadness or pain and pleasure? Does one take priority over the other? All functions within the realm of causality which is a manifestation of God. I know God is just in that only those who do evil will be condemned. God judges justly. If that means people in Hell only suffer for a period of time then I do not know what comes next for them because the Spirit has only revealed to me what Jesus has given the Spirit of Truth to reveal. However I do know that you eisegete Mark 3:29 when you say: "Mark's language "hath never forgiveness" should read "has not forgiveness to the age, but is liable to aionian judgment;” that is, to an indefinite penalty". Can you not see the delusion? I am the mirror, look into me and see the distorted figure you are becoming. Jesus says those who commit this sin cannot be forgiven, yet you say they can be forgiven. Let me ask you this. If God is purely love then why doesn't God become an angel and die for the demons? Wouldn't this bring him more glory? Would it really? Does God know what brings Him glory and what doesn't or do we have to tell Him what really brings Him more glory? God sustains a place called Hell which has been described as a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth. If God sustains it then it is a manifestation of who God is. God demonstrates his love with those that are predetermined and God demonstrates his justice with those that are predetermined. Going to Hell is completing the same task as going to Heaven. If one is saved from Hell by going to Heaven can it not be that another is saved from Heaven by going to Hell? Open your eyes to your delusion. You cannot even speak through the Spirit, but you rather rely on others who have formulated their own works. You believe that the creators of these websites are enlightened beings capable of true interpretation merely because it soothes your aching heart. But you do not really seek Truth. You seek happiness. Happiness is your first love. Truth can take a back seat for now. I tell you; you will be condemned for such love. Believe in Jesus and He will give you the Spirit of Truth. I know what I speak is Truth because it comes from the Holy Spirit of Truth which has been given to me through a belief in Jesus Christ.

Another, (while not as pressing, yet still deserves an answer.)

Glostik91 wrote: I saw this coming. You must believe that I am delusional. Do you claim to be enlightened? When Jesus says Judge of All and Savior of All he means judge of all nations, tribes, and tongues and savior of all nations, tribes, and tongues. This isn’t limited to Jews but is inclusive to all people. Jesus has the potential to save all. God wants all to be saved, but what else does God want? Does God want some to go to Hell? Yes. God hated Esau. Is this hate sin?

Romans 9:17-18 says: "For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden." God hardened Pharaoh's heart.

When Paul says God wants all to be saved there is an apparent contradiction. If God wants all individuals to be saved then why does God hate Esau or harden Pharaoh?

Glostik91 · Post by **Glostik91** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:07 am

My bad: you gave me a question so here's my answer:

I choose to believe that the Bible teaches that God will sustain some people alive in an inescapable state of eternal suffering.

(I added the word "some")

rodgertutt · Post by **rodgertutt** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:12 am

Glostik91 wrote:My bad: you gave me a question so here's my answer:

I choose to believe that the Bible teaches that God will sustain some people alive in an inescapable state of eternal suffering.

(I added the word "some")

Yes I understand that is what most people choose to believe.

But like I said before, anyone is welcome to believe anything they want to about what the Bible teaches.
I’m just so glad that I learned about the following information!!

People who can love an “eternal torment” or “annihilationist” god will not be interested in the following information

Copy and paste the following into Google.

THE LAW OF CIRCULARITY
http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html

But people who cannot love an “eternal torment” or “annihilationist” god will
discover that all of the arguments against the Bible teaching universal salvation have been refuted in the following links.

Copy and paste one of the following titles into Google

THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savio ... /index.htm

ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST
http://www.sigler.org/slagle/absolute.htm

BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThr ... ained.html

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html

INFORMATION ON HELL AND UNIVERSAL SALVATION
http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm

UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
http://richardwaynegarganta.com/universalsalvation.htm

AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html

THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html

THE SCHOLARS CORNER THE CENTER FOR BIBLE STUDIES
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Also Google up TENTMAKER and at the top of the front page type a key word or phrase from any argument or scripture passage into the search engine. Ten articles will come up refuting the claim that the Bible teaches eternal torment or annihilation. Then click to the next page and ten more articles will come up, and so on and so on for many pages.
The link to TENTMAKER is
http://www.tentmaker.org/

Glostik91 · Post by **Glostik91** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:28 am

unbelievable -_-

pearls before swine...

rodgertutt · Post by **rodgertutt** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:52 am

THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – Dr. Loyal Hurley
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/infinitegrace.htm

I believe that the strongest influence will prevail every time WITHOUT EXCEPTION

When it comes to what we believe, the strongest sets of influence always dictate what all of us choose every time without exception. It is impossible to choose what we do not prefer. The actual choosing of it proves that we prefer it, even though we may be attracted to a different influence to a lesser degree.

The strongest influence may be a combination of the influences that have been brought to bear upon us in the past, plus the influence that is being brought to bear upon us right now. But in the final analysis, the strongest influence always prevails every time. For example, try to believe differently than you do now. You can't can you? That's because there are influences so strong that they prevent you from thinking any differently than you do. Same thing goes for me, and the same thing goes for everyone.

I am so glad that I have a God Who is in intimate sovereign control over all strongest influences, and because of what Christ accomplished for us all by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, God will eventually transform all of the temporary negative consequences of our responses to strongest influences into something better that they temporarily prevailed. And He will eventually do this for every fallen creature without exception.
As my 96 year old dad says, "That's what makes Him God."

Concordant Christians believe that it is God's decretive will (that which MUST occur) that because we are all sinners by nature and cannot help but sin (which means miss the mark) because we are spiritually dead in trespasses and sin, we will all violate His preceptive will (that which we OUGHT to do) as much as we actually do. I believe that God justly imposes accountability on everyone even though they cannot help but do what they do, because through His intimate sovereign control of how far He lets everyone get involved in sinning and suffering (until He intervenes for each one by His sovereign grace) God is going to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that is uniquely applied to each individual. Contrary to what many people think, this does not cause us to live careless sinful lives because we love, and very much want to please a God like this.

The argument about “eternal hell” nearly always ends with the words, “My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars,” and the result is nearly always a stalemate.

MY GREEK SCHOLARS – Louis Abbott and the other Greek scholars he quotes in chapters 3 and 12.
Copy and paste into Google
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS or click on
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html

If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, then you keep believing that.

But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that that is exactly what God is like.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/index.html

You can Google up THE CONCORDANT PUBLISHING CONCERN

A few Concordant websites are
http://www.concordant.org/
http://www.saviourofall.org
http://gtft.org/
http://gtft.org/Library/index1.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/
http://concordant.org/expohtml/index.html

I think that ETers (eternal tormentors) who think it is right, and good, and just, and loving, and merciful, for God to sustain people alive in an inescapable state of never-ending suffering forever, or be annihilated, will choose to believe any and all evidences that seem to support the belief that the Bible teaches that perception of what God is like.

But URs (universal reconciliationists) who thinks it is right, and good, and just, and loving, and merciful, for God to successfully influence people so they will not suffer forever, will choose to believe any and all evidences that support the belief that the Bible teaches that perception of what God is like.

As far as I am concerned, you tell me which perception of God you see in the Bible, and I will know what kind of person you are, regardless of how impeccably righteous the behavior of the rest of your life may appear. But even though I may perceive you as being chosen by God to be a vessel of the grossest dishonor, I also believe that God will refashion you into a vessel of honor after your resurrection from the dead.

I repeat, the strongest sets of influences will always dictate what we choose to believe, every time, without exception. This is an irrefutable truth. The strongest influence may consist of all the influences that have been brought to bear upon us in the past, plus the influence that is being brought to bear upon us right now. But the strongest influence will cause us to choose in that direction EVERY TIME.

You have to believe what you believe, and so do I. Having examined the evidences that are available to us, we are both just as convinced that we are believing the absolute truth, and we will both probably die believing the way that we do now. We will all try to influence others as much as we feel we should, but within the wise counsel of His decretive will (that which MUST occur), God will decide how successful we will be.

In my life the strongest influence is the many pages of evidence that is contained in the tentmaker search engine about what a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches. See the search engine at the top of the front page at TENTMAKER.
You can Google it up. Or click on
http://www.tentmaker.org/

Type in any key word or phrase from any argument and access to ten articles will appear that refute the idea that the Bible teaches eternal torment or annihilation. Then click to the next page and ten more articles will appear, and so on, and so on, for many pages.

It was this information that enabled me to recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown, 1966-78, (I'm 70 now). And it gives me great pleasure to keep learning that more and more people are being helped by this same information.

CHRIST TRIUMPHANT - Thomas Allin
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ChristTriumphant.htm

From Rodger Tutt in Toronto, Canada
"That God may be All in all" 1Cor.15:28

Glostik91 · Post by **Glostik91** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:51 am

The argument about “eternal hell” nearly always ends with the words, “My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars,” and the result is nearly always a stalemate.

What if I claim divine inspiration direct from God?

rodgertutt · Post by **rodgertutt** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:27 pm

You are welcome to claim divine inspiration from God. Thousands of other people do.

RODGER TUTT’S TESTIMONY

I would like to post this message specifically about both the negative and positive sides of my testimony in case it might be a help to other members, or surfers, or lurkers, of this forum who have, or are experiencing what I went through for similar reasons.

I'm 70 years old, and had I known that evidence existed that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible does not teach that anyone will suffer forever I never would have had a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) over my inability to love an endless-hell god.

THE NEGATIVE SIDE OF MY TESTIMONY

From my earliest memories of my childhood I was taught by my parents and Sunday School teachers and pastors that if I didn't believe the Bible is the word of God then God will throw me into hell fire after I died where I would suffer forever. These were the people on whom I relied to tell me the truth, and I was afraid not to believe them.

If I had not been taught that about the Bible I am sure that I would have chosen to live out my life as an agnostic, rather than put my trust in a book that taught that there is a god who is going to sustain people alive in an inescapable state of suffering forever.

I think that probably most of the agnosticim in this world is caused by people choosing to live out their lives as agnostics, rather than put their trust in a book that teaches such a god as the ETers (eternal tomentors) claim to love and worship.

Many agnostics are decent people who try their best to be as good as they can be simply because they want to treat other people with love and respect, the same way that they would like to be treated too. But they would rather live out their life and die in the hope that they will find out that God is not like the eternal tormentors claim He is.

This has become my attitude too. Were it not for the fact that I have discovered evidence that the Bible does not teach an ET god, then I too would rather live out my life as an agnostic and hope for the best after I die, rather than pretend to love and respect an eternal hell god.

When I was seven my stepmother lit a fire in a beaker and said to me, "If you don't open your heart's door to Jesus and invite Him in, God is going to put you into a fire much bigger and hotter than that after you die and He will never ever let you get out of it.”

So in my heart I prayed the way she said that I had to.

Awhile later she said it's obvious that you still are not saved because you are still such a bad boy.

At that point in time I felt totally hopeless, and I was sure that God had given up on me.

My Dad used to beat me with a bamboo cane repeatedly shouting "In Jesus Name, in Jesus Name," until the welts on my legs would bleed. He told me that it was easy to tell at an early age that I was going to go to hell.

Then they both sent me away to a foster home because they could no longer cope with my bad behavior. My real mother had died giving birth to me. My Dad's second wife had died at child birth too but the child did not live either.

So at the age of seven I became convinced that everyone had given up on me, including God.

Later, at the age of 28 (I'm 70 now) I began a twelve year nervous breakdown over my inability to successfully emotionally cope with the idea that God lets any creature suffer forever. I was only able to recover by learning that there are no verses in the Bible that teach endless suffering in hell for anyone. See
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
Bible Threatenings Explained
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThr ... ained.html

THE POSITIVE SIDE OF MY TESTIMONY

Now I’m a Christian Biblical Universal Transformationist.

Before you brush off my assertion by saying “there is no such a thing,” think about the following.

MY TRIBUTE TO RAY PRINZING
Ray Prinzing is my hero and mentor.
His many writings can be Googled up and read online.
Just type in Ray Prinzing.

During my twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) caused by my inability to emotionally cope with the idea that God lets any creature suffer forever in hell, every morning, as I washed my family’s dishes, I would listen to one of Ray Prinzing’s many tapes.

I have listened to 178 of them several times, and 23 of them many times
In addition to these tapes, I always read every issue of his periodical GOSPEL ECHOES which he later renamed LETTERS OF TRUTH and gleaned many pages of his writings into my personal journal.

Many people have a hero, someone in their life that made a contribution to their welfare so significant that it is far above the influence that anyone else has had.

Ray Prinzing is that hero to me.

For several years my 96 year old dad called me from his nursing home each evening. Each time he called I read a portion of my over four thousand page journal to him, and many of these readings are the gleanings that I wrote from Ray Prinzing’s writings and tapes. Many nights my dad fell asleep listening to one of Ray’s tapes.

As I listened to Ray’s tapes during my nervous breakdown (1966-78) I gradually became more and more sure that I was going to recover. The contents of his tapes gave me the courage, in 1978, to take a public stand that I believe that the Bible teaches universal transformation, not endless suffering in hell, or even annihilation. (I’m 70 years old now)

My panic attacks completely stopped.

And now I spend most of my time offering people, in various ways, the information that helped me recover and helps me stayed recovered, and I am pleased to report that I have a lot of evidence that the info I post has helped, and is helping many other people in the same way that it helped me.

Ray Prinzing has now passed on, but his influence is so wide spread that he will not be forgotten on this earth for many, many years, if ever. And that is a very good thing!

J. Preston Eby was a good friend of Ray Prinzing. They frequently quoted each other in their writings. Read what J. Preston Eby wrote about this subject. Copy and paste into Google
WILL JESUS TORTURE BILLIONS FOREVER? or click on
The Law of Circularity: Will Jesus Torture Billions Forever? How Men Are Saved
http://www.godfire.net/eby/circularity.html

The entire series of fifteen chapters by J. Preston Eby on this subject can be accessed at
Savior of the World Series
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savio ... /index.htm

His writing specifically on universal transformation is at
The Restitution of All Things
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savio ... tution.htm
SEE ESPECIALLY THE VERY LAST PARAGRAPH IN THAT ARTICLE

Glostik91 · Post by **Glostik91** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:19 am

rodgertutt wrote:You are welcome to claim divine inspiration from God. Thousands of other people do.

Do you claim to have divine inspiration direct from God?

rodgertutt · Post by **rodgertutt** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:00 am

Glostik91 wrote:
rodgertutt wrote:You are welcome to claim divine inspiration from God. Thousands of other people do.
Do you claim to have divine inspiration direct from God?

What I do claim is that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible is divinely inspired.

THE TRUTH ABOUT “HELL”

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/OriginandHistory.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/how_h ... incent.htm

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savio ... /index.htm

People who want to keep believing in the doctrine of "endless hell" will not read the following articles.
But people who don't want to believe that the Bible teaches "endless hell" will read all of them and will be filled with great joy at finding out the truth!

What Jesus really taught about "hell."
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesus ... nhell.html

What the Bible really teaches about "hell."
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheBibleHell.html
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
http://www.what-the-hell-is-hell.com/
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savio ... d/hell.htm
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Hell_ ... rever.html

Regarding arguments against the Bible teaching universal salvation, see
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThr ... ained.html

Any “hell” that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionion," (Matthew 25:46) which means age-during corrective chastisement.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html

It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
http://www.savior-of-all.com/aionian.html

Or copy and paste into Google

tentmaker books chapter eleven
or
Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”
or
AIÓN – AIÓNIOS

Regarding the most common argument that the same word for "punishment" is also used for "life" see the following:
http://www.savior-of-all.com/aionian.html

All three of these articles should be studied with care, especially the third one.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon1.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon2.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/eon3.html
also see:
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/aion.html
http://concordant.org/version/tranprin.html

GENIUS FORUMS

If you cannot love an eternal torment god (the first 500 yea

If you cannot love an eternal torment god (the first 500 yea

What I wish I had known during my youth - How I recovered

Re: If you cannot love an eternal torment god (the first 500 yea

Re: If you cannot love an eternal torment god (the first 500 yea

Re: If you cannot love an eternal torment god (the first 500 yea

SCRIPTURAL PROOFS THAT THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION

Re: If you cannot love an eternal torment god (the first 500 yea

Re: If you cannot love an eternal torment god (the first 500 yea

Re: If you cannot love an eternal torment god (the first 500 yea

Re: If you cannot love an eternal torment god (the first 500 yea

Re: If you cannot love an eternal torment god (the first 500 yea

The world’s most evil beliefs & the most important issue

A PHONE CONVERSATION WITH A MUSLIM MISSIONARY

CALVINISM VERSUS ARMINIANISM

Re: If you cannot love an eternal torment god (the first 500 yea

Re: If you cannot love an eternal torment god (the first 500 yea

Re: If you cannot love an eternal torment god (the first 500 yea

Re: If you cannot love an eternal torment god (the first 500 yea

Re: If you cannot love an eternal torment god (the first 500 yea

Re: If you cannot love an eternal torment god (the first 500 yea

Re: If you cannot love an eternal torment god (the first 500 yea

Re: If you cannot love an eternal torment god (the first 500 yea

Re: If you cannot love an eternal torment god (the first 500 yea

Re: If you cannot love an eternal torment god (the first 500 yea

Re: If you cannot love an eternal torment god (the first 500 yea