GENIUS FORUMS

Victor wrote:Whether you like it or not, UN recognizes the right of all peoples to political self-determination, even if you personally regard the existence of the peoples as being grounded in a different mythology, the nationalist mythology.

Good question. So, how do you "like it"?

Palestinian Right to Self-Determination
By Lia Syed*
Malaysia Kini
December 15, 2003

On Dec 11, 1948, the United Nations adopted Resolution 194, which read: "That the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the governments or authorities responsible."

Resolution 194 has been reaffirmed more than 25 times and confirmed more than 130 times over the past 55 years. The number of refugees at the time numbered more than 750,000, or about 60 percent of the population of historic Palestine. Only 12 days earlier, in Resolution 181, the United Nations adopted a definition of Israel's borders in the form of a ‘Partition Resolution’ that assigned approximately 53 percent of the land mass of historic Palestine exclusively to the then 5.6 percent of the resident population adhering to the Jewish religion.

At practically the same moment, the world community was declaring that Israel could exist and enjoy recognition under the condition that it comply with international law. In Israel's case, there would be no legalising ‘after the fact’ of acts of conquest or what the Zionists liked to call "recognition of new facts on the ground".

Seven months after adopting Resolutions 181 and 194, on May 11, 1949, the General Assembly adopted Resolution 273. This admitted Israel to a seat in the assembly on condition that it implements Resolution 194 and abides by the boundaries set out in Resolution 181. One has to realise that these boundaries and the development of ‘land distribution’ of what was Palestine under different ‘Peace Plans’ since Resolution 181 until today goes as follows:

· UN Partition Plan to the Palestinians: 47 percent of the 100 percent

· Oslo Agreement to the Palestinians: 22 percent of the 100 percent

· Former Israel Prime Minister Ehud Barak’s offer to the Palestinians: 80 percent of 22 percent

Under Sharon’s ‘Peace Plan’ to the Palestinians in 2000, as well as the ‘Road Map’ of 2002, the Palestinians were offered 42 percent of 80 percent of 22 percent of 100 percent of the land, calculated to be 7.4 percent of the initial 100 percent of land, on condition that:

1. Palestinians stop resistance to the occupation,

2. Refugees give up their right of return to their ancestral homes,

3. Palestinians agree to only elect officials acceptable to Bush and Sharon,

4. Palestinians do not object to the ‘wall’ that Sharon is building,

5. Palestinians agree not to claim Jerusalem as their capital.

According to statistics from the Palestinian National Information Centre of the State Information Service, lands annexed and forcibly seized by the Israeli occupying forces since May 29, 2002 amounts to 165,951 dunums (165,951,000 square metres) of Palestinian land, mostly arable and very fertile, for the sake of constructing the apartheid wall. In addition, 61,857 dunums were bulldozed and 971,346 trees were uprooted in the Gaza Strip and West Bank. From the above data alone can be seen that the struggle for Palestine is not least a struggle for land.

Today, the so-called ‘Geneva Accord’ seems to be an effort by certain parties to support the unacceptable conditions and demands of the stillborn ‘road map’ by reiterating – among other things – the relinquishing of the right of return. The ‘accord’ represents yet one more attempt to finish off the Palestinian struggle for self-determination. Article 17 of the draft Geneva Accord includes a final clause providing for a "UN Security Council-UN General Assembly resolution endorsing the agreement and superceding previous UN resolutions".

This means that Israel will no longer be under the obligation of fulfilling the terms of Resolutions 181, 194 or 273. With this, the sinister character of the real aim of this ‘accord’ is revealed: which is to whitewash Israel's long list of war crimes and crimes against humanity as a brutal occupier in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, as well as excuse and reduce an equally long and sordid record of the US, Canada, Britain, France, and others involved in instigating and supporting these activities.

Dec 11, the 55th anniversary of the UN adoption of Resolution 194, is a day on which all right-thinking people shall declare that another world is possible: Palestine is possible, and the Palestinians can prevail by upholding the right of return as both a collective and individual right. For the Palestinian people, this remains today part and parcel of exercising their right of self-determination. It is something that cannot be hijacked by any other agenda, and it is not for sale.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/is ... 5right.htm

Stawmen abound, huh? Once you realize that you cannot sustain your moronic argument that jews aren't an ethnicity -- you introduce a red herring! Change the subject!

Yes, kiddo, palestinians have a right to political self-determination too (though not a 'right of return'). I support the two-state solution. That in no way negates the fact that jews also have a right to political self-determination, as a people, as recognized by UN ICCPR and ICECSR. Do try to keep to the topic, dear.

Jews aren't an ethnicity, Victor. They are followers of Judaism, by definition. I have no reason to eliminate the religious aspect or reduce it to secondary order for the sake of some ancient Jews who believed in Yahweh knows what. However, if you want to define yourself as an ethnicity, with the same biological heritage as others not Jewish in common, that's your ignorant business.

And, that was no strawman, darlin'. Just addressing a single point among many diversionary others. Glad to see you accept it. Shame Israel doesn't.

Oh, and just as an interesting aside, there's a good chance by Jewish reasoning that I am Jewish, too, since I have thalassemia, though I might indeed be Palestinian:

"About two-thirds of Israeli Arabs and Arabs in the territories and a similar proportion of Israeli Jews are the descendents of at least three common prehistoric ancestors who lived in the Middle East in the Neolithic period, about 8,000 years ago. This is the finding of a new study conducted by an international team of scholars headed by Prof. Ariella Oppenheim, a senior geneticist in the Hebrew University's hematology department and at Hadassah Hospital in Jerusalem. In the study, soon to be published in the scientific journal 'Human Genetics,' the researchers probed the history of Jewish and Arab men by analyzing the genetic changes in the Y chromosome... The study was conducted by doctoral student Almut Nebel, with the participation of Dr. Dvora Filon and Dr. Marina Faerman of the Hebrew University and Dr. Mark Thomas of the University College of London. The results of the study, says Prof. Oppenheim, 'support the historical documentation according to which the Arabs are descendents of an ancient population of the country and that a large proportion of them were Jews who converted to Islam after Islam reached Eretz Israel in the seventh century CE.'... They examined 134 Palestinians from Israel and the Palestinian Authority and 119 Ashkenazi and Sepharadi Jews. Unlike the previous study, they also traced changes in DNA that occur more frequently, at a rate of about once in 1,000 generations. In this way, they discovered that Jews and Arabs have common prehistoric ancestors who lived here until just the last few thousand years.... In view of the small geographical area of Israel and the Palestinian Authority, the researchers were surprised to discover that some Palestinians on the West Bank have a unique genetic trait that is reflected in a relatively high frequency of certain genetic signs. This fact indicates that they are the descendents of people who have lived here for a few hundred years at least. The unique genetic feature of the Palestinians from the West Bank became even more explicit when the researchers studied a genetic defect that may cause a blood disease known as thalassemia. There are many genetic defects that can cause thalassemia, but 50 percent of the mountain dwellers examined carried the identical defect, compared to only 10 percent of Galilee dwellers and 15 percent of Gaza residents. Dr. Filon says that the unique genetic trait is characteristic of a population that has lived in the same place for many generations."

http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts-jews.html

So much for being Turkish or Australian, eh?

Thought you might like to know.

Leyla Shen wrote:
On Dec 11, 1948, the United Nations adopted Resolution 194, which read: "That the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, ...

The Palestinians cant even live in peace with each other. You think they can do so with the Jews?

Victor,

You never answered my post on page 6 which contained this:

Well, it's pretty sad when Israel has to defend its 'right' which is none other than 'might makes right' by pointing out what we did, or the Spanish did, to the indiginous in this continent, to our everlasting shame. And these UN resolutions postdate those things...we've outlawed torture and a lot of other suchlike activities.

Your last few posts have caused me to lose any shred of respect for you as a human being. You are amoral. Jews can return to their ancestral homeland while claiming no religious motivation, while kicking out in full sight of the world hundreds of thousands of residents, and these people have no right of return - and you point to the worst sins of humanity, such as our treatment of the amerindians, and say you should have the same 'right' as we had.

So that's the kind of world you want. And if that is the kind of world you want I oppose you and I certainly repudiate the sort of Jewish identify which seeks that, and I don't mind saying that I am ashamed of my own family, rabid zionists for more than 100 years.

If the Jews genuinely wanted a country of their own, they had the entire age of exploration to get one. Or, they could have taken over a state here, like the mormons did. They could have staked out a territory before many of the western states were ever annexed. You'd think they'd have been right on that, out there at the head of the line of covered wagons, heading west. But that's not what they ever wanted, for some reason.


Daybrown,

You surprise me. You seem to be talking out of two sides of your mouth. You are aware, I think, of the amount of deception that led us into WWII, and you say that Jews and the Jewish media were able to pull off 911, which even I do not think they could do alone, and yet you say that anyone who doubts the holocaust should have their heads examined. But, as I have already said twice, the term 'holocaust denier' doesn't mean much really because it is a large body of different inquiries into what led to WWII and how zionism fits into it. You think the Jews are capable of pulling off 911, and somehow you think that 50 years prior to that they were inactive? You should go to savethemales.ca and read some of this guy's essays on WWII and the zionist complicity. He is Jewish - his parents were from Poland, they fled the Nazis - he is not a holocaust denier - not at all - but he sure does do some interesting historical investigations. Have you read about the history of zionism and the Balfour declaration? Zionism did not start in 1948.

Leyla Shen wrote:Jews aren't an ethnicity, Victor. They are followers of Judaism, by definition.

You are a tad slow on the uptake, huh?

I have no reason to eliminate the religious aspect or reduce it to secondary order for the sake of some ancient Jews who believed in Yahweh knows what. However, if you want to define yourself as an ethnicity, with the same biological heritage as others not Jewish in common, that's your ignorant business.

So the jews throughout the world, who see being a jew as an ethnicity and a religion, are all ignorant. You are the only one who knows what being a jew really means.

Unbelievable. You are so dense, no light of reason can escape your gravitational pull.

So much for being Turkish or Australian, eh?p

Erm... HUH? Are you taking up random babbling as a hobby now? or have you stopped taking your meds?

Iolaus wrote:Victor,

You never answered my post on page 6 which contained this:

You mean your random iditoic rant? Why shoul;d i answer that? Do you want me to flame you into cinders? I had lost any respect for you as a human being when you had recalcitrantly continued to claim that lifeforce undergirds the universe (i tend to be like that, valuing intellectual honesty highly). I saw no reason to respond to you, and i see no reason to respond to you now. Fuck off.

Wow. It was not a rant. And I am now convinced you have nothing of substance to say. Better argue with Leyla, who is not ranting!!!

Nothing to say = guilty as charged. You believe in might makes right, you have stated it about three times on this thread. So that is your position, and that is why the world is turning against Israel. It just pisses me off that my kids might have to die for it.

And by the way, thinking that there is a life/energy force permeating the universe is not dishonest. It might be wrong, but you really should reserve the L word more carefully.

By the way there are many millions who join me in this dishonest belief. There's Ervin Lazslo in his book, Science and the Akashic Field, and there is the prayer I grew up with to the Holy Spirit which says

...Who art everywhere present and fillest all things...giver of life,...

If you want to really talk about Israel, zionism, palestinians, etc., I am game. if you want to just screech, screech to yourself.

Iolaus wrote: You surprise me. You seem to be talking out of two sides of your mouth. You are aware, I think, of the amount of deception that led us into WWII, and you say that Jews and the Jewish media were able to pull off 911, which even I do not think they could do alone, and yet you say that anyone who doubts the holocaust should have their heads examined. But, as I have already said twice, the term 'holocaust denier' doesn't mean much really because it is a large body of different inquiries into what led to WWII and how zionism fits into it. You think the Jews are capable of pulling off 911, and somehow you think that 50 years prior to that they were inactive? You should go to savethemales.ca and read some of this guy's essays on WWII and the zionist complicity. He is Jewish - his parents were from Poland, they fled the Nazis - he is not a holocaust denier - not at all - but he sure does do some interesting historical investigations. Have you read about the history of zionism and the Balfour declaration? Zionism did not start in 1948.

I surprise myself every day. You get used to it. I dunno that I am ever as clear as I hope to be. which is to be expected existing in a projected, and somewhat ambiguous virtual reality. I am basically a Turing machine running on somewhat buggy software, that however, permits what passes for my thinking to run down unusual directions.

The recorded database, ie history, that I have access to is not necessarily what is presented to you, or anyone else. But with regard to 911, Jewish control of the media was necessary, but not sufficient. *CHRISTIAN* cooperation was also required. If we did not have Christians in power, 911 would not have happened.

Not once, in the two millennia since Trajan hauled off the indigeneous management, has the remaining slave class in Palestine been able to establish local autonomy. They were consecutively ruled by the Jews, Romans, Byzantines, Caliphs, Ottomans, & Brits, and like other slave classes on this planet do not know how to rule themselves. We see their streetgangs have at each other when given the opportunity. They have too many alphas, born of too many dimwitted women (who have always been preferred because their machismo convinced them that the womb was only a room in which to raise their seed), who have the alpha instinct to want to dominate, but lack the intelligence to actually do so. As Nietzsche said, they suffer "the rancor of the impotent". The more misogynistic a culture is, the more it fails to adapt to modern realities.

I have read translations of SS documents discussing the problems the concentration guards were having. Since I have a degree in psych, I recognize the symptoms of PTSD. The Halocaust deniers know nothing about this. But I know that the guards were having problems because shooting women and kids is so contrary to human instinct, and the cognitive disonnanace was driving them crazy. The gas chambers solved that problem for them because now the troops didnt havta watch women with babies die.

I grant you that the Jews have spun the shit out of it, but its delusional to think that just because the Jews are liars, that everything they say is a lie. Credibility always depends upon a certain amount of truth. i grant that the numbers are not really all that relevant, whatever the actual count is, its monstrous. And I grant that this has been used to bring the Jews to Palestine. But note- the Jews had been returning even before European antisemitism became a problem. And back then, they began by buying the land, paying the market prices.

Understandably, there were racist Arab efforts to prevent this, just as we saw with Blacks moving into white neighborhoods. Also understandably, the well educated Jews knew how to make more money and manage it so they could afford to buy even more land, which created more animosity. If you look at the history of the Jews in Europe, you see that they always lived under the rule of Christians. Only the smarter & uglier women were able to stay in the Jewish gene pool; any agreeable cute bimbos were taken for the pleasure of the Christian ruling class. There was no way the Jews could prevent it.

So, not only are the Jews back but they are smarter than when they left, and the Palestinians are the same dumb fuck slave class they have always been. The various foreign rulers always murdered any competent leadership that might arise from among the Palestinians. The place was always run with the iron fist.

Now, when the Brits were going to leave, there was the option to negotiate what kind of government would be there and what the borders would be. But in 1948, the Syrians, Jordanians, Palestinians, and Egyptians out numbered the Jews by 20 to 1, and had every expectation that they could butcher them all and solve the problem. So- they chose not to negotiate. Might makes right, always has always will. The Moslems were, as they still are, long on egos and short on cooperation; their machismo drew them to the iconic, monumental targets, while the Jews focused on the strategic choke points.

Nearly half of the Sabra were women, fresh from Nazi Europe, who were not going to go thru that again with the Arabs, and their daughters are still there. Of all the smart women on the planet, it is only the Jewesses who are breeding as fast as the slave classes. Whether we like it or not, they will figure out how to stay there.

vicdan wrote:Regardless of the role of judaism, jews are an ethnicity. The confusion you are seeing is the echoes of the political and religious struggle, but even the religious jews admit that jews are an ethnicity, not just a religion.

They are not just a religion, agreed. But they are certainly not just an ethnicity. The very content of their religion implies ethnicity: a chosen people after all, by GOD, the creator of the whole planet. The defense that one just ends up with an ethnicity estranged from its religious roots would be an easy way out, if there was no state of Israel founded on these very national-religious foundations, and that in the age of modernity.

The 'fundies' are not the religious problem. From my and many other perspectives e.g. Ariel Sharon's commitment to Zionism, his root in militant nationalism was the worst of religions

By that reasoning, any nationalism is a religion -- but this merely obscures the significant differences.

Granted, this is what I implied and I blurred the differences on purpose. We can leave it out of the discussion for simplicity.

Whether you like it or not, UN recognizes the right of all peoples to political self-determination, even if you personally regard the existence of the peoples as being grounded in a different mythology, the nationalist mythology.

There is a good case to be made that the original partition plan of the UN wasn't based on this principle at all but on other motives (perhaps the trauma of the meat grinder called WW2). Perhaps that's why Stalin was in favor and the Brits, who knew the place all too well, weren't. Next thing you want to give all the Kurds their own nation too, part of Turkey or Iraq. Lets send them weapons and support, damn the consequences!

The establishment of Israel as state anywhere close to the current borders relies mostly on religious rhetoric about a supposed Jewish King David, King Salomo and so on.

Erm, no. As i had told you, Zionism has been a predominantly secular nationalist movement all along.

But I was talking about the selection of Palestine itself which was the only location to be acceptable to the hesitating majority of (religious) Jews, if there had to be a location at all. The desire for self-determination doesn't have to equal a militant struggle to get a specific piece of land which already has other disagreeing inhabitants too. Not anymore in the 20th century.

I've no disagreement with that. But no matter if culture, nationalism or religion is used to justify the Zionist idea of the state of Israel, it's all based on a mostly religiously inspired historical context at the bottom.

BS. That jews had lived in Israel two-three millenia ago is an indisputable historical fact. All the archeological inquiries into whether Solomon or David existed, whether there ever was the One Kingdom, etc. -- all of them have nothing to do with the fact that Israel is the ancestral homeland of my people.

No, they didn't live in "Israel". Perhaps I'm too subtle for you: the archaeological facts lead to a Kingdom of Judah, centered around Jerusalem. All ideas about the greater Israel are not yet proven to be any different than several forms of the larger Canaanite culture which the current Lebanese are also related to. All Judean history is contained in a few hundred years before CE and again: mainly in the form of Judah plus a few scattered settlements with hardly evidence of any consistent independent state form, at least none of them confirmed by external sources AFAIK.

I mean: on what else it could be based? What is the meaning or value of the culture, the larger 'Israel', the whole Zionist ideal without the religious justification?

Huh? Are you assuming that there is no reason but religion to believe that jews had lived in israel before the razing of the second temple?

Jews developed there as an ethno-religious culture for sure, like Afro-Americans started in Africa but you don't seem to understand what I'm getting at when I'm stressing Israel, the country/kingdom/state entity as compared to Judah. The Zionists, in their desire to find a "safe haven" picked a spot which was mostly mythical if we follow the UN partition scheme. Looking at the population figures at the time, one could wonder about this 'safe haven' argument too. Did they really expect to find relative peace in that area when already in the first stages of immigration the reception was so bad? As such for 'Israel' or the Zionist desire for a state there, it cannot be else than a strong religious drive lying underneath any nationalist verbose. Or else it's just stupidity, hard to tell the difference at times.

daybrown wrote:just because the Jews are liars, that everything they say is a lie.

Now incredibly fair-minded of you...

Nearly half of the Sabra were women, fresh from Nazi Europe

Sabra are the israeli jews born in Israel. An immigrant cannot be sabra by definition.

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:They are not just a religion, agreed. But they are certainly not just an ethnicity.

Nonetheless, we are an ethnicity, with all the corresponding rights as a people.

There is a good case to be made that the original partition plan of the UN wasn't based on this principle at all but on other motives (perhaps the trauma of the meat grinder called WW2). Perhaps that's why Stalin was in favor and the Brits, who knew the place all too well, weren't.

Stalin supported it because Israel was being founded by Labor Zionists, who were socialists (albeit largely of the anarcho- variety), and Stalin thought that Israel could be added to the Soviet sphere of influence. He got disabused of that notion very soon, but that was the reason for his initial support for Israel.

Next thing you want to give all the Kurds their own nation too, part of Turkey or Iraq.

As a matter of fact, I do. They are the largest people in the world without a country, and they have a right to one. now mind you, the right to political self-determination can be fulfilled by political autonomy rather than statehood, but that';s up to them to decide. I support free Kurdistan.

But I was talking about the selection of Palestine itself which was the only location to be acceptable to the hesitating majority of (religious) Jews, if there had to be a location at all. The desire for self-determination doesn't have to equal a militant struggle to get a specific piece of land which already has other disagreeing inhabitants too. Not anymore in the 20th century.

That was the only option at the time -- and note that most israelis do not support the drive for biblical Greater Israel.

No, they didn't live in "Israel". Perhaps I'm too subtle for you: the archaeological facts lead to a Kingdom of Judah, centered around Jerusalem. All ideas about the greater Israel are not yet proven

Well, good thing nobody sane is driving for Greater Israel then, huh?..

All Judean history is contained in a few hundred years before CE

IIRC the oldest discovered written records of jewish habitation in israel date to about 11th century BCE.

The Zionists, in their desire to find a "safe haven" picked a spot which was mostly mythical if we follow the UN partition scheme.

the UN partition scheme was drawn according to population lines, not biblical lines. i really have no idea WTF you are talking about. Yes, Greater Israel -- Egypt to Euphrates -- is a religious fable; but most zionists weren't driving for Greater Israel. The real Israel, the ancient homeland of my people, is a historical fact.

Looking at the population figures at the time, one could wonder about this 'safe haven' argument too. Did they really expect to find relative peace in that area when already in the first stages of immigration the reception was so bad? As such for 'Israel' or the Zionist desire for a state there, it cannot be else than a strong religious drive lying underneath any nationalist verbose. Or else it's just stupidity, hard to tell the difference at times.

have you noticed that jews in israel have proven themselves quite capable of keeping themselves safe? They repulsed every single attack, and now Israel is the regional superpower. Not that crazy, was it?..

You are just trying to justify a pre-determined conclusion now, dude. The fact is that Zionist had been mostly driven by the secular nationalist sentiment all along -- Israel the land of our fathers, not Israel the land promised to us by the biblical god.

Whatever Mossad's involvement in 911, which we can most reasonably assume only needed the action of the elite and some few selected personnel, there was a good case to be made that Islamic terrorism was being funded by the oil money, and that threatened to destabilize the global economy.

Which it has indeed done, in large part because the military actions taken were so poorly thot out, with no political action thot out at all. Mossad should have realized what a fool Bush was. They should have considered what the cost would do to the American economy, and following that, the potential loss of the economic support the US has provided to Israel. Ultimately the 3 billion/year the US sends over there will be little more than nice lithographs of dead presidents and Ben Franklin.

The Jewish media has supported American Christian Fundamentalism, which while it has been certainly easy to manipulate, given any serious downturn on their middle class lifestyle will result in widespread abandonment, and with that the abandonment of support for Israel.

i agree with Vic, that it is curious that the United Nation's standard of self determination does not apply to the Kurds. I expect that issue will become more critical, and have said on several occasions, have suggested we will see the partition of Turkey like that of Yugoslavia. *Nobody* in the region likes the "Turks".

And while Israel has long been a bastion of Western Culture, Kurdistan is an obvious comer, expanding the base in the very heart of the Islamic world at the same time getting more direct control over more oil. Mossad no doubt that had that in mind when considering a falseflag US event.

Fuck’s sake. Victor’s idea of an independently existing Jewish ethnicity is something on the order of a wet dream.

Both the culture and traditions of a people are firmly grounded in their belief system/s, whether or not (and to whatever degree) these things change over time. If this were not the case, one’s ethnicity would be entirely based on genetics. The fact that you might not believe in God is fucking irrelevant!

To assert that you are an ethnic Jew somehow disconnected from Judaism is deluded, therefore.

My definition of a Jew: Anyone raised by parents (whether religious or not) who consider themselves Jews + anyone who converts to the Jewish religion. There is definately a Jewish racial type, but if a family group has interbreed with other races and no longer consider themselves as being aligned with Jews, then they are not Jewish.

Not that I care. People just like to attach blame to Jews for certain political and technological problems in society, because Jews are more often in the forefront of advancements than others. It's a bit like Australia's "tall poppy" syndrome.

I don't mind people getting stuck into the fundamental Jews who use religion to attempt to keep the Jewish line pure.

Fundies are not that high a percentage of Jews these days, things have changed since "Happy Days" and if it wasn't for the arrogant Arabs, who wish to see Israel destroyed and whose hatred has the affect of frightening Jewish people into support for tradition, there would be even fewer fundies. How much nicer would the Middle East be, if Jews had less animalistic neighbours!

Leyla Shen wrote:If this were not the case, one’s ethnicity would be entirely based on genetics.

Ethnicity is based on culture and parentage. A child of jews is a jew even if he doesn't believe in god.

Answer a simple question to me, dummkopf. An atheist child of jewish parents is of what ethnicity, if not jewish?..

The fact that you might not believe in God is fucking irrelevant!

Yeah. The fact that one can be a jew without believing in judaism is irrelevant to the claim that being a jew is a purely religious and not an ethnic thing.

Are you hearing yourself, dummy?

To assert that you are an ethnic Jew somehow disconnected from Judaism is deluded, therefore.

I see. So the fact that the closest i come to judaism is that my great-grandmother was a religious jew, doesn't matter when considering whether being a jew is purely a function of religion.

You truly take the cake for abject recalcitrant stupidity.

I have given you mountains of evidence -- surveys, definitions, laws, history... and it all goes in one ear and out the other. You wouldn't know truth if it ran up to you and bit you on the leg.

.


-daybrown writes-
...Only the smarter & uglier women were able to stay in the Jewish gene pool; any agreeable cute bimbos were taken for the pleasure of the Christian ruling class. There was no way the Jews could prevent it...

-tomas-
Ah, yes! First comes Monica Lewinsky (couple abortions) and then Chandra Levy (sacrificial death)...



Tomas (the tank)
VietNam veteran - 1971


7


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vicdan wrote:Ethnicity is based on culture and parentage. A child of jews is a jew even if he doesn't believe in god.

actually no, ethnicity is also genetics. And even if it was culture, what is the culture of judaism other than the religion? So if you don't follow the religion, you don't follow the culture either. A child of jews is not a jew if he doesn't believe in god. Judaism is nothing but a religion and always will be. If you actually talked to an orthodox rabbi, he will tell you that judaism is a religion, and that a jew believes in god. An orthodox rabbi will tell you that you are wrong.

Answer a simple question to me, dummkopf. An atheist child of jewish parents is of what ethnicity, if not jewish?..

he's the ethnicity of whatever genetic ethnicity his parents were.... judaism is not an ethnicity, it's a fucking religion. it's not a culture because its culture is nothing but a religion. There's no Jewish culture outside of the religion, why do you deny this? can you tell me the culture of judaism outside of the religion? no you can't because it doesn't exist.

Yeah. The fact that one can be a jew without believing in judaism is irrelevant to the claim that being a jew is a purely religious and not an ethnic thing.

because it is a purely religious thing. There's black, white, chinese, russian, german, jews. These are all different ethnicities and different cultures. Where's the jewish culture in these people? Oh yeah i forgot, it's a fucking religion.

I see. So the fact that the closest i come to judaism is that my great-grandmother was a religious jew, doesn't matter when considering whether being a jew is purely a function of religion.

yes it is purely a fucking religious function, why do you have such a hard time absorbing that??

I have given you mountains of evidence -- surveys, definitions, laws, history... and it all goes in one ear and out the other. You wouldn't know truth if it ran up to you and bit you on the leg.

what evidence? surveys aren't evidence. If a bunch of deluded "jews" think they can be 'atheist jews' that's not evidence. Laws? history? let's see.

do you know about the Khazars? They were a group of Asian and Turkush people, who settled in eastern europe a long ass time ago. They were pagan phallic worshippers. deciding that paganism was primitive, they decided to convert to a religion, they found some rabbis who suggested them judaism. BAM the whole nation became jews. but, they weren't the original tribe of israel jews, not the sons of jacob no. They were an entirely unrelated group, who simply converted. And now Askhkenazi jews are descendants of that group, not the original tribes of israel. Soooo, where does jewish ethnicity fit into this picture? it doesn't. why? because it's not even the sons of jacob, or the original tribes of israel. Despite this, judaism is still nothing but a religion.

What's funny is that I've argued with other jews, and they don't consider judaism a race or an ethnicity. But they are still stupid enough like vic to consider it a culture and not a religion.

As for holocaust denial, who the fuck is a stupid jackass like vic to try and slander me with that bullshit like ADL cocksuckers? Did I even say it? And if I did, the whole term 'holocaust denial' is one big fucking SCARECROW. Look how cleverly and effectively it produces irrational emotions and stirring up of hate and vengeance. 'holocaust' 'DENIER' OH MY GOD A DENIER OH NO KILL HIM!!!! HOLOCAUST IS THE ONLY GENOCIDE IN THE WORLD NO OTHER GROUP HAS BEEN DESTROYED AHHHHH ARREST HIM ARREST HIM!!!

what jackasses like ADL vic label 'deniers' are nothing but INVESTIGATORS. People who see the many problems with the original story, and who get kicked under the carpet when trying to investigate it.

perhaps ADL vic should do more research, but of course that's not going to happen:

http://www.onethirdoftheholocaust.com/

http://www.google.com/search?q=holohoax ... lz=1I7GFRC


as to the Protocols, let's see what Jew Henry Makow has to say about it:

http://www.savethemales.ca/000298.html

what Jew Christopher Jon Bjerknes has to say about Zionism http://www.savethemales.ca/002089.html


Timeline of the Rothschilds: http://www.iamthewitness.com/DarylBradf ... schild.htm

Faust13 wrote:There's no Jewish culture outside of the religion, why do you deny this?

Yeah, because we all know Jews never wrote anything other than religious texts, and never did anything other than worship their god all day.

LOL.

Faust13 wrote:because it is a purely religious thing.

Another ignorant moron joins the fray... jews match all the criteria of an ethnicity, moron.

Tell me, moron: Which ethnicity was Sholom Aleichem, the famous jewish writer of the late 19th century?

do you know about the Khazars? They were a group of Asian and Turkush people, who settled in eastern europe a long ass time ago. They were pagan phallic worshippers. deciding that paganism was primitive, they decided to convert to a religion, they found some rabbis who suggested them judaism. BAM the whole nation became jews. but, they weren't the original tribe of israel jews, not the sons of jacob no. They were an entirely unrelated group, who simply converted. And now Askhkenazi jews are descendants of that group, not the original tribes of israel.

Ding ding ding!

Wrong, moron. Genetic studies have confirmed that ashkenazim are primarily descended from the semitic middle-east -- that only around 13% of ashkenazi genome can be attributes to khazars. You know, genetics, asshole.

what jackasses like ADL vic label 'deniers' are nothing but INVESTIGATORS. People who see the many problems with the original story, and who get kicked under the carpet when trying to investigate it.

hahaha. So you are a Holocvaust denier... excuse me, 'investigator'... in addition to believing in the authenticity of the Protocols.

Protocols are fake. it's even known where they were plagiarized from, entire passages lifted verbatim, idiot:

Elements of the text in the Protocols have been conclusively established as plagiarizations from the 1864 book, Dialogue aux enfers entre Machiavel et Montesquieu (Dialogue in Hell Between Machiavelli and Montesquieu), written by the French satirist Maurice Joly. Joly's work attacks the political ambitions of Napoleon III using Machiavelli as a diabolical plotter in Hell as a stand-in for Napoleon's views. Joly himself appears to have borrowed material from a popular novel by Eugène Sue, The Mysteries of the People, in which the plotters were Jesuits.

Next thing you know, you will affirm The Blood Libel too!

James wrote:People just like to attach blame to Jews for certain political and technological problems in society, because Jews are more often in the forefront of advancements than others. It's a bit like Australia's "tall poppy" syndrome.

It’s not at all like tall poppy syndrome. I don’t have an issue at all with any advances any individual makes for society, however he chooses to define himself. I don’t, however, consider the illegal occupation of Palestinian lands as an advancement and I don’t see the whole Israel/Palestine situation as being born from anything even remotely intelligent, frankly.

Blockhead: Ethnicity is based on culture and parentage. A child of jews is a jew even if he doesn't believe in god.

L: Both the culture and traditions of a people are firmly grounded in their belief system/s, whether or not (and to whatever degree) these things change over time. If this were not the case, one’s ethnicity would be entirely based on genetics. The fact that you might not believe in God is fucking irrelevant!

Dear blockhead: what problem did you have refuting my above statement that caused you to merely restate (albeit in slightly different terms) and repeat the last part of it?

vicdan wrote:Next thing you know, you will affirm The Blood Libel too!

The Catholic church even made a saint out of the blood libel mythology, something I was unaware of until recently.