Fundamental Assumptions

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Jamesh
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Re: Fundamental Assumptions

Post by Jamesh »

Kevin wrote:For example, if one finds life either boring or exciting then one is projecting something onto reality that isn't really there. That is insanity.
To identify that A is not B, requires the separate earlier identification of one of the other, before A can be determined that it is not B.

Identification must commence when a foetus has its first thought and that thought must be "awareness of self". Identification still occurs via dualistic events, but the first thought is the first mental identification that there is an A, but at this point the brain cannot identify that there is Not A. At this point A is all there is. This thought is placed in memory, and the body will now be able to send messages that utilise this memory-of-self-awareness to create new thoughts. The developing brain of the foetus can now connect with physical experiences and it can have very limited valuation thoughts, such as "self senses wrong". These thoughts together with the experiences that ensue, become new more complex memories that go on allow even more complex levels of identification to form.

This initial "awareness of self" thought becomes the starting point for the ego, as all subsequent identifications by differentiation, are formed by comparing A with what is not A. Thus all identification becomes an ego valuation, and henceforth we value everything we identify either positively or negatively in relation to the self as the basis of identification, as the starting point of identification.
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Re: Fundamental Assumptions

Post by Kevin Solway »

Jason wrote:anything your propose to overcome it or prove your sanity may itself be insanity.
There's no way that an individual can verify for certain that he is himself sane, yet when a sane person verifies his own sanity, he is correct in his assessment.
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Re: Fundamental Assumptions

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Kevin Solway wrote:
Jason wrote:anything your propose to overcome it or prove your sanity may itself be insanity.
There's no way that an individual can verify for certain that he is himself sane, yet when a sane person verifies his own sanity, he is correct in his assessment.
And....when an insane person verifies he is sane, he is incorrect in his assessment. I still see no ground being made here. You may as well flip a coin, heads you're sane, tales you're not. Heads you continue on with your philosophy and claims of certain absolute truth, tails you don't.

Anyway, it seems to me that if the individual believed your first statement above, and he were honest, he would never claim that he was certainly sane, no matter the outcome of any sanity assessment he made. That being the case he would also not claim certain absolute truths.
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Re: Fundamental Assumptions

Post by Kevin Solway »

Jason wrote:You may as well flip a coin, heads you're sane, tales you're not.

Not at all. You see, all sane people rightly think they are sane. But if all they did was flip a coin, then 50% of all sane people would think they were insane, and wouldn't bother to do anything with their wisdom. That would be a great loss.
That being the case he would also not claim certain absolute truths.
If someone asked you if you are having experiences right now, what would you say? Would you say "Maybe I'm having experiences right now?". Or would you say "I'm definitely having experiences right now."?

You would be justified to say and think the latter, would you not? Well it's the same for the sage. There are things he knows, and he must speak what he knows.
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Re: Fundamental Assumptions

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Kevin Solway wrote:
Jason wrote:You may as well flip a coin, heads you're sane, tales you're not.

Not at all. You see, all sane people rightly think they are sane. But if all they did was flip a coin, then 50% of all sane people would think they were insane, and wouldn't bother to do anything with their wisdom. That would be a great loss.
Arrrgggg! Kevin you're driving me nuts here. My reference to flipping a coin was just an analogy of the situation. Anyway, I asked this before and you didn't answer: are you Kevin Solway yourself certain of your own sanity?
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Re: Fundamental Assumptions

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Jason wrote:are you Kevin Solway yourself certain of your own sanity?
I'm as certain of my sanity as I am that I am having experiences right now.
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Re: Fundamental Assumptions

Post by Jason »

Kevin Solway wrote:
Jason wrote:are you Kevin Solway yourself certain of your own sanity?
I'm as certain of my sanity as I am that I am having experiences right now.
Yet just a few hours ago you wrote:
Kevin Solway wrote:There's no way that an individual can verify for certain that he is himself sane
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Re: Fundamental Assumptions

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Jason wrote:
Kevin Solway wrote:
Jason wrote:are you Kevin Solway yourself certain of your own sanity?
I'm as certain of my sanity as I am that I am having experiences right now.
Yet just a few hours ago you wrote:
Kevin Solway wrote:There's no way that an individual can verify for certain that he is himself sane
Yes, that's right. I can't be absolutely certain, but I can be pretty damn certain.

It might seem obvious that I'm having experiences right now, but if my experiences are of the henid variety, and are foggy and unformed, then I would not really be having experiences at all.

Likewise, I might be having a mixture of properly conscious experiences but intermingled with henids. So I might experience a moment of conscious clarity or sanity, and then it disappears the very moment I try to do anything with it. That can mess up your thinking.
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Re: Fundamental Assumptions

Post by Sapius »

James,
To identify that A is not B, requires the separate earlier identification of one of the other, before A can be determined that it is not B.
I’d like to suggest a different scenario, keeping in mind what your thought processes are capable of.
Identification must commence when a fetus has its first thought and that thought must be "awareness of self". Identification still occurs via dualistic events, but the first thought is the first mental identification that there is an A, but at this point the brain cannot identify that there is Not A.
I think it can, in a sense. It would be no more than a “feeling” sensed, rather than a thought, felt through its external “boundary” that senses the environment, which is not it. Now try extending this further down to a sperm, which has to sense such self-boundaries to operate, but is not any kind of a “thought”. It is an in-built auto-calculation at its own level. One could even take this down to the quantum level. Although it might not be that strong a distinction, but must be there at a very nominal level, which increases in “things” that are more complex, jumping on a different level when “life” takes a hold.

A “particle” would necessarily have to have a sense of distinction to operate, lets say what probably absolutely every-thing comprises of, and with “life” this culminates into a different level of sense of self, further increasing from a single cellular animal to animals like us.
At this point A is all there is.
In my opinion, there is no point when A is all there is. Duality is sensed, say like that turtle thing, all the way down.
This thought is placed in memory, and the body will now be able to send messages that utilise this memory-of-self-awareness to create new thoughts. The developing brain of the foetus can now connect with physical experiences and it can have very limited valuation thoughts, such as "self senses wrong". These thoughts together with the experiences that ensue, become new more complex memories that go on allow even more complex levels of identification to form.
Very true, but this is after certain level of complexity takes hold on the level of existence. As for memory, there has to be some kind of memory system even in a sperm, be it minimal in complexity, otherwise it couldn’t handle its environment. And a sense-of-self, minus the philosophical implication, is necessary for a sperm to even move around.
This initial "awareness of self" thought becomes the starting point for the ego, as all subsequent identifications by differentiation, are formed by comparing A with what is not A.
This is sentient-comparison, but a particle may be able to sense that just by sensing the environment, through some inbuilt “memory” system of 0.00000000001 memory card, at a quantum level, which we are now exploiting as in quantum computers. The point of ego, the REAL self that cannot be eradicated however one tries, reaches far deeper than what we define it as, which I would philosophically define as false-ego; identifying ones self in and of pride, that I am ME, all knowing, and in total control of my self, which is actually a dug in the system, but with patch available, through reasoning.
Thus all identification becomes an ego valuation, and henceforth we value everything we identify either positively or negatively in relation to the self as the basis of identification, as the starting point of identification.
I think the ever-existent ego of a thing, however of a minimal-awareness that that may be, evaluates all else and hence is able to operate on it own dimensional level. Its duality all the way down, James.

What do you think?

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A note on sanity/insanity; irrelevant of how certain we are that there is no such thing as ultimate objective reality, we never come to understand that comparative reality, in and of comparative subjectivity, based on logical reasoning, is all that there is. So how invalid or mere horseshit is “subjectivity”? Compared subjectivities result in “objective” values, at any point of time, which may change with further experience and knowledge. Objectivity keeps shifting with compared subjectivities in my opinion.

To know what sanity is, all one has at hand is comparison, and by virtue of that a conclusion should be valid, in and of this purely dualistic existence, otherwise we might as well drop thinking, which incidentally we can’t. No one from “beyond” duality could ever confirm/deny, even this very statement, so sue me! Non-duality is a nice thought that may open up a persons mind to different facts of duality, but non-duality remains just that; a tool in our toolbox, which requires duality however.

(This is for the faint hearted, not the fearlessly brave)
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Re: Fundamental Assumptions

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Sapius,
I think it can, in a sense. It would be no more than a “feeling” sensed, rather than a thought, felt through its external “boundary” that senses the environment….

…a single cellular animal to animals like us.

…is necessary for a sperm to even move around.

In my opinion, there is no point when A is all there is. Duality is sensed, say like that turtle thing, all the way down.
Agreed.
This is sentient-comparison, but a particle may be able to sense that just by sensing the environment, through some inbuilt “memory” system of 0.00000000001 memory card, at a quantum level, which we are now exploiting as in quantum computers.
I sort of accept this. For causality to work, something must "sense" what it is not. Everything senses its boundaries….

or does it?

In every instant, depending on how one tries to define a things properties, a things boundaries range from absolute to nul. The path of least resistance is where one side of the causal duality, can manifest to the greatest possible degree. Perhaps the sole logic in the universe is just the path of least resistance. That a thing/force will take the causal path of least resistance is an absolute truth. ? The "path of least resistance that occurs" is essentially the path of no resistance, it becomes a determined path, as if something is caused to take that path, then the resistance can no longer apply. A boundary is either a boundary or it is not any form of boundary at all [WRONG -see below] - however this statement only applies to things that are truly opposite, of which there are only two. Totalised things, particles or whatever, do not have any true opposites, as they all have at least some attributes in common. An apple and that same apple converted to radiation are not absolute opposites.

The phrase I used above "sense what it is not" now seems a bit false. It is more that a fundamental cause is prevented from manifesting itself because it is bounded. No, no, this is still not right. It must still know of the existence of the opposite.

Ok, what this dilemma now suggests is that what I've said elsewhere fairly recently is correct. I've said two things:

a) that the two forces must be able to converge, meaning my statement above that boundaries are absolute is false - nothing could converge with an absolute boundary.
The absolute boundary between the two forces still exists, but only exists non-spatially - convergence is a concept that can only be applicable within the spatial domain.

b) the two forces cause each other, and for this reason they do not "know" the existence of the other. +A causes more of -A and then this "greater -A" causes more of +A, ad infinitum. So what is occurring here is that the fundamental forces inherently know only themselves, not the other. It is their absolutely singular causal nature, the fact that what they are is "expansion" or "contraction" and no other property, means that knowing themselves is just being as they are. The trick is that they can only be what they are when caused to "be more", by their opposite.

"Knowing" also requires time, it is something that occurs only over time, however, absoluteness cannot require time to be an already existent causal factor. Time must be subsequently caused.

If the two forces are outside of time, this means they are permanently instantaneous. What this then means is that they are continuously causing the entirety of the other. It then becomes a question of what is the entirety of the other - they are just permanently "being". In "being" they become existence.

They cause the existence of existence by being opposite to each other. The effect of the existence of A and Not-A is the set of "A and Not A", as this set becomes B. B is more than either A or Not-A, in the same way that Space is more than either the expansionary force and the contracting force. The set or total becomes the 3rd causal leg of the trinity. In being more than what originally caused it, it becomes a reverse cause. The reverse cause of space, is that it causes fluctuations in the degree of beingness that the forces can manifest. As the forces manifest some of the force flows not into causing just more of the existence of the other, but into the already existing unity of expansion and contraction that is space. The result being that this then fucks up the perfect logical equalisation of the non-spatial domain by the mere fact it is additive.

As we are talking about a cause acting from the non-spatial domain into the spatial domain, the effect is that the shape of space will be caused to alter. This is the point where it becomes quite logical to refer to the nature of the fundamental forces as being "expansion and contraction". They cause spatial pressure and gravity as attributes of space itself. Their action causes space to be in a continuos state of geometrical-causal change, which evolves into things via the turtles within turtles scenario.

Memory is a is sequential causal flow that has the ability that resets itself to its prior state, to some degree, or to have no sections added if the right triggers are released. Our ability to create new memories is better when our ego is in a positive frameset for instance. Most people have trouble groking truths they think are negative.

The key is the sequential flow within a structure, that is what allows for memory. That’s the sort of memory seen in DNA or a computer. Atoms are no different, nor could sub-atomic matter be any different. What holds things together is the ability to continually reset sequences to what they were or almost were. That's all memory is.

I'm saying this as I don’t want others to infer from what you said above as possibly being some sort of cosmic consciousness - it is all just about degrees of fundamental manifestation and how this manifests as a flow of change through the existing patterns of things.
The point of ego, the REAL self that cannot be eradicated however one tries…. through reasoning.
Agreed
I think the ever-existent ego of a thing, however of a minimal-awareness that that may be, evaluates all else and hence is able to operate on it own dimensional level. Its duality all the way down, James.
But for what you say here then a duality must assume the additional existence of a non-duality. It must be a non-duality that "evaluates all else". So you can't have a duality without that duality causing a non-duality. In the context of everything, and noting that everything is interconnected, this is the duality of the fundamental forces causing the non-duality of the totality of all there is.

That everything is interconnected prevents things from being inherent non-dualities, as does that they are caused by causes that are continuously manifesting in opposite ways. Things are non-dualities to the degree an observer can recognise synergistic causal patterns bound within differently structured synergistic causal patterns. Without the observer, these synergistic patterns are just boundaries that repel to some degree other synergistic patterns - there is no non-duality, except at the level of the whole.

The QRS see that their self's are not inherent and rightfully recognise they are just a pattern that is a part of a whole, and not intrinsically separate from that whole. That concept however is just a memory, seeing as consciousness is just observation, the part of themselves that observes, that part of one's self, is a non-duality whenever it manifests, but it can only manifest in dualistic concert with that which is not-consciousness, which is everything else.

In reference to A=A and identification, I admit to not understanding its significance. A lot of what Steven's saying above is stuff I've said before. I have not yet deconstructed it, and rebuilt it in a manner that gives it any significant meaning to me. I sometimes use A=A in posts, but I always remain uncertain I'm using it as it should be. I get the shits with it because it seems like the simplest thing ever to understand :)

I hope the QRS are not just using it as a koan.
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Re: Fundamental Assumptions

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There is a huge thread on A=A at the old Common Ascent site, though I doubt anyone could stand reading it all.

http://forum.commonascent.org/showthrea ... 25&page=18

I was Tall King Head there, the last post I made on the topic was.
If everything has the same property (e.g. of “appearing to exist”), then there can be no properties left over for there to be different properties. (If you see that properties don’t “double up”, then this idea is fairly self-evident.)

Essentially my confusion surrounding A=A in the end comes down to the above.

A=A is therefore actually logically meaningless, and in the past I have been right to reject it as same (not that I did in a couple of my latter posts on this thread). Back to square 1. Fuck A=A, I'll just go back to another meaningless statement, WYSIWYG, which just means what you observe is ALL that exists for you.
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Re: Fundamental Assumptions

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I sort of accept this. For causality to work, something must "sense" what it is not. Everything senses its boundaries….

or does it?
James, honestly, what follows your “or does it?”, is over all way too complicated for me, although I can understand some parts. I think it should make perfect sense to you because you see your own big picture. Let me talk about the later half, in which you may find connections to the former half.
I'm saying this as I don’t want others to infer from what you said above as possibly being some sort of cosmic consciousness.
Yes, there isn’t ONE sentient cosmic consciousness or any cumulatively ONE awareness as such.
S: I think the ever-existent ego of a thing, however of a minimal-awareness that that may be, evaluates all else and hence is able to operate on it own dimensional level. Its duality all the way down, James.

J: But for what you say here then a duality must assume the additional existence of a non-duality. It must be a non-duality that "evaluates all else". So you can't have a duality without that duality causing a non-duality. In the context of everything, and noting that everything is interconnected, this is the duality of the fundamental forces causing the non-duality of the totality of all there is.

… - there is no non-duality, except at the level of the whole.
You see, how can one logically call that which is infinitely only patterns (sensed boundaries in and of expanding and contracting forces) all the way, as a WHOLE? The moment you even imagine it as a “whole”, you have created an imaginary boundary to IT, and the “whole” of existence cannot be an IT in any sense at all. Whole does not apply to begin with, so what’s non-dual at the level of “whole”?
The QRS see that their self's are not inherent and rightfully recognize they are just a pattern that is a part of a whole, and not intrinsically separate from that whole.
We are not separate from any other parts, but “parts” is all there is. (Turtles all the way, or say parts or patterns ALL the way). There isn’t a whole as such. Ask any one of them if they believe Totality to be a “whole” in the sense I think you assume; I don't think they do. In my opinion it is All the incalculably possible finitely infinite parts that comprise the thought of “Totality”; it is not literally or mathematically a “whole”.
That concept however is just a memory, seeing as consciousness is just observation, the part of themselves that observes, that part of one's self, is a non-duality whenever it manifests, but it can only manifest in dualistic concert with that which is not-consciousness, which is everything else.
Consciousness and not-consciousness is but a matter of degree as we see it (all being patters at its core), and what necessarily is, is awareness all the way, and consciousness is but a much more complex level of awareness. I can even call the boundary-sensed-self of a particle to be consciousness, but since it is generally accepted as sentient awareness, so I wouldn’t call it so.

Regarding the “part” of one’s self that observes; that "part" IS consciousness itself and IS the Self itself. It isn't a "part". Isn’t it absurd when Sapius says MY consciousness? Who the hell is Sapius in this context to say MY consciousness? Isn’t it a particular consciousness that identifies its individuality by defining it Sapius? The problem is we generally assume our body to be “me” rather than the mind, out of grammatical habit I guess. I could point at any thing and say that’s mine, but when I say my mind, it is essentially the mind itself saying my mind. The mind and “I” is one and the same thing, but we think of them as different, but I me and mine, all belong to the mind and is the mind. So it is wrong to assume the "observance" as a "part". Or did I not understand what you meant by 'part'?
In reference to A=A and identification, I admit to not understanding its significance.
But you already do. Did we not discuss that any thing must necessarily sense a “self”, and that its boundary makes it sense a self because it differentiates its self from the environment? So, in other words it is aware, or say conscious. Now that awareness required a differentiation to occur, hence differentiation of at lease two things is necessary for awareness to be. Now say if the particle is aware that self is self, in other words A=A, the question is how did it arrive at self=self? It was THROUGH the differentiation it felt, the environment, which is not it. If that differentiation would not be, a sense of self can’t arise. Hence A=A involves the whole process, without which, awareness, consciousness, isn’t possible.

One cannot arrive at an identity if some differentiation is not there, so A=A is not merely the law of identity, but an entire process that consciousness is based on. No differentiation - no identity - no consciousness to speak of. End of story! We all go home.

There is a huge thread on A=A at the old Common Ascent site, though I doubt anyone could stand reading it all.
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Re: Fundamental Assumptions

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Sapius wrote:You see, how can one logically call that which is infinitely only patterns (sensed boundaries in and of expanding and contracting forces) all the way, as a WHOLE? The moment you even imagine it as a “whole”, you have created an imaginary boundary to IT, and the “whole” of existence cannot be an IT in any sense at all. Whole does not apply to begin with, so what’s non-dual at the level of “whole”?
Yes,thats right.Laird is doing the same thing in the other thread.

Once you name utterly everything as a 'whole' it ceases to be utterly everything.One has given it a finite quality and is now left with the problem of naming an 'other'.
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Re: Fundamental Assumptions

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Ataraxia wrote:Once you name utterly everything as a 'whole' it ceases to be utterly everything.
Mere words do not have such power.

If I name something "infinite" (or "not finite") my naming doesn't automatically make it finite. A mere word does not in any way impact on the reality of which it speaks, nor necessarily on how we think of that reality.
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Re: Fundamental Assumptions

Post by Ataraxia »

Kevin Solway wrote:
Ataraxia wrote:Once you name utterly everything as a 'whole' it ceases to be utterly everything.
Mere words do not have such power.

If I name something "infinite" (or "not finite") my naming doesn't automatically make it finite.
Well I don't see 'whole' and 'infinite' as synonyms-I said whole.Infinite is without boundry,whole is with boundry.As Sapius said.

A mere word does not in any way impact on the reality of which it speaks, nor necessarily on how we think of that reality.
Yes,fair enough.
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Re: Fundamental Assumptions

Post by Kevin Solway »

Ataraxia wrote:Infinite is without boundry, whole is with boundary.
It's possible to use words in different ways in different contexts.

I'm not saying that it's wrong to think of a whole as having a boundary in certain contexts, but it is interesting that if we do so, then it follows that a whole is only a part (of something bigger).

If the word "Whole" or "the One" or "the All" or "Totality" was used in a spiritual context, I would expect it to be Infinite rather than finite.
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Re: Fundamental Assumptions

Post by Ataraxia »

Kevin Solway wrote:
I'm not saying that it's wrong to think of a whole as having a boundary in certain contexts, but it is interesting that if we do so, then it follows that a whole is only a part (of something bigger).
Yes,thats the point I was trying to make,rather clumsily.
If the word "Whole" or "the One" or "the All" or "Totality" was used in a spiritual context, I would expect it to be Infinite rather than finite.
It took me a while to understand how you guys use these terms.I do now.

I have no quibble with what you are saying.
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Re: Fundamental Assumptions

Post by Sapius »

Ataraxia wrote:
Sapius wrote:You see, how can one logically call that which is infinitely only patterns (sensed boundaries in and of expanding and contracting forces) all the way, as a WHOLE? The moment you even imagine it as a “whole”, you have created an imaginary boundary to IT, and the “whole” of existence cannot be an IT in any sense at all. Whole does not apply to begin with, so what’s non-dual at the level of “whole”?
Yes,thats right.Laird is doing the same thing in the other thread.

Once you name utterly everything as a 'whole' it ceases to be utterly everything.One has given it a finite quality and is now left with the problem of naming an 'other'.
That’s not essentially the point, and yes, as it is, it applies to Laird’s view too.

One is free to name or define any thing as one chooses to, and I don’t mind that at all, but what follows is what I’m trying to point at, which points back at the logical inconsistency of naming that which is supposed to be infinite, because what follows is the concept of no-duality, which points to “something” seen as a WHOLE, a unity, “The One”, “God”, “Totality”. Which is essentially a delusion created by ‘All that there is’, which is an infinite duality however, at its core – literally.

Look into that ‘two worries’ thread for further queries on non-duality.
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Re: Fundamental Assumptions

Post by Jason »

Kevin,
Jason: are you Kevin Solway yourself certain of your own sanity?

Kevin: I'm as certain of my sanity as I am that I am having experiences right now.

Jason: Yet just a few hours ago you wrote: "There's no way that an individual can verify for certain that he is himself sane"

Kevin: Yes, that's right. I can't be absolutely certain, but I can be pretty damn certain.

It might seem obvious that I'm having experiences right now, but if my experiences are of the henid variety, and are foggy and unformed, then I would not really be having experiences at all.

Likewise, I might be having a mixture of properly conscious experiences but intermingled with henids. So I might experience a moment of conscious clarity or sanity, and then it disappears the very moment I try to do anything with it. That can mess up your thinking.
And the validity of your philosophical conclusions rests on this. "I can't be absolutely certain, but I can be pretty damn certain" doesn't sound like a solid enough foundation on which to base absolute truths to me. Even the smallest hint of uncertainty anywhere in the supporting chain undermines claims to absolute truth. I'd think it dishonest to claim absolute truths from such a position.

I'm actually quite surprised at what you've said above, I think it might be new territory, it looks like you've made a significant detour from the conventional QSR-philosophy. "Pretty damn certain" just doesn't cut it when it comes to these matters, you've exposed a fatal flaw in your philosophy. What do you think? I wonder what Dan and David make of this.
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Re: Fundamental Assumptions

Post by David Quinn »

Yeah, I'm not sure what Kevin was getting at there, but as with all things it all comes down to definitions. If "sanity" is defined as opening oneself up to the non-duality of Reality and thinking logically in a flawless manner, then the person who does this can affirm that he is indeed sane. But again, such a person will no longer be caring about those kinds of issues.

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Re: Fundamental Assumptions

Post by Kevin Solway »

Jason wrote:
Likewise, I might be having a mixture of properly conscious experiences but intermingled with henids. So I might experience a moment of conscious clarity or sanity, and then it disappears the very moment I try to do anything with it. That can mess up your thinking.
. . . that doesn't sound like a solid enough foundation

Even the smallest hint of uncertainty anywhere in the supporting chain undermines claims to absolute truth.
Let me put it another way.

If one is conscious of having experiences then it means that memory is working correctly - because if it wasn't working correctly then one wouldn't be conscious of anything. Nothing could be distinguished from anything else, and the self could not be distinguished from not-self, etc.

So "having experiences" is something a conscious person can be 100% certain of, and there is no possibility of doubt.

This same reasoning can be applied to any other knowledge that you are conscious of, such as 1+1=2, A=A, and so on.

However, at any moment it is possible for consciousness to be destroyed - even if it is just for a moment, and then may be restored a moment later.

So, let's say a conscious person is certain that A=A and decides to share it with the world. So far so good. Unfortunately, because of a temporary glitch in his brain, what he says to the world is that A is not A - and he doesn't even know he's done this because he has no memory of the unconscious moment, even though he is again fully conscious that A=A.

So, in short, so long as one is conscious one is fully justified in being absolutely certain. But one is never justified in thinking that one's consciousness will be constant over time. For this reason, it is wise to take full advantage of it while you've got it.
bert
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Re: Fundamental Assumptions

Post by bert »

our cognitive process that makes us understand - indeed all art and science - is fundamentally an act of narrationing and combining and forming a synthesis of everything: identity by identifying.
bert
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Re: Fundamental Assumptions

Post by bert »

what we accept or invite of our thought must first of all disclose itself as a memory-metaphor. the forms and figures of our less measured expressions become, when never-ceasing, the personification of our abstracts
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Jamesh
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Re: Fundamental Assumptions

Post by Jamesh »

Sapius:
I think the ever-existent ego of a thing, however of a minimal-awareness that that may be, evaluates all else and hence is able to operate on it own dimensional level. Its duality all the way down, James.

James:
But for what you say here then a duality must assume the additional existence of a non-duality. It must be a non-duality that "evaluates all else". So you can't have a duality without that duality causing a non-duality. In the context of everything, and noting that everything is interconnected, this is the duality of the fundamental forces causing the non-duality of the totality of all there is.
--------------------------
James:
… - there is no non-duality, except at the level of the whole.

Sapius: You see, how can one logically call that which is infinitely only patterns (sensed boundaries in and of expanding and contracting forces) all the way, as a WHOLE? The moment you even imagine it as a “whole”, you have created an imaginary boundary to IT, and the “whole” of existence cannot be an IT in any sense at all. Whole does not apply to begin with, so what’s non-dual at the level of “whole”?
James:
The QRS see that their self's are not inherent and rightfully recognize they are just a pattern that is a part of a whole, and not intrinsically separate from that whole.
Sapius:
We are not separate from any other parts, but “parts” is all there is. (Turtles all the way, or say parts or patterns ALL the way). There isn’t a whole as such. Ask any one of them if they believe Totality to be a “whole” in the sense I think you assume; I don't think they do. In my opinion it is All the incalculably possible finitely infinite parts that comprise the thought of “Totality”; it is not literally or mathematically a “whole”.
Sorry for taking so long to respond. I can only do so when I'm in the right frame of mind. If you've lost interest since, no problems.

I see your point and it is valid.

Still, my nature is that of an observer, and as I can see a type of pseudo wholeness in things, I think it is still OK to think of it as the same kind of pseudo whole. Just a "whole" by definition "all that is, infinity itself, the Set of all sets" rather than being a physical whole of incalculably possible finitely infinite parts.

I've also previously pondered about the illogicalness of "totalising infinity". It doesn't make sense to do so, however it is not so much that the phrase "the totality" does not apply, but that it only applies when taken as a logical concept at its face value. At face value it is an undeniable truth that there must be "all that is". Only when one questions the meaning of "all" as it relates to the addition of individual things does the concept become less applicable. There is still "the whole of that which is bound by pre-existing causes".

I actually believe it is finiteness that creates infiniteness, not the other way around, and to be honest this accords with the point you are making. Things arise from boundaries and only finite things can have the affect of a boundary.

By what logic can we apply the henid concept of absolute infinity, without also applying its dualistic opposite [read counter-cause], which would be absolute finiteness? We can't. The two forces individually may be considered as being absolutely finite, whereas everything else (that they alone cause) is only finite to some degree. The forces only directly cause an infinity of space-time, and everything that space-time and the action of the two forces "subsequently" cause becomes increasingly more observationally finite within the interconnected infinity of their most direct maker, the space-time. Due to this absolute interconnectedness, observational finiteness is the delusion, not absolute finiteness. The wholeness of space-time is the wholeness of physical reality, and this is not a defined whole, like a thing is, but a logical whole even though infinite. In (at least one of) the two forces being absolutely finite, this very absolute non-spatialness must mean the existence of that causal entity manifests everywhere, everywhere just being within the expansionary force.

The above theory requires causal boundaries, and as previously mentioned elsewhere, these boundaries form by localised equalisation of the two forces, creating layers of differentiation, or existence.

Just for interest I posted some recent excerpts.

That Steven dude said this recently
It is by virtue of the alternative to existence being impossible that gives rise to the distinction between possibility and impossible, and the necessity for all possibility to be present. Impossible cannot be possible, and if it is impossible it is self negating. The distinction and the boundary is between the fundamental states of existence, all that is possible and the paradox of the existence of the impossible. It is not objects themselves that are present, but their possibility.
We observe possibility. Those objects, events and occurances that are of the highest possibility in relation to our own state of possibility are those that make themselves known to us directly. The true Universe is an underlying heaving morasse of all possibility regardless of scale, of which we are a possible part and of which we are dimly aware. The superficial Universe of which we are highly aware are the possibility peaks that are highest only in the subject context of what our probability is.
Underlying this is the paradox of the possibility of impossible, the impossibility of the impossible, the existence of the impossible, the absence of the possible. The boundary is obvious, the boundary between the possible and impossible, but it is not a boundary that exists because the impossible would have to exist, it cannot be probed, and there cannot be anything beyond it.
And I said this
Time might just be the pulse between nothingness as an impossibility and existence as a reality. The expansionary force can never expand to be the totality of reality, and the contracting force can never contract to be the impossibility of nothingness. Putting this in the context of time, then time becomes the inbetweenness between the dual impossibilities of nothingness and absolute fullness (of one singular thing). There may be no "static-totality of existence" - which after all as a concept doesn’t make sense in all possible ways - but there may be a fluctuation in between as "reality" rebounds from the non-dualistic absolute states, that can never be caused to exist, these states being total fullness (of one kind) and total nothingness.
There is something in nature that causes a reversal of causal form when an extreme is approached. I read somewhere recently that science is pointing to a sort of gravitational reversal as the universe expanded and is expanding. Reversal is not quite the right word. A thing at near maximum level does not necessarily revert to what it once was, but seems to become a different form of the opposite of what it was maximised as. There is some form of Doppler effect at the fundamental level. Just as a car sounds different when approaching, then when it has passed, so too is there a similar affect within the totality of what is fundamental.

James:
That concept however is just a memory, seeing as consciousness is just observation, the part of themselves that observes, that part of one's self, is a non-duality whenever it manifests, but it can only manifest in dualistic concert with that which is not-consciousness, which is everything else.
Sapius:
Consciousness and not-consciousness is but a matter of degree as we see it (all being patters at its core), and what necessarily is, is awareness all the way, and consciousness is but a much more complex level of awareness. I can even call the boundary-sensed-self of a particle to be consciousness, but since it is generally accepted as sentient awareness, so I wouldn’t call it so.

Regarding the “part” of one’s self that observes; that "part" IS consciousness itself and IS the Self itself. It isn't a "part".
It is a "part" within the context of where it can manifest, the environment, the earth and so on.
In saying the above you are arguing the case for non-duality. With the use of the word IS means you are referencing consciousness as a form of non-duality. In referencing it in this fashion you are seeing the total and not at the same time recognising the parts that create the totality that is the experience of consciousness.

Duality is meaningless without non-duality. Each opposite dualistic component would have no relationship to the other without their union into a non-duality. A, B = A, B whereas A + B = A and B and C(A+B).

Poetically speaking, consciousness actually manifests through the lens of the contracting force. Why? Well consciousness requires the steady creation of vacancy. Consciousness needs to be empty in order to be filled. Consciousness has a dualistic existence between emptiness and fullness. Consciousness is a kind of central nucleus of the body, but just like the nucleus of an atom it must attract In-to-Itself, in order to exist. In order to attract in, means the contracting force is more dominant in the physical territory that human consciousness resides.
… Or did I not understand what you meant by 'part'?
I have the feeling you may have.
bert
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Re: Fundamental Assumptions

Post by bert »

'like' first recognized differences and then likenesses. the emotional contact gave effusion which helped us to see interrelationships everywhere and - the inducement to new likenesses in what would have been unlikely.
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