GENIUS FORUMS

Logic: is what you may call the process of reasoning. Reasoning is the thought process of picking #3 over #2 and #1 when the desire is to gain the most money from the following options:

1) 8-quarters, 10-dimes, 20-nickels, and a 10-dollar bill.

2) 40-nickels, 5-dimes, 6-quarters, and a 10-dollar bill.

3) 15-dollar bill.

Logic is used to add up #1 and #2 and reasoning is used to distinguish which sum from which category is the most worthwhile for the purpose of obtaining the most amount of money. This means that logic and reasoning go hand in hand, they are the same.

[So, why do I sometimes read about the "difference" or I'll see something written in this form: "Logical reasoning", is this because there's another form of reasoning? I do not think so - if it isn't logical it isn't reasoning. Logic is a tool used when reasoning and in order to reason one needs to use logic, this is only logical and there's no other way.]

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Security: is the sense that one is free from danger and discomfort (anxiety, depression etc). One needs this if one want to function and develop normally. The ego (sense of self) is the reason why one gets up in the morning (as humans). The stronger the ego the more accomplished a person may be. It's a belief in one's abilities that is fueled by the ego. As abilities grow, so does the ego. This is the harvest from security and would probably not be possible if there was not security. Security also seems to play a role in how we reason and the possibility of reason.

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Our beliefs (truths) as we see them...

"Logic" is a subset of "reason". Not all reason(ing) is logical. For instance. "I haven't had pizza in a while, I think that I will order out for a pizza". That statement is not logical but is reasonable.

Quote... "As abilities grow, so does the ego." (End Quote) That statement is illogical.
The logically correct statement is "As abilities grow, the ego may grow".

I see what you mean, however...

I haven't had pizza in a while, I think that I will order out for a pizza

It's the same thing. It's logical for the person to eat out, because...

1. They are hungry.

2. Some external+internal factors lead them to think about a restaurant.

3. Memories.

4. DNA

...And much more. Decisions and everything else involve cause and effect, therefore it's all logical.

Logic=Reason.

Maybe I'm wrong.

nitty-gritty wrote:I see what you mean, however...

I haven't had pizza in a while, I think that I will order out for a pizza

It's the same thing. It's logical for the person to eat out, because...

1. They are hungry.

2. Some external+internal factors lead them to think about a restaurant.

3. Memories.

4. DNA

...And much more. Decisions and everything else involve cause and effect, therefore it's all logical.

Logic=Reason.

Maybe I'm wrong.

Not necessarily ("Maybe i'm wrong").... In this instance you may be either right or wrong. It all depends upon the reasoning process (supplied above) that leads up to the decision.
The reasoning process can just as well be....:
a) I haven't had pizza for a while
b) My mother used to make pizza every week
c) I miss my mother, therefore
d) I will order a pizza

Perhaps what makes the above 'logical' is a missing piece of information...
that being 'the mother' is the pizza delivery person! :)

Is all reasoning constructed with the basic building blocks of logic? What, at bottom, is logic? Answer the latter and you answer the former.

1. I haven't had pizza for awhile.
2. I value not eating pizza too frequently.
3. I am hungry and desire to eat pizza.
4. Therefore I shall order pizza.

1. I haven't had pizza for awhile.
2. I value not eating pizza too frequently.
3. I am hungry and desire to eat pizza.
4. Therefore I shall order pizza.
5. Delivered pizzas are expensive, though.
6. I have a very tight budget.
7. I will value not eating pizza even less frequently.

Here’s your logic Neil:

1. I haven’t had pizza for awhile.
2. Pizza makes my stomach hurt, but it tastes so good, and I remember my ex-girlfriend used to encourage me to order pizza, regardless of how I felt afterwards.
3. my ex-girlfriend made me miserable due to being attached.
4. Therefore, I shall order a pizza and call my ex-girlfriend and beg her to come back to me.

Dan Rowden wrote:Is all reasoning constructed with the basic building blocks of logic? What, at bottom, is logic? Answer the latter and you answer the former.

Hmmmm... the master has given us a zen koan....... :)

My reply is that "no, not all reasoning is constructed with the basic building blocks of logic"! Because "logic" is applied to a given field of information or situation so logic alone is without any value without a field of information to apply it.
Part 2 .... "What, at bottom, is logic?" .... logic is "the branch of philosophy that analyzes inference" including "an analysis of the principles that guide reasoning within a given field or situation".

A situation where typical 'logic' may be inoperative is witin the field of metaphysics which establishes a transcendental 'cause and effect' relationship that goes beyond mundane physics and philosophy.
For instance: A person hiking along a path is struck by a boulder.....
a) The physicist claims that gravity was the cause
b) The priest claims that "God struck you with a boulder" and
c) The metaphysician ponders why he had himself struck with a boulder.

Each of the three individuals (above) are analyzing the same fact situation and employing three entirely different systems of 'logic' and arriving at three entirely different determinations as to the cause of the identical fact situation.

So... I would say that 'logic' is the application of a particular system or method of reasoning in order to be able to draw additional inferences from a particular field of information (usually a syllogism).

I must leave now because the pink bus is coming and only pink busses go to city hall. I wonder where I will wind up? :)

Dan Rowden wrote:1. I haven't had pizza for awhile.
2. I value not eating pizza too frequently.
3. I am hungry and desire to eat pizza.
4. Therefore I shall order pizza.
5. Delivered pizzas are expensive, though.
6. I have a very tight budget.
7. I will value not eating pizza even less frequently.

I assume you mean;
7. I will value eating pizza even less frequently.

Oh, yeah, that's what I meant.

Rhett wrote:I assume you mean;
7. I will value eating pizza even less frequently.

Rhett! I can't answer now... I got on a pink bus where the sign said "Only pink buses go to City Hall" and the driver is going in the opposite direction ??? !!!
I will need that pizza because I think that we are going to the suburbs!

but NO!!!! The truth is that I will value NOT eating pizza less frequently because I think that I will need the carbs to get to City Hall.

JohnChasWebb,

My reply is that "no, not all reasoning is constructed with the basic building blocks of logic"! Because "logic" is applied to a given field of information or situation so logic alone is without any value without a field of information to apply it.

I don't see how reasoning is any different.

You seem to be saying: Logic deals with a sure thing (such as Mathematics), while reasoning may involve some guess work. What if one is presented with the answers in regards to the previous unknown variables - then does his reasoning not change to unreasonable if originally wrong? (Reasoning is dependent on a belief system and logic isn't? (~Isn't math a belief system?)).

Not right = unreasonable,
illogical = wrong.

nitty-gritty wrote:JohnChasWebb,

My reply is that "no, not all reasoning is constructed with the basic building blocks of logic"! Because "logic" is applied to a given field of information or situation so logic alone is without any value without a field of information to apply it.

I don't see how reasoning is any different.

You seem to be saying: Logic deals with a sure thing (such as Mathematics), while reasoning may involve some guess work. What if one is presented with the answers in regards to the previous unknown variables - then does his reasoning not change to unreasonable if originally wrong? (Reasoning is dependent on a belief system and logic isn't? (~Isn't math a belief system?)).

Not right = unreasonable,
illogical = wrong.

Hmmmm.... let's hash this out...... Logic, I believe, is a subset of reason. Systems of logic often operate within a closed universe (or system). For instance, "All pink buses go to City Hall" ... in that closed universe there only exists (so far, anyway) City Hall and NOT City Hall and, perhaps, pink buses. "Reason", on the other hand, operates within and outside of closed systems, like the world at large and any determination of 'reasonableness' requires assembling a great deal of facts unlike the closed system of a major and minor premise of a syllogism.

In the syllogism "All green buses go to City Hall, I am on a green bus therefore I am going to City Hall. Ta Da... logical and reasonable! But, in the world at large, outside of any spoken syllogism we often do not have all of the data to make a determination of reasonableness or logical..... For instance, Florence sold her new Volvo for $1.00. Why that's ridiculous! Well, her boss told her that if she did that then he would reimburse her 10 times her loss. Why that's great! Example #2 (opinion) is reasonable but it is logical? Whereas, in the syllogism example there is no doubt, whatsoever, that the conclusion is logical and reasonable. In the Volvo example any conclusion that we may make is only temporarily correct pending additional information. For instance she sold the Volvo at the time that she needed immediately to take her child to the hospital. Oh... more data..... I must update my conclusion!

Yes, I believe that math operates within a pure logic that is very reasonable. It (the result) can be tested and found to be true. (e.g. E=MC squared).

Reasoning and logic both depend upon a belief system. It is just that (opinion) pure reasoning requires a great deal more data than a logic problem. Perhaps, philosophically speaking, when operating outside of syllogistic logic we rarely have sufficient data to form a firm conclusion (a judgment) and our conclusions must be continually updated as we become privy to more facts.

As such 'reason' may be logical but may never be conclusively final such as in syllogistic logic problems.

As a result, I see logic as a subset of reason because any reasonable conclusion can still be questioned by another party to the analysis. At some point 'reasonableness' (opinion) can become subjective whereas pure logic does not allow for subjective opinions.
Yes, there is some overlap, perhaps even a 'unity', but outside of those brackets we are in the murky waters of subjective opinion.

Quote... I got on a pink bus where the sign said "Only pink buses go to City Hall" and the driver is going in the opposite direction ??? !!!
I will need that pizza because I think that we are going to the suburbs! End Quote.

While I was on the pink bus of the "Only pink buses go to Cit Hall" kind, I asked the driver where we were and he replied that we were at "NOT City Hall"! He then informed me that the pink bus that I was on was NOT going to City Hall that the bus was NOT one of the pink buses that went there!
At at stop some guy gets on the bus who looks like pictures of Jesus Christ that I have seen and he is wearing a tee shirt that says 30 years + Pi then he died. He starts handing out hot cross buns. I told him that I didn't need a hot cross bun because I ordered a pizza to be delivered at theabsolute.net.
So!!! I finally get out off the bus and back to theabsolute.net and find that my pizza is being used in a syllogism. It is perfectly illogical to use good Italian food in a syllogism.
It may be reasonable but it is not logical. I should have accepted the hot cross bun from the 30 years + Pi guy (33.14).

So if math is logical then how does the guy in the tee shirt sum up the life of Christ (33.14 years) as 30 + Pi? Go figure????

I have been here for three days and you have already driven me out of my mind. :)

I don't get it.

nitty-gritty wrote:I don't get it.

I don't blame you for not 'getting it' .... I was just goofin' with some nonsense.

Yes - at my expense, thanks a lot stranger.

Is this correct: Logic may equal reason (?).

So I guess everyone agrees with my work! (Thank you)

Aw-shucks!...This place isn't soo bad!