Belief in God

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
Kevin Solway
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Belief in God

Post by Kevin Solway »

The following caught my eye:

The God Delusion: David Quinn & Richard Dawkins debate

This David Quinn is an Irish Catholic, I think.

The part that stood out for me was the following:
Quinn: You do not know where matter came from.

Dawkins: I don’t know. Science is working on it. Science is a progressive thing that’s working on it. You don’t know but you claim that you do.

Quinn: I claim to know the probable answer.
"Probable"!

So his faith boils down to only "probable"?

This means that his spirituality is in fact only an empirical science, and not spirituality at all.
ExpectantlyIronic
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Post by ExpectantlyIronic »

Kevin,
This means that his spirituality is in fact only an empirical science, and not spirituality at all.
His spirituality, I imagine, boils down a bunch of shoddy inferences. That makes it the product of (bad) logic. We really can't say that such a hypothesis simply awaits testing, as it can't be tested at any time in the foreseeable future, and thus it falls into the hands of philosophers. As a self-proclaimed philosopher, I feel that there are more pressing issues for philosophers to discuss, such as whether or not there are more pressing issues for philosophers to discuss, so I say throw the God nonsense to the mystics. They can smoke a joint and discuss how crazy it would be if God were just a pineapple. However we feel like generalizing things, I really don't think that God is or ought to be the prerogative of science. At least until someone figures out a way to test such a thing.
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DHodges
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God and Free Will

Post by DHodges »

I have to agree with Quinn that Dawkins should address free will.

Maybe Dawkins just didn't want to get into it because that would take a while to discuss, and it's one of those things that most people think are obvious. Or maybe he thinks free will is a less dangerous or less harmful delusion than God.

If there was a god that was omnipotent and omnipresent, it seems to me that he would have to control everything, and so there would be no possibility of free will anyway. (Actually I don't think free will is even a coherent concept.)

I'd like to know how the theist gets from his "uncaused cause" - a rather abstract, Deist kind of concept - to a specific morality. Seems like there is quite a leap there from the God that he is willing to defend in argument to the God people actually believe in, which is some sort of being that dictates morality, sends prophets, writes holy books, punishes evildoers, and so on. What does the existence of such a creature have to do with uncaused causes?
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Unidian
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Post by Unidian »

Free will doesn't work from any logical perspective. No matter where our thinking starts, if it is honest and complete, we end up with determinism.

One doesn't have to think about the issue at all. But if one does, they are going to either arrive at determinism or make a mistake somewhere.
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Post by Pye »

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Unidian writes:
Free will doesn't work from any logical perspective. No matter where our thinking starts, if it is honest and complete, we end up with determinism.
I think this is the wrong place to end up, and rather the right place to start. Determinism itself is not the fullest description of the human reality, and the word "free" in the free will/determinism debate - when recast - says something perhaps more important than its religiously-debated (and assumedly extra-causal) counterpart.

Sartre might have said it "condemned to choose," but just as well is this arrived to through the determinist scheme. We don't have a choice but to have to choose - every advancing step of our existence, even and especially whether to stay alive or not at all. We are caused to choose, what and how to direct our human becoming. And being as humans are never in a state of Being, but in one of becoming, we have a lot of choosing to do, or avoid (this latter a choice in itself).

Now if you want to talk about those autonomic mechanisms that also advance every step of our becoming that we do not apparently choose (i.e. breathing, defecating, sensory transmission, etc.), then you have located what you have in common with mammals. That's fine and stuff, but few philosophers have had interest in expending their time there. No, it is the human experience and Interpretation of the Reality that we've been crapping on about for centuries. Reason (shall we say consciousness?) has always been the philosopher's stone.

Having arrived to consciousness, the hard determinist will explain to you that everything that goes on in that world in your head is fully caused of course, but the hard determinist does not countenance any given unit of consciousness as having any conscious control of that world. (So, consciousness, apparently, is not conscious, or at least, very efficacious) When the hard-determinist speaks of everything you think or do being caused, he assumes that "you" do not have anything to do with it, as many are fond of reminding that there is no "you" anyway. Consciousness, to the hard-determinist, is just the clearinghouse of all sensory input and internal processes of any given [human] organism. You think what you think purely because you are caused to, even though there is no you in the first place to direct or receive this thinking. Multiple forces out of your control have assembled you into thinking you are a you, but really, you're not. The sense of self is a false sense, brought about by the very organism that you are actually not, but that nevertheless maintains that sense for some particular reason . . . .

I'm getting a whiff of the limitations to this sort of thinking, aren't you? Does this philosophy as an end in itself most accurately describe your lived experience?

Additionally, neither my lived experience nor my reason leads me to believe that this world inside my head (of which "I" am apparently no part of) has a cap on it. At no time do I perceive myself to be conscious of everything, nor do I perceive that I can ever become conscious of everything. My awareness tells me that there is no determinate limit to awareness - it can go on and on and morph into this and that and affect thus and those, ad infinitum. At no time do I stop becoming, or becoming aware, nor do I ever stay in any given state of being. Without an end-cap upon consciousness, the hard determinist can only point to the mechanism of my understanding (cause/effect, of which apparently, "I" am no part), but can advance nothing further about that understanding itself, but to say it was caused. This is an impoverished place to cease one's thinking.

It is also an invitation to avoid dealing with the lived experience, and philosophy has always been vulnerable to attack for this. Determinism tells me I am not a me (I'm only caused to think that); hence, I am not a cause in, of, or for myself; that I do not make choices, but merely react to things; and that the most important thing to note about consciousness is that its all causation. In one fell swoop, I (who doesn't really exist) have a visa to conclude my thinking with causation itself; to dismiss my lived experience as a self as pure "delusion"; and to not bother honing my choice-making skills, because "I"'m not in control of them anyway; they're illusory; there's nothing to choose and nothing/no one to hone. Any sense of agonizing I have experienced over making a choice was probably just the hard-drive crunching away until it delivered "me" the commensurate reaction. And finally, hard determinism refuses to acknowledge the for-itself nature of human consciousness, unlike the for-itself, which is smart enough to know it's been determined that way.

You don't have a choice about having to make choices; and you are not free from having a will, and the only sense in which the word "free" can be recovered in this debate is if it's recast as an expression of the singular isolation of the for-itself being. "Free" would be better expressed abandoned, in this isolated, for-itself condition. There is no escape from it, but the end of its existence itself. It is forced to make its way through the world, choosing again and again what will be for itself.

It is from that point that we philosophize. I wish I had a nickel for every philosophy that's come down the pike, addressing the suffering of us by rationalizing us away. A little like Nietzsche, I envision a time when humans can qwitcher bitching and buck the fuck up and deal and create with their lived existences. what a cowardly, timorous, animal we mostly are; one who flinches at every suffering and pain, flinches at most of its lived reality by conceptually dissolving it, and itself, away. This, or scurrying under nice big safe philosophic rocks like this one, and in bad faith, passively outgassing the rest of their existences.


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Unidian
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Post by Unidian »

I'm not saying that determinism is "the truth of reality." Rather, determinism in some form is where thinking leads. If we think consistently and logically, we end up with some form of determinism ("caused to choose" varieties included). But determinism and free will are still just concepts - two sides of a conceptual coin. Reality is trans-conceptual.

BTW, existentialism is boring.
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Pye
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Post by Pye »

.
Reality is trans-conceptual.
Yo.
but thanks for the occasion anyway . . . .


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Post by Pye »

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BTW, existentialism is boring.

however, existence is not.


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Unidian
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Post by Unidian »

Why the dots? Just curious.
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Post by Pye »

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They are pleasant dots, humbles ones, who know they ought to have made clearer that the "you" in the aforementioned harangue did not mean you personally. They were there acknowledging their error in compelling you to have to start a sentence with "I didn't say that . . ." etc. They did not want to form themselves into a smiley face or gather up into a summary period, but rather defer in this friendlier manner.


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Unidian
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Post by Unidian »

I see. That's a pleasant explanation. Thanks.

In that spirit, I'd like to withdraw the "existentialism is boring" remark, which was unkind and not really necessary.
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ExpectantlyIronic
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Post by ExpectantlyIronic »

Unidian,
But determinism and free will are still just concepts - two sides of a conceptual coin.
Are you suggesting that the term "determinism" isn't used to reference a state of affairs believed to exist in the world? If so, then I'm curious as to how you'd go about defending it. If it's purely conceptual, then it seems that it can only be defended by axiomatically accepting a set of propositions for it to cohere to. Such an outlook runs into the problem of how one goes about selecting one set of axioms rather then another.

If you do accept there to be empirical facts for the theory of determinism to correspond to, then in what way is it just a concept? In such a case the concept of determinism would seem to be an mental abstraction of the physical facts it references (in a manner of speaking). Though we may only have direct conscious access to the concept of determinism in most cases, it would seem that we could also theoretically observe that which lead to our original abductive inference that determinism is true. If we reject the possibility of observing those occurrences which lead us to believe in determinism, then on what grounds are we justified in believing in it?
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Jamesh
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Post by Jamesh »

My awareness tells me that there is no determinate limit to awareness - it can go on and on and morph into this and that and affect thus and those, ad infinitum.
My awareness tells me this is semi-rubbish. While we can evolve greater memory tools and greater flows of data through one's frontal calculational lobes and thus have the outcome of seeming to be more aware, I don't think there is any reality in that concept.

To me there is no awareness without emotion. Emotions are simply the brain telling the body to determine for the brain whether something feels beneficial to the body or not. If a experience generated brain signal to the body (and all are), creates chemicals in the body that in turn send a signal back to the brain that leads to a feeling of goodness or synergy with the original instruction, then the value sent back to the brain by the body will be stored as a memory with a positive value, or it will increase the strength of a pre-existing memory-value stored in memory.

Awareness has zero meaning except in relation to the body.
The same applies to truth. Truth is simply where the above flow of data occurs most significantly between areas within the brain, though of course signals will be continuosly sent from the brain that cause feedback to the brain where it can recognise the emotions of comfort and contentment. Most probably thinking causes a lesser level of adrenalin to flow to the body, and the body has evolved switches that once experienced are not activated at low levels of adrenalin.

Everything is interconnected and causal. If someone thinks that the brain controls everything then they are delusional and are abandoning cause and effect. The brain, one's memories from experience, the current experience and the present state of the chemical production units of the body are interconnected and work in concert with each other.

Cause and effect REQUIRES circular two way flows - to and from that which is external, to and from the body, to and from the brain in continiuos, multiple data stream, loops. The most basic and profound law of physics, namely that "every thing has an opposite reaction equal in total causal force" ensures this flow occurs. [Not that that is how Newton phrased it :) ]

To become more intelligent we actually need to co-evolve greater bodily sensory tools. Scientific tools, that measure things our bodies cannot observe, are the equivalent of an evolved bodily sensory tool.

To be consious however will always require a centre that all expereinced activity flows through, and thus no being can ever become a god, as to be a God requires omni-consciousness.
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Jason
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Post by Jason »

Unidian wrote:Free will doesn't work from any logical perspective. No matter where our thinking starts, if it is honest and complete, we end up with determinism.

One doesn't have to think about the issue at all. But if one does, they are going to either arrive at determinism or make a mistake somewhere.
From one perspective, I arrive at instantaneous spontaneity, which is neither free will or determinism, just suchness.
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Post by Unidian »

EI,

Determinism cannot be established empirically, as Hume showed. It is essentially a metaphysical issue. It is a conceptual construct of logic.
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Unidian
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Post by Unidian »

Jason,
From one perspective, I arrive at instantaneous spontaneity, which is neither free will or determinism, just suchness.
Heh... not bad. :)
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Post by Jamesh »

Determinism is the sum of the concept of cause and effect.

Cause and effect is determined to be real by empirical means.

To me the word Empirical, in the philsophical context, means verification and experimentation with one's own memories.
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Post by ExpectantlyIronic »

Unidian,
Determinism cannot be established empirically, as Hume showed. It is essentially a metaphysical issue. It is a conceptual construct of logic.
Hume simply demonstrated that inference was involved in beliefs about causality. That doesn't make it an entirely metaphysical issue. For instance: when I bounce a ball in certain conditions it bounces back up at me. So I then infer that it is being caused to do this. It's true that the concept of causality was not exhausted by that which I observed, but it's nevertheless an inference from those observations. If we can go further, and infer from this that all things are caused, then it would seem that the theory of determinism is true. So, by my thinking, determinism can only hold true insofar as we allow that the initial observations which lead to the theory are facts. How would one go about arguing for determinism without the need to rely on such facts?
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Post by Pye »

.
Pye: My awareness tells me that there is no determinate limit to awareness - it can go on and on and morph into this and that and affect thus and those, ad infinitum.

Jamesh: My awareness tells me this is semi-rubbish. While we can evolve greater memory tools and greater flows of data through one's frontal calculational lobes and thus have the outcome of seeming to be more aware, I don't think there is any reality in that concept.
What are these "greater memory tools" and "greater flows of data" supposed to represent then? More delusional experience?

Nevertheless, the process of awareness - as process itself - is an on and on thing for the given organism as long as that organism exists, whether so-called gains have been made or not. Consciousness/awareness becomes of an indeterminate quality in this sense alone, because it is process and not thing. In what framework then would one cast consciousness in order to measure it? What start and what finish shall frame this entity so that we may see its determinable limits?

What start and what finish could we possibly measure but the sum total of the conscious individual who lived the process out. And shall what we find there be expressive of what we shall find in each and every case?

More limited, impoverished thinking . . . .


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Post by Faust »

Unidian wrote:EI,

Determinism cannot be established empirically, as Hume showed. It is essentially a metaphysical issue. It is a conceptual construct of logic.
No Hume showed nothing. For the most part he just wanted to destroy everything to feel good. You can empirically prove determinism through conditioning of man, genetics and environment, it's very scientific, and philosophical.
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Post by Unidian »

Hume wanted to destroy everything to feel good? Your self-assured proclamations do not match the facts of Hume's own life. Hume stated that he felt best when socializing and participating in non-philosophical activities. His skepticism was deeply problematic for him on an emotional level.

People do not "destroy everything" to feel good. Going beyond Hume to the case of the philosopher in general, there is nothing enjoyable in the slightest about throwing out things like God, the soul, heaven, normality, patriotism, ego, happiness, and so on.

The truth will set you free, but first it will hurt like hell.
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Re: God and Free Will

Post by excelsior »

DHodges wrote: If there was a god that was omnipotent and omnipresent, it seems to me that he would have to control everything, and so there would be no possibility of free will anyway.
No offense, but I think this is bad logic. You can kill a person, but you don't do that. It's a big difference between what you can do, and what you actually do. Actually in the same manner you can answer a well known paradox:Q:"Can God create a stone that he can't lift?" A: "He won't do that!".

I should mention that I am not religious person. I gave that away when I decided to eliminate false judgement and to come to terms with myself(in terms of sincerity) for personal progress. But the concept of God has been made coherent by clerics using different interpretations of vague religious texts, which can be only voided by the simplicity and lack of unfounded assertions that characterizes science and rationality.
DHodges wrote: I'd like to know how the theist gets from his "uncaused cause" - a rather abstract, Deist kind of concept - to a specific morality. Seems like there is quite a leap there from the God that he is willing to defend in argument to the God people actually believe in, which is some sort of being that dictates morality, sends prophets, writes holy books, punishes evildoers, and so on. What does the existence of such a creature have to do with uncaused causes?
You put together an interpretation of literate and another of illiterate religious people. That's why they conflict.
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Post by Faust »

Unidian wrote:Hume wanted to destroy everything to feel good? Your self-assured proclamations do not match the facts of Hume's own life. Hume stated that he felt best when socializing and participating in non-philosophical activities. His skepticism was deeply problematic for him on an emotional level.

People do not "destroy everything" to feel good. Going beyond Hume to the case of the philosopher in general, there is nothing enjoyable in the slightest about throwing out things like God, the soul, heaven, normality, patriotism, ego, happiness, and so on.

The truth will set you free, but first it will hurt like hell.

Hmm he felt best when he WASN'T philosophizing but socializing, interesting.. He was superficial to things that we don't have problems for. Such as creating a supposed problem of causation, or being a compatibalist, etc..

Weininger: The view of Hume (and Mach), which only admits that there are "impressions" and "thoughts", and has almost driven the psyche out of present day psychology, declares that the whole world is to be considered exclusively as a picture in a reflector, a sort of kaleidoscope; it merely reduces everything to a dance of the "elements," without thought or order; it denies the possibility of obtaining a secure standpoint for thought; it not only destroys the idea of truth, and accordingly of reality, the only claims on which philosophy rests, but it also is to blame for the wretched plight of modern psychology.
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Post by brokenhead »

Jamesh wrote:
Awareness has zero meaning except in relation to the body.


That's not true, although I see what you mean, I think. Life, in this world, at least, requires a corresponding physical body. Yet doesn't sensory deprivation heighten awareness? If you've never had an out-of-body experience, it may be difficult to truly grasp this. But I think many meditative techniques and shamanic practices are designed to do just this, draw the noncorporeal part of oneself away from the corporeal, then cleave the two. If this is what you mean by awareness "in relation" to the body, then I agree: in most cases, the noncorporeal does return to the corporeal. If it does not, we call it "death." It's not at all clear, from an entirely objective point of view, that this "death" means the noncorporeal component has ceased to exist. Why should one assume that? The corporeal component - the body - clearly doesn't immediately ease to exist, so why should one expect the noncorporeal part to cease existing?
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Post by ExpectantlyIronic »

As an unashamed Humeian I'll go ahead and take a stab at defending him. First off, he was a skeptic (as all good philosophers tend to be), but not a complete skeptic. If we're stuck in Cartesian thinking, where the world can supposedly be understood in terms of logic, then I can see where his views could seem shocking and crushing. The simple fact of the matter is that we depend upon inductive inferences to support a vast chunk of that which we believe, and there can never be a logically sound method of induction. Oh well. The truths of logic tend to be unfailingly obvious, as sound logic never tells us anything new. It's sound by virtue of rephrasing what has already been said and necessarily implied. An exception can be made for abductive logic (where one accepts the theory that best explains the data), but such "logic" isn't even sound by logical standards.

Compatibilism is--insofar as I'm concerned--the best possible approach to freewill. The simple fact of the matter is that freewill isn't the opposite of determinism. Freewill, when thought of in a way where it can make any sense at all, is simply the idea that the physical processes involved in what we might consider a morally responsible being have a role in determining action. If Larry drops the ball, then Larry dropped the ball. More then just what I'd call "Larry" was involved in the causative chain that ultimately lead to the dropping of the ball, but what I call "Larry" had something to do with it, so he is responsible for his actions.

Hume simply can't be blamed for the fact we can't find a logical basis for the vast majority of truths about the world (the world of sensible facts mind you). The problem is self-evident for anyone who studies logic with any degree of depth. Only by construing causation into a worthless tautology that tells us nothing (and defining it in a way that Hume wouldn't have recognized it as causality), can we prove it with sound logic. I'd love to say that his views are self-evident to anyone who puts any degree of thought into matters, but they obviously aren't, given that he played a major role in destroying the dogmas of philosophy up until his time.

One is a bad philosopher if they assume that philosophy must have a solid foundation or method, and then dismiss whatever demonstrates otherwise based upon their passions and dogmatic assumptions to the contrary. It isn't damning on Hume that he cut the legs out from under the general trends of his time, but rather a demonstration of his freethinking tendencies and bravery in taking the trends of his time to their logical conclusion. When someone finds a way to convincingly refute Hume, without redefining the terms he used (as folks have a tendency to do), then they can freely dis him. Until then it's all whining about the fact he made us smell our own shit. Hume may have said that "reason is and ought only to be the slave of the passions", but in acknowledging this, he broke from the chains that held back so many thinkers who came before him.
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