Postmodern Meaninglessness: genius or foolishness?

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
millipodium

Post by millipodium »

frank wrote:
When you had that 'moment'...where 'all philosophical problems resolved'...in a 'blinding flash of intuition'....
What is a philosophical problem? For whom is a philosophical problem a problem?

The only philosophical problems I see I would define as "a preoccupation with irrational abstract relatively meaningless phrases that sound neat and are designed to thwart rationality with circular self-referentiality, containing vague words to pseudo-define vague concepts." This is a problem.
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Post by bert »

to understand and to feel is an equation.
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Post by bert »

DavidQuinn000 wrote:bert wrote:
I know and know not,for when we hit a 'meaning' all meanings become obscure,have no range to clarify,and guessing becomes our way.the simple complex and our logic a tautology of things that qualify or not and must turn over to their opposites.order becomes chaos.
duality is complexity,it is a millions of things emanating.
Can someone translate this for me?

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I'm glad that I am able to detheosize my selfconception.
not many people are able to do that.
It brings me closer to some kind of Godhood
millipodium

Post by millipodium »

bert wrote:
DavidQuinn000 wrote:bert wrote:
I know and know not,for when we hit a 'meaning' all meanings become obscure,have no range to clarify,and guessing becomes our way.the simple complex and our logic a tautology of things that qualify or not and must turn over to their opposites.order becomes chaos.
duality is complexity,it is a millions of things emanating.
Can someone translate this for me?

-
I'm glad that I am able to detheosize my selfconception.
not many people are able to do that.
It brings me closer to some kind of Godhood
You think so?

That's hilarious.
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Post by Jamesh »

Clinging to Self as Rescuer...as you do...same Script, different Guy.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong...I'm saying it's an Activity...an Act...and in the Act a Self is created...and what it's about is 'in order to'...effect our Meaning.


Well David, I can find no disagreement with these comments from Frank.

Do you accept these concepts or do you not? You know if you don't accept them, without being able to expalin why, I will regard this as evidence of delusion.

They would not apply to everyone who attempts to promote their truths, not just those who call themselves enlightened. It would be a habit learnt in the pursuit of truths, enhanced or strenghtened somewhat when one loses desire/meaning for things other than truth.
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Post by David Quinn »

James,
frank: Clinging to Self as Rescuer...as you do...same Script, different Guy.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong...I'm saying it's an Activity...an Act...and in the Act a Self is created...and what it's about is 'in order to'...effect our Meaning.

James: Well David, I can find no disagreement with these comments from Frank.

Do you accept these concepts or do you not? You know if you don't accept them, without being able to expalin why, I will regard this as evidence of delusion.

What is he saying, exactly? "David, you find meaning in rescuing people from delusion". I would have thought that this was so obvious that it didn't need stating.

It's like saying, "David, you are breathing when you speak and act".

Well, thanks for that, frank.

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Post by David Quinn »

frank wrote:
F: Without actions, there is no agent. Without those two, there is no effect. Without an effect, there is consequently no subject of experience. Hence, they are all empty. (Nargajuna)

Actions originate from self-clinging. (Nargajuna)

Afflictions are the cause of actions. (Nargajuna)

DQ: Are you saying that Nagarjuna was afflicted when he acted to write these things?

F: Clinging to Self as Rescuer...as you do...same Script, different Guy.

I think your use of the word "script" to refer to any human action is unwarranted and even rather foolish. For it doesn't distinguish between those who really are following a script - i.e. who are blindly doing what they have been taught by others to do - and those who act independently out of their own wisdom and understanding.

This is foolish because it sends the message to people, particularly young people, that is impossible for anyone to break free of all scripted-behaviour and reach genuine independence of mind.

But as I say, it is in your own personal interests to do away with this distinction, as you have structured your life around not thinking too deeply about anything and avoiding participating in the spiritual process. As a consequence, your own timidity and defensiveness is contributing to the ignorance of the world.

When you had that 'moment'...where 'all philosophical problems resolved'...in a 'blinding flash of intuition'....
That is low-level stuff which students of truth begin experiencing at the very early stages of their philosophical development. Genuine enlightenment is of another order entirely. It is neither intuitive in nature, nor does it occur in sudden flashes. Rather, it is something which arises permanently and in full visibility when one has methodically dismantled the core delusions of life.

In that 'moment'...the chain of Cause and Effect you had previously 'travelled' was irrevocably interrupted..discontinued...another Way opened..a Way more oriented in the true Nature of the Tao..
Genuine insight into Reality can certainly open up another Way and orientate the mind towards the true nature of the Tao. But never, in any step of this process, is the chain of cause and effect "interrupted" or "discontinued".

Kensho or realising the 'true nature' groks the Act straight away...the 'emptiness'...

There's such Joy in grokking the Act...or Way of Being...the 'emptiness' of it...
If there is joy in the experience, it is a sign that there is still ego involved and that the kensho-experience is not pure.

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Post by bert »

Clinging to Self as Rescuer...as you do...same Script, different Guy.

the meaning of what frank says here confronts to the same problem as when I say:what is there to believe,but in Self?
you can not believe in something that is outside the conceptive faculty.conception implies believing.and believe is to make "one" more convincing.what again means what Nietzsche says:the believe in external things is one of the necessary errors of mankind.because when we conceptualise it is of duality,it is not of Truth.For,ideas of Self in conflict can not be slain,by resistance(as in you meet the duality within(the conception of "I am not",must follow the conception of "I am")) they are a reality.
So we must fix it,we must make it empty and meaningless,for by allowing maturity(of an idea) is to predicate decay - by non-resistance (which you feel) is regression to early simplicity AND the passage to the original and unity(emptiness) without the idea.this is the process that is undergone when frank says it is the walking above ground,the euphoria.
we have fixed the conceptive faculty,we have made it empty and meaningless.'all is a parable'.
no man has seen self at any time.for everything is empty and meaningless,when we got it fixed.Schiller - "in error only is there life,and knowledge must be death".yeeaayy,lets fix knowledge,shall we?

when (as usually stated) we can not conceive what we are conceiving ,then what is conceivable.
Self is the negation of completeness as reality.
we are what we believe and what it implies by a process of time in the conception,creation is caused by this bo,ndage to formula.

actions are expressions of ideas coughed up in the believe,they being inherent are obscure,and they deceive introspection.
we have no direct experience of personality.

reality is your only truth(as stated in my commination),and he that be-lives his truth can make a reality.
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Post by bert »

quinn:
I think your use of the word "script" to refer to any human action is unwarranted and even rather foolish. For it doesn't distinguish between those who really are following a script - i.e. who are blindly doing what they have been taught by others to do - and those who act independently out of their own wisdom and understanding.
those who act out of their own wisdom and understanding still have a 'script'.
actions are expressions bound up in the belief.
what is there to belief,but in Self?

the subject-object relationship is what can be called the 'as now' and 'as if'* moments of refraction that are within the Self's extrusion as Matter(the experiencing body) refracted through the Mind.
Self itself is conceptless and free,it has to be filled up,cause it acts in accordance with the Mind,the atmospheric 'I',vision,etc.
when in time-space,its experience is within the Matter(the experiencing body),the experience is in alliance with the ego and the Id.this interplay puts itself forth as a symbolic "rehearsel of reality",a mock reality.

therefore Schiller stated:
"in error only is there life,and knowledge must be death".



*:those who want to know more about the 'as if',read Vaihinger's book "The philosophy of 'as if'",the basis lies therein that we have no direct experience of the actual world.
he has the theory of the useful fiction which state:"The 'as if' world...the world of the 'unreal' is just as real and important as the real or actual.

another example:"The German philosopher Vaihinger had a term for beliefs that we know are not true but still come in handy: he called them useful fictions. That was his great philosophy of AS IF: you act AS IF something were true if it's beneficial to you. Now I'm not a philosopher, but I keep one handy around the house to answer questions about the meaning of life (no home should be without one).

another example:"Another major influence on [Alfred] Adler's thinking was the philosopher Hans Vaihinger, who wrote a book called The Philosophy of "As If." Vaihinger believed that ultimate truth would always be beyond us, but that, for practical purposes, we need to create partial truths.


another great thinker was Jeremy bentham:"Another thinker who took up the notion of conceptual construction and produced a truly remarkable compendium of detailed analyses was Jeremy Bentham. He developed his Theory of Fictions between 1760 (when he entered Oxford at the age of twelve and a half!) and 1814, when he published his first systematic exposition. He concluded: 'To language, then - to language alone - it is that fictitious entities owe their existence; their impossible, yet indispensable existence.'(4)
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Post by bert »

Quote:

When you had that 'moment'...where 'all philosophical problems resolved'...in a 'blinding flash of intuition'....

That is low-level stuff which students of truth begin experiencing at the very early stages of their philosophical development. Genuine enlightenment is of another order entirely. It is neither intuitive in nature, nor does it occur in sudden flashes. Rather, it is something which arises permanently and in full visibility when one has methodically dismantled the core delusions of life.
enlightenment is indeed another order.
but philosophy isn't.the philosopher tries to be as critical as he can.Philosophy is but a medium.it has no purpose.we are the meaning makers.

how do you dismantle the core delusion of life?by knowing that the real is an epiphenomenon of thought,a result of non-thought, a phenomenon of amnesia.the true real is within us and we project it...
by knowing:that Self is the negation of completeness as reality.
by knowing that we CAN not know.which implies that this is the ultimate knowledge to know ultimately all things.
that "all is illusion",that we have no direct experience of the personality,etc.

the outcome of dismanteling the core delusion of life is :Schiller - "in error only is there life,and knowledge must be death".
we CAN not know,yet I know.so I know that I do not know,for I KNOW that I know nothing.

useful fiction makes it possible to know that I do not know,for knowledge is the excrement of experience,experience its own repetition.
therefore,he who knows the source can convey lessons without teaching.he is pure in his wisdom.he who is pure in his knowledge of wisdom has no dogma to expound.

what man can know with certainty?he who has effaced the necessity of learning.
the beginning of wisdom is fear of fore-thought - the receiving of knowledge in learning.
the difference between good and evil is a matter of intellectual depth.
which is nearer you...???...???for you are change.(Self is the negation of completeness as reality)
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Post by bert »

Quote:
In that 'moment'...the chain of Cause and Effect you had previously 'travelled' was irrevocably interrupted..discontinued...another Way opened..a Way more oriented in the true Nature of the Tao..

Genuine insight into Reality can certainly open up another Way and orientate the mind towards the true nature of the Tao. But never, in any step of this process, is the chain of cause and effect "interrupted" or "discontinued".
out of curiousity...can you give a shot explaining it?
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Post by bert »

Quote:
Kensho or realising the 'true nature' groks the Act straight away...the 'emptiness'...

There's such Joy in grokking the Act...or Way of Being...the 'emptiness' of it...

If there is joy in the experience, it is a sign that there is still ego involved and that the kensho-experience is not pure.
no,it indeed is joy,pleasure,rapture,...for it is the completion of belief.All conceivable ideas are in the light of its emotion,the ecstacy that cometh from the creation of the idea induced by self.
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Post by bert »

for understanding,who takes the path to who?
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Post by bert »

Quote:
How could anything be untrue?

Just a few seconds ago, you talked about the act of "dogmatizing lies". Now you are suddenly saying there are no lies to dogmatize?

Man, you really are all over the place on this issue.

quinn,my friend,lokk to the factual
like I said,our confusion lies in the relating regarding space and time.
what is time but a variety of one thing?
what are lies but mistimed events?
what is all folly ,but will?
what are all beliefs but the possibilities of I?
why is all existence?Awake!
millipodium

Post by millipodium »

bert wrote:
Quote:
How could anything be untrue?

Just a few seconds ago, you talked about the act of "dogmatizing lies". Now you are suddenly saying there are no lies to dogmatize?

Man, you really are all over the place on this issue.
This is brainlessness, not appropriate for a genius forum


quinn,my friend,lokk to the factual
like I said,our confusion lies in the relating regarding space and time.
what is time but a variety of one thing?
what are lies but mistimed events?
what is all folly ,but will?
what are all beliefs but the possibilities of I?
why is all existence?Awake!
bert
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Post by bert »

a genius does not know how or why.

he does not use intelligence,for he knows that "the intelligence is false".

a genius works from his own alogical -ism.

all geniuses have active subconsciousnesses,and the less aware of that fact,the greater their accomplishments.

genius is obsession.

Michaelangelo,Cervantes,Rabelais,Voltaire,Shakespeare,...
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Post by David Quinn »

bert wrote:
a genius does not know how or why.

he does not use intelligence,for he knows that "the intelligence is false".
This is a myth, even for the artistic geniuses that you mention. Mozart, for example, always used to stress how much research and study he put into music and that is what lay down the basis for his compositional skills. Michelangelo and Shakespeare were also very industrious in applying their intelligence to their work. Voltaire was an imbecile, so in this instance you're right about intelligence not being used.

You're only trying to justify your own attachment to unconscious living, and your own inability to apply your intelligence in the genius realms.

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Post by bert »

DavidQuinn000 wrote:bert wrote:
a genius does not know how or why.

he does not use intelligence,for he knows that "the intelligence is false".
This is a myth, even for the artistic geniuses that you mention. Mozart, for example, always used to stress how much research and study he put into music and that is what lay down the basis for his compositional skills. Michelangelo and Shakespeare were also very industrious in applying their intelligence to their work. Voltaire was an imbecile, so in this instance you're right about intelligence not being used.

You're only trying to justify your own attachment to unconscious living, and your own inability to apply your intelligence in the genius realms.

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of course Mchaelangelo and Shakespeare applied intelligence.of course they know how and why.
the same counts for Darwin.
they know that they can not know.


they await inspiration.and guess there purposes.their reasons and conclusions do not refute their logic and syllogisms,having one Truth only.
in other words ,they are great geocentricists,anthropocentrists.


man has fallen at the foot of the mountain of littlenesses,facts,figures,knowledge,nominalism,categories,...and they have only served to excuse and to fuel the miseries of greed.so,the believer in Art,Beauty,Mystery and Magic is my brother.

and I have just applied intelligence in the realm of the Genius.
and I still know that the "intelligence is false".

Dali - I believe I am a rather mediocre painter in what I produce.the genius lies in my vision,not in what I am in the process of creating.
My delirium and lucidity are more important than my painting.
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Post by bert »

DavidQuinn000 wrote:bert wrote:
a genius does not know how or why.

he does not use intelligence,for he knows that "the intelligence is false".
This is a myth, even for the artistic geniuses that you mention. Mozart, for example, always used to stress how much research and study he put into music and that is what lay down the basis for his compositional skills. Michelangelo and Shakespeare were also very industrious in applying their intelligence to their work. Voltaire was an imbecile, so in this instance you're right about intelligence not being used.

You're only trying to justify your own attachment to unconscious living, and your own inability to apply your intelligence in the genius realms.

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I do not refute research and study.
but mozart could play the piano at his first try,he could play exactly the same thing by looking and listening to someone playing it who had years of training.he did that at the age of 4 or 5 ,I don't quite remember.that's genius.
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Post by David Quinn »

No, that is merely a talent for mimicry. Like a parrot, he was able to mimic sound patterns as a young child.

Genius is what is displayed in Dan Rowden's aphoristic writing where he is able to encapsulate some of the deepest truths of life in a few words.

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Post by David Quinn »

bert,
DQ: Genuine insight into Reality can certainly open up another Way and orientate the mind towards the true nature of the Tao. But never, in any step of this process, is the chain of cause and effect "interrupted" or "discontinued".

b: out of curiousity...can you give a shot explaining it?

I've already written a very clear explanation of it in Wisdom of the Infinite, and so I'll refer you there.

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Post by Tharan »

...the euphoria, the lightness of being, the feeling of walking 2 inches above the ground, the heightened senses, the security...yummy.
The intoxication! What a thrill!
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Post by bert »

DavidQuinn000 wrote:No, that is merely a talent for mimicry. Like a parrot, he was able to mimic sound patterns as a young child.

Genius is what is displayed in Dan Rowden's aphoristic writing where he is able to encapsulate some of the deepest truths of life in a few words.

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there indeed is talent,but it goes hand in hand.
I don't see how a child of 5 could do it without having an active subconsciousness.
the sub-conscious activity is the "capacity",the "knowledge"

;all other we aquire is of a negative or manurial value.the virtue of learning and aquiring knowledge by the ordinary means is in it's worry and dissapointment,of that degree which causes 'exhaustion':by that the desire might accidentaly reach the real abode of knowledge,ie,the subconsciousness.

another form of talent are those gifted to solving extreme difficult calculations in seconds.when you ask them how do you do it,they say:I don't know it just comes up.no intelligence needed.

intelligence of the parrot is very limited of what I've seen on a documentary.they can only count to 5-10,etc.
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Post by frank »

David:
Genuine insight into Reality can certainly open up another Way and orientate the mind towards the true nature of the Tao. But never, in any step of this process, is the chain of cause and effect "interrupted" or "discontinued".
n the spiritual life an intellectual understanding is not enough. People who have read many books on the subject might think they have a good understanding of Zen, but this is not enough. There must also be a definite spiritual experience, there must be a conversion, a tremendous change in our mode of awareness, our way of looking at things, and our way of behaving, for there to be any real spiritual life at all.

Most of the time we are just acquiring intellectual information from external sources; there is no fundamental modification of the quality of consciousness itself. But it is this radical transformation in the mode of our consciousness which is the point of the whole exercise. There must be this turning about, even turning upside-down, or as Nietzsche says 'a transvaluation of all values' in which we see things not just in a slightly different way, but in a totally different way, with all our previous values reversed. We must be prepared even for that. And the turning about, this conversion, is sudden - that it takes place in an instant.

Here we can see at once the connection with the Zen idea of 'Sudden Enlightenment'.
Unfortunately it is still commonly taken to mean that you can get Enlightened easily and quickly, without any trouble at all.

You just go along to the library, take out one or two books on Zen, read them, and hey presto! There you are! Conveniently forgetting that the books themselves say 'No dependence on words and letters'. Indeed, 'a book on Zen' is really an absolute contradiction in terms. Where there are books, there is no Zen - or one might say, where there is Zen, there are no books. At least, there is in Zen no dependence on books, no reliance upon them. Conversion, enlightenment, or satori, is sudden or only appears sudden because its coming about has been taking place at a different, deeper level, hidden from view.

frank
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Post by millipodium »

frank wrote: There must also be a definite spiritual experience, there must be a conversion, a tremendous change in our mode of awareness, our way of looking at things, and our way of behaving, for there to be any real spiritual life at all.
Are you a born-again zen buddhist?

That would be a great bumper sticker, Born-Again Zen.
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