GENIUS FORUMS

Leyla Shen wrote:Mm-hm. So, "historically tied with religion" is different to religious how, exactly?

in the same way as russian orthodox xianity is different from russian ethnicity. Orthodox xianity is deeply entangled with russian ethnic identity, it's a part of history and culture -- and yet to be a russian is not the same thing as to be an orthodox xian.

Get back to me when you have it figured out, kiddo.

That's not my argument, oh proficient fashioner of ultra-flammable straw men.

Sure it is. You have claimed that jews are not an ethnicity but a religion. In this, you are blatantly wrong.

Yes, Israel is a secular democracy in the same way that the Chief Rabbinate (who decides immigration law, no less) is an atheist Jew when it comes to state policy.

Chief Rabbinate doesn't decide immigration policy. See here. Their input is considered important, but not definitive, and they don't speak on immigration policy, but rather on what canonically constitutes being a jew. Their criteria for jewishness include ethnic ones. However, law of return permits aliyah to any grandchild of a jew (not just matrilineal grandchild), and any immediate relatives of a thusly qualifying oleh -- i.e. people not qualifying as jews under religious law. This is very distinctly not a religious law, you stupid little thing.

BTW, an interesting snippet from the Wiki page I linked above:

A third explanation [for the non-religious immigration policy] promoted by religious Jews is that the overwhelmingly secular leadership in Israel sought to undermine the influence of religious elements in Israeli politics and society by allowing more secular Jews and their non-Jewish spouses to immigrate.

You are an ignorant lying idiot, dudette.

Take the idea of a secular democracy with a Chief Rabbinate who decides the country's citizenship based on religious texts, for example. I mean, that has to be a first, "AFAIK."

Rabbis have been the keepers of jewish legal tradition for centuries. As i had said, for jews, religion and ethnicity are intertwined; nonetheless, we are an ethnicity -- and Israel is far more secular than USA is (in fact religious jews in Israel are widely disliked because they are seen as a burden on the state, because they often live on welfare and don't serve in the IDF); and rabbis don't determine the immigration law in Israel.

I am constantly amazed by clueless fools like you proudly staking the grounds of ignorance, and refusing to educate themselves. You are ignorant, and proud of it. Such intellectual dishonesty and corruption disgusts me. We live in an information age -- facts are just a few minutes' search away.

So, just to summarize, so that you can wrap your wee wittle mind around it all at once:

1) Israel was founded by secular (i.e. ethnic) jews.
2) Zionism has been sicne the beginning a secular movement, and religious jews had opposed it initially.
3) Israeli laws aren't written by the rabbis, not even the Law of Return.
4) Israel is overwhelmingly secular.
5) Even jewish religious law recognizes jews as ethnicity and not just a religion.

i know it's painful for you to recognize your own recalcitrant ignorance and willful stupidity, but i suggest that, unless you are willing to start thinking rationally, you should get used to your ignorance and stupidity being laid bare for all to see.

I bet if you used syntax analysis on the "Protocols of Zion" you'd find out it was not written by someone who spoke Yiddish.

Whatever the secular foundation of Israel may be, from a real politik strategic perspective, it serves the interest of the US, EU, and the global market to have the place run by the "Jews", however you care to define the term. Whether the Ashkenazi are descendant or not, their founding of Israel empowered the Sephardic Jews, who certainly are, to return to their homeland, the same as any other indigeneous people. When do indigenous rights expire?

If the "Palestinians" were capable of running the place, they wouldda done so at least once in the 2000 years since Trajan hauled off the original management. Palestinians dont need a nation, they need more intensive case work, along with the rest of the Islamic world.

The falseflag 911 event provided the excuse to move in the region with force, which is the only thing the Islamic world understands. When Hillary takes over, she will place a lot more women over there in positions of authority, and really rattle the ragheads.

One of the reasons that Israel and the Jews have been so successful, is that while the religion is outwardly misogynistic, Jewish culture is not, and very early we see Ashkenazi women in feminism. True to their Sogdian heritage, they really do know how to run an office.

I see charges that the whole world is run by a Jewish plot. Well, just who do you suggest do it? the Chinese? If you create a power vacuum, what you get is anarchy and power struggles. Before we remove the Jews, maybe we should work out who should replace them. Nominations? Pat Robertson?

No, dumbo. How about this for your puny little mind:

1) The pseudo-political, abstract state of Israel was founded by secular (i.e. ethnic) jews, who retained the authority of a religious figure (as an atheist, why do you not have alarm bells going off here, Victor?) in government, the Chief Rabbinate, who determines what/who is a Jew for the purpose of citizenship in Israel

2) Zionism has been sicne the beginning been proffered as a secular movement, despite clear evidence to the contrary, and SOME religious jews had opposed it initially and do to this day.

3) Israeli laws aren't written by the rabbis, not even the Law of Return. The Law of Return, Right of Aliyah, “Every Jew has the right to come to this country as an oleh.” Given that the to power to determine what constitutes one’s Jewishness is exercised by a religious figure, the Law of Return is necessarily religious by virtue of Rabbinical execution.

4) Israel is overwhelmingly secular. Define “secular.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Israel

5) Even jewish religious law recognizes jews as ethnicity and not just a religion. Since it is religious law, such recognition is religious by definition. I mean, fucken duh!

Leyla Shen wrote:No, dumbo. How about this for your puny little mind:

You don't learn too fact, do you, kiddo?..

The pseudo-political, abstract state of Israel was founded by secular (i.e. ethnic) jews, who retained the authority of a religious figure (as an atheist, why do you not have alarm bells going off here, Victor?) in government, the Chief Rabbinate, who determines what/who is a Jew for the purpose of citizenship in Israel

Chief Rabbinate does nothing of the sort. While they do make a halachic determination of who is and isn't a jew, and their approval is required for converts to judaism to receive aliyah rights, the Law of Return does not rely on halachic laws to determine the right of return.

For example, if i were not a jew, but were married to a woman who was a patrilineal granddaughter of a jew, both my wife and I would qualify for aliyah and instant Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return, even though neither I nor my wife would qualify as jews under halachic law.

Why don't you take a break from being an idiot and a liar, kiddo?

Zionism has been sicne the beginning been proffered as a secular movement, despite clear evidence to the contrary, and SOME religious jews had opposed it initially and do to this day.

no, idiot, the initial opposition from the religious circles was overwhelming. The prevailing view among the fundies was that only Moshiach could re-establish israel. After Holocaust, most religious communities came around to support Zionism -- but they followed the lead of secular jews there. The secular, atheist, socialist jews had led the way in advancing Zionism as a nationalist (not religious) ideology, and in creating israel not a theocracy, but as a secular nation-state. Incidentally, a number of kibbutzim, -- you know, those crypto-religious jews who you claim weren't secular at all -- are raising pigs...

Doesn't it phase you in the slightest that Israel is not a theocracy, that is has a lower rate of both belief in god in general, and religious fundamentalism in particular, than USA does?.. No, I don't suppose it does -- your mind is made up, you won't be confused with facts.

The Law of Return, Right of Aliyah, “Every Jew has the right to come to this country as an oleh.” Given that the to power to determine what constitutes one’s Jewishness is exercised by a religious figure, the Law of Return is necessarily religious by virtue of Rabbinical execution.

you bloody idiot, who qualifies as a jew for the purposes of law of Return is not determined by any religious authority, but by secular statute. This is why a patrilineal grand-child of a jew would quality, even though they wouldn't qualify as a jew under religious law.

Damn, you don't have even a slightest regard for facts, do you, you developmentally disadvantaged dummkopf?

4) Israel is overwhelmingly secular. Define "secular." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Israel

Yeah, idiot. From there: 'Among all Israeli Jews, 65% believe in God' -- that number is around 80% in USA.

but you didn't even read that whole article, did you?.. You seem to have missed all the involvement of secular jews in Israeli politics.

5) Even jewish religious law recognizes jews as ethnicity and not just a religion. Since it is religious law, such recognition is religious by definition. I mean, fucken duh!

May i suggest some cold compresses for the concussion which is the only plausible explanation for your monumental idiocy?

To add some fuel to the fire:

Gary Tobin, head of the Institute for Jewish and Community Research says about being Jew:

The dichotomy between religion and culture doesn't really exist. Every religious attribute is filled with culture; every cultural act filled with religiosity.

Which is so true.


Also the CIA factbook on Israel: ethnic Jews: 76.4 %, religious Jews: 76.4 %.

What Victor doesn't seem to know that in general, a secular Jew is regarded as someone who is not orthodox or conservative in regards to Judaism. It has nothing to do with being not religious.

Dude, I lived in Israel, so I know very well who is regarded as a 'secular jew', and it's not just members of reform judaism.

I have also cited numbers on god-belief among israeli jews -- 65%. That's among jews, not just Israeli citizens. Are you going to address the facts?

LOL at the people trying to instruct the Jew about Judaism.

They are geniuses, dude.

This kinda makes me wonder though -- what would you call a monumentally ignorant genius, a genius who is an ignoramus? An ignoranius? A geniramus?

An ignoranus might be best.

vicdan wrote:Dude, I lived in Israel, so I know very well who is regarded as a 'secular jew', and it's not just members of reform judaism.

So.... what are they in your opinion? And why are many stats counting them still as religious then?

I have also cited numbers on god-belief among israeli jews -- 65%. That's among jews, not just Israeli citizens. Are you going to address the facts?

Okay, I see I didn't read the stats of that article correctly. I was an idiot okay? But I also noticed there's a lot of confusion in general about this and lack of good resources. See also Wikipedia talk pages. I'd like to see more detail on that.

Being a genius does not preclude one from being a neurotic, and as Dr. Freud noted, coming up with ingenius ways of explaining of supporting delusion. And as the Nazi video shows, deluding a great nation as well. While Hitler did not have a majority when he gained power, his success at using it eventually had most of the nation giving the Nazi salute.

Had Bush had the same kind of spectacular success in the mid East, nobody would be paying attention to the details of 911. No, the 911 conspiracy theories are kept on hand in case scapegoats will be needed.

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:So.... what are they in your opinion? And why are many stats counting them still as religious then?

How should i know? Give me a specific study the methodology of which i can examine, and i will give you an answer.

Okay, I see I didn't read the stats of that article correctly. I was an idiot okay?

By virtue of this recognition, you aren't, okay? I regard as idiots only those who willfully refuse to deal with reality.

Philosophaster wrote:LOL at the people trying to instruct the Jew about Judaism.

Wasn't that what G'd tried to do for ages ? Or so the story goes...

vicdan wrote:

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:So.... what are they in your opinion? And why are many stats counting them still as religious then?

How should i know? Give me a specific study the methodology of which i can examine, and i will give you an answer.

First some definition I came across at Wiki

Wikipedia: Who is a Jew

"Ethnic Jew" (also known as an "assimilated Jew," see cultural assimilation) is a term generally used to describe a person of Jewish parentage and background who does not actively practice Judaism but still identifies with Judaism and/or other Jews culturally and fraternally. The term "ethnic Jew" does not specifically exclude practicing Jews, but they are usually simply referred to as "Jews" without the qualifying adjective "ethnic". See: Ethnic group.

The term can refer to people of diverse beliefs and backgrounds due to the complex concepts of what makes a person "Jewish". Since "ethnic Jew" is often used to distinguish non-practicing from practicing ("religious") Jews, a more precise term might be "secular Jew."

What would you think of this definition?

Then about the statistics. Going to http://www.cbs.gov.il and selecting on population by religion, it seems that at least the census bureau calls everything Jew, ethnic, secular or not, when it comes to religion. Or that's how I read it.

Now you can cite numbers of 'god belief' but although you write that this was 'only' 65% of the Jewish population who were completely believing, it would be more prudent to say that 13 % do not believe and the others in varying degrees.

It also says that 47% takes scriptures literally and God's commands, making them sort of fundamentalists. Since 76,4 % was Jewish in Israel, we still have 35% of the whole country which qualifies for fundamentalist of one particular religion. That's significant compared to 9,9% who don't believe in this God at all. And in the USA such fundamentalists are at the most 20% (I think 10-15%) although I don't have some research handy to back that up.

So unless I'm reading it all wrong I do think the numbers and the usage by American and Israeli agencies are working against you Victor. The "Jew" is seen as religious by all parties and near to a majority (65% of 76.4%) of the country is certainly religious as they are certain, believing completely in a God, which they only know through scriptures and religious tradition of course, otherwise 'higher power' would be enough.

I wish it was different and I hope you can prove me wrong.

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:What would you think of this definition?

Nothing in particular. it seems accurate enough, given its brevity.

Then about the statistics. Going to http://www.cbs.gov.il and selecting on population by religion, it seems that at least the census bureau calls everything Jew, ethnic, secular or not, when it comes to religion. Or that's how I read it.

That does indeed seem to be the case. if you read the questionare used to generate these numbers, though, you will note that the question was phrased essentially as 'are you a jew or an atheist'? Which seems to be a politically driven formulation. Even though religious fundies comprise on the order of 10% of Israeli voters last I looked, they wield disproportionate political influence due to being the tie-breaker bloc, and this unfortunate fact of parliamentary politics is reflected in the running of the state.

Now you can cite numbers of 'god belief' but although you write that this was 'only' 65% of the Jewish population who were completely believing, it would be more prudent to say that 13 % do not believe and the others in varying degrees.

Why? I got the 65% number from this survey. Some highlights;

• 43% consider themselves non-religious, and additional 5% consider themselves anti-religious.
• 21% are totally non-observant. Of the 29% who are non-religious but somewhat observant, probably over half are observant in the cultural sense -- they observe high holidays the way americans observe xmas and easter; it's a cultural thing, not a religious ones.
• 65% believe there is a god. That's the highest religious indicator -- all others (good deeds are rewarded, supreme power exists, etc.) are even lower.
• The four strongest components of jewish identity are the establishment of Israel (70%), the wars Israel endured (68%), parents' home in Israel (68%) and living in Israel (63%). Every single one of those is a secular zionist criterion. note that the religion is not among the top four.
• 78% believe Israel should have jewish but not necessarily religious character. Those numbers are 79%-88% among non-religious and anti-religious.

Now there are also some numbers connecting religious tradition to the state; probably because for us, religious tradition largely is the cultural tradition. However, as you can see, these numbers simply make no sense unless you can distinguish between jews as an ethnicity and judaism as a religion, and allow the two to overlap but not be mutually definitive.

I saw some statistics recently showing that 72.7% of Jews have pockets deeper than the length of their arms. I wonder if this makes all people with such pockets Jewish?

Oy vey.

Victor wrote:...probably because for [Jews], religious tradition largely is the cultural tradition.

Exactly the point, you ignoramus!

You know, if I didn't know any better, i would think you are being deliberately obtuse.

Oh wait, I don't know any better... :) and given you blatantly ignoring the highlights I posted from that israeli survey, the ones which simply make no sense unless being a jew is an ethnicty, i rather suspect the opposite, you fucking willfully brainless git.

Many peoples' traditions are entwined with religion -- americans, russians, chinese, japanese... none of this mean that those aren't ethnicities. Do try to make those two remaining functional neurons spark together and fire in concert, dummy.

P.S. A jew who grew up in Europe, amidst the ethnic tensions and contexts, is being called an ignoramus about jews by a non-jew living in Australia who doesn't have a clue about ethnicity. The world is full of irony...

DHodges wrote:Just as there are a growing number of topics I won't bother to read (e.g., the HOAX of Evolution) because I know the content is almost certain to be retarded, there are certain posters who, over the course of several months, prove themselves to have nothing of value to say. So I put them on ignore.

I thought this remark very appropriate, since one of the most rabid anti-semites here is also one of the most ardent anti-evolutionists (faust13).

:-P

Vic:
not when there's so little merit to deal with. There is zero merit in affirming the Protocols,

hsandman:
<Let people decide that for them selves? Makes for a fun reading - I like fiction.
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/przion1.htm>

Vic:
denying Holocaust,

hsandman:
<why is it illegal?>

Vic:
suggesting that Mossad staged 9/11,

hsandman:
<They played a part in it = Forknowlidge and Joy of it+ 911 was inside job with permision of USA Governmnet=Mostly Jew controled and Silverstain = Jew . Denied and twisted by media who had also forknowlidge = Mostly jewish controlled as well. >

Vic:
asserting that magnets are an infinite source of magical energy,

hsandman:
< http://pesn.com/2006/08/21/9500298_Steo ... _gauntlet/
>

Vic:
proposing that all vertebrates might die because the oxygen will vanish,

hsandman:
<He did not say “will vanish” he said “If it vanishes” = boom straw man.>

Vic:
claiming that jews are not an ethnicity, etc.

hasandman:
<My great grandmother was Jewish, am i a Jew? Thanks.>

Vic:
all positions which have been proposed by various 'geniuses' here, all prima facie, obviously, undeniably lunatic ones to anyoe with even the slightest of clues. Seriously.

hasandman:
< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority>

Vic:
You wanna see the source of idiocy? Consider why you are attracting so many raving, ignorant, in-your-face idiots here. Your forum, in terms of idiocy quotient, is about as bad as a typical fundy xian one. You just have idiots that swing in a different direction.

hasandman:
< ignorant, in-your-face idiot= That describes you to a tee.>

Vic:

laiming that Protocols are real, or asserting that magnets are infinite sources of energy, is not idiocy because such claims disagree with me, but because they disagree with vast bodies of well-verified evidence.

hasandman:
< I, can also prove that commercial tv, owned mainly by Zionist(?) jews who present “well verified evidence” is biased and untruthful, downright manipulative in fact. I KNOW, that general science is manipulated by greed and politics, where anything with word “free” in it is abhorrent and heavily censored. It goes well beyond simple censure though.>

Iolous:Of course there's plenty of great Jews! Frankly, I prefer to deal with them than Christians. SFAIK, no one here hates Jews, or advocates such.

hsandman:
<Vic just ignores the reality and substitutes his own in the posts and then demolishes it with witty insults.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man>

Vic:
As far as i am concerned, willful ignorance is the only true form of idiocy (outside of actual retardation or mental illness of course). Incidental ignorance can be remedied; but if a person willfully ignores evidence, there's no remedying that.

hsandman:
< I am starting to agree with you on that vic. >

Vic:
Israel is a secular democracy, idiot.

<_<
O_o

Vic:
Ah, when you have no evidence, make shit up... Seems to be a pattern around here.

hsandman:
<you seem to be major contributor to that pattern.>

Leyla Shen : That's not my argument, oh proficient fashioner of ultra-flammable straw men.

hsandman:
<lol @ ultra-flammable>

Philosophaster :LOL at the people trying to instruct the Jew about Judaism.

hsandman:
<Slippery sucker all right, organised too.>

Philosophaster: I thought this remark very appropriate, since one of the most rabid anti-semites here is also one of the most ardent anti-evolutionists (faust13).

hsandman:
<I think theory of evolution is a good one, I think it is not the whole story as pertaining to humans and Life in general. Creationists have even less validity imo. Foust 13 seems to be reasonable guy, but I don’t know what is his take on all that. There are too much pieces missing to put this puzzle together by amateurs I guess. I kind of personaly like http://www.panspermia.org/ this view of evolution. >

Agreed that jailing people for "anti-semetic" rhetoric is nuts. Obviously against the standard of free speech, but also a prima facia case for a mental exam. If they also denied that the genocide carried out by the Turks, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and the Japs really happened, then their case mite seem more rational, but to deny it to only the Jews- and not the gypsies, is delusional.

Not that the Jewish control of the media has kept the focus on what the Jews went thru. But what we are talking about here is a form of group think, and that needs to be delved into more carefully. Having a court look at "evidence" regarding 911 would help. If the antisemites really wanted to get anywhere, rather than just ranting, they'd go after the achillies heel of the Jewish media contol: 911.

But as I ask in my post on partisan issues, they really want the ego feed of ranting. We all recognize an accent when we hear someone speak. And when they write, if you are familiar with the culture, you can tell a lot about who the author was. The Elders of Zion dont pass the sniff test in that regard. It was written by someone who knew the biases of European antisemites, but not really that much about the way Jews express themselves. Nietzsche was aware of the idiocy of anti-semitism also. He made clear, that we dont have a "Jewish Problem", we have a *CHRISTIAN PROBLEM*.

Yes Jews on Wall Street knew about 911. But so did Wall Street Christians. And both knew the political usefulness of supporting Israel as well as the strategic importance of having a non-Islamic ally there. It is about the oil, and if push comes to shove, we'll need the bases in Israel. We see how fickle the Turks are.

Note, I am not making a moral argument here. The Almighty Dollar needs Israel in the Global Economy. If need be, the New World order will have American troops seize Saudi oil, and pipe it to the Mediterranean coast thru Israel.

FWIW, If your great grandmother had daughters, and they produce granddaughters, and you are the son of 1 of them, then you are jewish. It is traced in the female line. They could never be sure of the sperm donor. The bedtime that I've had with Jewish women suggests the policy was wise.

The Junkers supported Hitler thinking he would repudiate the treaty of Versailles, which was crippling the German economy. They owned all the newspapers, and figured that after he did that for them, they could expose his faults and get rid of him. They did not see radio and film coming.

Now, the Internet is again a new media, and it remains to be seen who will use it to arise, just as Hitler did, to make an end run around the power elite control of the established mass media. All that will be required is some severe economic crisis to wake people up to the fact they have been lied to. It will take a new kind of mind however, the traditional demagogues have depended on the voice, where they could move from one emotional point to the next to empower their base. That's harder to do in ascii, where every line can be parsed out more carefully to see if it is consistent with what was posted before. However, there is no need for a commanding voice or stage presence. Body language dont work here.

...BECAUSE YOU, TOO, MIGHT BE A JEW AND UNITE THE PEOPLES OF THE WORLD! (Except if you're one of those non-existent Palestinans, of course, who don't count even if they do share the same matrilneal lineage, because it's their "Arab brothers'" fault.)

absolute moron wrote:in the same way as russian orthodox xianity is different from russian ethnicity. Orthodox xianity is deeply entangled with russian ethnic identity, it's a part of history and culture -- and yet to be a russian is not the same thing as to be an orthodox xian.

Yet to be a Jew is the same as being an Israeli, a Reformist Jew, a secular Jew, having either matrilineal or patrilineal heritage or both--you can be an American Jew, a Russian Jew and even a Christian Jew. Sweet. You’ve got every base covered, ain’t ya?

[rolls her eyes]

vicdan wrote:

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:

Since "ethnic Jew" is often used to distinguish non-practicing from practicing ("religious") Jews, a more precise term might be "secular Jew."

What would you think of this definition?

Nothing in particular. it seems accurate enough, given its brevity.

Well, then we can agree that 'Jew' is seen as mainly religious (or "ethnoreligious") entity with the exception of the so-called pure 'ethnic' or 'secular' Jews. And that for the most part people mess up their definitions (including the Jews!) for various purposes?

Even though religious fundies comprise on the order of 10% of Israeli voters last I looked, they wield disproportionate political influence due to being the tie-breaker bloc, and this unfortunate fact of parliamentary politics is reflected in the running of the state.

The 'fundies' are not the religious problem. From my and many other perspectives e.g. Ariel Sharon's commitment to Zionism, his root in militant nationalism was the worst of religions especially in this case where the reason to have a complete Israeli State there (not just some new Judean Kingdom) is shrouded mostly in mystical beliefs comparable to Hitler's Arian Atlantis fable. Or do you think the Christian and Jewish versions of history BC are to be trusted? The religious fever has dominated archeology in the Holy Land for a very long time, and still is dominating. (*see also next post)

Of course if for you extreme flag-waving nationalism (national existence against almost any price) is not religious in nature, especially when the most of that nation's greatness is buried in mythical stories, then we're not in the same discussion.

Now you can cite numbers of 'god belief' but although you write that this was 'only' 65% of the Jewish population who were completely believing, it would be more prudent to say that 13 % do not believe and the others in varying degrees.

Why?

A reply to a survey that states someone doesn't believe at all has a way more accurate potential than people giving more complex qualifiers. For example, I've learned that Jews see the qualifier 'secular' or 'non-religious' a bit differently than a Christian would. These Jewish 'secularists' have no problem believing in the God of the Torah or the 'birthright' of Israel which is based on the same Torah. To weasel out of that by dropping the religion qualifier is what I'd call typically Jewish. Not ethnic Jewish, they just don't know shit in general.

[*]65% believe there is a god. That's the highest religious indicator -- all others (good deeds are rewarded, supreme power exists, etc.) are even lower.

The god of their father I presume? That's not just religious indicator, it's a complete embrace of their Jewish belief in its essence. The 22% doubting could be closer to be merely 'religious'. Not sure if you have a background in religion, but strong doubt is very common as part of believing and acting out of belief. Only radicals have no doubt and your quoted 65% were written to believe completely in their Jewish God (which other?). That'd make them devout in any other religion.

[*]The four strongest components of jewish identity are the establishment of Israel (70%), the wars Israel endured (68%), parents' home in Israel (68%) and living in Israel (63%). Every single one of those is a secular zionist criterion. note that the religion is not among the top four.

The establishment of Israel as state anywhere close to the current borders relies mostly on religious rhetoric about a supposed Jewish King David, King Salomo and so on. Of course the new generation mostly cares about the last 70 years of sacrifice to justify the State.

Now there are also some numbers connecting religious tradition to the state; probably because for us, religious tradition largely is the cultural tradition. However, as you can see, these numbers simply make no sense unless you can distinguish between jews as an ethnicity and judaism as a religion, and allow the two to overlap but not be mutually definitive.

I've no disagreement with that. But no matter if culture, nationalism or religion is used to justify the Zionist idea of the state of Israel, it's all based on a mostly religiously inspired historical context at the bottom. I mean: on what else it could be based? What is the meaning or value of the culture, the larger 'Israel', the whole Zionist ideal without the religious justification? It's like believing in Santa Claus but not wanting to believe in the supernatural. Or like celebrating Christmas without caring for any Pagan or Christian roots. The big difference is that Christmas does not require military action....

*) To outline the historic-religious claim on the State of Israel the following is of interest

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Monarchy

According to Israel Finkelstein and Neil Silberman, at the time of the Davidic and Solomonic kingdoms, Jerusalem may have been unpopulated, or at most with a few hundred residents. They consider this insufficient to have ruled an empire stretching from the Euphrates to Eilath. They cite that the earliest independent reference to the Kingdom of Israel is about 890 BCE, whilst for that of Judah is about 750 BCE. Along with biblical minimalists, they claim that the Kingdom of Judah invented the United Monarchy to back up territorial claims to the Kingdom of Israel, during the reign of Hezekiah and Josiah.

Combine that with the stories about Abram and Moses being more mythical and religious than anything remotely connected to history and you can see how Jewish culture as well as Zionism is largely a religious artifact. Celebrate it but don't claim land for it.

Of course many Jews don't give a dying duck for the State of Israel since they have perhaps a better understanding of the truths underlying Judaism.

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:Well, then we can agree that 'Jew' is seen as mainly religious (or "ethnoreligious") entity with the exception of the so-called pure 'ethnic' or 'secular' Jews.

No. Jewish ethnicity exists independently of jewish religion. Historically, the latter has been a part of the former, just as catholicism has been a part of italian ethnic identity, or orthodox xianity of russian; but subordinating ethnicity to religion is a purely political move. Religious jews however try to make everyone believe that you can't be a 'good jew' (whatever that means) without being religious.

Regardless of the role of judaism, jews are an ethnicity. The confusion you are seeing is the echoes of the political and religious struggle, but even the religious jews admit that jews are an ethnicity, not just a religion.

The 'fundies' are not the religious problem. From my and many other perspectives e.g. Ariel Sharon's commitment to Zionism, his root in militant nationalism was the worst of religions

By that reasoning, any nationalism is a religion -- but this merely obscures the significant differences. Whether you like it or not, UN recognizes the right of all peoples to political self-determination, even if you personally regard the existence of the peoples as being grounded in a different mythology, the nationalist mythology.

A reply to a survey that states someone doesn't believe at all has a way more accurate potential than people giving more complex qualifiers. For example, I've learned that Jews see the qualifier 'secular' or 'non-religious' a bit differently than a Christian would.

The survey i cited listed specifically non-religious, non-observant, and non-believing numers.

The establishment of Israel as state anywhere close to the current borders relies mostly on religious rhetoric about a supposed Jewish King David, King Salomo and so on.

Erm, no. As i had told you, Zionism has been a predominantly secular nationalist movement all along.

I've no disagreement with that. But no matter if culture, nationalism or religion is used to justify the Zionist idea of the state of Israel, it's all based on a mostly religiously inspired historical context at the bottom.

BS. That jews had lived in Israel two-three millenia ago is an indisputable historical fact. All the archeological inquiries into whether Solomon or David existed, whether there ever was the One Kingdom, etc. -- all of them have nothing to do with the fact that Israel is the ancestral homeland of my people.

I personally don't give a fuck whether David and Solomon existed. However, when I stood on the outskirts of Jerusalem, sun-drenched hills in front of me and yellowstone buildings behind, the entire scene bathed in gold light, the knowledge that my grand-grand-grand-...-father probably stood in the same place, gazing at the same land, meant the world to me.

perhaps this will help you understand. Note that there isn't a single word about Tanakh in there...

I mean: on what else it could be based? What is the meaning or value of the culture, the larger 'Israel', the whole Zionist ideal without the religious justification?

Huh? Are you assuming that there is no reason but religion to believe that jews had lived in israel before the razing of the second temple?