The Invalidity of Enlightenment

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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David Quinn
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Post by David Quinn »

frank,
DQ: I know you probably mean well (or you're trying to land some kind of punch on me)

f: I want to know the 'truth'... the prior Causes...that got you where you are today...

Have a read of my bio.

Do let me know if it's not to your satisfaction.

you keep 'throwing the Script' at me and insisting it's the 'Right Script'...

Why don't you tell me what the right script is, since you seem to know better.

You've become like a 'Blurb Writer for Holiday Destinations'.....for a Tourist Operator.
The Land of Safety...is that near the Garden of Eden?...the Promised Land?
It's certainly Poetic.

That was one my causes coming through - the writings of Chuang Tzu. The Chinese love to conjure up poetic labels.

DQ: And don't worry, the boy is fine.

f: Yes, the Boy is fine...as long as he 'fits in' with your 'scheme of things'....as long as he doesn't 'drag' on your purse or Personage...as long as he 'practices' detachment from you...as long as he is 'over there' and 'not here'....

You're not in a position to make judgments about a situation you have little knowledge of.

Who speaks for the 'fatherless boy'?
Is the Boy Fine from the Boy's Angle?

You'll have to take my word on it.

Are you so locked into your Script it's become bothersome to think outside it?
Is that's what's happening?
No, this is your script and you're not bothering to think outside it.

-
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Cory Duchesne
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Post by Cory Duchesne »

Very few people explicitly bring ‘cause and effect’ into their consciousness and investigate its nature thoroughly.

And if they did, would they all be like you? What I’m getting at, is, do you value the survival of the human race? Judging from Solways comments about how he feels it is urgent for humanity to conquer space to increase our chances of survival, and considering the lengths you have gone to preserve the wisdom of past individuals, I assume that you at least share Solways notion that ones concern with the survival of the human race is important. But what’s the point in humanity surviving as the virus it is? If we leave this planet in order to increase our chances of survival –to what end would we be doing this for?

To perpetuate our plundering and exploitation? Isn’t that what we as humans are all about? Isn’t that what you are about David? You concern yourself with lofty, noble ideals for one reason, and one reason only – ‘self-esteem’, or as Sam Vaknin likes to say: ‘narcissistic supply’. Is there anyone who concerns themselves with nobility and loftiness for any other reason besides enjoyment? You tend to shun the word happiness, yet your are always emphasizing the gloriousness and enjoyment of your reality.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/A3 ... 76-7654309

http://samvak.tripod.com/narcissist/

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David: So even though they implicitly deal with causality in every aspect of their professional and personal lives, they still have little or no knowledge of it. It is still a foreign notion to them.
No David, I don’t think it’s a foreign notion to them. I think taking it to the extreme that you have is what is foreign to them. Again you fail to make a valuable distinction. Why do you suppose they haven’t taken causality to the extreme that you have David? Don’t settle for smug answers like ‘cowardice’, even though that is not ‘totally’ incorrect. But don’t let your self believe you are so different from most people 'soley' because you are the ‘braver’. ‘stronger’ soul. On the contrary most people get involved in studying wisdom and philosophy because they try to adapt to humanity and fail due to hypersensitivity, fearfulness, and 'inflexiblity' (by your book - a feminine trait).

The more significant reason the scientists you tried to influence were and are not willing to go to the extreme you have gone is because they were/are not as miserable with their lot that you were, and ‘perhaps’ continue to be. Because they're not miserable with being imperfect - they dont care. PLUS, and this is a biggie - the people you try to influence are, like you, concerned with being great men in their own minds - by their rules - so it is not at all pleasant for them to have you come along and suddenly turn their world upside down. The reason why Solway was able to influence you was probably because you had just recoverd or were recovering from some sort of personal crises or meltdown.

And thus, here we are, striving toward perfection (a mirage?) – what do you think perfection is anyway?
I don't know, Cory. Most people would immediately pick up that I am not perfect.
After all, I have an overly-high opinion of myself, no sense of humour, fixed repetitive views, a pathological hatred of women, a weakness for engaging in character assassination, a fear of intimacy and love, a lack of shame in bludging off the backs of Australian workers, a callous indifference towards the suffering of others - the list goes on and on.
Is this 1) some kind of desperate attempt at suddenly being humble David? Or is this 2) some sort of cunning attempt at didacticism in the guise of narcissistic self-deprecation? Or 3) simply a sincere confession that you truly believe? (which, due to the apparently self-aggrandizing, self deprecating nature of your personality, again provokes us to suspect a severe narcissistic personality disorder is the puppet master behind most of what you say and do)

If this is a genuine attempt at an honest confession on your part, then you should also add ‘pathological liar’ to your list.

You’ve been accused of hating women before, and your response has always been an assurance that you don’t hate women – but rather – you are simply making it very clear what women are.

Now you suddenly confess to harboring a pathological hatred for women.

But perhaps you’re trying to make the ironical point that, if a man was perfect, surely he would be unrecognizable as such. He would appear to be an abhorrent aberration to those who have an ideal of what perfection looks like.

What is it David? What do you think perfection is comprised of?

A young person like my self seeking meaning in life could easily begin to formulate a notion that perfection has much to do with the tendencies of your personality. There’s a lot of people out there who have the same ‘imperfections’ that you listed above, (for instance 'sometimes' I regard my self as having similar flaws - able to be humorous, but usually limited to ironic observations - ultimately unflexible and dour with common folk - - plus i'm a sucker for character assasinations, as you can tell by my harangues directed often at you) And your forum and persona can very easily function as a refuge for those desiring to preserve their imperfections by means of convicing themselves that they what they feel as flaws are really just symptoms of people close to perfection, whereas the rest of the normal, well adjusted people are really the cancer.

And if you truly believe that the qualites you listed as your flaws are truly your flaws - -- -What are the factors compelling you to maintain your flawed overly-high opinion of yourself? Why not focus your writing and discussions on those root factors? Ernest Becker might be a good start for you, if you want to take a closer step toward his notions of imperfection (and thus his notion of perfection)

If you can see that you have fixed repetitive views, why doesn’t this awareness of your neurosis stop you from doing what you feel is a flaw and instead explore some new thinkers, thinkers which emphasize the importance of things other than purely abstract logic. (I can't stress enough how important I think masanobu Fukuoka is - the philosopher closest to perfection in my opinion - if you are worth your salt david you will recognize his genius and sagehood)

If you think engaging in character assassination is a flaw, a weakness - - then why don’t you focus on the underlying, root causes compelling you to engage in this ‘flawed’ behavior?

If you think fear of intimacy and love is a flaw, then why do you constantly insist that to value love and intimacy are the mark of a flawed character?

And if you think having a lack of shame in bludging off the backs of Australian workers is a flaw, then why don’t you invest your time and energy more into not only understanding and writing about the virtue of feeling shame, but also put some work into taking some steps toward becoming more self-sufficient (see Bill Molison and David Holmgren of Permaculture and Masanobu Fukuoka). Why dont you work toward being less dependent on people’s complacent ignorance for your survival?

A callous indifference towards the suffering of others, pathological hatred of women, and having no sense of humor will probably be resolved to the degree that you manage to overcome your other flaws. Although, quite often you posts are quite funny in a subtle, wry, ironical way - and I think you know this. The ne plus ultra phenomenon was indeed hilarious as well.

Something tells me that you don’t ‘truly’ consider all of those things you listed as flaws, as really flaws – but symptoms of a man at the threshold of perfection. Was your list of personal flaws really just a weird misguided attempt at subterfuge for the sake of didacticism?
frank
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Post by frank »

Have a read of my bio.

Do let me know if it's not to your satisfaction.
Thanks for your Bio Dave..and curiosly I'm filled with Mirth again...in the sense that apparently your relatively 'idyllic' childhood was the product of a successful merging of the sexes...a pair of 'breeders' sage enough to co-create a harmonious environment for a family...
It's when you 'left the nest'...difficulties emerged....now you advocate the 'cutting of familial ties'..

For me, a feature of my childhood was a 'persistently drunken, wife beating' Father.
How ironic that I now advocate 'strong families'...
you keep 'throwing the Script' at me and insisting it's the 'Right Script'...

Why don't you tell me what the right script is, since you seem to know better.
I think the right script..or the better script..or the improved script...
...is a script that 'resolves the opposites' gleaned by analysis of the past...

...it's clear to me that God Men or Spiritual Men or Enlightened Men have set up a Polarity for themselves that 'skews' the Game in their Favour...

That they delineate themselves from a Species called 'the Breeders'....and from their lofty perch, pour scorn on 'the breeders' with epithets such as 'sinners'...'deluded'...'ignorant'.

It looks like a 'Control Game' to me.

I would like the Mythological Cartoons...Jesus/Buddha...(to me thay have a similar significance as Bugs Bunny has)...exposed for the chicanery it is.

I would like the Buddha dethroned...the Dharma discarded.

I would like a 'Dharma for Family Life' written.

Having a Priesthood/Monkhood that condemns 'the Breeders' and Women in particular...a Priesthood/Monkhood that can't tell us what the 'Nature of Reality is' but can only 'point to it'...like 'a shaky finger pointing at the moon'...that is really 'faith' or 'belief system' or 'trust' or a 'substitute Parent Figure to project onto'...'in order to' having it all make sense...

Family as Sangha looks like the sensible script to me...where these polarities are resolved...

frank
frank
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Post by frank »

...and isn't it time for Kev to emerge from his arrested development...his Perpetual Adolescence...to emerge into Manhood?

From his Bio, he concluded at an early age his parents were 'cwazy'...there being an implied motive...a search for New Parents.

A search for a Father Image and a Mother Image.

He found the Father Image in the pages of Philosophy Books as many Wounded Children do....he actually found a Community of Fathers....
Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, Hakuin, Ramakrishna, Ramana Maharshi, Thomas, Tao Te Ching, Chuang Tzu, The Dhammapada, The Bhagavad Gita, The Large Sutra on the Perfection of Wisdom, and Chandrakirti's Lucid Exposition of the Middle Way.

And what of the Mother Image?

And he found this.

Mother Dole.

Succour me, O Mother Dole, place your Bounty at My Door..protect your Precious Son from the Cold, Hard Workplace.
Save your Sensitive Son from his 'imagined terrors'...let me O Mother Dole suckle on your Nurturing Titty for my Milk and Honey...

You can see the Hilarious Nature of this.

There's Kev, kickin' back in his crib, dry nappy, dancing mobile and his 'mental construction' /New Parents overlooking him, smiling sweetly...

The Genius of the Baby...Kev's Genius.

Can the Forum have another Category of Posts called 'Nature As It Really Is'....a place where 'projections are withdrawn'?

frank
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David Quinn
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Post by David Quinn »

frank,
DQ: Have a read of my bio.

Do let me know if it's not to your satisfaction.

f: Thanks for your Bio Dave..and curiosly I'm filled with Mirth again...

Careful, you'll split your sides with all this mirth. And the wind might change too.

Nietzsche once described laughter as "malice with good conscience". This is so true. I can certainly observe a lot of malice in your mirth.

in the sense that apparently your relatively 'idyllic' childhood was the product of a successful merging of the sexes...a pair of 'breeders' sage enough to co-create a harmonious environment for a family...
It's when you 'left the nest'...difficulties emerged....now you advocate the 'cutting of familial ties'..

For me, a feature of my childhood was a 'persistently drunken, wife beating' Father.
How ironic that I now advocate 'strong families'...
It doesn't sound very strange to me. Those who come from dysfunctional families usually have unresolved yearnings for a decent family life which can plague them well into middle age and beyond. They can easily spend the rest of their lives searching for that familial connection which was denied them in childhood.

By contrast, the lack of dysfunctionality in my own childhood didn't create these unresolved yearnings, and hence I don't have any desire for family life. That's probably the best outcome that a decent familiy can hope for - to produce offspring who will calmly and happily denounce family (and attachments in general) when they reach adulthood.

f: you keep 'throwing the Script' at me and insisting it's the 'Right Script'...

DQ: Why don't you tell me what the right script is, since you seem to know better.

f: I think the right script..or the better script..or the improved script...
...is a script that 'resolves the opposites' gleaned by analysis of the past...

...it's clear to me that God Men or Spiritual Men or Enlightened Men have set up a Polarity for themselves that 'skews' the Game in their Favour...

That they delineate themselves from a Species called 'the Breeders'....and from their lofty perch, pour scorn on 'the breeders' with epithets such as 'sinners'...'deluded'...'ignorant'.

It looks like a 'Control Game' to me.

I would like the Mythological Cartoons...Jesus/Buddha...(to me thay have a similar significance as Bugs Bunny has)...exposed for the chicanery it is.

It is interesing that you are here pouring scorn on Jesus, Buddha and wise people in general. Does this mean you are also playing a "control game" as well? Are you also setting up a polarity which attempts to skew the game in your favour?

Why are you allowed to do this and not wise people?

Also, by what means have you concluded that enlightened wisdom is "chicanery"? How could you possibly know that? Isn't this just an arbitrary script that you have chosen to adopt for your own selfish reasons?

I would like the Buddha dethroned...the Dharma discarded.

I would like a 'Dharma for Family Life' written.

Having a Priesthood/Monkhood that condemns 'the Breeders' and Women in particular...a Priesthood/Monkhood that can't tell us what the 'Nature of Reality is' but can only 'point to it'...like 'a shaky finger pointing at the moon'...that is really 'faith' or 'belief system' or 'trust' or a 'substitute Parent Figure to project onto'...'in order to' having it all make sense...

You have unresolved yearnings for family life - that's fair enough, these things happen. It explains why you see the spiritual path as an expression of yearning for family life as well. For you, everything revolves around this particular script. Everyone is looking for parents, aspiring Buddhas and dysfunctional people alike.

The trouble is, this is a very narrow way to look at life and grossly misrepresents what spirituality is all about. It denies the existence of enlightenment, the joys of solitary life, and the realities of mental development. It is exceedingly shallow.

Family as Sangha looks like the sensible script to me...where these polarities are resolved...
How are they resolved? In praising the family ideal, you are presenting an extreme point of view - just as extreme as mine - one that, like mine, completely rejects all opposing views, such as the view that attachments should be abandoned and enlightenment be sought through the mind.

As soon as one values any ideal - whether it be spiritual, familial or otherwise - a polarity is automatically created and all opposing points of view are rejected. It can't be escaped.

-
frank
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Post by frank »

Nietzsche once described laughter as "malice with good conscience". This is so true. I can certainly observe a lot of malice in your mirth.
I call that 'covert hostility'...what Nietschke calls 'malice with good conscience'
Yes, I have some of that...there is some malice in my mirth...it's an indication of my 'hurt'...
One of the prior causes that makes me what I am today is 'abandonment by the Father'...that 'hurt'...
By contrast, the lack of dysfunctionality in my own childhood didn't create these unresolved yearnings, and hence I don't have any desire for family life. That's probably the best outcome that a decent familiy can hope for - to produce offspring who will calmly and happily denounce family (and attachments in general) when they reach adulthood.
That's 'throwing the Script' at me Dave...really, mate, the thing I'm noticing in your Bio is, when you 'left the nest' you struck
conditions that were painful, bewildering and emotionally unlike
the conditions of comfort you had priorly experienced...
It is interesing that you are here pouring scorn on Jesus, Budhda and wise people in general. Does this mean you are also playing a "control game" as well? Are you also setting up a polarity which attempts to skew the game in your favour?
Maybe I'm one of those exposing the Polarity that exists between the God Men and the Breeders...that's what I hope I'm doing and that there's not too much Hubris...perhaps then the rift can be healed..
How are they resolved? In praising the family ideal, you are presenting an extreme point of view - just as extreme as mine - one that, like mine, completely rejects all opposing views, such as the view that attachments should be abandoned and enlightenment be sought through the mind.

As soon as one values any ideal - whether it be spiritual, familial or otherwise - a polarity is automatically created and all opposing points of view are rejected. It can't be escaped.
The fact is 'Nature As it Really Is' causes Humans to breed...it requires our involvement in getting the New Generation up and going...the Breeders are doing Nature's Will if you like...a part of that is that the New Born Babes require nurturing/ not abandonment or dysfunctionality...

God Men could bring aspects of their Theology...the Wise Bits into Family Life..apply it in that area..
..as opposed to 'fleeing' Family Life...'fleeing to some Ivory Tower which is a denial of Family Life, of Breeding's importance to the 'Family of Man'...

God Men effectively, like Herod, 'wash their hands' of the matter...step aside and condemn it roundly...where is the Wisdom in that?
It's not going to go away.

What is the use of God Men 'hustling' after Nirvana or Heaven or the Land of Safety in the scheme of things?
Trying to be 'over there' and 'not here'..

Why can't they get their 'noses out of the air'...roll up their sleeves and get cracking about healing dysfunctionality?

Their advice to the Young to 'Quit Breeding' is a Major Copout.

Get on Board Dave, this World Needs You.

frank
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DHodges
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Family is caused by family

Post by DHodges »

David Quinn wrote:It doesn't sound very strange to me. Those who come from dysfunctional families usually have unresolved yearnings for a decent family life which can plague them well into middle age and beyond. They can easily spend the rest of their lives searching for that familial connection which was denied them in childhood.
What usually happens is that the child resolves that he will be different; he has somethhing to prove, that he can do better. But he ends up just like the father. He has plenty of excuses for being that way. Somehow it just happens. He never had a different role model. It takes a lot of work to be different, not just an act of will.

A lot of this stuff happens on a subconscious or unconscious level; role models are absorbed at a pre-verbal level, at a very young age. People think they have conscious control over things, but when it comes down to it, they do what they are conditioned to do.

This is a lot easier to spot in other people than in yourself, of course. If you were (consciously) aware of what was going on in your subconscious, then it wouldn't be subconscious, would it?
By contrast, the lack of dysfunctionality in my own childhood didn't create these unresolved yearnings, and hence I don't have any desire for family life. That's probably the best outcome that a decent familiy can hope for - to produce offspring who will calmly and happily denounce family (and attachments in general) when they reach adulthood.
My brothers and sister ended up with much different attitudes than I have - the three of them are married with kids. I never really wanted to do that. It never stood up, I thought, to a cost-benefit analysis; seems like it's always based in some fantasy of what it will be like. (But that's what people do.) I don't know how I ended up with such a different attitude than my siblings.



FRANK - please stop usinging 'quote marks' in every damn sentence. You're going to use them all up, and there won't be any left for actual quotes. For emphasis, you can use bold, italics, or underlining. They are right there next to the quote button.
frank
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Post by frank »

please stop usinging 'quote marks'
I never goddamn usang a 'quote mark' my whole Life!

WTF is usinging?

Sheesh.

'frank'
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Post by Pye »

.

frank, I've enjoyed your posts for the being-specific behind them and your writing, too, before the agreement/disagreement thing comes in. I am reminded of a modern playwright (who I can't recall right now is either Edward Albee or Eugene O'Neill) who said something to the effect that A Family is a tyranny run by its most neurotic member, you know, you really can try this on the other way, at the least in your thinking. What will that harm.

It is possible to trace the innumerable depressions neuroses medications abuse clannishness tribalism incest arrested-childhood prejudice overpopulation intolerance fretfulness counseling family-genocide, fear and so on to the climate and conditions of this family unit you speak so appealingly for. I couldn't be more torn on the thing, but it's so assuming to speak of this kind of "love" as the thing that makes us best. It may make many things of us, including our propensity to hate.

Those closed, sometimes airless boxes holding people in private drama, house after house is a darkness too, even if their cabal of love and fighting is for what they thrive. And their childhoods last so long -- into relationships and breakups or stagnation or therapy, stamping their feet so frequently against the world when it is the impress of the family they are really trying to overcome. Immense expectations, mostly for the proper care and notice of themselves, rather than their own doing of it.

I have wracked my brains to imagine other configurations to the bringing into being humans. So far, I imagine them consciously conceived and consciously raised as the best I can go into it. And then, perhaps by far more than the family. As soon as I do that I am facing Plato and a natural repugnance for the children of the state scenario, but then the best and most excellent at childrearing are whom he intends to give the job. This could beat perhaps even the majority of parents, also raised in this configuration; reduce the majority of family-fuck (meant every way) that drags on people well into their "adulthood." I was wondering if a. you could look at families from this angle and see some things and b. if you can do more than support the family status but also future-envision.

.
Pye
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Post by Pye »

.

. . . after all, the World needs you too.

.
frank
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Post by frank »

frank, I've enjoyed your posts for the being-specific behind them and your writing, too, before the agreement/disagreement thing comes in.
Thanks Pye...I'm here to engage in thought-provoking dialogue and entertainment....apologies for any upsets I've caused in the finer feelings department due to a streak of covert hostility/sarcasm (apologies to D. Hodges) that's an aspect of my persona....being 'nice' doesn't feel like me, 'confronting' does...'confronting' feels authentic to me...me being 'confronting' probably doesn't work for Others which then becomes a problem for me as Others feel I'm not 'nice' and ought to be disregarded...me & Faizi & probably Dave share similar traits..

The general drive is to define the Human Condition as clearly as possible.
A Family is a tyranny run by its most neurotic member, you know, you really can try this on the other way, at the least in your thinking. What will that harm.
That is a type of Family...not all Families. I know some Functional Families based on Power Sharing principles...Parents who have taken Wisdom from the Pages of Philosophy and APPLIED that wisdom at the coalface ie, created a Family Environment sourced from the Wisdom of the pages of philosophy...
It's a greater game than 'blowing bubbles' at the local monastery..
So far, I imagine them consciously conceived and consciously raised as the best I can go into it.
That's the picture!

Thoughtful, wise Family Dynamics and by extension the Community grows thoughtful, wise...it takes a Village to grow an emotionally healthy Human.

There's a lot of Work to be done!

It seems alien to me that QRS would disassociate from the broader human activities and 'hack the dole' as a Solution...but then I am not enlightened and they are...and I wish to be...so, at some point I should shut up...

frank
suergaz

Post by suergaz »

What's wrong with being able to 'hack the dole'? Does it spell the beginning of the end? Communism?! :D What I don't sympathize with is misogyny.
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David Quinn
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Post by David Quinn »

frank,
DQ: By contrast, the lack of dysfunctionality in my own childhood didn't create these unresolved yearnings, and hence I don't have any desire for family life. That's probably the best outcome that a decent familiy can hope for - to produce offspring who will calmly and happily denounce family (and attachments in general) when they reach adulthood.

f: That's 'throwing the Script' at me Dave...really, mate, the thing I'm noticing in your Bio is, when you 'left the nest' you struck conditions that were painful, bewildering and emotionally unlike the conditions of comfort you had priorly experienced...

That was due to many factors, few of which had anything to do with family.

For example, throughout my teens I became increasingly disillusioned with society as a whole - its petty values, lies, falsehoods, small-mindedness, lack of depth, animalistic goals, etc. And then later, after I left home and I started becoming serious about Truth, I had to confront the issue of whether I had the capacity to lead a wise life and whether I loved it enough to take on humanity as an enemy.

These are all critical issues for the spiritual person which can cause much gnashing of teeth, especially when one is young.

DQ: It is interesing that you are here pouring scorn on Jesus, Budhda and wise people in general. Does this mean you are also playing a "control game" as well? Are you also setting up a polarity which attempts to skew the game in your favour?

f: Maybe I'm one of those exposing the Polarity that exists between the God Men and the Breeders...that's what I hope I'm doing and that there's not too much Hubris...perhaps then the rift can be healed..

Certainly, if the breeders were to decide that is it vital to eliminate all delusion from the mind and abandon all attachments, the rift can be healed. I can't see why not.

DQ: How are they resolved? In praising the family ideal, you are presenting an extreme point of view - just as extreme as mine - one that, like mine, completely rejects all opposing views, such as the view that attachments should be abandoned and enlightenment be sought through the mind.

As soon as one values any ideal - whether it be spiritual, familial or otherwise - a polarity is automatically created and all opposing points of view are rejected. It can't be escaped.

f: The fact is 'Nature As it Really Is' causes Humans to breed...it requires our involvement in getting the New Generation up and going...the Breeders are doing Nature's Will if you like...

Whatever happens in life is Nature's will. Whether it be people copulating and making babies, or rejecting family life and becoming wise, it is all Nature's will.

The brain is built to become wise. It naturally thinks in a wise and rational manner, when it isn't clogged up with emotions, fears and mental blocks. So the spiritual life isn't a forced or contrived one, even though it does require us to make certain sacrifices.

In general, people get married and have kids because they are passively following the standard script and haven't enough mental life to question it. Their lives are driven by unconsciousness and short-term selfishness. Indeed, that is usually why families become dysfunctional. The unconscious, self-serving mentality which created the family to begin with soon grows bored with the whole thing and starts seeking other kinds of pleasures, ripping the family apart in the process.

God Men could bring aspects of their Theology...the Wise Bits into Family Life..apply it in that area..
..as opposed to 'fleeing' Family Life...'fleeing to some Ivory Tower which is a denial of Family Life, of Breeding's importance to the 'Family of Man'...
The whole of humanity is my family. To focus my attention on one minsicule subsection of this family, while forgetting the needs of the rest of my family, would be incredibly selfish and short-sighted of me.

In truth, it is the Breeders who are fleeing family life, not wise people.

God Men effectively, like Herod, 'wash their hands' of the matter...step aside and condemn it roundly...where is the Wisdom in that?
It's not going to go away.
What is the use of God Men 'hustling' after Nirvana or Heaven or the Land of Safety in the scheme of things?
Trying to be 'over there' and 'not here'..

Why can't they get their 'noses out of the air'...roll up their sleeves and get cracking about healing dysfunctionality?

The core of all dysfunctionality is egotism and ignorance, which are the very things that wise people tackle directly. So far from having their "noses in the air", wise people have their fingers on the pulse and are at the cutting edge of the healing process. Ridding the world of dsyfunctionality will never be achieved without addressing the problem of mental delusion.

Their advice to the Young to 'Quit Breeding' is a Major Copout.

What do you think of the world's massive over-population problem which is slowly strangling the earth of its resources and could even lead to our species' extinction in the coming decades or centuries? Does this concern you at all?

Also, on the beard thread over at Worldly Matters, you wrote:
It's all very cartoon-like while in the experience of 'empty and meaningless'....stick figures, words inside bubbles....playing biffo, bumpo...

In the experience of 'empty and meaningless' the World appears differently...
It has a 2 Dimensional, Cardboard Cutout kind of thing about it....It's not scary but it is funny...very funny.

When I'm in the experience of 'empty and meaningless'...actually experiencing it...I get the Joke.

When I'm not...when I'm in the 'narrow bandwidth of conciousness' that people share and that is considered 'normal'....the 'normal' wavelength people 'cling' to...to feel like they are 'on the same page'...to 'meet' each other in a way that is 'predictable'...that is like a 'worn groove' in a gramaphone record...that is familiar...where 'Truth' is a game of 'Hide the Parcel'...where it is far too difficult and painful to tell the Truth because the consequences are fearful....

Truly, when I'm in the 'narrow bandwidth of conciousness' that people share to make 'contact'....the Joke is on Me....

Do you look at family life in the same way? Do you, when you are off expanding your awareness, laugh at the cartoon mums and dads who get their cartoon-like pleasures at the thought at being married and having a nice, cartoon-like family? Do you collapse in mirth at these stick people and the two-dimensional nature of it all? Or is this off-limits?

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frank
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Post by frank »

What I don't sympathize with is misogyny.
Me too.
Even a cursory reading of History demonstrates that Men have well and truly had their size 10 boots firmly clamped on the throats of Women (and Children).

That Collectively, Men and Men's Anger with it's implied and actual Violence, it's emotional and verbal violence... has intimated Women and Children.

That Men have reduced Women and Children to cowering.

And the insane hubris of a Man...who drives his 'boot' into the throat of a Woman with his physical and verbal abuse...intimidates her...cowers her.....who then turns to his Male Buddies and declares: 'See how STUPID she is!'

And to call that Act...an Act of Genius.

It's too horrible.

frank
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David Quinn
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Post by David Quinn »

There isn't any misogyny on this board, apart from what the likes of you and suergaz bring with you. Could there be a more misogynistic act than trapping a woman in the emotional bonds of marriage? It's hard to think of one.

I remember suergaz being obsessed with marriage the last time he was here - and still so, it seems. His hatred of women must be immense. He won't feel content until he manages to tie one down completely.

Personally, I'm all for freeing women from their lowly state and helping them become more conscious and wise. My whole life is based around this aim. But its very difficult to accomplish because most men just want keep women down in their place and have them remain frozen in the form of nice, attractive marriage partners. How selfish and hateful is that?

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sschaula
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Post by sschaula »

One could say I'm a misogynist, but I doubt a misogynist would walk into a Coyote Ugly bar and feel pity for the souls of the female dancers/bartenders.

Women are the worst misogynists. Before a man will degrade her, she'll degrade herself. She'll apply face paint, put chemicals in her hair, flatten it with hot metal, put on jeans which accent the place she poops from, wear shirts that are low (as to attract men to her milk sacks), put on torture shoes (aka high heels). Her body is a prison which she constantly adds more bars to.

Men don't help, trying to clinch young women into relationships. We're taught that relationships are the purpose of our lives. Unconsciously, young men try to attain everything and get a girl...for sex or for "love" or for show.

It's always FOR something. A woman to him is a means to an end. Like a bloodthirsty wolf, where the death of his prey is of no consequence to him...a man will court a woman for his own desires. Then she becomes like a ragdoll, being tossed around by a stupid child, playing games with itself.

We, as a world culture, need to stop being taught and learn to start thinking. While it is kind of scary to assume that the human race could end with the onslaught of wisdom (due to people quitting relationships), it's also kind of scary to think about the consequences of maintaining stupidity. We could kill ourselves off, instead. We could end up leading very deprived lives, and we could all become evil and want to hurt eachother. It's possible.

Wisdom and thinking brings goodness to you. Who cares if you don't want to have sex, then! Who cares if relationships end for you! Do you value relationships over what's right?

What does that say about relationships?

Back on track...it's easy to misunderstand the intentions of wisdom. You hear an attack on women, and it seems like the Salem witch trials all over again. Of course we want to prevent that. We also want to prevent ignorance, which most women are comprised of. Turn on the TV and watch. Go out to the mall and see. Make some female friends and learn.

There is some work to be done.
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David Quinn
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Post by David Quinn »

frank,
Even a cursory reading of History demonstrates that Men have well and truly had their size 10 boots firmly clamped on the throats of Women (and Children).

That Collectively, Men and Men's Anger with it's implied and actual Violence, it's emotional and verbal violence... has intimated Women and Children.

That Men have reduced Women and Children to cowering.

And the insane hubris of a Man...who drives his 'boot' into the throat of a Woman with his physical and verbal abuse...intimidates her...cowers her.....who then turns to his Male Buddies and declares: 'See how STUPID she is!'

And to call that Act...an Act of Genius.
I know you were traumatized by your father and that it's had a massive impact on you, but do you really need to link the hate-filled violence of your father with the values and behaviours of this board, even to the point of implying there are people on this board who would call male violence towards women "an act of genius"? Come on, that's just too silly for words.

Sometimes, it seems that you're so immersed in the own hurt-filled soap-opera of your own memories that you don't really perceive what is going on around you. In a way, you're not really interacting with us as such, but with figures in your imagination. We are being forced to wear their clothing and act out their roles in your pantomine. I have to say, it's getting tiresome.

Just so you know, I am not your father. None of us here are your father. Please desist in straight-jacketting us with this.

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frank
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Post by frank »

Me & my ogrish Pa made Peace Dave.
He Mellowed in later years...expressed remorse...a genuine, loving
connection between us appeared...tears were shed...wounds were healed.
But I remember.
And that patriarchal, vicious Male requires confronting still.
Women are the worst misogynists. Before a man will degrade her, she'll degrade herself. She'll apply face paint, put chemicals in her hair, flatten it with hot metal, put on jeans which accent the place she poops from, wear shirts that are low (as to attract men to her milk sacks), put on torture shoes (aka high heels). Her body is a prison which she constantly adds more bars to.

That is a type of Woman that does not represent all Women sschaula...plenty of gals have successfully negotiated the 'Thinking Woman's Minefield'...
Personally, I'm all for freeing women from their lowly state and helping them become more conscious and wise. My whole life is based around this aim. But its very difficult to accomplish because most men just want keep women down in their place and have them remain frozen in the form of nice, attractive marriage partners. How selfish and hateful is that?
It doesn't follow that a Woman needs to renounce her breeding opportunities to be concious and wise...it's only a sub plot of her Life after all..the breeding that is...
Quote:
It's all very cartoon-like while in the experience of 'empty and meaningless'....stick figures, words inside bubbles....playing biffo, bumpo...

In the experience of 'empty and meaningless' the World appears differently...
It has a 2 Dimensional, Cardboard Cutout kind of thing about it....It's not scary but it is funny...very funny.

When I'm in the experience of 'empty and meaningless'...actually experiencing it...I get the Joke.

When I'm not...when I'm in the 'narrow bandwidth of conciousness' that people share and that is considered 'normal'....the 'normal' wavelength people 'cling' to...to feel like they are 'on the same page'...to 'meet' each other in a way that is 'predictable'...that is like a 'worn groove' in a gramaphone record...that is familiar...where 'Truth' is a game of 'Hide the Parcel'...where it is far too difficult and painful to tell the Truth because the consequences are fearful....

Truly, when I'm in the 'narrow bandwidth of conciousness' that people share to make 'contact'....the Joke is on Me....

Do you look at family life in the same way? Do you, when you are off expanding your awareness, laugh at the cartoon mums and dads who get their cartoon-like pleasures at the thought at being married and having a nice, cartoon-like family? Do you collapse in mirth at these stick people and the two-dimensional nature of it all? Or is this off-limits?

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Yes, I do erupt with mirth about it...when I'm experiencing an observation point I refer to as 'empty and meaningless'...

Can we say Dave that there appears to be various of these 'narrow bandwidths' of 'relative consciousness'...Jamesh is lucidly describing this on another thread as subjective realities..you call it altered states.

When I ponder what I experience in 'empty and meaningless'...I can't help but discover that I'm then free to create whatever meaning appeals to me...

That I can then choose a reality to have as an effect in the World...me being a cause point to effect that...

The effect I would like to occur in the World is 'happy, conscious, wise Parents producing emotionally healthy children'..
This would be about education.
And yes it's a dinky cartoony thing but the babes comin' thru' get to have a bit more fun..

I think you are saying the same thing Dave.
That you are choosing a reality you would like as an effect in the World...yourself as a Cause Point.

Perhaps we both value Wisdom similarly but it's in where to apply the Wisdom we clash..

I want to apply Wisdom into the Breeding/Child rearing/Family aspect of Human Activity...where Wisdom is rare.

If I read you correctly your applied Wisdom urges Humans to renounce breeding altogether...that freedom for a Human lies in eradicating any and all emotional/psychological bonds completely

You may well have Absolute Truth at your disposal to express this as you are enlightened but I'm not...I see the more solidly appearing relative reality of conventional conditioning running the show down here...

I want Wise Mechanics to tinker with that as a First Step...as a gradient towards you hitting them with the big banana later on...

I want to reach the even narrower bandwidth of consciousness...the rarely attained bandwidth of consciosness you describe where all philosophical problems are resolved in a blinding, intuitive flash..

There is Work to be done.

frank
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Blair
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Post by Blair »

frank, I think you need conventional counselling first of all.
frank
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Post by frank »

frank, I think you need conventional counselling first of all.
Thanks prince...you are my symbol for the utter futility of existence.
Now you have meaning
Suffer Baby.

frank
sschaula
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Post by sschaula »

I would agree with prince, but I don't think it would help. Sometimes, some people are just too smart for their own good. They think they know everything and actually know nothing at all.

That is a type of Woman that does not represent all Women sschaula...plenty of gals have successfully negotiated the 'Thinking Woman's Minefield'...

There may be women that don't flaunt their assets, but mostly they have the same lack of substance. I have a friend who is very close to having substance, and she throws it away by drinking enormous amounts of coffee and becoming hyper, putting her face in school work as if she were an ostrich to sand, working like there's no other meaning to life other than working, and not having philosophical questions. She is the closest one to truth I've met...so at least where I live, it doesn't look good.

There may be some women who put on the mask of philosophy. It is to them, like makeup. They do it for whatever cause, perhaps they were brought up thinking philosophy makes you a wise person. Maybe their dads were partly philosophers, and they want to mimick him. This is a danger for men, too. The ego takes things on and calls it "myself", and flaunts it, trying to stimulate itself.

What I'm looking for in people is a geniuine interest...a passion...an undying lust for understanding. I think that's what can make a person free. I think everyone has it in them. Denying it is what makes a person into a woman.

When a woman denies her nature (the tendency to cut out the truth from her life) she loses her womanhood. Then she becomes a thinker, instead of just a woman. If she walks around all of the other women she used to be friends with, she realizes how useless they are. They all gobble like turkeys, hoard around chocolate, are manic, try to control everyone and sit on the fence between good and evil, never deciding because they're not mentally strong enough. This thinking woman looks back at these "friends" and realizes that they're just ghosts being controlled by desire and ignorance. She could become very lonely...so no wonder no women seek this out. No wonder it's rare to find a man brave or strong enough to tread this path. You become completely alone.

Yet it's necessary for goodness to spread. It's an important sacrifice to put yourself on the path to enlightenment, rather than choosing to live a greedy life. The moment a person chooses enlightenment, a million sins waiting to happen are burnt up. Everyone around the enlightened one or the seeker becomes a better person for it.

I only wish more women had the balls to seek this. The world would definitely be a better place.
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Post by unwise »

I agree with you Nox. Good thread. History cannot be trusted at all since it is written by people with agendas. Look at current 'history' for a good example of the impossibility of 'facts' in 'history.'

All that we know for sure is our own case and our experience. This tells us that we are similar to animals - compelled by hunger, bad teeth, stomach problems, likes and dislikes. If 'enlightenment' could be had from isolation and contemplation, the prison system would be full of sages. It is all BS.

Hearing someone proclaim himself to be enlightened because he says so is like believing Frank Jones is Napoleon notwithstanding he's in the mental ward.
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Post by Pye »

.

frank, I mean to push thinking at the family structure itself, even in the best-possible scenarios we can imagine. I am meaning to push at drawn-out motherhood and single-image male role modeling and the whole privilege assumed to these long strung-out relationships called [nuclear] family.

.
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Post by Pye »

.

If you want to take on enlightenment and the value-of-it as a subject in itself, you have to translate it all down to the desire to know; to not be ignorant. To stand in the light, so to speak. Any argument you make first against a project of human enlightenment has to be an argument in favour of ignorance. Willful ignorance.

You have existence in front of your face everyday, and every day in it, you take note of people with more or less degrees of awareness. You can do this based upon stuff you see that they don't. And it's perfectly clear to you. So unless you think you know everything there is to know, you have to be able to imagine other things [you can't see ] being perfectly clear to some other people. You have to admit the existence of these degrees, and in both directions.

If you want after Buddhist or QRS or other forms of enlightenment, then you need to work with the details. Otherwise, you have to mount an argument for the general human impulse to stay ignorant; make that look better than awareness and thinking and the valuing of truth over comfort.

.
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Post by frank »

Nietschke, as a student, was down in Basle with Schopenhauer and Schopenhaeur convinced Fred that the World was Godless...that Religion was a lie...a fabrication produced from lust for Power...Fred declared God was Dead...that Metaphysics was over...

Schopenhauer postulated from that, that Life is futile, a 'thing of despair'...that humanity was merely like a 'wind blowing thru' the desert'...that life had no value at all (Nihilism)...

Fred saw that if God (Meaning) was removed...that the Major Projection of 'Daddy in The Sky' was debunked.... and the Nihilism factor replaced it...Chaos would ensue...terror would reign...

Fred went back to Plato and the Greeks and came up with a thing he called the Dionysius Formula...

That we are free to construct our own Meaning.

That we are free to project our own mythology on the World.

That the World is like a Child's Colouring Book and our Mind's, as if the Colour Pencils we Colour it in with...

If you want to project shit onto Women you are free to do that...
If I want to project 'goodness as a possibility' onto Family Life..I'm free to do that...and then a I set about creating 'Good Family Life...

I invent My Meaning.

You invent yours.

As Fred said we are free to Construct our own 'Meaning Mansions'....

As Fred said why, like the Nihilists, construct a 'Mansion of Despair...'

If a chick wants to wear make up...that's her meaning...why beat her up for it?

Meaning is relative...subjective.

It's up to you.

You won't find Absolute Truth.

And the thing about Your Meaning...You are Making it up..

Get the Joke?

frank
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