The Fundamental Unity of Being

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
Dave Toast
Posts: 509
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2003 6:22 pm

Re: The Fundamental Unity of Being

Post by Dave Toast »

mikiel wrote:It is my understanding that entangled quantum particles communicate and respond to the signal "switch spin direction" instantaneously without regard to distance between them. So, in principle, immediate communication at any distance is established by the particles themselves "dancing together."
No it's not. See No-communication theorem.
True, we can not yet "attach a note" of additional info,
Yes we can. See Quantum teleportation.
but lightspeed is no longer the absolute speed limit for info transfer.
Yes it is. Again, see No-communication theorem.
User avatar
Jamesh
Posts: 1526
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:44 pm

Re: The Fundamental Unity of Being

Post by Jamesh »

Light transfers information from one location to another. That it affects things also means that it contains things, it means it contains divisible information.

Light is a caused thing.

That which causes light must also contain information and be faster than the light it causes.

All existence contains information as all existence arises by dualistic relativity. Information is relativity.

Wiki indicates that Information itself may be loosely defined as "that which can distinguish one thing from another". The information embodied by a thing can thus be said to be the identity of the particular thing itself, that is, all of its properties, all that makes it distinct from other (real or potential) things. What this means is that information is fundmental, as each of the two fundamental forces is wholely distinguished from the other.
mikiel
Posts: 588
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:27 am

Re: The Fundamental Unity of Being

Post by mikiel »

Dave Toast wrote:
mikiel wrote:It is my understanding that entangled quantum particles communicate and respond to the signal "switch spin direction" instantaneously without regard to distance between them. So, in principle, immediate communication at any distance is established by the particles themselves "dancing together."
No it's not. See No-communication theorem.

Thanks a big bunch for the "no-communication theorem" key. I've studied quantum theory for many years under a good friend, Dr. Amit Goswami, Prof emeritas of quantum physics at my hometown U of O in Eugene... (I sit in and dialogue by invitation in his classes.)

I'll first quote the Wiki take on your great and wise key words. Then maybe you will explain your own understanding of it. (I'll prompt you with a few pertinent questions.)
---------------

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
In quantum information theory, a no-communication theorem is a result which gives conditions under which instantaneous transfer of information between two observers is impossible. These results can be applied to understand the so-called paradoxes in quantum mechanics such as the EPR paradox or violations of local realism obtained in tests of Bell's theorem. In these experiments, the no-communication theorem shows that failure of local realism does not lead to what could be referred to as "spooky communication at a distance" (in analogy with Einstein's labeling of quantum entanglement as 'spooky action at a distance').

This is a glaring omission ( a snow job based on ignorance, in common parlance) in Wiki. The entangled particles "communication at a distance" is well documented by "real science."
Comments? or are you totally unfamiliar with the well known studies?... and just citing "Wiki" as the ultimate authority/

True, we can not yet "attach a note" of additional info,
Yes we can. See Quantum teleportation.

I "saw" that already. How "can we attach a note" of additional info to the entangled particles which are in communication specifically about their synchronized spin? Or are you just talking bullshit? (Rhetorical question. It is obvious.)

I read all entries in Google under "quantum teleportation.' Here is the first up... Wiki, of course. I challenge you to explain your own understanding of the following. (You can't bluff your way to knowledge with key phrases that anyone can 'Google.')
-------------
Wiki:
"Quantum teleportation or entanglement-assisted teleportation is a quantum protocol by which quantum information can be transmitted utilizing a classical communication channel and an entangled pair of qubits. The sender's original qubit is destroyed in the process, as required by the no cloning theorem. The entangled pair of qubits is also separated.

Quantum teleportation does not transport energy or matter, nor does it allow communication of information at superluminal (faster than light) speed, but is useful for quantum communication and computation."
-------------
This crap has no insight whatsoever into the actual entangled particle experiments in quantum physics. As I said above... give us the benefit of your knowledge, if any, on the subject. Sometimes quoting links is not enough... as above. Or maybe you can clarify the misconceptions in your own words. (or not!)

but lightspeed is no longer the absolute speed limit for info transfer.

Yes it is. Again, see No-communication theorem.


I saw that already, as above. "See" THE BODY OF KNOWLEDGE (literally... not a "key phrase" to "google")..on quantum particle entanglement. It happens instantaneously. Your ignorance is showing. Save yourself the embarrassment and study the field of quantum physics before you try to present yourself as an expert in the field. You are (unknowingly) talking to one. I can only credit my science teacher here, as above.... Famous for his expertise. (see the movie, "What the Bleep...")

Please... your wise commentary is requested here again.
mikiel
Dave Toast
Posts: 509
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2003 6:22 pm

Re: The Fundamental Unity of Being

Post by Dave Toast »

You are truly hilarious.
mikiel
Posts: 588
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:27 am

Re: The Fundamental Unity of Being

Post by mikiel »

Dave Toast wrote:You are truly hilarious.
Thank you. Maybe I've missed my calling as a comedian. I must be a natural, cuz I'm not even trying.

You are truly one of the club here. You "reply" saying nothing and have the conceit to believe you are being witty and profuound.

Truth is you are in over your depth here and you know it. So all you have left is a lame attempt to save face by dim-witted derision. Guess you are emulating your mentor ( I forget which of the three stooges... Dan, I think) who tries to intimidate me by saying I am "laugh-able."
Humor, especially "LOL" is good for one's health.
Here's to your health! Glad to help. Just don't fool yourself. We all know you are not up to the task of a real rebuttal here.

mikiel
Dave Toast
Posts: 509
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2003 6:22 pm

Re: The Fundamental Unity of Being

Post by Dave Toast »

mikiel wrote:Thank you. Maybe I've missed my calling as a comedian. I must be a natural, cuz I'm not even trying.
No shit.

You're so pure full-on clueless that you don't realise how the subtext of your words betrays you, so very blatently. As such, daily you drive more nails into the coffin that puts the lie to your ultra-bogus claims.
You are truly one of the club here. You "reply" saying nothing and have the conceit to believe you are being witty and profuound.
Tarring the world with your own brush, for a change.

Only you could consider the phrase "You're truly hilarious" as coming from someone thinking themselves witty and profound.
Truth is you are in over your depth here and you know it. So all you have left is a lame attempt to save face by dim-witted derision. Guess you are emulating your mentor ( I forget which of the three stooges... Dan, I think) who tries to intimidate me by saying I am "laugh-able."
Yep, it's all about you, and your paranoid delusions.
Humor, especially "LOL" is good for one's health.
Here's to your health! Glad to help. Just don't fool yourself. We all know you are not up to the task of a real rebuttal here.
Oh noes, reverse psychology.

I guess you'll never know eh. Based on the fact that you've yet to work out how to use quote tags in almost 8 months here (not to mention your not even beginning to work out the philosophies or people here), I can't imagine you'll pull off the highly complex task of searching the forum for posts about a particular subject by a particular board member.

Perish the thought that you actually engage your brain before your fingers.
mikiel
Posts: 588
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:27 am

Re: The Fundamental Unity of Being

Post by mikiel »

DT,
Like I said, we all know you are not up to the task of a real rebuttal here. You've just confirmed it in spades.

The technical details of QM require actual study. You raised bullshit objections to the details I posted. I challenged you to back them up. You cited a couple of Wiki snowjobs with no attempt to explain in your own words.

Much easier to just sling shit. Fits the MO here to a tee, tho. Good boy.
And your criticism of my lack of technical expertise is as lame as it gets. It's not high on my proirity list, and I prefer to target the exact quotes of my focus without the baggage of nicely boxed quotes containing context beyond my intended focus. Such petty bullshit. Get over it!
Betcha don't like my writing style or maverick grammer and punctuation either. That really hurts!

As to the "QSR philosophy"... These guys constantly hide behind name calling and refuse to engage in actual debate... just like you.

mikiel
Last edited by mikiel on Mon May 26, 2008 5:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
mikiel
Posts: 588
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:27 am

Re: The Fundamental Unity of Being

Post by mikiel »

To back up a little... to the actual subject at hand here,
Jehu said:
---------------
"I have already defined what it is to be an absolute entity: “that which is possessed of its own intrinsic causes”, but as to an example, this will be difficult to do, as we have yet to demonstrate that there is such an entity. Thus far in our enquiry, we are still investigating the possibility that there exists such an entity, and what its essential characteristics would be."
----------------
Jehu,
Leaving aside for now the question of "Kosmos" the One Absolute Consciousness...
Do you *not* consider the whole cosmos, (all there is) without beginning or end, an entity "possessed of its own intrinsic causes?”

mikiel
User avatar
Jehu
Posts: 554
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:08 am

Re: The Fundamental Unity of Being

Post by Jehu »

mikiel wrote:Jehu,
Leaving aside for now the question of "Kosmos" the One Absolute Consciousness...
Do you *not* consider the whole cosmos, (all there is) without beginning or end, an entity "possessed of its own intrinsic causes?”

mikiel
It is logically certain that there exists but one absolute entity (Being), and that all relative entities (beings) abide within this one absolute entity. Further, it follows that the nature of this absolute entity is cognizant (intelligent), and that it comprises two interdependent and complementary aspects: awareness and knowledge; the former partaking of a necessary and immutable existence, the latter being merely contingent and therefore, subject to continuous alteration.
mikiel
Posts: 588
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:27 am

Re: The Fundamental Unity of Being

Post by mikiel »

Jehu wrote:
mikiel wrote:Jehu,
Leaving aside for now the question of "Kosmos" the One Absolute Consciousness...
Do you *not* consider the whole cosmos, (all there is) without beginning or end, an entity "possessed of its own intrinsic causes?”

mikiel
It is logically certain that there exists but one absolute entity (Being), and that all relative entities (beings) abide within this one absolute entity. Further, it follows that the nature of this absolute entity is cognizant (intelligent), and that it comprises two interdependent and complementary aspects: awareness and knowledge; the former partaking of a necessary and immutable existence, the latter being merely contingent and therefore, subject to continuous alteration.
I agree fully with the above, but I thought you wer the one who didn't want to posit this absolute entity/Being prior to a step-by-step logical approach.
Fine by me. I know "God" gnostically through my life as a mystic, and there is no "proof of God" by common definitions of proof. Science and most philosophy scoff at "God" as mere myth and religious belief.
I don't think you offered any logical "proof" of this Absolute Being in this thread. But I offered this gnosis right up front, which you rejected as not fullfilling the "logical approach" requirements.

I'll re-read your posts above to see if I missed something, but at this point, I don't see your logic as having established the truth of the One Absolute Being.

mikiel
Iolaus
Posts: 1033
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:14 pm

Re: The Fundamental Unity of Being

Post by Iolaus »

Brokenhead,
Actually, that was brokenhead who said that. And indeed I agree that information is not primal. Logically information requires at least two other things, as I see it, an informer and an informed. Lacking either would make it data instead. But maybe that's being too semantically anal.
Oh, yes, I knew it was Brokenhead who said it, don't know why I put the wrong name.

Yes, it is too semantic, because what I am seeking is beneath whether or not the information has a receiver or is mere data. Actually, I don't see why we need an informer and an informed. The data itself is the informer.

Jehu,
But what possible meaning could we attribute to the term “red”, if everything was possessed of this one characteristic, for such a characteristic would then be universal, and thus would be of no use whatsoever in differentiating one thing from another.
I do understand that. I was trying to point out that red and not red are interdependent and complementary in the world of things, but if all was one universal substance there would indeed be no way to assign such names. However, perhaps it is not an important point.
A relative entity does not exist in-and-of-itself, but in the “relationship” between other things (its parts): its constitutive causes (essence); and in the absence of these “other things” the relative entity has no existence whatsoever. In other words, a relative entity is not a true entity, but merely the appearance of such.
It seems to me that this is true insofar as meaning, but not necessarily so far as existence of the matter itself. If there were a teacup and nothing else in existence, there would no name, or meaning, or any such thing. But wouldn't it still have inherent existence?
If the relative mode of being is merely apparent, then there must be another mode of being which is cognizant (aware), and the relative world must abide within the sphere of this cognizant awareness - which is real. Is this not a reasonable assumption?
Well, I happen to think that is true, but I am not sure where we proved that there has to be cognizance.

Mikiel says you have not offered logical proof of an absolute being. It seems that perhaps you have, you just have not established that it is aware or conscious. While I appreciate the effort to go through step by step, like Mikiel I am finding myself wanting to go back over covered ground to refresh my memory as to how I've been lead this far down the garden path...

Have you ever laid this out in an essay form, like a page or two, without the discussion aspect?
Truth is a pathless land.
Steven Coyle

Re: The Fundamental Unity of Being

Post by Steven Coyle »

Non-locality theory - Bang! Atoms scatter. Spreading outwards... separating and expanding through spacetime.

As the theory of non-locality holds, that is... if once atoms come in contact with one another, they remain in contact, across infinite space and time... then the possibility of atoms in the present location, still affecting the time of ancient China... is a real potential.
Steven Coyle

Re: The Fundamental Unity of Being

Post by Steven Coyle »

Dave Toast wrote:
mikiel wrote:It is my understanding that entangled quantum particles communicate and respond to the signal "switch spin direction" instantaneously without regard to distance between them. So, in principle, immediate communication at any distance is established by the particles themselves "dancing together."
No it's not. See No-communication theorem.
True, we can not yet "attach a note" of additional info,
Yes we can. See Quantum teleportation.
but lightspeed is no longer the absolute speed limit for info transfer.
Yes it is. Again, see No-communication theorem.
^ This lingo rings especially ironic...

- to + spin! + to - spin! - to + spin!

;-)
User avatar
tek0
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:31 pm

Re: The Fundamental Unity of Being

Post by tek0 »

Bat shit insane as it may sound I was alerted to the destruction of certain property the very night it was destroyed through a dream.

So I cannot deny such occurences concerning certain things being linked.


Blew my mind and it will almost certainly recieve no more than a scoff from those who have never exprerienced such in a dream or other state.
User avatar
tek0
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:31 pm

Re: The Fundamental Unity of Being

Post by tek0 »

if you really want to explore your dreams try some doxycycline.

I must warn you it is for malaria prevention and treatment not including the follow up.

Assuming you are not in a high risk area you can take this under some limited supervision and your already lucid dreams with shoot through your brain pan.


I admit that there are better options for experiencing dreams that will shed some light for you on existence.

However this particular drug is able to make your experience so lucid you tend to forget you are in a dream.



I do that schtuffs without these drugs always have and seem to have a knack for basic precog.

Strange seeing our reality through it but you soon realize that it is nothing new and the game theory has a tough time rationalizing all our behavior instinctual or not.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sgwnurt ... re=related
Steven Coyle

Re: The Fundamental Unity of Being

Post by Steven Coyle »

tek0 wrote:Bat shit insane as it may sound I was alerted to the destruction of certain property the very night it was destroyed through a dream.

So I cannot deny such occurences concerning certain things being linked.

Blew my mind and it will almost certainly recieve no more than a scoff from those who have never exprerienced such in a dream or other state.
Nah, that's pretty common over here. In fact, I've built through meditation a fairly active psyonic gland... enabling tomorrow to read out behind closed eyes (prior to sleep via imagery), the tonight before... In essence, opening up the mind to the inner spacetime continuum.
User avatar
Jehu
Posts: 554
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:08 am

Re: The Fundamental Unity of Being

Post by Jehu »

Iolaus wrote:It seems to me that this is true insofar as meaning, but not necessarily so far as existence of the matter itself. If there were a teacup and nothing else in existence, there would no name, or meaning, or any such thing. But wouldn't it still have inherent existence?
It is not possible that there could be a teacup and nothing else in existence, for a teacup, like all things, exists as a result of the coming together of other pre-existent things: its constitutive causes; not to mention an operative cause, whereby those constituents were rendered into the form of a teacup.

Perhaps I could say something more on the notion of the relative entity, for it a widely misunderstood concept. A relative entity is merely the appearance of an entity, just as a shadow of a man is only the appearance of a man. Like a shadow, a relative entity arises and persists as a result of extrinsic causes, and exists as an entity, only in the mind of a cognizant subject. This is the truth that Plato alludes to in his Analogy of the Cave. A bicycle, for example, consists in its parts; wheels, frame, peddles, etc., but none of these is itself a bicycle. Neither is a bicycle present simply because all of its essential parts are present, but only when those parts are properly assembled in the appropriate configuration. So you see, it is in the relationship between its constitutive causes that a relative entity exists, and not in itself.
Iolaus wrote:
If the relative mode of being is merely apparent, then there must be another mode of being which is cognizant (aware), and the relative world must abide within the sphere of this cognizant awareness - which is real. Is this not a reasonable assumption?
Well, I happen to think that is true, but I am not sure where we proved that there has to be cognizance.

Mikiel says you have not offered logical proof of an absolute being. It seems that perhaps you have, you just have not established that it is aware or conscious. While I appreciate the effort to go through step by step, like Mikiel I am finding myself wanting to go back over covered ground to refresh my memory as to how I've been lead this far down the garden path...
It is very important that we proceed in such a systematic manner, for everyone does not possess the same capacity to understand the concepts that are entailed, and so it is necessary that I tailor my explanation to the individual. Then, once a concept is fully grasped, we may move to the next level, and in this way, there is no need to continually go back to the beginning. For example, you seem to think that I have provided sufficient proof as to the existence of an absolute entity, whereas Mikiel thinks I have not; even though you have both read precisely the same explanations.

As to the proof that the absolute entity is essentially cognizant, the reasoning is as follows: Given that there are only the two modes of being (absolute and relative), and given that these two modes are interdependent and complementary, it follows that if the one mode (the absolute) is ‘real’ (a true entity), the other mode (the relative) must be ‘not real’ (an apparent entity); and so it follows that the absolute entity must be essentially cognizant, for otherwise there would be no cognizant subject to which the relative entity might appear.
Iolaus
Posts: 1033
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:14 pm

Re: The Fundamental Unity of Being

Post by Iolaus »

Jehu

OK, I follow you about the relative entity. Altho, as it pertains to the doctrine of no-self, I have some problems with that idea, especially if the situation is as you say, wherein the absolute and the relative are mutually dependent upon one another. This would mean that there is something about myself that partakes of the absolute and the real.
It is very important that we proceed in such a systematic manner, for everyone does not possess the same capacity to understand the concepts that are entailed, and so it is necessary that I tailor my explanation to the individual. Then, once a concept is fully grasped, we may move to the next level, and in this way, there is no need to continually go back to the beginning. For example, you seem to think that I have provided sufficient proof as to the existence of an absolute entity, whereas Mikiel thinks I have not; even though you have both read precisely the same explanations.
I certainly don't think in Mikiel's case that he lacks the capacity to follow these ideas. That is why I mentioned a more concise presentation. I think the time lag may be a bit of a problem.

As for me, I have not yet seen that the relative and the absolute are mutually dependent upon one another for existence.
Given that there are only the two modes of being (absolute and relative), and given that these two modes are interdependent and complementary, it follows that if the one mode (the absolute) is ‘real’ (a true entity), the other mode (the relative) must be ‘not real’ (an apparent entity); and so it follows that the absolute entity must be essentially cognizant, for otherwise there would be no cognizant subject to which the relative entity might appear.
Oh, dear, this doesn't seem very tight to me. So I have all my parts together and am now a person, and awareness is one of my many functions. A bicycle has brakes and several other functional parts that work, a brain has consciousness that works. A lot of people are comfortable with there being no overarching intelligence, and cognizance is a brain function, a result, a function like any other.
Truth is a pathless land.
User avatar
Jehu
Posts: 554
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:08 am

Re: The Fundamental Unity of Being

Post by Jehu »

Iolaus wrote:OK, I follow you about the relative entity. Altho, as it pertains to the doctrine of no-self, I have some problems with that idea, especially if the situation is as you say, wherein the absolute and the relative are mutually dependent upon one another. This would mean that there is something about myself that partakes of the absolute and the real.
Yes, that would necessarily follow.
Iolaus wrote:I certainly don't think in Mikiel's case that he lacks the capacity to follow these ideas. That is why I mentioned a more concise presentation. I think the time lag may be a bit of a problem.
Please, I do not mean to imply that one person is any less intelligent than another, I simply mean that one explanation might be well suited to the needs of one, but may not suffice for another.
Iolaus wrote:As for me, I have not yet seen that the relative and the absolute are mutually dependent upon one another for existence.
Perhaps the following analogy might help. Since Being is fundamental indivisible - there being no non-being that might partition it, the specification of any differentiating characteristic will effectively divide (intellectually) Being into two sets: that which is possessed of the specified characteristic, and that which is not possessed of it. Now, imagine that Being were a balloon, and like a carnival magician you were to twist that balloon in such a way as to give the illusion that there were two separate balloons. Of the total volume of the original balloon, whatever portion is not present in one of the apparent balloons, must be present in the other; and so the two volumes are complementary, for they complete one another in the original volume. Then, if you were to squeeze one of the apparent balloons so as to cause some of its volume to be expelled, the volume of its complement must increase by the exact same amount, and so the two may be said to be interdependent (not separate) – for whatever change takes place in the one is immediately reflected in the other.
Iolaus wrote:Oh, dear, this doesn't seem very tight to me. So I have all my parts together and am now a person, and awareness is one of my many functions. A bicycle has brakes and several other functional parts that work, a brain has consciousness that works. A lot of people are comfortable with there being no overarching intelligence, and cognizance is a brain function, a result, a function like any other.
That awareness is a function of the sentient brain is merely an empirical inference, it has never been logically demonstrated to be the case.
User avatar
Jamesh
Posts: 1526
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:44 pm

Re: The Fundamental Unity of Being

Post by Jamesh »

That awareness is a function of the sentient brain is merely an empirical inference, it has never been logically demonstrated to be the case.
If I was to pump you full of various drugs, you'd have a different opinion, god lover.
Iolaus
Posts: 1033
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:14 pm

Re: The Fundamental Unity of Being

Post by Iolaus »

Jamesh,
If I was to pump you full of various drugs, you'd have a different opinion, god lover.
Jimhaz!

You ole curmudgeon! I just figured out who you are the other day and I added a bit to a post in your honor: (from the causality thread)
Me: But don't you see that there is a difference between believing that one has a free will, versus thinking that whatsoever you decide to do is the right thing?

One is a path of service to self, with might making right. The other is actually neutral, but allows for either path; just to please James Hayes I will call them the paths of contraction (personal power and dominance) versus the path of expansion (an expended sense of self to include everyone).
[/quote]

Oh, and by the way, I disagree with what you said.
Truth is a pathless land.
Iolaus
Posts: 1033
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:14 pm

Re: The Fundamental Unity of Being

Post by Iolaus »

Jehu,

OK, so if there are not two separate balloons, then are you saying that everything is real?

No, no, I need to understand in what way the absolute depends on the relative for its existence. What Divine Focus said (I think it was him/her) might be right. First, you have this absolute entity, perhaps consciousness, and out of it arises a universe. How does your philosophy compare to this:

The Tao begot one.
One begot two.
Two begot three.
And three begot the ten thousand things.
for whatever change takes place in the one is immediately reflected in the other.
How so?
That awareness is a function of the sentient brain is merely an empirical inference, it has never been logically demonstrated to be the case.
Sure, but where are the logical steps to demonstrate the primacy of cognizance, and that the absolute must be a cognizant entity?
Truth is a pathless land.
User avatar
Jehu
Posts: 554
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:08 am

Re: The Fundamental Unity of Being

Post by Jehu »

Jamesh wrote:
That awareness is a function of the sentient brain is merely an empirical inference, it has never been logically demonstrated to be the case.
If I was to pump you full of various drugs, you'd have a different opinion, god lover.
That the point in question has never been logically demonstrated is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact, and whether or not I believed it is neither here nor there. Further, I am a lover of truth, and have never made any reference to a “god” – whatever you might mean by that term.
User avatar
Jehu
Posts: 554
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:08 am

Re: The Fundamental Unity of Being

Post by Jehu »

Iolaus wrote:OK, so if there are not two separate balloons, then are you saying that everything is real?
On the contrary, I am saying that there is nothing that is real. However, given that a thing cannot arise without that it has a cause, nor can it arise from a cause that is itself not real (relative); it follows that, associated with the appearance of a thing, there must be that which is real (absolute) – which is the true origin and cause of the thing.
Iolaus wrote:No, no, I need to understand in what way the absolute depends on the relative for its existence.
The absolute is dependent upon the relative in just the same way that awareness is dependent upon its objects (knowledge); for to be aware, is to be aware of something (object); that is to say, an idea, a feeling, an object, a property or an activity.
Iolaus wrote:What Divine Focus said (I think it was him/her) might be right. First, you have this absolute entity, perhaps consciousness, and out of it arises a universe. How does your philosophy compare to this:

The Tao begot one.
One begot two.
Two begot three.
And three begot the ten thousand things.
I do not believe that Lao Tzu would find any fault with the doctrine that I am expounding, however, I would prefer to keep our enquiry firmly in the realm of philosophy – at least until we have established a solid logical foundation. However, I would be happy to return to this question a little later, as I am a great admirer of Master Lao.
Iolaus wrote:
for whatever change takes place in the one is immediately reflected in the other.
How so?
Let’s say that we were to partition the whole of Being into that which is ‘actual’ (objective) and that which is only ‘imaginary’ (subjective). Then, let’s say that we manage to actualize something which was previously only imagined (e.g., the invention of the computer); in actualizing the thing, the thing then moves from the realm of the imaginary into the realm of the actual, for it cannot occupy two complementary realms simultaneously [law of contradiction]. Likewise, if a thing were to cease to be actual (e.g., the extinction of particular species), that thing would then cease to exist in the realm of the actual, and continue to exist only in the realm of the imagination. Therefore, it may be asserted that whenever we alter the content of any one such partition, the result is an immediate alteration in the content of the complementary partition.
Iolaus wrote:
That awareness is a function of the sentient brain is merely an empirical inference, it has never been logically demonstrated to be the case.
Sure, but where are the logical steps to demonstrate the primacy of cognizance, and that the absolute must be a cognizant entity?
If one accepts that there are but two possible modes of existence, and one must if one is not to violate the law of excluded middle; and if one accepts that the relative (contingent) mode of being is not real, but merely apparent, then it follows that there must exist that wherein the relative mode is made manifest (appears), and that this encompassing existent must be the absolute mode – there being none other. In other words, although everything that we perceive, be it through the senses or through our own imaginations, may be pure deception; it still follows that there must be (exist) that which is deceived; and this existent must be real, for that cannot be deceived which is itself only an illusion.
Iolaus
Posts: 1033
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:14 pm

Re: The Fundamental Unity of Being

Post by Iolaus »

Jehu,

Oh, dear! Things went so much more smoothly at the beginning.
On the contrary, I am saying that there is nothing that is real. However, given that a thing cannot arise without that it has a cause, nor can it arise from a cause that is itself not real (relative); it follows that, associated with the appearance of a thing, there must be that which is real (absolute) – which is the true origin and cause of the thing.
OK, I had said that all things are real because you described them as inextricably bound up with the absolute. Now, it certainly appears to me that all contingent things are arising out of prior contingent things, and that these unreal entities do indeed cause the next set, like a kaleidoscope. In what way is the real the cause of a bicycle? or, for that matter, a rainstorm?
The absolute is dependent upon the relative in just the same way that awareness is dependent upon its objects (knowledge); for to be aware, is to be aware of something (object); that is to say, an idea, a feeling, an object, a property or an activity.
I admit it seems a bit dull for consciousness to have nothing to perceive or ponder. Rather like deep sleep, which we only know about afterwards. But isn't it possible? Isn't there a deeper mystery than consciousness? Existence itself?
Let’s say that we were to partition the whole of Being into that which is ‘actual’ (objective) and that which is only ‘imaginary’ (subjective). Then, let’s say that we manage to actualize something which was previously only imagined (e.g., the invention of the computer); in actualizing the thing, the thing then moves from the realm of the imaginary into the realm of the actual, for it cannot occupy two complementary realms simultaneously [law of contradiction]. Likewise, if a thing were to cease to be actual (e.g., the extinction of particular species), that thing would then cease to exist in the realm of the actual, and continue to exist only in the realm of the imagination. Therefore, it may be asserted that whenever we alter the content of any one such partition, the result is an immediate alteration in the content of the complementary partition.
Your analogies are excellent but I am having some trouble relating it to the absolute and the relative.
for that cannot be deceived which is itself only an illusion.
Are you saying that I am real?

I do toy with that possibility.
Truth is a pathless land.
Locked