GENIUS FORUMS

Do you get this feeling? Everything I see amazes me. Just look at all the music out there and the beautiful Negroes, Europeans and Japs producing it. You know what? I need all these races and rap music and R & B and jazz and classical just to begin to express my infinite creativity. It is all god. It is all me. Do you see it this way? Don't you see that they are expressing your hidden character? Do you really think the wrestling champ is not you? Really?

All these infinite worlds are mine. Who am I? Turn on the TV, go downtown, look at the crazy Joos in Israel, my brother Osama.....Zidadat Zidane with his head butt. Lance Armstrong. It is all me.

This is my bliss. Can you dig it?

unwise wrote:Do you get this feeling? Everything I see amazes me. Just look at all the music out there and the beautiful Negroes, Europeans and Japs producing it. You know what? I need all these races and rap music and R & B and jazz and classical just to begin to express my infinite creativity. It is all god. It is all me. Do you see it this way? Don't you see that they are expressing your hidden character? Do you really think the wrestling champ is not you? Really?

All these infinite worlds are mine. Who am I? Turn on the TV, go downtown, look at the crazy Joos in Israel, my brother Osama.....Zidadat Zidane with his head butt. Lance Armstrong. It is all me.

This is my bliss. Can you dig it?

ABSOLUTELY!!! But please slow down. There are always things 'on the other hand' so to speak, to be considered, at the same time.

Unwise, in a way you are forcing me to actually communicate certain things that may be understood or have the logic to be accepted only by you, for the difference is that you might have had a strawberry, and me a blueberry, hence the tastes might be quite close, and hence acceptably understood, but those that have never tasted a berry at all, cannot understand the taste I would explain, nor is it actually possible for me to explain any particular taste in its fullness unless someone else has tried the same fruit, in which case no explanation would be needed.

Your state, as I understand, is because of one such experience that has changed your perspective of how you see existence, but that change is not a “super-natural” one at all, nor that event. The way you think is because you have interpreted your experience, through logical justification of course, and hence you see existence differently. So have I, but certain of my experiences have taken me kind of beyond of what you have had a single experience of, and made me think even further, removing all kinds of ‘faith-based’ beliefs because I began with absolutely no ‘faith-based’ beliefs in the first place, and that was actually quite difficult in the first place.

Let me know if you want to discuss as to how and why such things happen, may be we could learn more about each other. However, I wouldn’t expect anyone else to accept what would be said, but that does not actually or really matter.

And yes, we live in our own bubble of existence.

Unwise,

It's easy to say "I'm enlightened", but it's hard to be enlightened. You can come up with new ways of saying it, to make it seem like you've actually attained it...but to me you haven't yet attained it.

If you continue to insist that you have, then that's what you've attained. Congratulations. But what you have I wouldn't wish for.

Spreading it around for the sake of being accepted isn't good, either. You are a "hungry ghost", dying for a little taste of ego gratification. Yet when you get it, it doesn't satisfy you. You are so hungry for being accepted that when you are accepted you want more. At least this is how you seem to me.

You can fool people by forgetting about that and talking about enlightenment, but that's only because it's hard for people to know what enlightenment is. It takes some treading the path first, and most people don't know how to do that.

Yet if you haven't attained enlightenment and talk about it as if you are, it's like you've stepped off the path altogether. Sure, there are nice states of mind before enlightenment. There are blissful and powerful states, but they're traps. You haven't even gotten that far, though!

You can say "I'm enlightened!" any way you so desire, but it doesn't change the fact that some people can see that you aren't. I'm telling you this for your own good, since you're obviously interested in enlightenment. Stop misleading people.

Scott, Wow!

With all due respects, you are neither the initiator of this board, nor the moderator, but of course you have the right to voice your objections if it hurts your logical understandings, but you have no right to tell any one not to speak freely, just as you do. But if it really hurts, close your ears. Or e-mail Dan and ask his opinion, who is the host of this home.

Since when have you taken on the responsibility to protect people from being misled?

If that is your beef my friend, then there are thousands of Churches, Mosques, Temples, Synagogues, even Buddhist, Taoist and Zen monasteries, why don’t you try any one of them and stop people from being mislead, save the one “religion” that you think is totally and logically correct, if you find one. In any case, there are billions to be saved, and most of them are not here, so what are you actually doing here? How many do you think even read this forum?

Do not underestimate any mind, and leave causality alone, not that you could do any thing about it, though, from the little that you think you understand of it.

You cannot even phantom what Unwise has experienced. Why can’t you even be tolerant enough to give him the benefit of doubt? Why the pride? Do you claim to be “enlightened”? A “Buddha”? In that case I would humbly say, good for you, now shove it! (with a smile, of course) :)

I hope I haven’t hurt your feelings, and hope you think about it and repair your Genius attitude from now on.

Sapius,

Scott, Wow!

With all due respects, you are neither the initiator of this board, nor the moderator, but of course you have the right to voice your objections if it hurts your logical understandings, but you have no right to tell any one not to speak freely, just as you do. But if it really hurts, close your ears. Or e-mail Dan and ask his opinion, who is the host of this home.

If we as posters have no right to tell anyone how to speak, then why are you doing just that? Why are you telling me to "close my ears" now? Don't I have just as much of a right to post my opinion as Unwise does?

I may be repetitive. I may be malicious. I may be annoying. I may be stupid...but according to you, I have a right to be all of those things. Also, according to you, I have a right to not be told to shut up.

So why are you telling me to shut up?

Since when have you taken on the responsibility to protect people from being misled?

I haven't sworn a blood oath to enlighten everyone before myself, or anything. I'm not some enraged Bodhisattva. I'm not some Kalki. I'm not a messiah.

But when I know the way to enlightenment, and see someone who is not advanced telling people about it in a wrong way, of course I'll speak up. What's wrong with that? It'd be the same if we were in Math class and he was saying 1+1 doesn't equal 2. I'd stand up and tell him he's stupid.

If that is your beef my friend, then there are thousands of Churches, Mosques, Temples, Synagogues, even Buddhist, Taoist and Zen monasteries, why don’t you try any one of them and stop people from being mislead, save the one “religion” that you think is totally and logically correct, if you find one. In any case, there are billions to be saved, and most of them are not here, so what are you actually doing here? How many do you think even read this forum?

I come to this forum, so here is where I talk about the truth. If I end up going to one of those other places, I'm sure that I'll talk about the truth there too. Why are you suggesting I leave this place and go to those places?

Do your feelings hurt when you read what I say? Are you trying to say that no one here wants enlightenment, so that I should go somewhere where people do want that?

Since I'm at this forum and there's ignorance, why should I leave it and seek ignorance elsewhere to dispel. It's right in front of me! I'm a lazy guy, so it just seems sensible to do my work here.

Do not underestimate any mind, and leave causality alone, not that you could do any thing about it, though, from the little that you think you understand of it.

There's no underestimation here. Unwise is unenlightened, plain and simple. Underestimation would mean that he is enlightened and that I'm wrong about him.

How could I possibly leave causality alone when I'm inextricably a part of it? Haha! And you assume that you're in a position to judge who understands the concept or not?

You cannot even phantom what Unwise has experienced.

Fathom? Of course I can't know what he's experienced, but I can spot an enlightened person. He just isn't one. He may have had some crazy experiences...but that isn't enlightenment at all. So if he's had those experiences, then good, he should talk about that. He shouldn't go around saying "I'm enlightened!"

Not only is it disrespectful, but it's damaging to everyone.

Why can’t you even be tolerant enough to give him the benefit of doubt?

You want me to have a leap of faith? What would the point of that be?

Why the pride?

It's prideful to say "sorry buddy, but you aren't there yet"? I'd say that's more helpful than prideful. But if it's prideful then so be it!

Maybe you think my confidence in my understanding is prideful. Well, if a philosopher isn't confident then his philosophy is probably not going to hold up. Watch out when you listen to people like that. Also watch out for people like Unwise, who pretend to be confident when they really aren't.

True confidence in truth comes from true understanding of truth. It's good to truly be confident!

Do you claim to be “enlightened”? A “Buddha”?

No. Numerous times I've said I'm not enlightened.

I hope I haven’t hurt your feelings, and hope you think about it and repair your Genius attitude from now on.

Well I was kind of shocked that you were so shocked at my reply to Unwise...but my feelings aren't damaged. I don't see any good reason to change my attitude. I thought this last post of mine was the nicest one I've ever typed out to Unwise. It was polite. I didn't use words like "moron" or anything. I just said it how it is in the nicest way I could.

Frank... there... you have tons of material above... :)

Scott… :)

Unwsie.... shall we?

Sapius wrote:You cannot even phantom what Unwise has experienced. Why can’t you even be tolerant enough to give him the benefit of doubt? Why the pride? Do you claim to be “enlightened”? A “Buddha”? In that case I would humbly say, good for you, now shove it! (with a smile, of course) :)

When it comes to enlightenment, no one gets the benefit of the doubt. It is an extraordinary claim, and demands extraordinary evidence in order to be taken seriously.

That's all I can say on it, since I am not even sure if there is such a thing or not, or exactly what it is.

unwise wrote:Do you get this feeling? Everything I see amazes me. Just look at all the music out there and the beautiful Negroes, Europeans and Japs producing it. You know what? I need all these races and rap music and R & B and jazz and classical just to begin to express my infinite creativity. It is all god. It is all me. Do you see it this way? Don't you see that they are expressing your hidden character? Do you really think the wrestling champ is not you? Really?

You sound like a little kid in a toy store, amazed and overwhelmed by all the things that can bring you so much happiness. Any enlightened person is neither amazed or in awe of worldly things, nor does he seek happiness in them. He especially doesn't NEED anything aside from himself to express his infinite creativity.

unwise wrote:All these infinite worlds are mine. Who am I? Turn on the TV, go downtown, look at the crazy Joos in Israel, my brother Osama.....Zidadat Zidane with his head butt. Lance Armstrong. It is all me.

Considering there is no self, and you claim all these things are YOU, it is probably one of the most egotistical things I've ever heard.

unwise wrote:This is my bliss. Can you dig it?

Yes I agree, ignorance is bliss for the unwise. For the wise ignorance is a wall to be torn down in order to truly see Ultimate Reality in all its infinite glory.

scott:

It's easy to say "I'm enlightened", but it's hard to be enlightened. You can come up with new ways of saying it, to make it seem like you've actually attained it...but to me you haven't yet attained it.

Enlightenment as a concept born in Eastern Philosophy means...

...freedom from suffering...

What do you think it means?

frank

Nick:

For the wise ignorance is a wall to be torn down in order to truly see Ultimate Reality in all its infinite glory.

Many of the greatest thinkers have declared that 'Ultimate Reality' is 'something' we can only gesture at...point to...indicate..

...a substratum of metaphysics that defies description by conventional language means...

...a chain of causation is about it for them...and as Quinn remarked one day...even cause and effect gets abandoned at some point...only useful as an indicator to get one to a point where it too gets abandoned...

The Zen Masters say...

'We have nothing to say...Zen is a 'yellow leaf' we give to the child, hungry for Gold...

So, you've torn down 'the wall' Nick...
Pray tell...what do you see?

frank

You begin to see why Jesus got the nail treatment and Socrates got the hemlock smoothie. -- At the hand of religious zealots who KNOW better and assume the condemned is possessed. The charge is always the same - blaspheme.

Nick shouted:

But when I know the way to enlightenment,

This is one of the silliest comments I've seen. If you know the way to a treasure, would you not soon pick it up? If you are on the correct path, when do you reckon you will become enlightened? Check your GPS.

Enlightenment cannot even be described with language. Its path is a mystery because one does not even know he is on a path at all. It's effects are paradoxical. His words are contradictory and offensive to human logic. But YOU are sure of its path and goal like a Mormon missionary or Southern Baptist or Jehovah Witness with his packet of Watchtower magazines.....or like an Islamist bomb-thrower is sure of his path and goal.

My words are not ego - they are words of encouragement, good news......the gospel. The fool became wise! This is the good news of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Nemotode wrote,

Enlightenment cannot even be described with language.

And yet, here we are...

It's effects are paradoxical.

To some.

The answer to everything of deep cosmic import is: 'yes and no.' And so, the answer to some of the questions that are discussed here are as follows:

Is there a self? Yes and no.

Is there free will? Yes and no.

Is there a god? Yes and no.

Is the world real? Yes and no.

etc.

Frank asked me,

Enlightenment as a concept born in Eastern Philosophy means...

...freedom from suffering...

What do you think it means?

That isn't all it means, but it's one part of enlightenment. Yes, even in Eastern Philosophy.

In Buddhism there is the concept of Nibbana; it means "cessation". This is a cessation of delusion. When delusion is gone, so is selfhood. When selfhood is gone, there's no suffering. In fact, one of the four noble truths state that suffering is a fact of life. In order to stop suffering, things that cause your delusion need to be removed. Buddhists do this by first attaining a glimpse of the enlightened state through meditative means, and then by erradicating whatever internal forces caused them to come back from that glimpse also by meditative means.

Of course that's the Theraveda Buddhist version. There are hundreds of versions...but there's only one enlightenment, and only one path. Even here at this forum, when enlightenment is talked about, it's the same enlightenment that anyone in the world attains. There's not any other kind.

Not suffering. Not delusion. Not self. Not dual...etc.

Unwise said to Nick,

This is one of the silliest comments I've seen. If you know the way to a treasure, would you not soon pick it up? If you are on the correct path, when do you reckon you will become enlightened? Check your GPS.

The way is not it. When a person picks up the way, it isn't as if they've picked up enlightenment itself. They haven't reached the goal by merely understanding how to attain it and what it is. They're just beginners. They still need to walk.

You can't "reckon" when you'll become enlightened. This life? Maybe not? Who knows! All you can know is what you are, and if you don't even know that, then you're pretty far off course.

And Unwise said to Tharan,

Is there a self? Yes and no.

Is there free will? Yes and no.

Is there a god? Yes and no.

Is the world real? Yes and no.

If the world is real and unreal, then there's more to the question than meets the eye. The question is obviously too loaded to give a precise answer...so unload the question and then answer! Don't try to sound like a stereotypical Zen master by speaking in riddles. That's boring.

The truth is never yes and no. It's always clear cut. There are no actual paradoxes in reality, only apparent paradoxes because people are too lazy to fully explain the truth.

Unwise also said somewhere,

You begin to see why Jesus got the nail treatment and Socrates got the hemlock smoothie. -- At the hand of religious zealots who KNOW better and assume the condemned is possessed. The charge is always the same - blaspheme.

What are you getting? A stern typing to?

OUCH!

In all seriousness though, I can see where this type of thing leads to martyrdom. It's easy for guys to get into heated arguments and get all fumed. I think it's good that we don't take it further than we do. There's no point in harming someone just because of their opinions, no matter how wrong.

I'm sure that everyone who disagrees with Unwise is fairly calm about it. I don't think anyone would wish to nail him to a cross or poison him.

Get a grip.

Nemotode: (Who the hell is Nemotode?) Enlightenment cannot even be described with language.

Tharan: And yet, here we are…

Sure, and what have we, or anybody else for that matter, actually described what exactly “enlightenment” is?

It has always been a finger pointing to the moon kind of a thing. Can one show me the moon itself? Once you get ‘enlightened’, or whatever you call it, then try explaining it to someone else who could actually understand and Realize it just form your “description”.

Enlightenment - absence of delusion in your mind.

Frank:...freedom from suffering...

And, in my opinion, that can be achieved only by actually embracing the truth and reality of ‘sufferings’, which can be achieved only through embracing the truth and reality of ALL (Totality) that utterly exists, for what is NOT Reality? AND the fact that all that utterly exists, including the concepts of "Reality" or "Void" or "Enlightenment", OR any thing that one can think or imagine, is nothing more than a ripple, so eventually, what are sufferings any ways? OR utterly any THING else for that matter!

I cannot say more clearly or simply than this, and yet, I have actually described nothing.

Enjoy! I say that with a heavy heart.

frank wrote:Nick:

For the wise ignorance is a wall to be torn down in order to truly see Ultimate Reality in all its infinite glory.

Many of the greatest thinkers have declared that 'Ultimate Reality' is 'something' we can only gesture at...point to...indicate..

...a substratum of metaphysics that defies description by conventional language means...

...a chain of causation is about it for them...and as Quinn remarked one day...even cause and effect gets abandoned at some point...only useful as an indicator to get one to a point where it too gets abandoned...

The Zen Masters say...

'We have nothing to say...Zen is a 'yellow leaf' we give to the child, hungry for Gold...

So, you've torn down 'the wall' Nick...
Pray tell...what do you see?

frank

It would do me and you no good to try and describe what I see in words. You must learn to see for yourself.

unwise wrote:You begin to see why Jesus got the nail treatment and Socrates got the hemlock smoothie. -- At the hand of religious zealots who KNOW better and assume the condemned is possessed. The charge is always the same - blaspheme.

Nick shouted:

But when I know the way to enlightenment,

This is one of the silliest comments I've seen. If you know the way to a treasure, would you not soon pick it up? If you are on the correct path, when do you reckon you will become enlightened? Check your GPS.

Enlightenment cannot even be described with language. Its path is a mystery because one does not even know he is on a path at all. It's effects are paradoxical. His words are contradictory and offensive to human logic. But YOU are sure of its path and goal like a Mormon missionary or Southern Baptist or Jehovah Witness with his packet of Watchtower magazines.....or like an Islamist bomb-thrower is sure of his path and goal.

My words are not ego - they are words of encouragement, good news......the gospel. The fool became wise! This is the good news of the Kingdom of Heaven.

I show you and others the error of your ways and you have the audacity to compare the critisism you recieve to being crucified? Also, where on this forum did I ever make the comment: "But when I know the way to enlightenment...".

Nick:

It would do me and you no good to try and describe what I see in words.

Yes, it does get messy.

Nick:

You must learn to see for yourself.

Yes, eventually it's a breakthrough achieved by 'me'....but in order to get there a 'map' or 'set of instructions' or Method or Teacher as a prior cause has to be put in place to get the ball rolling doesn't it?..

Maybe you can tell us about that part of it Nick...the Method, if there is one...

I love a good Method.

frank

sapius:

And, in my opinion, that can be achieved only by actually embracing the truth and reality of ‘sufferings’, which can be achieved only through embracing the truth and reality of ALL (Totality) that utterly exists, for what is NOT Reality? AND the fact that all that utterly exists, including the concepts of "Reality" or "Void" or "Enlightenment", OR any thing that one can think or imagine, is nothing more than a ripple, so eventually, what are sufferings any ways? OR utterly any THING else for that matter!

What you seem to be saying Sapius is Suffering arises from having a Viewpoint that splits the Totality up...
Conventionally, our Minds are evaluating what arises and assigning it to a basic pair of Categories called Good or Bad...or Yes or No...
or 'I want this or 'I don't want this'...

That A=A thang correctly defined means 'recognition/differentiation/reaction...as you've pointed out before.

We recognise or Identify something...categorise it...a reaction is produced..

This becomes quite automatic in a Human who then tries to get all the Yeses happening for itself and avoiding all the No's....

I just cannot say that it is not Hilarious.

So, suffering means 'not getting what you want' in a sense, based on a narrow viewpoint...

frank

Frank, Here's a few things that may help you along the way. First and foremost is to let Truth dictate your reasoning. Try and allow it to happen naturally, though there will most likely be times when you rebel against it. If you can remain faithful in your reasoning I'm certain you will make progress. Another piece of advice, remain focused on the true nature of "things", know that they are finite and abstract formations created by our senses. Only the Universe itself is infinite. Eventually this should become more natural. Lastly, remain honest to yourself. This is not something you can fake or act out. It will change your life if you allow it to do so. If you need to double check yourself you should constantly reflect on your motives and actions to make sure they are aligned with Truth. Best of luck to you on your journey.

Nick:

Frank, Here's a few things that may help you along the way. First and foremost is to let Truth dictate your reasoning. Try and allow it to happen naturally, though there will most likely be times when you rebel against it. If you can remain faithful in your reasoning I'm certain you will make progress. Another piece of advice, remain focused on the true nature of "things", know that they are finite and abstract formations created by our senses. Only the Universe itself is infinite. Eventually this should become more natural. Lastly, remain honest to yourself. This is not something you can fake or act out. It will change your life if you allow it to do so. If you need to double check yourself you should constantly reflect of your motives and actions to make sure they are aligned with Truth. Best of luck to you on your journey.

Well, that's excellent advice and a Way of cutting thru' the shite..

And what it calls for is carving out a distinction for yourself of who you really are as the owner of your mind rather than as it's victim.

So, what you are saying to do is use A=A right?
When your Mind in it's monkey fashion...culturally conditioned way...identifies, differentiates, reacts...unconciously...

Like a Detective, you pull the 'Story' apart that the Mind just invented...exposing the Lie in it...

Psychologists these days don't muck around much listening to client's 'tales of woe'...'soap operas'...

Rather they teach a Method to the client called CBT or Cognitive Behaviour Therapy...

It defines the working of the undisciplined, conventional mind as

Thought produces a Feeling which produces an Action.

The Idea is to learn to examine the thought closely (is it true, is it really, really true)...this precludes the event of a silly action being caused...

It's pretty much A=A

frank