The Void or Not the Void

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
Locked
User avatar
Jamesh
Posts: 1526
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:44 pm

The Void or Not the Void

Post by Jamesh »

I'll post what I had in a word document
Sapius: Well said, except that there isn’t any “void” as such in my opinion
I am inclined to more strongly disagree with this point, than I agree with it :)

It is just another concept made paradoxical by the nature of language and logic.

My reasoning for the existence of a void follows:

One has to take the reality of duality to its fullest extent. That means that for every attribute that ALL things possess, or are bound to, then there exists an opposite attribute. This however does not mean that there are opposites of highly structured things, particular specific forms may not have an opposite.

Form, time (movement and change) and space (dimensions) are the most fundamental attributes of things. The nature of the physical world is that all things are temporary, change form over time, are contained within and contain space, are caused by what they presently are not, manifest causal action and are causally interconnected.

Using dualistic logic, which to me is what any more complex logic can ultimately be reduced to, then there must exist a part of the-totality-of-all-there-is, that has a directly opposite nature.

This would mean the nature of the void is one that has no structured things, is permanent, does not change, has no spatial dimensions, is not caused, does not manifest causal action (in the void only) and is not causally interconnected with its opposite.

Yet again, as in my last post, the bolded bits of the above statement blow some of my previous reasoning out of the water. The expansionary and contracting forces, must be caused and must be causally interconnected with its causal opposite. Damn.

Thinking away…
Thinking away…

OK, I've really just made some definitional or descriptive errors. This occurs because I am trying to describe a single process in a manner that divides it into illusionary separate parts.

Above I said "things…are caused by what they presently are not". This is an incomplete statement. To get a true opposite, I must broaden the statement to include the concept of "existence over time". In reality, things are caused by what they are and what they are not, but also lack inherent existence, meaning they do not self-begin, or self-end.

I also have to extend the definition for this statement "things are causally interconnected". In reality, things are not absolutely interconnected in all possible ways. If they were, which is impossible, then everything that happens anywhere, would happen in the same instant with the same degree of force. There would be no difference between something directly adjacent and something in another galaxy, as there would be no slowing down of the transmission of causal activity from one location to another. It would be impossible for anything to evolve or devolve.

Taking this broader definition, the voidal opposite would thus be:

The expansionary and contracting forces, are caused by what they are and what they are not, instantaneously, and are absolutely connected in all possible ways [which at the fundamental level is only one way]. Permanency, the base of the universe upon which temporality exists, cannot exist without it being instantaneous. Only that part of the totality that is instantaneous is permanent.

Some possible reasoning for the non-existence of a void follows:

If things manifest from the void, and eventually return to the void if caused to do so, as in the forces become absolutely polarised, then the void is intrinsically connected to the physical world. By default every part of the physical world must have a direct interconnection to the void. In essence this means that a conception separation between the void and the physical world is, at least in part, an illusion.

It is not an absolute illusion, though, as we define by observation of difference in causal action. Using my above reasoning, there is a clear cut process of duality, where two opposites are merging to form a thing that has the opposite nature to its causal predecessor, which in this case the whole physical world.

If, as I have stated above, the two forces are intrinsically interconnected in all possible ways, and if I classify the physical world as consisting entirely of various ratios of the two forces, then this means that no part of the void is ever in a pure state, which in turn means the void does not exist as it will always be in an impure form. Although this statement seems logically correct it is not.

Yet again, the problem here is one not taking all aspects of the void into account. One of the requirements of the void, as a totality, is that it is self-caused, however this can only occur if its parts create each other. As ultimate dualists, we realise that nothing can be without a cause. For the fundamental forces to cause each other, in any one instant, each must be in the process of creating the other. A kind of paradox of existence/non-existence must occur where, something is both non-instantaneous when existing, and instantaneous when not existing. If it already exists, then it cannot at the same time be ALSO said to be caused to exist by its opposite, whereas if it does not exist then it can be caused to exist by its opposite.

Although this whole paragraph is perhaps absolutely "oxymoronic", I can see how this process would create FLOWING time, a causal flicker effect where in which the individual causal action of each of the forces switches on and on, but as this occurs dualistically, namely when one is "causally off or non-existent" the other is "causally on or existent", then the void as a totality is essentially instantaneous and existing, but also creates a causal flicker to permanently flow into the physical universe.

This causal flicker is what allows for the existence of things, as it allows quantification, it allows quantum effects, and it is a quantum flow that prevents the physical world from being causally instantaneous, resting upon the instantaneous void. Physicists have identified a number of universal constants (applying at least to their perspective of the universe, which exists within a semi-verse pattern where the semi-verse in within an overall large pattern of dominant expansion - such constants may be variable if measured elsewhere, but there still will be constants). Constants can only occur is there is some form of underlying quantum causal stepping or layering that allows for the evolution of common things like quarks, electrons, elements, maximum stars sizes, etc.

The forces evolve from the void and devolve back into a voidal state, in an opposite manner. Ie if the expansionary force became pure in the physical world then it become contractionary in the voidal domain. In essence this could easily be the cause of the seeming weirdness of quantum entanglement, but it also supports a permanent and infinite circular process, as well as another manner in which quantumness is causable (as it could very well be that a causal flicker is created as the force switches poles entering the void, as it may be caused to "wait" until a pure form of the opposite force is caused to occur in which case both then re-enter the void in the same instant. It also very nicely ties in with my theory that the fundamental forces, are just opposite forms of time, "instantaneous time" and "static time").

I believe there are sufficient grounds to use the concept of a void when examining reality.
There is no such thing as an ultimate single particle but infinite structures to the depths of duality,
Sure, but for things to show differing ratios of expansionary or contracting force, then there must exist the ultimate of those forms, which is the ultimate depth of duality, the void.
User avatar
Jamesh
Posts: 1526
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:44 pm

Re: The Void or Not the Void

Post by Jamesh »

From Sapius

James… you know what… I had to read your post couple of times… and yet have to comprehend its consistency.

I simply don’t understand why there is a necessity for a “void”? It is the same thing as looking for the ‘first’ cause, or NAME One fundamental “cause” to causality, where there isn’t one to begin with.

I was never really convinced with explanations that followed with; it is, and yet it is not; it is not, and yet it is not nothing whatsoever; and the likes… I find that one is simply changing uniforms to fit what he thinks should inherently exist as an Absolute; be it Void, Tao, Ultimate Truth, God, etc. Whereas duality in itself is an inter-dependent (things dependent on causes, and causes dependent on things) and hence a self-driven dance of a swaying expansion and contraction; and this SWAYING itself could have no beginning or end, so where does a need for a “void” arise?

Could you tell me why a “void” is necessarily a must for existence to be what it is?
User avatar
Jamesh
Posts: 1526
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:44 pm

Re: The Void or Not the Void

Post by Jamesh »

My new response and general ramble
Could you tell me why a “void” is necessarily a must for existence to be what it is?
I decided a while ago not to exempt anything from the cause and effect process and the dualistic nature in which any thing is formed and consists of. So to me neither the totality or any if its parts, including the fundamental parts, the expansionary and contracting forces can suddenly be exempted from the same process rules that we observe in things. To me causality itself must be caused, which is possible only in a circular process, A to B to A, not just a linear dualistic process of between A and B.

The forces thus cannot exist without being caused to exist. That they create each other is a fundamental dualistic process [that I cannot yet really justify by logic], but my point is that there must also be a dualistic opposite to their sum, or more specifically, to their unified existence.

My requirement for a void stems in part from an observation of unities like chemical bonding. Molecules form because of synergistic groupings in layers. To me every distinct thing is of the nature of a crystalline formation. Parts align in organised rows, three dimensionally, where each array of similar parts is bonded to both a horizontal and vertical array of similar or complementary (equalising) units of existence. Each part (balance) is held is place by the relativity of its free (non-balanced) forces to the aura of forces that surround it. The stability of this part in relation to its “maintenance” or continuity of its form or structure, as well as it relative spatial location, is dependant on the two forces being in a state that includes both perfect and non-perfect equalisation. Perfect equalisation is the parts centre, and non-perfect equalisation, the outside, is what the part (as a pseudos totality) uses to form an equalisation with other parts, where the effect of each other cancels out spatial growth or decline, by spatially binding the forces.

The formation of structure cannot occur just with the dance of opposing forces. On their own, on only one level of duality, the two forces would always perfectly equalise each other, and in doing so would only form a single uniform boundary, a single universal form that would not allow for the development of structure. Structures form not from perfection alone, but from the continuous effect of a "separate" chaos-causing agent. The chaos-causing agent cannot be something that exists prior to the dance of the two forces, it has to be partially caused by both the two forces and something else, it also has to be something caused, that at the same time is also a cause for the two forces themselves. This process is not a linear causal flow however, it is an instantaneous causal "Event", there are no "prior" or 'after" causal actions in the void. [note, I’m not overly content with these last two statements. They may be inconsistent with what I later say about time, but lets not worry about that]. "Infinity" is simply something that precludes being affected by our form of time, "flowing" time, infinity precedes flowing time. In concert with other causes, it causes flowing time.

In order for the fundamental forces to be permanent and infinite, they must continually do what they do. The expansionary force expands and the contracting force contracts. This however begs the question – Into what are they expanding and contracting? It can’t be really each other as they are unchangeable, thus they are not intrinsically mixable - their merging does not alter what they are in any way, they merge structurally, not absolutely.

The answer is that they expand and contract into a new unity, a unity that is additional to the cause, so that the original cause remains as it was, and the new addition to existence has the same attributes as that which caused it, but at the same time is still different in one way.

Something cannot exist without something preceding it having a different nature. The initial unity is Space. Space is a layer of existence. The difference between Space as the fundamental layer of the physical world, the fundamental layer of observable existence, and that which created this space, must be of an absolute nature. Differentiation, at this level only, between the cause and the effect must be absolute, they must be directly opposite in their nature of existence.

Neither of the forces can exist alone in Space. They are single directional entities, that have a non-dualistic causal effect. The expansionary force is a "within to out" entity and the contracting force is from "out to in", and although as a whole this is a dualistic action A to A+, the direction is singular, which is non-dualistic. Being non-directionally dualistic, the expansionary force for example does not pulse out and in, it simply pulses out. Space in being an entity in which a thing can travel through in any and all directions, requires that Space be a unity of both the two forces, so that things can travel “from within to out”, and “from out to in”.

Space therefore is an extra thing, a created thing, that just happens to contain a precise equal mix of the two forces. When I say just happens I mean it MUST happen, because the boundary between the two forces is of the nature of a spectrum between the two poles and therefore, logically in the very middle must exist a form of perfection. [A perfection that is precisely equal as a total of the common definition of Space that is. As there will be some degree of fundamental force ratio fluctuation around the 50/50 mean, this may cause potential realities like worm holes or the like. Mind you it is a complete abuse of A=A to describe a worm hole as Space, it is not, as it is not the perfection of space, but rather a type of spatial event. That we might identify a worm hole, clearly shows differentiation and as such a new thingness becomes observable].

Space is just the initial layer. As stated it consists entirely of the two forces ,and these forces are still being causal agents, their nature of expansion and contraction are still doing precisely that. Their continued action within space adds another layer to space, a layer within the space layer, as caused by the two forces. What is gradually produced by the action of these two forces within space, is more spatial finiteness. But then another layer must appear, as the forces are still causing merrily away, and the effect of each layer in turn induces more and more spatial finiteness.

Each layer is more bounded than the previous layer because each new layer exists within the previous layer. Each layer is thus bounded by all the preceding layers, in a kind of step down process. Existence is much like a “rounded pyramid” of causal activity. When we observe something we are peering into reality from the base of the pyramid to the cone, and in doing so, it as if we are the void, the initial layer of existence.

As things of mass exist inside the larger domain of wave forms, wave forms of existence, like everything in the electromagnetic spectrum, are caused by the action of the two forces within space and the wave form of existence is "opposite" to space, in that waves are spatially finite and also move [space has neither of these attributes].

Wave forms are a kind of three dimensional finiteness, whereas what the wave form layer produces is an additional Two and Three dimensional finiteness, namely forms that have the attribute of mass. Things of mass interact in a linear fashion, a cue ball crashes into another. Although on the level of the whole thing, such causal flows are linear, this does not mean its content acts in the same linear fashion. Everything that makes up the mass acts a non-linear three dimensional manner, with a wave form effect - which is why things release light and radiation, and magnetised objects repel each other and so on. In, the wave form domain, being the cause of, or creating mass, this means mass can also be made to reduce back into a wave form entity, by fracturing the perfect balance in the nucleus or centre of gravity of the object of mass.

Interesting the more spatially finite existence is caused to become, the more movement and speed that unit of existence will appear to possess to an outside observer.

Each successful layer of caused existence, of greater and greater finiteness, is opposite to its preceding layer, and as mentioned above as each layer is more finite, this can only mean that it must exist inside the previous layer. This effect makes it appear to observers that things are not really layered in the manner I describe. A thing that is merely different to another is not opposite. For example the table of elements has groups with common attributes, ie the group of gases, the likeness of silver and platinum, and so on. Something that has common elements is not dualistically opposite, it is simply that some of its attributes are not the same and some are. It would be difficult to call a green gas and a blue gas, opposites. This is an illusion. We must be careful we are comparing apples with apples.

Neither of the fundamental forces is causally more powerful than the other, but as they are opposites, a higher ratio of one over the other will of course create different appearances. It is the unification of layers of the same existence level, that provides the structural layers required for the formation of a physical attribute. As matter can be broken down into energy, then this means that layers of existence that are lower than the present layer, can cause an imbalance in a higher level layer. Without this the whole of each layer would be a perfect replica of the preceding one, and thus there would only ever be one perfectly formed appearance. Between each layer is a infinite ratio spectrum of one force over the other with a central perfect balance. Now because subsequently caused layers are each more finite than the previous layer, they can and do in turn have an reverse effect on the preceding spectrum - they interfere with this spectrum and this interference results in a twirling of the spectrum, which introduces spatial movement and the chaotic-ness of relativity-complexity - both of which create the vast array of appearances we can observe.

All matter appearances are appearances of significant structural complexity, and as such will contain some common elements, for instance all things at the atomic scale or above have the common element of having mass. Commonality plus limited differentiation can provide for the immense number of appearance we observe.

One needs to note that each new layer of existence is otherwise the same as the preceding layer (prior to the interference). Each layer is caused by a perfect equalisation of the two forces – regardless of how deep or shallow in the hierarchy of existence a layer might be, the same causal process is at work, and the same outcome results. They are not at all opposite in that fashion, they are opposite only by virtue of the fact that each balance is an additive balance. As the new balance is NOT the previous balance, then at this fundamental level it is “opposite” to the preceding balance in the only manner it can be, it is not that which caused it, so therefore we now have both A and Not-A, as well as the boundary between A and Not-A.

The purpose of the above is to try and show you that duality is not just the interaction of two opposites in a linear fashion, but that it is “doubly dualistic”, meaning that that which is created by a dualistic occurrence, cannot exist without also being in dualistic opposition to something else. Dualism is a horizontal and vertical flow of dualistic causal action that occurs in unison. It is this “double duality” that allows for the required circular process of reality.

In terms of things every thing is interconnected. Things are not however absolutely connected. Each property a thing has signifies non-connection between that thing and something else, each property signifies the existence of a boundary. A boundary is a disconnection. Now although a disconnection has occurred, this disconnection is itself another connection. It is a connection on a different angle of causal relationship.

Dualism is really a four way event, not just a two way event. We call it dualism because it is ever so more convenient and conventional to conceptualise reality as if it were just horizontally dualistic, as in from between A to B. A dualistic causal interaction causes a change, and as duality is not a single process, any change that occurs has an instantaneous dualistic effect on that which was not directly involved in the dualistic event. In terms of the forces in their totality, one could imagine this as indicating - that if any change is immediate, then there is really only one change and thus only a single dualistic interaction. Sure, that is the case on that plane, but there is also an immediate dualistic change of some sort on the Instant time/static-time plane of existence.

If things are taken as being a "whole", the overall interaction that occurs within a singular dualistic event, is linear, or a limited set of linear transactions - A forces itself against the resistance of B, the resistance of B forces itself against the incursion of A. The actual event however is non-linear, linear duality only relates to whole forms. Because the forces, in terms of how they act in the physical world, are in a three dimensional state of going-out, or coming-in, the whole of their existence is in active involvement with the whole of reality. It is a holistic process rather than any sort of linear process.


The void has double duality in the form of the horizontal Expansionary/Contractionary dualism, AND the vertical Static-Time/Instant-Time dualism, both of which are circularly casually linked to their caused opposites in the non-voidal world.

In our observable world the concepts of Static-Time/Instant-Time become fairly problematical. Even if something became completely static as it its movement completely froze, then it would still technically exist, in the sense that it would be something – it just would not be something observable. Of course, everything is causal and thus cannot ever be completely static.

Duality requires that there be an opposite to causality, and also requires that there be an opposite to existence. There is one possibility of a form of existence that in itself is not directly causal in the physical world, and could be said not to exist, and that happens to be Time.

Time exists in the physical world only in the sense of it as a measurement of change. Why?, you ask. The answer is that one cannot create something from nothing. For the two forces to manifest their casual action, then this must be caused by a duality of time and each of the forces. As time has been utilised at that point, then the same time cannot be utilised again, as it has already been used up to allow the forces time to expand and contract. With time, you can’t double dip. If time was utilised in the void, then again in the physical world then the forces would have double the power in the physical world. Such a scenario just doesn’t make sense to me, as I cannot imagine any reason that would cause time to act twice.

To understand the above, which seems to contradict something I said earlier, you need to understand the semi-illusion of the physical world.

The physical world is just a world of boundaries. It is not a self-caused thing and exists only because of prior activity. It exists because the Expansionary force is NOT the Contractionary force. In not being the same differentiation is created, but unlike the primary forces, it does not have its own existence, it has nothing of its own, except what it is, namely form. It resides “between” the forces and does not contain the forces as such. It is opposite to the two forces in the sense that it is not the two forces, but rather is merely an EFFECT created by the very existence of the two forces. The two forces are absolute and thus unchangeable (except in relation to time).
User avatar
Jamesh
Posts: 1526
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:44 pm

Re: The Void or Not the Void

Post by Jamesh »

Two graphics (sorry Dan, I won't post images often)

Image


Image

Link in above image: http://www.19.5degs.com/element/882.php
Sapius
Posts: 1619
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 4:59 pm

Re: The Void or Not the Void

Post by Sapius »

James, yes, your over all explanation does seem contradictory, and the terms you use may have a different definition that I may not be aware of, so it may be better if we take it step by step, otherwise it won't make much sense.
S: There is no such thing as an ultimate single particle but infinite structures to the depths of duality,

J: Sure, but for things to show differing ratios of expansionary or contracting force, then there must exist the ultimate of those forms, which is the ultimate depth of duality, the void.
Firstly, what do you mean by ‘ultimate’? Secondly, why should expansionary or contracting forces necessarily have ultimate forms, rather than being resultant effects of motion in and of interactive structures itself? Lastly, how did you arrive at ‘there must be an ultimate depth of (or to) duality that must ultimately stop at a point called ‘void’ (would ‘void’ be equal to some sort of singularity/unity)?
I decided a while ago not to exempt anything from the cause and effect process and the dualistic nature in which any thing is formed and consists of. So to me neither the totality or any if its parts, including the fundamental parts, the expansionary and contracting forces can suddenly be exempted from the same process rules that we observe in things. To me causality itself must be caused, which is possible only in a circular process, A to B to A, not just a linear dualistic process of between A and B.
I don’t know how you get the idea that it is a linear process, but however, what made you decide that causality or totality must have been caused? And what do you mean that causality itself must be caused in (or by) a possibly circular process? What does ‘A to B to A’ mean? When, where and how do you see a beginning to causality itself?
---------
Locked