GENIUS FORUMS

Jason wrote:

Sue: It is in that conclusion where your method becomes ordinary, and therefore casts doubt upon it. This would not be a problem if you weren’t after certainty, but you say you are. An untested idea cannot be described as ‘ultimate’ unless all doubt has been eliminated – something you have yet to apply to your "Things are just as they are" idea.

What I "found" is so certain that it transcends certainty, it encompasses certainty. "Things are just as they are" aka Suchness, is probably similar to what you would call "the Infinite", it is literally everything. Testing and doubt only make sense when applied to limited things, but testing/untested and doubt/certainty are all contained within Suchness.

I can’t agree with you that “Suchness is similar to ‘the Infinite’”. The thought that ‘things are what they are’ is a truth that when put together with other truths, forms the basis for an intellectual understanding of The Infinite. Therefore, you cannot define this one truth as being the ultimate answer.

An ‘ultimate answer’ answers all questions about life and death. Your idea doesn’t even begin to do this. Knowing that things are what they are, doesn’t give one the intellectual tools for unraveling the universe the way that cause and effect does. Only by using this universal principle of all creation can we even begin to understand what everything is, and how and why they are the way they are. From this, one can roam throughout the universe, unhindered by feelings of boredom and restlessness. In contrast, your idea of Suchness lacks the ability to do anything other than satisfy your own desire for this to be the answer to everything. But seemly it doesn’t even do this very well -

In an earlier post to Shardrol, you wrote that you had to focus “on other methods of finding great happiness/fulfillment” because “this understanding does not provide those things”. You continued by saying that these “new methods for chasing fulfillment” weren’t what you’d call “philosophy”. You also say that sometimes you feel “embarrassed about how utterly simplistic and intellectually unstimulating” your idea is; though to balance that, you say you have the “ego and pride component” in having attained your understanding.

You also wrote:

I think the depth of my realization wavers, and when I have really deeply realized "reality is just as it is" it has been a profound experience for me, "Of course! How could it be any different! How obvious!". It's funny that the very same ideas that sometimes embarrass me when I'm not really deeply realizing Suchness e.g. "It's so obvious, it changes nothing!" are EXACTLY the same things that I find very profound when I more deeply realize Isness.

All up then, what you are saying is that you have hold of an idea which “changes nothing” as to your understanding anything deeper about Nature. And from this attainment, you remain an emotionally needy animal, sometimes using your Suchness idea, and at other times using non-philosophical things, just to keep your head above water. And this is what you reckon the life of a man in possession of Ultimate Wisdom is like?

Sounds pretty shonky to me!

-
Sue

Sue,

Jason: What I "found" is so certain that it transcends certainty, it encompasses certainty. "Things are just as they are" aka Suchness, is probably similar to what you would call "the Infinite", it is literally everything. Testing and doubt only make sense when applied to limited things, but testing/untested and doubt/certainty are all contained within Suchness.

sue hindmarsh: I can’t agree with you that “Suchness is similar to ‘the Infinite’”. The thought that ‘things are what they are’ is a truth that when put together with other truths, forms the basis for an intellectual understanding of The Infinite.

In the above I defined suchness and the infinite as "literally everything", and since you agree with QSR you should, I think, agree with that definition.

Sue: Therefore, you cannot define this one truth as being the ultimate answer. An ‘ultimate answer’ answers all questions about life and death. Your idea doesn’t even begin to do this.

Bullshit, you wouldn't know for example the answer to the question: am I going to the xtian heaven to meet Noah after I die?

S: Knowing that things are what they are, doesn’t give one the intellectual tools for unraveling the universe the way that cause and effect does. Only by using this universal principle of all creation can we even begin to understand what everything is, and how and why they are the way they are.

"Everything" cannot be captured by understanding, the unlimited cannot be captured by the limited. Also your ideas of "unravelling the universe", "cause and effect", "how things are", "why things are", these are limited too. You are trying to reduce that which is literally everything and unlimited, and it doesn't work. No answer, no understanding or no map can capture the whole. The only way to get a perfect map of reality is to realize that the only absolutely perfect map of reality - is reality itself, a perfectly 1:1 scale map. Only when the map and reality merge and there is no longer any difference is there a perfect map, and then there is no longer a map, just reality. Things just as they are.

Once that is realized "understanding" just becomes another feature on the map that is reality.

S: From this, one can roam throughout the universe, unhindered by feelings of boredom and restlessness.
In contrast, your idea of Suchness lacks the ability to do anything other than satisfy your own desire for this to be the answer to everything. But seemly it doesn’t even do this very well -

I wasn't searching for an end to boredom, or to stop restlessness, or an ability to do something - I was searching for ultimate truth and reality. Your concern for these other things might give someone the impression that these are what you are really interested in, and not truth.

J: I think the depth of my realization wavers, and when I have really deeply realized "reality is just as it is" it has been a profound experience for me, "Of course! How could it be any different! How obvious!". It's funny that the very same ideas that sometimes embarrass me when I'm not really deeply realizing Suchness e.g. "It's so obvious, it changes nothing!" are EXACTLY the same things that I find very profound when I more deeply realize Isness.

S: All up then, what you are saying is that you have hold of an idea which “changes nothing” as to your understanding anything deeper about Nature. And from this attainment, you remain an emotionally needy animal, sometimes using your Suchness idea, and at other times using non-philosophical things, just to keep your head above water. And this is what you reckon the life of a man in possession of Ultimate Wisdom is like?

Sounds pretty shonky to me!

It almost sounds like you're saying that a person should base their judgements on philosophical issues on what they "reckon the life of a man in possession of ultimate wisdom is like".

That doesn't suprise me, because I have noticed that you seem to have a habit of worshipping an imaginary externalized sage. The sage is this, the sage is that, the sage is great, the sage is wise, the sage is strong, the sage values truth above life itself, the sage writes with his blood etc. So much third person reverential writing you do about this imaginary sage. So distant from your own life and experience. I think you need to stop the hero worship of the imaginary sage and his imaginary traits and abilities, and start living and speaking philosophy from your own personal experience and mind and world.

Yes I am an emotionally needy animal, yes I sometimes struggle and suffer(I can also be bursting with energetic joy and happiness), and yes my understanding of suchness does help me(to a small degree) to keep my head above the water so to speak, but then I generally don't feel like I'm treading water most of the time.

If you don't want to be an emotionally needy animal, if you don't want to struggle and suffer, then seek an end to these things, but don't fool yourself that you are fundamentally searching for truth, admit you are ultimately seeking pain relief.

I'm unsure as to whether or not the realization that things are what they are is actually genius.

millipodium wrote:I'm unsure as to whether or not the realization that things are what they are is actually genius.

Think it over for a while and get back to me. ;)

Jason wrote:

millipodium wrote:I'm unsure as to whether or not the realization that things are what they are is actually genius.

Think it over for a while and get back to me. ;)

Ok. thought about it. It's not genius.

What is it then?

Jason wrote:What is it then?

A comprehension of the basic meaning of the word is. Are you clinton?

Jason wrote:

Sue: I can’t agree with you that “Suchness is similar to ‘the Infinite’”.

In the above I defined suchness and the infinite as "literally everything", and since you agree with QSR you should, I think, agree with that definition.

You once again confuse your half-baked idea with the majesty of the Infinite. But don’t take my word for it - if you want to know if Suchness is similar to the Infinite - go take a look for yourself.

Sue: Therefore, you cannot define this one truth as being the ultimate answer. An ‘ultimate answer’ answers all questions about life and death. Your idea doesn’t even begin to do this.

Bullshit, you wouldn't know for example the answer to the question: am I going to the xtian heaven to meet Noah after I die?

I hope you are just playing at insanity, and don’t really think of the sage as some sort of Gypsy fortuneteller.

Understanding life and death is a natural consequence of understanding cause and effect.

Sue: Knowing that things are what they are, doesn’t give one the intellectual tools for unraveling the universe the way that cause and effect does. Only by using this universal principle of all creation can we even begin to understand what everything is, and how and why they are the way they are.

"Everything" cannot be captured by understanding, the unlimited cannot be captured by the limited.

Yet this is what you are doing with your Suchness idea. You are attached to a shallow intellectual understanding of what things are, which prevents you from seeing the deeper truth of the non-existence of things.

Also your ideas of "unravelling the universe", "cause and effect", "how things are", "why things are", these are limited too. You are trying to reduce that which is literally everything and unlimited, and it doesn't work. No answer, no understanding or no map can capture the whole. The only way to get a perfect map of reality is to realize that the only absolutely perfect map of reality - is reality itself, a perfectly 1:1 scale map. Only when the map and reality merge and there is no longer any difference is there a perfect map, and then there is no longer a map, just reality. Things just as they are.

Once that is realized "understanding" just becomes another feature on the map that is reality.

I said not so long ago that your ‘idea’ was on a par with the sort of stuff Christians come up with. From what you have written above, it is plain to see why I made that judgment.

The Christian's answer to everything is their insipid God. You also have but one reply – things are what they are. Neither satisfies the discerning mind, as neither one is the product of reason pushed to the max.

For example: To the question of free will you will apply your Suchness and answer, “Free will, or no free will – whatever – it is what it is. The Christian will answer, “God gave us free will so that we can choose to do good over bad”. Both show a hatred for thought, and a love of irrational codswallop.

To understand free will you need to understand what the mind is, and what thought is. This is found by understanding how all things exist. And with that knowledge you can then understand human psychology. Applying this knowledge to your own self is the first step onto the philosophical path.

I’ve not seen any evidence of you doing any of what I’ve described above – yet you say you know everything about life and death (Ultimate Reality)?

I wasn't searching for an end to boredom, or to stop restlessness, or an ability to do something - I was searching for ultimate truth and reality. Your concern for these other things might give someone the impression that these are what you are really interested in, and not truth.

Because you know nothing about cause and effect, you therefore know nothing about human psychology. This means that you are unable to discern what caused you to be interested in your skew-whiff idea of philosophy. Until you do know these things, you cannot pass judgment on others – well, not any that can be taken seriously.

It almost sounds like you're saying that a person should base their judgements on philosophical issues on what they "reckon the life of a man in possession of ultimate wisdom is like".

The Man of Truth, and The Truth, is one and the same thing.

That doesn't suprise me, because I have noticed that you seem to have a habit of worshipping an imaginary externalized sage. The sage is this, the sage is that, the sage is great, the sage is wise, the sage is strong, the sage values truth above life itself, the sage writes with his blood etc. So much third person reverential writing you do about this imaginary sage. So distant from your own life and experience. I think you need to stop the hero worship of the imaginary sage and his imaginary traits and abilities, and start living and speaking philosophy from your own personal experience and mind and world.

Everything I write is from my personal experience of what I know to be true.

It is impossible for anyone to think from any other position then from his or her own personal experience. One may be speaking about traveling through Black Holes, or Neanderthal man, or anything at all – what ever comes to mind is what you are experiencing at that moment.

My knowledge about what is required of a man to become a sage comes directly from my knowledge about cause and effect. As I mentioned before, once you have a good understanding of cause and effect, you can then understand all there is to know about psychology - and everything else.

Yes I am an emotionally needy animal, yes I sometimes struggle and suffer(I can also be bursting with energetic joy and happiness), and yes my understanding of suchness does help me(to a small degree) to keep my head above the water so to speak, but then I generally don't feel like I'm treading water most of the time.

If you don't want to be an emotionally needy animal, if you don't want to struggle and suffer, then seek an end to these things, but don't fool yourself that you are fundamentally searching for truth, admit you are ultimately seeking pain relief.

You are like a fish out of water when it comes to Philosophy. Until you apply your mind to the question of existence, you cannot begin to understand what drives a man to do anything at all.

-
Sue