GENIUS FORUMS

Just a topic of curiosity for me and I was wondering if anyone had some insights/opinions. Periodically throughout my life I have felt that at certain times of the month I would be drained/depressed/weird chemistry-esque and I would always look at the sky and see that it was a full moon or new moon. After a while I just accepted that there was a definite correlation to how I feel during the three-day alignment creating a full moon. Most of us rely on skepticism, intellectual deduction, formulas, or innate/extrasensory-based observation to understand something, but usually one of these forms dominates our understanding of the world. I like to consider myself balanced in that I usually try to understand something on many levels (even ways that are deemed fantastical) but it is impossible (and unnecessary) to be unbiased. This morning I decided to do a little research and a loveable closed-minded skeptic wrote the first article I found…

http://skepdic.com/fullmoon.html

This article challenged my extrasensory observation and inspired more research. But I have found that only half of this article was backed by the latest research and of course the skeptic turned out to be in some ways just as fantastically closed-minded as most of the mystic-thinkers were.

(And here is the article’s antithesis: http://www.innerself.com/Astrology/full_moon.htm)

The statistical and scientific research was contradictory and couldn’t support either side (definitively declaring it a myth or a phenomena). So I just did basic scientifically proven searches and discovered:

http://home.hiwaay.net/~krcool/Astro/moon/moontides/

Which provides excellent graphic and written models detailing the moon’s cycle and tidal changes. This also describes the change in gravity that occurs and this simple fact (gravity) has dominated my subsequent inquiries. Note that it is not the gravitational force that is doing it, but the change in the gravitational force across the body of the Earth.

But first some more elementary information is required. There are only seven known forms of energy in our universe: Light, Heat, Sound, Chemical, Kinetic, Potential (gravity), and Nuclear.

http://www.purchon.com/physics/energy.htm

Of these forms of energy Potential (gravity) and Nuclear have the greatest impact and influence on our universe as a whole. With that said in mind back to the gravity thing.

Exactly what effect does a change in gravity have on living organisms? Well according to the latest research it has a profound influence down to the smallest level -- the structure of our very cells.

http://weboflife.nasa.gov/currentResear ... eleton.htm

“Life on Earth evolved in the presence of gravity. Consequently, all biological processes are accustomed to the omnipresent force of gravity. Any slight fluctuations and variations in this force can have significant impact on the health and function of organisms.”

So whether or not the incredibly limited and flawed science of psychology can prove behavioral change during a full moon is totally irrelevant. To me it is plain and sound logic. The full moon has a significant effect on living organisms changing the very shape, structure, and alignment of our cells, which ultimately effects the activity of our cells, our RNA and DNA, and even immune function.

SO SUCK ON THAT YOU F*CKING SKEPTICS!!! (Just kidding I’m a skeptic, sometimes).

For more info you can research “Gravitational Biology”.

I've worked in hospitals, and I can say from observation that there is an increase in strange behavior during a full moon. People on the police force have noted the same thing. Not everyone gets strange during a full moon, but I would have to say from observation that some people are susceptible to the effects of a full moon.

Elizabeth.
Do you feel a difference during a full moon?

I usually get my period during a full moon, but if something messes up my biological cycle, no, not usually. Sometimes it's harder for me to sleep during a full moon, but that's all.

How about you?

AlyOshA wrote: "Any slight fluctuations and variations in this force can have significant impact on the health and function of organisms.”

So whether or not the incredibly limited and flawed science of psychology can prove behavioral change during a full moon is totally irrelevant. To me it is plain and sound logic. The full moon has a significant effect on living organisms changing the very shape, structure, and alignment of our cells, which ultimately effects the activity of our cells, our RNA and DNA, and even immune function.

What I miss from this logic is proportion. The gravitational impact of a moon phase compared to a state of being free from Earth's gravity where many of the experiments were about.

The tides only arise because of the difference in combined Sun/Moon pull considering the spherical size of the Earth. A human body doesn't stretch over the surface of the Earth so it ends up with a personal 'pull' of 4×10^-13 Newton/kg. That's the same graviational pull caused by a pea holding half a meter above someone's head. Going to a bedroom upstairs results in a weight change that is about 5 times larger than that
produced by the tidal mechanism during a spring tide (for more detail see also: Myths about Gravity and Tides by Mikolaj Sawicki).

So whatever lunar effect is there, it really is not directly related to gravitational effects on our body. Unless we can demonstrate first a link between our body and the state of the seas or the stress in the Earth's core or global surface.

The tides only arise because of the difference in combined Sun/Moon pull considering the spherical size of the Earth.

Not to mention the time it took for those tides to develop. The tides are basically an enormous wave that was created by the revolving gravity. It's not like the tides would disappear overnight if the moon was destroyed. They would still occur for a long time afterwards.

Thanks Matt, that's another thing to consider.

One interesting angle for researchers could be the the idea of frequency or cyclic changes as opposed to random occurrence or continuous exposure. The amount of gravitational force might be minuscule (like similar discussions around claimed magnetic influences of electrical currents around us, or radiation sources) but something in its frequency might still be able to get picked up, filtered out of the violent chaos of stronger occurrences in the immediate environment.

Problem for researchers is to somehow prove that eg tapping your foot on the floor in certain rhythmic patterns would be detectable by a device a mile away when in between there's a highway, marathon taking place, building project going in and an active oil rig at the same time.

It's not impossible that the pattern could be detected somehow but one has to admit that it goes against the current understanding of natural forces and how they interact.

Wow, these are all excellent details that I totally didn't see (but I somehow knew would be uncovered if I posted).

Matt Wrote:
"It's not like the tides would disappear overnight if the moon was destroyed. They would still occur for a long time afterwards."

Matt if this is the case then what about the more dramatic tides like the Proxigean Spring Tide?

Diebert. If lunar effects are miniscule (which I will admit has been sufficiently displayed), similar to the tapping of a foot a mile away, then what environmental effects do consider to be similar to the stronger occurrences, the marathon, the oil rig ect.? (you know on the more macro level ie the seasons as opposed to one night of rain)

Diebert. To expand the question a little, do you believe that macro occurrences affect us, possibly in less readily observable ways than micro/specific/tangible occurrences? Maybe that’s an illusive question but hopefully you catch my drift.

AlyOshA wrote:Diebert. To expand the question a little, do you believe that macro occurrences affect us, possibly in less readily observable ways than micro/specific/tangible occurrences?

Yes. And less readily observable because of the (time) scale it works on and which requires a zooming out which is very hard to do in a scientific way. Scientific in the sense of picking apart or repeating under some controlled circumstances.

Some interwoven rhythms can be tricky to perceive. A simple example here: there was the mystery of kids born "under the sign of Leo" - late summer - appearing to be more athletic successful and leading adults later on, statistically. Instead of being a confirmation of astrology it appeared to the investigators that their sample group all started the school season late summer. So kids having their birthday around the start of the season were often not admitted yet to the school but became eldest kid in the next year. On certain ages the physical and mental differences of one year is rather large and so they become more often motivated to lead and excel in sport.

So the combination of a solar calendar and a seasonal based schedule caused a pattern to arise that is not that obvious at first glance.

AlyOshA wrote:Wow, these are all excellent details that I totally didn't see (but I somehow knew would be uncovered if I posted).

Matt Wrote:
"It's not like the tides would disappear overnight if the moon was destroyed. They would still occur for a long time afterwards."

Matt if this is the case then what about the more dramatic tides like the Proxigean Spring Tide?

It could be explained by the complexity of waves and multiple tidal waves coming together every so often.

I think the tides are caused by the moon pulling on the water more when it's directly over the water, less when it's directly over land, and that's what makes the force of gravity oscillate enough to create waves in the water. So the topography of the earth could make a complex bunch of waves in the water. If there was no land, I don't think there would be any tides. The topography under the water probably affects it too, though, so I guess it would also depend on how flat the bottom of the ocean is.

But anyway, this is all just my personal theory. I just posted it originally to see if anyone would believe it :-)

Here is a Pub Med abstract indicating that a study showed that homocides and aggivated assaults increase around the full moon, but psychiatric admissions decrease.

Matt Gregory wrote: If there was no land, I don't think there would be any tides.

Actually, from this article on lunar effects on tides, it looks like there would be more tidal effects if there were no land - at least for awhile. As it is, this article says that the effect the moon has on the tides is slowing down the Earth's rotation, and one day the same side of the Earth will always face the moon just as now the same side of the moon always faces the Earth - but I guess if there were no land, the rotation might not be effected.

Whenever I feel strangely wound-up, energetic, or anxious for no good reason (I've eaten, I'm unstressed about life, I'm not constipated), without fail I'll look into the night sky and see a full moon.

Matt:
"But anyway, this is all just my personal theory."

Well that's a pretty amazing theory. I like it all the more because you made it up. Have you ever read the work of Italo Calvino? I'm not much into science fiction, but I would take Calvino's incredibly intricate and complex sci fi crack baby fables any day of the week.

But surely macro environmental changes have an effect on living organisms. And I'm not talking about Western astrology either. Western astrology is, no offence, thoroughly retarded. Who cares about Leos. I just think that sensitive and aware human beings would be affected by elements outside of the micro-specific, in your face muggings and family drama.

No, it's not amazing. I was just watching the water one day and realized that smaller waves ride on top of bigger waves and that there's no limit to how big a wave can get. It all basically stems from that. I'm sure it's been thoroughly debunked by someone.

No, I haven't read any Calvino.

I don't think it's impossible for the moon to affect us in a similar but more indirect way as it affects the water. I think it's possible the crime increases during a full moon and that it can be explained by the fact that there's a little more light at night during a full moon and that could give criminals a boost in confidence or alertness or something like that. But I don't dispute that there could be some other cause for that and other moon-aligned phenomena. There could be thousands of ways the moon affects us for all I know, but the only two I'm aware of are the moon affects the tides and the light affects our eyes.

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:

Matt Gregory wrote: If there was no land, I don't think there would be any tides.

Actually, from this article on lunar effects on tides, it looks like there would be more tidal effects if there were no land - at least for awhile.

Yeah, I think I was totally wrong there. The more I think about it the less sense it makes.

As it is, this article says that the effect the moon has on the tides is slowing down the Earth's rotation, and one day the same side of the Earth will always face the moon just as now the same side of the moon always faces the Earth - but I guess if there were no land, the rotation might not be effected.

Yeah, I can see how the lopsidedness of the earth's mass will eventually sync up with the moon.

The Moon is just a big rock. Surely any gravitational effect would be small compared to riding up and down in an elevator.

Yeah, I understand your point about the elevator and acknowledge the value of its logic. But I feel it a bit close-minded (in the introverted or self-obsessed way) to think that things only affect us on the specific, small scale, and tangible level. I think one of the biggest occurrences that is telling of and influential to living organisms occurred 4.55 billion years ago – the big bang. In my opinion everything that occurred after that is just an unfolding and evolving of the various manifestations of effects from that one major cause. But maybe that’s too obvious or wouldn’t interest someone who doesn’t think beyond the tangible occurrences that are in your face ie riding an elevator. And NO I don’t think that extra light has anything to do with anything, that example is either used to be condescending (the more likely case) or maybe people are really too blind to see anything more significant associated with a full moon.

AlyOshA wrote:or maybe people are really too blind to see anything more significant associated with a full moon.

Or there is nothing significant associated with a full moon, in regards to human behavior. Except for the fantastical ideas one's imagination comes up with.

Nick Treklis wrote:Or there is nothing significant associated with a full moon, in regards to human behavior. Except for the fantastical ideas one's imagination comes up with.

The bigger question is: How does it matter? It isn't like we can stop the moon from orbiting so. More police can be assigned during a full moon if more aggressive behavior is shown during that time - so it can be helpful in scheduling... Appearantly no need for extra psych staff at that time, though... As for the tides... well that's already been worked out for centuries - people in cetain areas away from the eauator have warning horns that the tides are coming in, whereas places closer to the equator don't have such dramatic tides... and i'm sure that as the earth and moon sync up, it will happen gradually enough that people will make adjustments as we go.

Uh, yeah - how does it matter? He said it was just a curiosity, but even curiosity implies something.

I can't help but think that overly skeptical people are devoid of creativity and possibility. If it weren’t for creative and curious people there would be no innovation and progress -- in science especially.

How does it matter? Well to me it reconciles why I feel a strange sensitivity to higher cosmic occurrences, it would explain why I feel different during a full moon, either it is fantasy or there is something happening that has yet to be definitively discovered, and that discovery will be impossible unless someone has an open enough mind to inquire.

PS also I just like to fight about issues that are near impossible to win.

alyosha wrote: I can't help but think that overly skeptical people are devoid of creativity and possibility. If it weren’t for creative and curious people there would be no innovation and progress -- in science especially.

Perhaps it is due precisely to a fellows very fanciful and newagey inclinations that his actions have not been marked by any significant contribution to collective progress and innovation -- in science especially.

"Perhaps it is due precisely to a fellows very fanciful and newagey inclinations that his actions have not been marked by any significant contribution to collective progress and innovation -- in science especially."

I'm not quite sure I understand. Are you speaking in general terms as I was above or are you referring to me specifically? Would you please elaborate?