GENIUS FORUMS

EXAMINING THE HOSTS
- A transcript from The Hour of Judgment radio series -
Copyright (c) 1995 Kevin Solway & David Quinn
Guests:

Kevin Solway - Sage
David Quinn - Sage


Host: Dan Rowden - Freelance philosopher

Dan: Hello, and welcome to the penultimate edition in this series of The Hour of Judgment. My name is Dan Rowden, and I'll be your host for this evening. Now through the course of these programs we've heard regular hosts, David Quinn and Kevin Solway, put a number of people under the analytical spotlight - diverse people, eminent people, experts in their given fields of endeavour: priests, professors, Buddhist monks and masters, scientists, psychologists, feminists, and even one who claims to teach the highest wisdom - all of them critically scrutinized by this pair of self-professed sages. Well, tonight it's their turn. It's high time, I think, that their claims of wisdom and spiritual authority were put under that very same spotlight. And so, tonight, good evening to David and Kevin.

Kevin: Good evening to you, Dan.

David: G'day, Dan.

Dan: And should I say, welcome to your program! Now, the first thing I want to ask you is precisely what it is that you value. Why do you have these values, and how did you arrive at them?

Kevin: Well, should I start answering that one, David?

David: Yes, go on, Kevin.

Kevin: Well, being an egotist - a person who desires to be happy - I wanted the greatest happiness of all. This goes back to my early teens. And the greatest happiness is the thing which lasts the longest - the happiness which lasts the longest. Now the thing that lasts the longest of all is, of course, the Truth. You can be a football hero, you can be a pinball wizard, but these things don't last. Some five year old kid will come along, for example, and get the high score on the pinball machine. So you're not going to be the best at ordinary things in the world. But when it comes to Truth . . . Truth is something that never changes. And once you know the Truth, it's something that's with you for the rest of your life. It is insurmountable. So, personally, Truth is the thing I value above all, because it gave me the greatest amount of happiness.

Dan: So, basically, you're saying that you value something that gives you permanent satisfaction.

Kevin: That's right.

Dan: Okay, what about you, David?

David: Well, I value Truth above all as well, but I think I came to it differently to Kevin. I was more motivated in a negative sense, rather than any striving for perfect happiness, because I never conceived of that in my younger days. I was more motivated by a fear of being in error. I didn't like being insecure about being uncertain in my knowledge. I was brought up to be a total moron. For the first twenty years of my life, I was a moron. I was fully into sport, and I didn't have any intellectual aims in any way. It was only when I reached about twenty that I began to explore away from sport. I began getting more into aesthetics - exploring sunsets, music, drugs, and all that sort of thing. In fact, I was becoming a bit of a dropout. And then I began to think philosophically. So the first time I began to think philosophically wasn't until I reached about twenty, and it was like I was being born at that stage. It was around that time that I met Kevin, and it was through Kevin that I heard ideas about cause and effect and the spiritual path. And in an instant flash I saw the totality of the spiritual path, Ultimate Reality, the whole thing, and I haven't looked back since.

Dan: So, basically, what you're saying is that for both of you this philosophic path, in many respects, was just a flight from suffering.

Kevin: For sure. For me anyway, yes.

David: Yes, definitely, but I didn't have this conception of perfect happiness. I mean, I was brought up with no ideals at all. I met nobody who had any ideals. I was brought up in the Catholic tradition, and the Catholic priests were just incredibly mediocre people. I mean, I remember one Catholic priest in particular - and there are many examples in my schooling from which I could choose - and his aim in life was to go to Heaven so he could play golf all day! This didn't inspire me at all. I mean, I was already playing golf all day in my teens! So I met nobody in my childhood who taught me to have ideals.

Dan: Yes, okay. This concept of the flight from suffering was certainly my experience. I just couldn't handle people's inconsistency, their irrationality, the general insanity of the world. And the only way I could escape from that, I intuited, was to actually understand it.

David: Totally. I found golf was a great teacher. Golf was my first teacher. I was a member of a golf club, quite a prestigious one in Brisbane, and there were politicians and doctors and lawyers and so forth with whom I played rounds with every weekend. I got to know some of them quite well, and I just found them to be incredibly mediocre people. They puffed themselves up - they thought themselves to be great men, successful men - but their lives were incredibly petty. All they thought about was from one week to the next. It was very disappointing.

Dan: Yes, all they thought about really was running away from suffering. The point that I want to make is that, in a qualitative sense, it seems to me that everyone is trying to escape suffering. So what makes you guys better or superior to anyone else?

Kevin: Well, I think I had a bigger ego. I wanted to avoid suffering more than everybody else. I'd seen that nobody else had done a very good job of it. Even those people who had largely escaped suffering, and who do live very happy lives - still, even they seemed incredibly fragile to me. I could see a thousand ways to upset their apple cart. And I wanted to place myself in a position, egotistically, that was perfectly safe, that had absolute security, that nothing in the whole universe could upset. And, of course, there is only one thing that is like that - and that's Truth. But, of course, the closer and closer I came to Truth, the less and less egotism was a factor in my desiring it.

David: So by the time you reach this goal of complete security you no longer have any need of it.

Kevin: Exactly. The egotism is so powerful it has consumed itself in its greed for perfection.

Matt Gregory wrote: You can experience all kinds of things, but if you're not capable of judging your experiences to be true or false, then you're like a boat trying to navigate by looking at the waves.

average wrote:Dan its interesting to note that both Kevin and David have irrational and emotional foundations for their decisions to follow and continue their way of life. While they like to praise rationality above all else, and degrade emotions completely. ;]

Dan Rowden wrote:

average wrote:Dan its interesting to note that both Kevin and David have irrational and emotional foundations for their decisions to follow and continue their way of life. While they like to praise rationality above all else, and degrade emotions completely. ;]

Yes, it is interesting, ironic and yet logical, much as it is interesting, ironic and yet logical that the goal of destroying the ego originates in ego.

average wrote:Because if this is the case, then in order for one to begin this sort of thinking and walk the "Ultimate Path" one must make an irrational choice, much like a leap of faith.

average wrote:I'm also pretty certain that they are unconscious of this fact, and they actually want to believe they have more noble reasons for being engaged with such things.

Nick Treklis wrote:

average wrote:Because if this is the case, then in order for one to begin this sort of thinking and walk the "Ultimate Path" one must make an irrational choice, much like a leap of faith.

In my case I never made an irrational choice to become a sage, actually I never made any choice it all. It's kind of like crawling around in the dark and then one day you happen to run into a lamp. Naturally I flipped the switch and suddenly everything was illuminated. From that point on, God willing, I refuse to ever crawl through the darkness again.

average wrote:I'm also pretty certain that they are unconscious of this fact, and they actually want to believe they have more noble reasons for being engaged with such things.

Well, I never made the decision to become a sage like you would make a decision to become a teacher or engineer. It's just a matter of catching a glimpse of Ultimate Reality and then running with it. It alters your life in every aspect, nothing else compares to it.

average wrote:A decision was made, you just haven't reflected upon it enough I think. Or we could say you stumbled upon it 'randomly', which is essentially irrational.

Dan Rowden wrote:There is no logical basis for the original or primary goals and values we adopt (it's simply a matter of disposition and karma). After that certain necessary goals and values will appear (like the one for the Xian you stated).

average wrote:

Matt Gregory wrote: You can experience all kinds of things, but if you're not capable of judging your experiences to be true or false, then you're like a boat trying to navigate by looking at the waves.

I just want to say that an experience can not be true or false.

True/False applies to your conceptions and statements regarding the experience. For example you see an object flying around. The experience of 'seeing' in this case is a brute fact, its not true or false, it just is. When you start conceptualizing the experience then you can worry about if your conception is true or false.

average wrote:I disagree in a sense Matt, yes conceptualization can be part of experience and it usually is - but it is not necessary and it comes after experience - first you are conscious, then experiences happen, and then if you like you can label them, and then conceptualize them. Etc.

Atleast thats how it is in my personal case, I know I can experience things simply as they are without projecting any sort of idea or concept onto them. And I can also experience things through conceptualization, there is a subtle difference I'm sure you can notice it too.

And what do you mean by an "enlightened" experience and a 'deluded' one? Give me examples.

Dan Rowden wrote:There is no logical basis for the original or primary goals and values we adopt (it's simply a matter of disposition and karma). After that certain necessary goals and values will appear (like the one for the Xian you stated).

average wrote:

Dan Rowden wrote:There is no logical basis for the original or primary goals and values we adopt (it's simply a matter of disposition and karma). After that certain necessary goals and values will appear (like the one for the Xian you stated).

This is what undermines a very important part of the philosophy I see advocated by David, Kevin, and others on this forum.

The fact that you share the same foundational basis (irrational values) for your belief system (which is what it is) as does a Christian or anyone else you disagree with, says something very profound to me in the context of your system-of-thought.

Often I see one person claiming so-and-so is delusional because they don't understand the "basic nature of reality" or "causality" or subscribe fully to "rationality" or whatever. But this isn't the real issue, to me this is like the Muslim calling the Christian is delusional because he doesn't accept some teaching in the Quran. Yes you believe you have found the Truth, but so does Mr. Christian, and Mr.Islam, but really once you recognize that you have committed the same irrational leap into a certain system-of-thought, how can you honestly criticize them and not laugh at yourself at the same time??

Cory Duchesne wrote: I am not a hypocrite for regarding others as inferior for doing things which I my self don't do.

Dave Toast wrote:

Matt Gregory wrote: It's not irrational to have values, but any primary value is arrived at non-rationally. You have to start somewhere. If you disagree then provide an example of what you think is a value that is rational yet not based on some other value.

If I were to stumble upon a pot of gold, how exactly would the fact that I have a pot of gold be undermined by the fact that I stumbled upon it?

Further, if, as I'm sitting on my pot of gold, I see someone sitting on a big pile of pyrites and crowing about the value of their big old pile of gold, how exactly is it unjustified for me to chuckle at them and not at myself?

Average: This is what undermines a very important part of the philosophy I see advocated by David, Kevin, and others on this forum.

The fact that you share the same foundational basis (irrational values) for your belief system (which is what it is) as does a Christian or anyone else you disagree with, says something very profound to me in the context of your system-of-thought.

DT: If I were to stuble upon a pot of gold, how exactly would the fact that I have a pot of gold be undermined by the fact that I stumbled upon it?

Average: Often I see one person claiming so-and-so is delusional because they don't understand the "basic nature of reality" or "causality" or subscribe fully to "rationality" or whatever. But this isn't the real issue, to me this is like the Muslim calling the Christian is delusional because he doesn't accept some teaching in the Quran. Yes you believe you have found the Truth, but so does Mr. Christian, and Mr.Islam, but really once you recognize that you have committed the same irrational leap into a certain system-of-thought, how can you honestly criticize them and not laugh at yourself at the same time??

DT: Further, if, as I'm sitting on my pot of gold, I see someone sitting on a big pile of pyrites and crowing about the value of their big old pile of gold, how exactly is it unjustifed for me to chuckle at them and not at myself? (edit: simply because of the fact that we both stumbled upon our piles)

Average: If you happen to stumble upon the pile called Rationality, then you are faced with an ironic sort of existence that is quite funny indeed. You might as well chuckle at yourself, --> since your pile advocates rationality and the means by which you arrived at your pile was irrationality.