GENIUS FORUMS

I thought of the two christian afterlife situations, and came to a conclusion that both are the same.

Judging by the fact that God forgives all sinners, then all who were not intentionally trying to oppose God would be forgiven and let into Heaven. On the other hand those who would not be forgiven would be those who were intentionally trying to harm/oppose God, in that case they would be sent into Hell, which is basically Heaven for them cause it is surrounded with people they are like and God's absense is felt. So wouldn't both parties be satisfied in this sense?

Unless Lucifer intentionally deceived these fallen angels, in order to spite God.

(basis for "Paradise Lost")

Lucifer sure inspired some good poetry, too.

ie. 'Lucifers Address To The Sun'.

I wonder why it's (only) either one or the other, aside from the "good" and "bad" and the source for each of these.

I mean, according to their faith, once you're dead, you inevitably arrive at one of two places (heaven or hell). Obviously we get judged before being to hell, according to their doctrine, but is it like a corridor from which you cannot escape? A divine holding cell? If you have no physical presence, what's to stop you from drifting, willing yourself (?), away from heaven and going somewhere else? God's "will?"

After it's all said and done, what keeps you in heaven or hell? Why can't you leave hell---does the "power" or will of Satan keep you "down there?" Or is God the actual warden down there?

And---especially---in heaven, what keeps you there? Can't you say, "Gee, Lord Almighty, this place is nice and all, but I'd like to explore the universe for a while. I'm allergic to clouds, anyway..." or something? Or is it inconceivable that one would want to leave heaven?

Is one even allowed to leave? (Are both places prisons?)

Anyway, if those are my choices, I'd like a third option.

You guys ought to read the book of Enoch. Now that would spur threads galore!

There are almost too many presuppositions that are needed to even have this conversation in a chat room. If none of us claim to have ever been to either heaven or hell then we are talking about matters of belief based on evidence, and no one has all the evidence required to make a definitive case on the existance, specifics and/or fairness of heaven or hell.

With that said I'll say this... in a spirit of humility (I hope!)...

If hell is the absence of God, then that seems to imply that living here on earth is not hell. So, we can agree that here on earth God has a presence of some kind.

If God is a good, just and loving God (my personal presupposition based on the bible) then all of us living here on earth experience, either knowingly or unknowingly, some part of God's love. Though I must say that experiencing God's love in the presence of FREEWILL is not to fully experience God's love on a moment to moment basis (if indeed we sometimes choose sin over God 0 which I believe we all have or do at times). This means that though most of us have evidence (i.e. experience) in both directions (i.e. we've experienced both love based and hate based/tinged situations) we can only guess what the extremes of heaven or hell must be like. With that in mind we can however make personal decisions based on whether or not our experiences with love and hate are good or bad. Most of us (aside from maybe some mentally ill people) have a basic understanding and sense of agreement on what is good and what is bad (not morally but in terms of pleasent or unpleasant). I believe the sane would choose the better (more pleasant) of two choices.

Whether or not it's fair if we are sent to one place or the other upon death is another issue. It seems to me that if that thought makes you angry or scared then that could mean that some part of you is in a state of rebellion or confusion as to what it will take to get you to either heaven or hell, and that maybe it's somewhat out of your control. This is where humility comes in. Humility is the opposite of pride. Pride is what made Satan who he is, and pride, unchecked, could send you to his house to hangout forever... and from I can gather it's no fun hanging out with a being that is so full of pride.

This is why for it all to be actually fair (whether or not you go to heaven or hell) it can't be a contest. So it can't be about abilities or it can't be about how good you are. In many cases, so much of that is based on things that are out of our control (our genes, our childhoods etc.). This is why it must be free and available to all. It must be about belief.

Get ready for my beliefs:-):

Jesus Christ offers this freedom. He says that if you believe that He is God, and that He died on the cross for everyone's sins (to even the score) then that belief gets you into heaven and transforms your life for the better here on earth. This offer is up for EVERYONE. If you wonder or care about what happens after death I want to encourage you to check out what the bible teaches about Jesus. He seeks to accept you where you are no matter what your life looks like now or what you've done in the past. Just think... if this is all true (and there's so much evidence showing that it is - though faith is needed to carry you the rest of the way) then it's a great deal... better than 2 Tacos for $.99 at Jack In The Box and much more nutritious and long lasting.

Regarding the idea of whether or not you can leave either heaven or hell to cruise around and check things out. This is a masochistic idea for those in heaven... and I personally belief masochistic tendancies are reactionary to previous pain or are perversions of good things... which if you're in the heaven that I believe exists you are healed of all those very things that encourage masochism.

If you're in hell wanting to cruise to heaven, it's understandable. Satan is a jerk and a bully. So as far as I know once you deny God here on earth (IF you truly know who and what God is, i.e. what you are denying) then you're in Satan's hands by your own choice. Freewill can be your best friend or the catalyst of your biggest regret.

Disclaimer: I don't pretend to be able to express myself in the most clear way... I need music to go with the words to get closer to real expression of my thoughts ands feelings:-)... so please forgive any odd or flat out wrong sentence structures... I hope this reads as a reflection of what was in my head when writing it.

:-)

If you have no physical presence, what's to stop you from drifting, willing yourself (?), away from heaven and going somewhere else? After it's all said and done, what keeps you in heaven or hell? Why can't you leave hell---does the "power" or will of Satan keep you "down there?" Or is God the actual warden down there?

Excellent questions. The truth is, hell needn't be forever, and no one keeps you there. People go there of their own choosing, but it is a choosing based on confusion. The confusion is so deep, that those in hell do not even realize they are there, for the most part. Living in hell, they hear absurd rumors about the possibility of going to hell. This helps to keep them there. As you have rightly noticed, there is no way to keep a spirit chained to a place. Therefore the chains are all mental.

As you have rightly noticed, there is no way to keep a spirit chained to a place. Therefore the chains are all mental.

It seems there is a way to keep a spirit chained to a place: a human body. Here on earth our spirit is chained inside the body. Our spirit is affected by the body and vice versa. When your spirit is under stress you can get a headache which your spirit doesn't enjoy. Conversely you can get a headache from some environmental source and your spirit feels stress as a result. CHAINED.

Your spirit lives "in your body" until the body dies. Who's to say that a spirit in and of itself has any way of being mobile at all? We have no proof that it has any built in "engine" to take it anywhere... it could be that a spirit just sits and exists (as it seems to do in our bodies) self aware and waiting to be moved.

It is possible that upon death our spirits are only mobile by way of either God or Satan whoever the person chooses to be with...

Just a thought...

:-)

It seems there is a way to keep a spirit chained to a place: a human body.

That is an interesting point. You question whether even when the spirit departs the body, is it free? Certainly, people with near death experiences, experience joy and freedom upon departing the body. But what then?

The supposition of heaven and hell beliefs are sometimes about gruesome torture. But we are supposed to get an eternal body after death, and that is not compatible with it being of heavy flesh as we have now. Yet, without a physical body such as we have, it is unlikely that such physical torture can happen. It is merely a lot of lies to scare the people into greater depths of hell or unconsciousness. Fear decreases awareness. People are kept in hell more than anything else by lowered awareness. They are also kept there by masses of illogical and conflicting dogmas. These paralyze the mind.

I don't know that the spirit is really affected much by the physical body. While on mushrooms I was aware that "the body has a headache", but considered it irrelevant. I don't think I was fully in my body. It was rather rubbery. Sensation greatly decreased.
I don't think it is true that you can't get out, but getting out is rare, hard to do, and knowledge of anything worthwhile like that is greatly hidden. That's the way life is in hell.

Yet, without a physical body such as we have, it is unlikely that such physical torture can happen.

mmm... yeah I love how this is all guessing... but not blind guessing... cool thoughts...

I do think though that dreams give us a good sense that even without our body involved we seem to be able to "feel" or percieve pain... a nightmare can seem to bring pain at times whether it's emotion based or even if something supposedly physical happens to you in a dream you "feel" it sometimes... maybe the memory of having a physical body is enough to twist the soul into feeling something... like those phantom pains people feel who have an amputated limb...

Plus we all know that there's nothing worse than mental anguish... it seems to eclipse pain of the flesh... and pain of the flesh is lessened when the soul is in good shape...

:-)

I do think though that dreams give us a good sense that even without our body involved we seem to be able to "feel" or percieve pain... a nightmare can seem to bring pain at times whether it's emotion based or even if something supposedly physical happens to you in a dream you "feel" it sometimes...

I've noticed the opposite. That's one reason I find the 'toon' movies like Who Framed Roger Rabbit so interesting. In our dreams, we are like toons. I have fallen from great heights and gone splat, but it never really hurts. I carried my 6' 2" (ex) husband a couple of blocks in one dream, and had the strength. It is only the emotions about the situation that are similar. One remembers what it is like to have a heavy body and expects it to be like that, so the emotions get worked up, but it doesn't amount to anything. I am scared when I fall, maybe do feel a little sick, but not much else.

Plus we all know that there's nothing worse than mental anguish... it seems to eclipse pain of the flesh...

I don't know that it does...have you ever spent time under torture? Many, many Christian evangelizers use fear of physical pain as their main evangelizing tool. It's their best argument for belief in God. They graphically describe physical pain, and sometimes they even state that the pain will be more intense in hell than anything experiencable here on earth. I find it interesting that these sermons, which are recorded history, come so soon after the inquisition, which is probably the deepest depths of evil to which humanity has ever fallen.

In other words, the whole thing was hell from top to bottom. They pretend to talk of a future hell. But escape from hell isn't about a place, it's about a state of consciousness. The inquisitors were living in hell, they believed in nothing but hell, and they took the Christian religion straight into hell, from which is has not emerged.

If none of us claim to have ever been to either heaven or hell

Hell is all around us.

If hell is the absence of God, then that seems to imply that living here on earth is not hell.

God is not absent anywhere, but awareness of God is nearly absent here. Even a tiny bit of awareness brings consolation and hope.

So, we can agree that here on earth God has a presence of some kind.

There is a range of experience available here, some hell, some paradise. I would call life on earth the vestibule of hell, which is where Dante consigned the agnostics.

If God is a good, just and loving God (my personal presupposition based on the bible) then all of us living here on earth experience, either knowingly or unknowingly, some part of God's love.

A. The Bible teaches, esp. the OT, a capricious, unjust, small-minded Devil of a God, unworthy of human love or admiration. At the same time of course, it teaches sublime truths and uplifting ideas of God. But it is an evil brew, and even a small amount of a noxious substance can ruin the taste of a vat of good product.
B. The 'unknowing' part of your statement is the kernel of truth. If people are unconscious of God's love in their lives, why should they be held responsible - forever - for what they don't understand?

Though I must say that experiencing God's love in the presence of FREEWILL is not to fully experience God's love on a moment to moment basis

So what will happen to your freewill in heaven?

I believe the sane would choose the better (more pleasant) of two choices.

True, and therefore, anyone not making the right choice is insane, and should be excused based upon that. Or is the modern judicial system which excuses peope by reason of insanity more humane than God's eternal plan for life in this universe?

Whether or not it's fair if we are sent to one place or the other upon death is another issue. It seems to me that if that thought makes you angry or scared then that could mean that some part of you is in a state of rebellion or confusion as to what it will take to get you to either heaven or hell, and that maybe it's somewhat out of your control.

It goes way beyond angry or scared. It makes my heart bleed that such slander goes under the name of a good, just and loving God. God will send the unwilling to hell? Can the sins of a finite lifetime deserve infinite punishment? Can the omnipotent and eternally invulnerable have the smallness of mind to take offense at what may not even be under their control? Can the infinite be angry with the vulnerable, confused and scared beings which he is responsible for creating? Being born into a situation of imperfection, we are to be punished for that imperfection, by one who has no imperfection? If this is kind, just, or loving, please tell me what might be cruel and unjust?

This is where humility comes in. Humility is the opposite of pride. Pride is what made Satan who he is, and pride, unchecked, could send you to his house to hang out forever... and from I can gather it's no fun hanging out with a being that is so full of pride.

The pride is all here, now. Satan is here, now, infiltrating religion. It's not about the future. It's never about the future. Thinking it is about the future is one of the chains that keep you in the vestibule.

This is why for it all to be actually fair (whether or not you go to heaven or hell)

No way for this scenario to be fair.

So it can't be about... how good you are.

That's the ONLY thing that matters.

It must be about belief.

Now that's the silliest thing I ever heard.

Jesus Christ offers this freedom. He says that if you believe that He is God,

So that isn't freedom, is it? The payment is belief. Belief really isn't something that can be commanded. For a lot of people, there are things they just can't believe. Look at the magnitude of the threat here. Believe, or else. And the else is: an eternity of hopelessness, despair and pain. So it isn't an offer for everyone, but only those who comply, and for various reasons, it is almost impossible for most people to comply, and those who do comply, tend to be born in a favored position.

The problem is, I can't honestly love or respect the author of such a dismal plan. No matter if I believe every word of it, I would be in a permanent state of horror, and would wish to cease existing, to have my soul blotted out forever, rather than live in a universe in which there is only tragedy and misery for ever and ever and ever. There is little difference between heaven and hell in this plan, and little difference between God and Satan.

And so here is yet another clue that something is wrong with this picture - there is way too much of despair, way too little about God that is truly uplifting or admirable. You know how sometimes when your dreams get too ridiculous and you realize you must be dreaming?

Whereas if the forces of evil had infiltrated the religion, this is exactly what it would look like.

and that He died on the cross for everyone's sins (to even the score)

This right here is one of the main cornerstones of the brainwashing structure. Christianity, throughout history, has not always taught this. They taught that Jesus gave us an example to follow, that through the example of his divine, universal, all-forgiving and all-sacrificing love for humankind, our hearts would reconcile with God. The idea that God demanded a blood sacrifice, that he is satisfied and brought to pleasure by someone's death because he is keeping a score, and is offended, makes a mockery of everything Jesus said about him, and means that God does not forgive. Under this plan, God never forgave humanity, but accepted payment. There is nothing noble about accepting payment for a debt.

So Jesus taught us not only to forgive all wrongs, but to love our enemies, and most Christian sects negate that by teaching that God the father does not and will not ever forgive.

Before I respond to what you've said (I enjoyed reading your responses)... and before I attempt to clarify what I've said (as I said earlier I don't claim to be great at explaining what is really going on in my mind)... I have to ask a question that sort of birthed in me first as a responsive emotion to your replies, and then as a more pointed thought. Please know I'm just seeking to understand the basis on which we're discussing this stuff... it's so charged with a certain mix subjectivity and objectivity that it's hard to know what is truly up:

Were your responses fueled by anger?

If so, do you feel like you know where all of it comes from?

Is it purely from a place of intellectual ideas or is from experience in your life, or if it's both, do you feel like you know what the details are of each source?

I ask because I know I personally have a tendancy to think I'm thinking first and feeling later (based on those thoughts), when sometimes it's really that I'm explaining feelings... and feelings can be very hard to explain or understand...

Just trying to find out if this conversation we find ourself in is ping pong or tennis... firecrackers or nuclear weapons...

The subject is undeniably serious but I guess it can be approached in many ways...

.....

:-)

I will say this real quick though:

There are countless so-called Christians that have done awful things in the name of Christianity. Wolves in sheeps clothing.

Evil at it's most grotesque is a distortion of good.

I just realized that in order for us to have this kind of 'back and forth' we both need to know something about each other.

You know I'm a believer. A follower of Jesus Christ.

I don't know about you... do you believe in God? If so what God? Do you believe Jesus was who He said He was?

These are super-important questions... they color everything.

:-)

Sleeping To The Noise wrote:I just realized that in order for us to have this kind of 'back and forth' we both need to know something about each other.

You know I'm a believer. A follower of Jesus Christ.

I don't know about you... do you believe in God? If so what God? Do you believe Jesus was who He said He was?

These are super-important questions... they color everything.

:-)

Why would the same words weigh differently by a believer or a non-believer? Isn't an objective, impersonal statement either true or false no matter who states it?

If Jane says the dog is black, and Joan says the dog is black, could you agree with Jane but disagree with Joan about whether the dog is black?

Hello Sleeping,

I probably should have made a disclaimer, that when I speak of Satan infiltrating church doctine, or dogmas that brainwash, I am not in any way holding you responsible. You seem like a fairly open person and I know you love Jesus. I wish something better for you.

But I am saying some pretty stark things. In the bluntest, most concise way I can put it, if you want to love God, you have got to jettison a lot of what they taught you. They have given you oil and water and they won't mix.

I'm not saying the life and sayings of Jesus aren't wonderful - I am saying that church doctrines have made a mockery of them. They teach that God is wicked, and this turns the hearts of people away from God. Look at the Jesus emphasis. Why is that? Why not the openhearted love for the Father, the source of all existence? I'd say the reason is that Jesus seems to be on our side and God doesn't.

I think it is very doubtful if Jesus openly declared himself to be God in the way that Christians believe, but it doesn't matter either way to my points.

Yes, you are right that awful things have been done in the name of religion, and while it is true that people can twist almost anything when they want to justify themselves, we have to look real hard at why certain doctrines have been so helpful in that regard. But I am not talking about the bad things in history.

I can tell you exactly where all this comes from. It comes from the Holy Spirit, which has taught me about God, and after which I understood that much doctrine I had been taught was false, and defames God. And I was always taught that the force of evil, or Satan, is active and clever.

Let us come at it this way. If you were Satan, wouldn't you want to turn the hearts and minds of people against God? Wouldn't you like to accomplish that by teaching slander about the nature of God and confusing the minds of the people with fears so that they are not permitted to think for themselves, and come to their own natural reactions to what they are told? Wouldn't church doctrine be a prime target of yours? Wouldn't it be great if you could do that secretly so that it wasn't easy to see? Can you really believe that the church is immune to the wiles of the devil? If so, you might be Catholic. Are you Catholic? If you are a protestant, then you already understand that the church had significant error. Well, I don't see where this error was corrected. They got rid of some, but not the core of it. They didn't see it.

My responses are not fueled by anger, but by dismay. Dismay that Jesus died for nothing because his main messages have been stolen by the bad guys, and dismay because God does not defend himself. God is the love of my life.

Forget the obsession over heaven and hell. It is a bondage. Come up to where there is no more fear of God than of the air you breathe. Come to where your love and gratitude to God the Father is beyond speech.

If you want this, you can't hold contradictory doctrines in your head. These doctrines make the heart hard, and a hard heart cannot be visited by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the means to know God.

Jesus said the wayward son is never evicted from the Father's estate, and is only bitter because of his own grasping and selfishness and ingratitude.

Jesus told us to be perfect like the Father in heaven who sends rain on the just and the unjust. But Christianity teaches that God the Father is angry and partial.

Jesus said love your enemies, and when they nailed him to the cross he said they should be forgiven because they didn't even understand what they were doing. But Christianity teaches that God the Father would not forgive humanity, until someone paid a debt. As Billy Graham put it, "God demanded a death."

Jesus gave the example of the rich man who forgave a huge debt to one of his servants, simply because he asked. He didn't say that someone else should pay it. That wouldn't have made an interesting parable would it? "Well, there was this nice uncle and he paid the servant's debt, and so the rich man let him go." Big deal. When a debt is forgiven, no one pays it.

We are told to forgive 70 times seven, to love our enemies, to feed the poor like each one was Jesus himself. This level of compassion and expansion of narrow ego is not exactly easy, so why should Christians exert themselves when God the Father himself does no such thing? What will I do with my soft and compassionate heart when there are people going to everlasting despair? A compassionate person cannot abide such a thing. I ask Christians about it, and get some horrifying, hard-hearted resonses. Nonchristians are hardly ever this hardhearted because it just isn't natural - but Christains have been assured from the pulpit that they will feel no pity while seeing their own spouses and children in flames. In what way can such sermons remind you of the life and times of Jesus? It doesn't, does it? If you are able to be happy while others suffer, then you cannot also be a compassionate person as Jesus taught over and over to be.

Another thing modern people have begun to say is that they will not know about the people in hell. Well, that is great. So for all eternity, instead of ever greater knowledge and understanding, you are going to be kept like an infant, unaware of what is really going on, of how God is actually operating, of your very own loved ones existing in indescribable hopelessness. So you have more knowledge now than you will then. And your happiness depends upon God not telling you something pretty important. How can it be that God has something to hide from the people in heaven?

In response to Elizabeth Isabelle,

I see what your saying... and I agree, IF we're talking about things like the color of dogs etc. things that can be lets say proven in a court of law or something...

BUT, It colors the conversation because we are talking about things about which faith and belief play a role... I can have a similar discussion with someone who is a Christian and and we don't need to question certain things regarding whether or not Jesus was who He said He was etc. etc. But when talking with someone who doesn't believe that I would have to deliniate between subjects regarding belief and subjects regarding tangible entirely provable things...

Sleep-

Perhaps I oversimplified, but I believe that what I was referring to would be the same. I meant the core principles of right and wrong, good and evil...

Things you have said:

Christians that have done awful things in the name of Christianity. Wolves in sheeps clothing.

Evil at it's most grotesque is a distortion of good.

These are true for believers and non-believers alike.

Things Io said:

This right here is one of the main cornerstones of the brainwashing structure. Christianity, throughout history, has not always taught this. They taught that Jesus gave us an example to follow, that through the example of his divine, universal, all-forgiving and all-sacrificing love for humankind, our hearts would reconcile with God. The idea that God demanded a blood sacrifice, that he is satisfied and brought to pleasure by someone's death because he is keeping a score, and is offended, makes a mockery of everything Jesus said about him, and means that God does not forgive. Under this plan, God never forgave humanity, but accepted payment. There is nothing noble about accepting payment for a debt.

So Jesus taught us not only to forgive all wrongs, but to love our enemies, and most Christian sects negate that by teaching that God the father does not and will not ever forgive.

Again, valid points about the state of Christianity whether or not she were a believer... and that is not all, but I would be quoting everything Io said if I were to point out all that I saw that did not seem to be any more or less true whether or not she were a believer.

Would you show me a quote where you would take it differently if she were or were not a believer? If there is a difference, I would like to understand it.

Jesus told us to be perfect like the Father in heaven who sends rain on the just and the unjust. But Christianity teaches that God the Father is angry and partial.

Jesus said love your enemies, and when they nailed him to the cross he said they should be forgiven because they didn't even understand what they were doing. But Christianity teaches that God the Father would not forgive humanity, until someone paid a debt. As Billy Graham put it, "God demanded a death."

In the above quote (if I'm understanding her right), she's coming from a viewpoint where God is separate from Jesus in some way... or that God and Jesus contradict each other. Christians believe in the Trinity... Father, Son, Holy Spirit... three as one. There are many things that can be said about how they relate etc., but to separate them out and argue points about their separateness creates other problems if you don't believe they are in fact one whole with three different means of expression (so to speak). BTW I'm not an expert on the Trinity... this is my understanding of it.

Also, it's good to note that there are things that distinguish the old testament from the new testament... one big one is that after Jesus came we were able to invite the Holy Spirit into our own "hearts" which created a whole new way to experience God... a more intimate personal way. In the old testament people experienced God in ways we can't understand first hand. Christians today live in a different reality in that sense.

Knowing someone's beliefs while you "talk" is a way of honing in on what we are actually talking about to avoid arguing every point at every turn (which is fine too)... a discussion amongst fellow believers assumes certain beliefs so you don't spend time discussing whether or not those beliefs are valid. Belief sends you down one set of tunnels... a lack of belief sends you down another, that's all I'm saying. When you're writing the words then waiting, for who knows how long, for a response, a little knowledge goes a long way.

What is a little puzzling is that there seems to be some level of umm... lets say 'estranged belief' on her part... she doesn't outright say Jesus was a liar and a phony but she doesn't say He was and is God (and Jesus can only be either a nutcase, a liar, or God (based on what He claimed, historically). Her message, which seems slightly blurred (by what read to me like very impassioned words about it all) creates quite the odd combination... it's a bit hard for me to choose exactly which part to respond to... and first off it seems like maybe she just needs a hug:-) I think maybe that's what Jesus would do... start with a hug and go from there:-)

......................................................................

By the way... I've been wondering... do you guys consider yourselves "genius"? Is that a prerequisite for adding to this forum? It makes me smile to think that we're on here doing this (while at the top of the page it says: GENIUS FORUM). And all you have to do is make up a user name and password:-) it seems to imply some intellectual arrogance... but it's fun either way... Brains seek other brains to make invisible sandcastles with in a virtual playground...

No, Sleeping - it's actually kind of an unusual description of "genius" just like they have an unusual description of "woman."

This is the link they gave me when I asked about the "genius" part of Genius Forums:
Quotes on Genius

Well, to put it succinctly, this is a forum about Genius, not one for geniuses.

If people read the welcome threads they would get the idea, but no-one ever seems to do that :(

Brains seek other brains to make invisible sandcastles with in a virtual playground...

That's actually the smartest thing I've seen posted on this forum so far. Kudos.

Elizabeth,

The idea that God demanded a blood sacrifice, that he is satisfied and brought to pleasure by someone's death because he is keeping a score, and is offended, makes a mockery of everything Jesus said about him, and means that God does not forgive. Under this plan, God never forgave humanity, but accepted payment. There is nothing noble about accepting payment for a debt.

The debt was "paid" BY GOD. God as man (Jesus) died for our sins. That is noble... unless there's a question about Jesus not being God himself (the Trinity thing).

I believe God does forgive... he forgave through a human incarnation of Himself... and what better way for we humans to understand God than for Him to come on down and show us how to be godly as humans.

Here's something interesting about Christ's death and how it works...C.S. Lewis wrote this in his book Mere Christianity (which I highly suggest - especially as a substitute for talking with me:-):

"The central Christian belief is that Christ's death has somehow put us right with God and given us a fresh start... Theories about Christ's death are not Christianity: they are explanations about how it works. Christians would not all agree as to how important these theories are. My own church - the Church of England - does not lay down any one of them as the right one. The Church of Rome goes a bit further. But I think they will all agree that the thing itself is infinitely more important than any explanations that theologians have produced. I think they would probably admit that no explanation will ever quite adequate to the reality. But as I said earlier in this book, I am only a layman, and at this pointwe are getting into deep water. I can only tell you, for what it is worth, how I, personally, look at the matter.

"On My view the theories are not themselves the thing you are asked to accept. Many of you no doubt have read Jeans or Eddington. What they do when they want to explain the atom, or something of that sort, is to give you a description out of which you can make a mental picture. But then they warn you that this picture is not what the scientists actually believe. What the scientists believe is a mathematical formula. The pictures are there only to help you understand the formula. They are not really true in the way the formula is; they do not give you the real thing only something more or less like it. They are only meant to help, if they do not help you can drop them. The thing itself cannot be pictured, it can only be expressed mathematically. We are in the same boat here.We believe the death of Christ is just that point in history at which something absolutely unimaginable from outside shows through into our ownworld. And if we cannot picture even the atoms of which our own world is built, of course we are not going to be able to picture this. Indeed, if we found that we could fully understand it, that very fact would show it was not what it professes to be - the inconceivable, the uncreated, the thing from beyond nature, striking down into nature like lightening. You may ask what good it will be to us if we do not understand it. But that is easily answered. A man can eat dinner without understanding how food nourishes him. A man can acceot what Christ has donewithout knowing how it works: indeed he certainly would not know how it works until he has accepted it."
(C.S. Lewis, Book 2, Chapter 4: "The Perfect Penitant", from Mere Christianity)

He goes on to shed some light on this (and many other things) with great imagination and detail... If you haven't read it, I hope you'll check it out... I'll buy it and send you a copy if you want.


:-)

Dan Rowden wrote: If people read the welcome threads they would get the idea, but no-one ever seems to do that :(

I did!
Though admittedly not for the reason you'd like.