GENIUS FORUMS

http://www.theabsolute.net/minefield/j15.html

Brilliant, is what came to mind. Along with questions, such as: What is it? What is the Ultimate Reality?

Please. Will the three speakers, please explain?

Thank you.

Oh, this is a discussion about ultimate reality. It's not actually the ultimate one. :(

You got my hopes up. Welp, maybe if you opened this to more than the moderators, it could be fresh and interesting, and not something that's already thoroughly explained by them on their various websites.

I was afraid it may get disorganized and off topic, but what the hell, go for it. Everyone's included, please.

THIS is the ultimate reality.

For everything else, theres mastercard.

Haha, wow, I honestly don't think I can beat that.

LOL

See what I mean?

Point taken, but I think you should still leave it open. "QRS" aren't the only people in this forum who are capable of serious metaphysical discussion.

O.K. then: "QRS" - becomes - "QRSS".

Hows that:)

This ones great:

We people live within a tall container. If you can jump half a metre, you are regarded as talented. If you can jump a little over half a metre, then you are a superman and a genius. But jump clear out of the container - and you are not seen!

What is the Ultimate Reality?

The word "Reality" so often misused that reality almost becomes whatever the hell a person wants it to be. A person who is "avoiding reality" is usually seen as someone who does not often interact with other humans: a thoughtful, quiet introvert is commonly considered someone who has limited access to reality.

But why would you call something as mundane as "ordinary day-to-day human affairs" reality? The tedious hum of humans is hardly reality. That's probably why you saw the reality spoken of here given the rather modest adjective "ultimate". Learning the truth about reality is not as impressive as learning the truths about how ordinary day-to-day human affairs work. That is work for psychologists, not philosophers. A person who wants to learn about ultimate reality needs to ignore people and simply focus on what is ultimately real -- what's real when you strip away all the nonsense and bullshit.

What that leaves is the very bare bones of thought, which is as close as you can get to ultimate reality. If you are going to be dealing with the bare bones of thought, you make sure that it's truthful, and the only method of dealing with truth (by design) is through logic. Logic was invented to think about truth. If someone speaks about the truth about ultimate reality without using logic, you can be pretty much assured that what he's saying is so much smoke from his ass.

One of the principle ideas of logic is to be absolutely certain of your definitions. Since reality is defined to be so many things, but we merely want to know about ultimate reality, the key is first to define what we mean by ultimate reality. You cannot possibly know a thing about ultimate reality until you know what it is you are talking about. Ultimate reality, then, is the bare bones of reality. It's what's ultimately true. It's what exists at the most fundamental, ultimate level. There is nothing penultimate about ultimate reality. It is the end of the road.

Therefore, ultimate reality is that which causes all things to exist. It's what is everywhere: its in all places, and at all times. It never changes. It is that which when we wake up in the morning we can be assured will still be there -- hell, it will still be there even if we don't wake up in the morning.

And that is the definition of ultimate reality. It is a self-defining word that explains itself through its own analysis.

What the hell is that!

It seemed like you were getting somewhere, but never arrived.

How the hell can anyone figure this out?

Quote:

The word "Reality" so often misused that reality almost becomes whatever the hell a person wants it to be. A person who is "avoiding reality" is usually seen as someone who does not often interact with other humans: a thoughtful, quiet introvert is commonly considered someone who has limited access to reality.

I agree. So, it's a way of thinking. Ultimate thinking?

what's real when you strip away all the nonsense and bullshit.

Can you be more specific, please.

What that leaves is the very bare bones of thought

Logic was invented to think about truth.

I want to think logically about truth. How do I proceed? What is the absolute truth then?

One of the principle ideas of logic is to be absolutely certain of your definitions

and...

It's what's ultimately true. It's what exists at the most fundamental, ultimate level. There is nothing penultimate about ultimate reality. It is the end of the road.

Therefore, ultimate reality is that which causes all things to exist. It's what is everywhere: its in all places, and at all times. It never changes. It is that which when we wake up in the morning we can be assured will still be there -- hell, it will still be there even if we don't wake up in the morning.

Energy?
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Mr. Salyzyn, you have given me the definition of the words, ultimate reality. Help me out will ya?

It seemed like you were getting somewhere, but never arrived.

If you ask what ultimate reality is, and you don't know what ultimate reality is, you are going to find the answer weird. It couldn't possibly be any other way.

How the hell can anyone figure this out?

Logically: by carefully watching definitions, learning processes of thinking, and... above all... being absolutely LOGICAL.

If you ask what ultimate reality is, I will show you how a philosopher will arrive at a definition. The method itself is part of the understanding of truth -- by seeing it in action, you grow to use it yourself.

If you want to know what some of the transcendental features of reality are, I can always analyze the definition and pull out some metaphysical truths.

For example: reality is omnipresent and everything that exists is causal. Voila. You can find that in my last post, where I defined ultimate reality.

I agree. So, it's a way of thinking. Ultimate thinking?

Yes, thinking about the ultimate nature of existence is a way of thinking. It is slightly different than the thinking that most people use, primarily because it is much more precise, and attempts never to abandon logic.

Can you be more specific, please.

The bare bones of thought is logic. By logic, I mean that invention which is commonly associated with Aristotle, and has been formalized in recent years. It involves an understanding of tautologies (propositions that are true by definition), contradictions (propositions that are false by definition), syllogisms (two premises which force a conclusion to be true or false), definitions, fallacies, mathematics, and other such things that deal with truth. I primarily consider bivalent logic (True and False) to be the most essential form of "logic", so I refer specifically to that, although I'm aware of other forms.

I want to think logically about truth. How do I proceed? What is the absolute truth then?

It is absolutely true that a thing cannot both be and not be. A=A, and thus A cannot equal not-A.

That is the primary absolute truth, and I would call it the most logical phrase there is.

Energy?

Energy is part of ultimate reality, yes, but it is not all of it.

Quote:

Logically: by carefully watching definitions, learning processes of thinking, and... above all... being absolutely LOGICAL.

If you ask what ultimate reality is, I will show you how a philosopher will arrive at a definition. The method itself is part of the understanding of truth -- by seeing it in action, you grow to use it yourself.

*If you want to know what some of the transcendental features of reality are, I can always analyze the definition and pull out some metaphysical truths.

For example: reality is omnipresent and everything that exists is causal. Voila. You can find that in my last post, where I defined ultimate reality.

So, by being absolutely logical about everything one finds absolute truths, which are ultimate reality.

*(above)Does that not mean, thinking in general? Please, show some (or some more) examples.

One does not create reality for oneself, one is implant into an already fixed reality, which one adapts to.
In other words, reality is the soil, consciousness is the seed and the reality of it and change for it, is causal...And the ability to explain it all is Ultimate Reality?

Yes, thinking about the ultimate nature of existence is a way of thinking. It is slightly different than the thinking that most people use, primarily because it is much more precise, and attempts never to abandon logic.

The ultimate nature of existence, is change, because that is what is constant.

tautologies

For example Ultimate Reality?

syllogisms

What do you mean?

I feel like I don't know anything, but I'm sure I can learn. Now, what do I need...I'm sure it has been stated, but what else...

So, by being absolutely logical about everything one finds absolute truths, which are ultimate reality.

Absolute truths are facts that are always true, no matter what. Ultimate reality is another way to say "everything that exists".

To give a comparison: If you were to state that "ultimate reality is not nothing whatsoever", you will have created an absolutely true proposition. This absolutely true proposition is not, however, ultimate reality. It merely describes ultimate reality.

*(above)Does that not mean, thinking in general? Please, show some (or some more) examples.

Not all thinking is logical. Emotions, for instance, are not logical, although they have content. However, the thought "all bachelors are unmarried men" is logical. It deals with truth, not with values.

One does not create reality for oneself, one is implant into an already fixed reality, which one adapts to.

Yes, although some people have a habit of calling their perceptions reality. That is a very weak definition of the word, and hardly describes everything that exists.

In other words, reality is the soil, consciousness is the seed and the reality of it and change for it, is causal...And the ability to explain it all is Ultimate Reality?

Not quite. I'm not good with metaphors, so I'll just say it without them. Reality is everything, consciousness is what we use to perceive things, everything in reality is causal, and the understanding of ultimate reality is enlightenment. The ability to explain absolute truths usually implies an understanding of reality, and therefore enlightenment.

The ultimate nature of existence, is change, because that is what is constant.

Yes, causality is one of the most essential features of reality. A thorough understanding of causality is practically identical with enlightenment. I say "practically" only to leave wiggle room in case I think of something else later -- not because there actually is anything other than causality that a person needs to understand.

For example Ultimate Reality?

Ultimate reality is defined through tautologies, yes. That is the only way to guarantee that it is absolutely certain.

What do you mean?

A syllogism is two premises and a conclusion.

For example:
PREMISE: If I am not moving, I am standing still.
PREMISE: I am not standing still.
CONCLUSION: Therefore, I am moving.

I feel like I don't know anything, but I'm sure I can learn. Now, what do I need...I'm sure it has been stated, but what else...

Logic, causality, enlightenment. I can't think of anything else important, although reading interesting philosophy books helps. Being interested in philosophy enough to know which ones are interesting is useful.

So, Ultimate Reality is the absolute truth about (dare I say) everything (omnipresent). One begins to understand, by seeking answers (that are already there) through logically thinking about cause and effect. Through cause and effect, one delves deeper and deeper into one's own consciousness (not that outside consciousness shit, right?), uncovering the very fabric of exists (constant), the bare bones.

[There, the definition has been defined...However, I understand there is a lot more to it. What good books do you recommend, Mr. Salyzyn?]

Quote:

In other words, reality is the soil, consciousness is the seed and the reality of it and change for it, is causal...And the ability to explain it all is Ultimate Reality?

Not quite. I'm not good with metaphors, so I'll just say it without them. Reality is everything, consciousness is what we use to perceive things, everything in reality is causal, and the understanding of ultimate reality is enlightenment. The ability to explain absolute truths usually implies an understanding of reality, and therefore enlightenment.

I think I understand why you don't like metaphors. The same metaphor may be applied in various ways to different things, which makes it none specific by appearance (I know I'm lagging), therefore, it's not very precise. Which, goes against philosophy.

I did word my metaphor incorrectly, it should have been:

Incorrect:

n other words, reality is the soil, consciousness is the seed and the reality of it and change for it, is causal...And the ability to explain it all is Ultimate Reality?

It doesn't matter whether we explain Ultimate reality or not. It simply doesn't change. UR is always there, it is fixed - always has been and always will be. So, what you said: UR is what is underneath all the nonsense and bullshit of reality.

Not all thinking is logical. Emotions, for instance, are not logical, although they have content. However, the thought "all bachelors are unmarried men" is logical. It deals with truth, not with values.

So, you are comparing thinking with emotions...?

I don't know why I thought about this, but would you say a flip of a coin is random?...Is it not logical if the coin shows either heads or tails?

Yes, although some people have a habit of calling their perceptions reality. That is a very weak definition of the word, and hardly describes everything that exists.

I see what you mean and I agree. However, perceptions are like the window into insight of reality...It's how we learn to describe everything that exists? (It is our most basic tools, so to speak.)

Yes, causality is one of the most essential features of reality. A thorough understanding of causality is practically identical with enlightenment. I say "practically" only to leave wiggle room in case I think of something else later -- not because there actually is anything other than causality that a person needs to understand.

There is something more, because we cannot understand every cause...What else?

Tautologies

Heh. No wonder I said you started but never arrived, with the definition of UR - Tautologies are "circular reasoning." You even said that in a way:

And that is the definition of ultimate reality. It is a self-defining word that explains itself through its own analysis.

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Would you say emotions are necessary, like hair - past necessity...? (running on fumes)

Through cause and effect, one delves deeper and deeper into one's own consciousness (not that outside consciousness shit, right?), uncovering the very fabric of exists (constant), the bare bones.

Yes, by studying causality, and trying to get a perfect understanding of how it works, one can eventually come to an understanding of the Infinite -- something far more majestic than any Christian God.

There, the definition has been defined...However, I understand there is a lot more to it. What good books to you recommend, Mr. Salyzyn?

Personally, I enjoyed Nietzsche's Thus Spoke Zarathustra, and Plato's Symposium, although sometimes the more challenging philosophy (Immanuel Kant, David Hume, John Locke, Aristotle, etc.) can be very good practise for thinking. Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching is immensely re-readable, until you finally grasp that the entire book is the first two lines. The Diamond Sutra is interesting, and can provide a good way to tie Eastern and Western philosophy together.

So, you are comparing thinking with emotions...?

Emotions are a type of thought. They have content and intention. They are just not processed down to logic.

I don't know why I thought about this, but would you say a flip of a coin is random?

No, a flip of a coin is not exactly random. The result is determined by a large number of factors. It is caused to land on heads or tails. It is only random if randomness is not considered a cause, but a tendency.

However, perceptions are like the window into insight of reality...It's how we learn to describe everything that exists?

Yes, we need to use perceptions to gain insight into reality. There is simply no other method; perceiving logic, however, is immensely useful for gaining an understanding of reality.

There is something more, because we cannot understand every cause...What else?

The implications of the fact that everything has a cause is very far-reaching. It goes into the depths of everything in the entire universe.

Heh. No wonder I said you started but never arrived, with the definition of UR - Tautologies are "circular reasoning." You even said that in a way:

Yes. A=A. The definition was what I wrote.

Would you say emotions are necessary, like hair? (running on fumes)

Emotions are necessary to gain a proper valuing of truth -- enough to care to pursue it -- but a person who thinks logically does not need emotions to think.

Quotes:

Yes, by studying causality, and trying to get a perfect understanding of how it works, one can eventually come to an understanding of the Infinite -- something far more majestic than any Christian God.

I agree, but within one's own consciousness and by one's own conscious reasoning. I understand how our consciousness' are connected in the sense that we perceive one another and are influenced by the external changes/stimuli; such as, right now you have an influence on my thoughts and I on yours. Our consciousness' are connected but only within our own consciousness What I'm trying to say is I don't see how some people may believe Consciousness is a whole (totality(?)consciousness), something we all tap into. Bottom line: It's all happening within ourselves...The external influences everything in the internal...?

Personally, I enjoyed Nietzsche's Thus Spoke Zarathustra, and Plato's Symposium, although sometimes the more challenging philosophy (Immanuel Kant, David Hume, John Locke, Aristotle, etc.) can be very good practise for thinking. Lao Tzu's Tao Te Ching is immensely re-readable, until you finally grasp that the entire book is the first two lines. The Diamond Sutra is interesting, and can provide a good way to tie Eastern and Western philosophy together.

Thanks, I'll be sure to take a look at some, if not all, of those at the nearest, Chapters.

I do have one, which I got 5-7 years ago and did not understand the dialect very well, Its call:
(I've got it with me now, and as I flip through, it doesn't seem so weird) "The Basic Works of Aristotle". Edited by Richard Mckeon. Introduction by C.D.C. Reeve.

Emotions are a type of thought. They have content and intention. They are just not processed down to logic.

Animals have emotion, do they not? For instance: Fear - animals react, without thought. Humans - plan. It seems like emotions are one notch below thoughts on an evolutionary scale. Evolution is like the adding on and fine tuning.

No, a flip of a coin is not exactly random. The result is determined by a large number of factors. It is caused to land on heads or tails. It is only random if randomness is not considered a cause, but a tendency.

I think you mean: It is only random if randomness "is" considered a cause. Another, a tendency has a cause. So, is this a short coming of philosophy, because there are to many variable, which we cannot..

[Now freewill comes to mind?lol]

Yes, we need to use perceptions to gain insight into reality. There is simply no other method; perceiving logic, however, is immensely useful for gaining an understanding of reality.

Sorta like the sixth sense.

The implications of the fact that everything has a cause is very far-reaching. It goes into the depths of everything in the entire universe.

Right, but what other way is there...it wouldn't make any sense...It gets very sci-fi after that.

Emotions are necessary to gain a proper valuing of truth -- enough to care to pursue it -- but a person who thinks logically does not need emotions to think.

Kinda like law of inertia, and our planet in constant motion around our sun. Emotions give us that start, so to speak. (whatever)

I think you are getting the hang of this. This should be more than enough to work with.

Before I took a break from reading, I was ploughing through Aristotle's "Nicomachean Ethics". If your collection contains that, I would recommend it. Although all of Aristotle's works have had a lot of influence on Western thought, I would say that it is the one with the most timeless of his ideas. It is still a solid ethical system -- there are things to criticize, but there is also a lot to say in favour of it. His Organon also contains a lot of fundamental logic, but even I find it incredibly boring. A modern textbook on formal logic is more than sufficient. His Politics is dated, although historically interesting, but passages from his Rhetoric are still often assigned in both English and Law classes, so that might be worth taking a look at.

Other than that, you're on your own. That's where my knowledge of Aristotle ends.

Yeah, I've got it. It says: "ETHICA NICOMACHEA (nicomachean Ethics)(complete)" - The book has 1487 pages and it's in small print!