GENIUS FORUMS

Chapter 20.
"Subhuti, what do you think, should one look for Buddha in his perfect physical body?"

"No, Perfectly Enlightened One, one should not look for Buddha in his perfect physical body. Why? The Buddha has said that the perfect physical body is not the perfect physical body. Therefore it is called the perfect physical body."

"Subhuti, what do you think, should one look for Buddha in all his perfect appearances?"

"No Most Honored One, one should not look for Buddha in all his perfect appearances. Why? The Buddha has said perfect appearances are not perfect appearances. Therefore they are called perfect appearances."

I posted the quote in response to a series of posts in another thread about whether a fat person could be enlightened.

maestro wrote:Indeed, if someone is fat, means that he is not doing things intelligently,

and is driven by pleasure.

He is harming his body with an addictive habit.

Carl G wrote: Doing things? You mean he is not running his life completely rationally, has not attained 100% Buddhahood? Are you saying someone can be semi-enlightened and overweight, but not totally enlightened?

Carl G wrote: Is this proven? How are we defining "fat"? How many pounds over one's ideal weight would constitute a physically harmful situation?

maestro wrote:

Carl G wrote: Doing things? You mean he is not running his life completely rationally, has not attained 100% Buddhahood? Are you saying someone can be semi-enlightened and overweight, but not totally enlightened?

I think even a semi enlightened one cannot be fat, he cannot persist in wrong habits.

Carl G wrote: Is this proven? How are we defining "fat"? How many pounds over one's ideal weight would constitute a physically harmful situation?

There is harm in excess above what is needed. A mere question of moderation and balance.

Carl G wrote: This is illogical. If one is semi-enlightened, then by definition one can still "persist in wrong habits."

Many of the wisest people I have met or know of are/were significantly overweight.

Carl G wrote:Gurdjieff was not about balance and moderation, at all. He was about excess and extremism.

One cannot discern from the weight and/or shape of another human being whether that human being is attached (craving or rejecting) to food beyond moderation.

What were the reasons for hiding this highest wisdom from the commoners?
Here are few hints:
The Hermetic Arcanum

15. Let the studious Reader have a care of the manifold significations of words, for by deceitful windings, and doubtful, yea contrary speeches (as it should seem), Philosophers wrote their mysteries, with a desire of veiling and hiding, yet not of sophisticating or destroying the truth; and though their writings abound with ambiguous and equivocal words; yet about none do they more contend than in hiding their Golden Branch.
Tractatus Aureusi [Golden Treatise of Hermes]

"Sons of Science! For this reason are philosophers said to be envious, not that they grudged truth to religious or just men, or to the wise, but to fools, ignorant and vicious, who are without Self-Control and benevolence, lest they should be made powerful, and able to penetrate sinful things. For of such the philosophers are made accountable to God, and evil men are not admitted worthy of this wisdom."

The Book of the Revelation of Hermes
interpreted by Theophrastus Paracelsus

First published in 1608 under the auspices of Benedictus Figulus in his
"Golden and Blessed Casket of Nature's Marvels".

Concerning the Supreme Secret of the World

[...] By Avicenna this Spirit {of Truth} is named the Soul of the World.
[...] And as the Soul is in all the limbs of the Body, so also is this Spirit in all elementary created things. It is sought by many and found by few. It is beheld from afar and found near; for it exists in every thing, in every place, and at all times. It has the powers of all creatures; its action is found in all elements, and the qualities of all things are therein, even in the highest perfection. By virtue of this essence did Adam and the Patriarchs preserve their health and live to an extreme age, some of them also flourishing in great riches.
When the philosophers had discovered it, with great diligence and labour, they
straightaway concealed it under strange tongue, and in parables, lest the same should become known to the unworthy, and the pearls be cast before swine. For if everyone knew it, all work and industry would cease; man would desire nothing but this one thing, people would live wickedly, and the world would be ruined, seeing that they would provoke God by reason of their avarice and superfluity. For eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, nor hath the heart of man understood what Heaven hath naturally incorporated with this Sprit.

"The man is insane who writes a secret in any other way than one which will conceal it from the vulgar and make it intelligible only with difficulty even to scientific men and earnest students. On this point the entire body of scientific men have been agreed from the outset, and by many methods have concealed from the vulgar all secrets of science. For some have concealed many things by magic figures and spells, others by mysterious and symbolic words. For example, Aristotle in the Book of Secrets says to Alexander, 'O Alexander, I wish to show you the greatest secret of secrets; may the Divine Power help you to conceal the mystery and to accomplish your aim. Take therefore the stone which is not a stone and is in every human being and in every place and at every time, and it is called the Egg of the Philosophers, and Terminus of the Egg.' Innumerable examples of the kind are to be found in many books and divers sciences, veiled in such terminology that they cannot be understood at all without a
teacher. The third method of concealment which they have employed is that of writing in different ways, for example, by consonants alone, so that no one can read it unless he knows the words and their meanings. In this way the Hebrews and the Chaldaeans and Syrians and Arabs write their secrets. Indeed, as a general thing, they write almost everything in this way, and therefore among them, and especially among the Hebrews.
Important scientific knowledge lies hidden. For Aristotle in the book above mentioned says that God gave them all scientific knowledge before there were any philosophers, and that from the Hebrews all nations received the first elements of philosophy. .. .
In the fourth place, concealment is effected by commingling letters of various kinds; it is in this way that Ethicus the astronomer concealed his scientific knowledge by writing it in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin letters in the same written line. In the fifth place, certain persons have achieved concealment by means of letters not then used by their own race or others but arbitrarily invented by themselves; this is the greatest obstacle of all, and Artephiushas employed it in his book On the Secrets of Nature. In the sixth
place, people invent not characters like letters, but geometrical figures which acquire the significance of letters by means of points and marks differently arranged; these likewise Artephius has used in his science. In the seventh place, the greatestdevice
for concealment is that of shorthand, which is a method of noting and writing down as briefly as we please and as rapidly as we desire; by this method many secrets are written in the books of the Latin-using peoples. I have thought fit to touch upon these
methods of concealment because I may perhaps, by reason of the importance of my secrets, employ some of these methods, and it is my desire to aid in this way, at least you, to the extent of my ability."

R. Bacon, "Epistle on the Nullity of Magic"

The Bible

It is not easy to penetrate the inner meaning of the Bible, which is heavily veiled word of God.

Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable. So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet:
"I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world."

The Bible, Matthew 13:34-35

His disciples asked him what this parable meant. He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, 'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'

The Bible, Luke 8:9-10

He who has ears, let him hear.
The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"
He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him."

This is why I speak to them in parables:
"Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
"You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.

But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.
For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it."

The Bible, Matthew 13:9-17

"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces."

The Bible, Matthew 7: 6

maestro wrote:

Carl G wrote:Gurdjieff was not about balance and moderation, at all. He was about excess and extremism.

His excess was only to get the machine in the state of harmony, thereafter the excess and extremism would be moot.

maestro wrote:Well to have the machine working perfectly in the midst of high chaos is the ultimate goal,

so enlightenment is not about the om chanting sage.

To reach this state one has to intentionally suffer a lot, but overeating does not seem like an intentional suffering. It is an unnecessary suffering which must be avoided at all costs (according to Gurdjieff/Ouspensky).

Carl G wrote: I think the workaday world-free QRS might disagree.

Carl G wrote: How about the A=A thinking sage? Kinda the same.

maestro wrote:Well to have the machine working perfectly in the midst of high chaos is the ultimate goal, so enlightenment is not about the om chanting sage. To reach this state one has to intentionally suffer a lot, but overeating does not seem like an intentional suffering. It is an unnecessary suffering which must be avoided at all costs (according to Gurdjieff/Ouspensky).