Richard Dawkins V. Ted Haggard
Gotcha, you don't want anyone using Google to see your googley eyes. Sorry, reminded of the old cartoon with the song " Bar-ney Google, with the goo-goo-googley eyes." Anyway, you're funny, spouting your opinions, using your real name and face, and still thinking you're somehow anonymous. You're like the girl in a string bikini who thinks she's covering up something.sschaula wrote:I don't mind anyone that regulary posts here knowing what I look like. I just don't want someone to look up my name on a search engine and be able to easily find out what I am about.
Good Citizen Carl
Beingof1,
I join my voice with those who have already said it would be a shame for you to leave it at this. If you have the time and energy, I'm sure there are others who would benefit from further discussion (especially between you and David) of the fundamental issues you've raised.
Lord knows it would be better than listening to Heckle and Jeckle (aka Kowtaaia and Beebuddy cackling like a couple self-satisfied old crows).
I join my voice with those who have already said it would be a shame for you to leave it at this. If you have the time and energy, I'm sure there are others who would benefit from further discussion (especially between you and David) of the fundamental issues you've raised.
Lord knows it would be better than listening to Heckle and Jeckle (aka Kowtaaia and Beebuddy cackling like a couple self-satisfied old crows).
Good Citizen Carl
Carly,
So I guess I'm more like the girl in a string bikini who just realized what she was wearing and is currently in the closet changing into something less revealing.
Uhhhh...what are you saying? I simply have realized how easy it would be for girls to type in my full name and research me. I'm sure a few have done it already. I'd rather not have them know what I'm thinking.Gotcha, you don't want anyone using Google to see your googley eyes. Sorry, reminded of the old cartoon with the song " Bar-ney Google, with the goo-goo-googley eyes." Anyway, you're funny, spouting your opinions, using your real name and face, and still thinking you're somehow anonymous. You're like the girl in a string bikini who thinks she's covering up something.
So I guess I'm more like the girl in a string bikini who just realized what she was wearing and is currently in the closet changing into something less revealing.
- Scott
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Elizabeth Isabelle
- Posts: 3771
- Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:35 am
I mentioned that exact scenario to Steven a month and a half ago and you're now just realizing it?
milli-kowtaaia,kowtaaia wrote:You're just mad because up until now, we never comment on what you post. It's that unimportant.Carl G wrote:
Lord knows it would be better than listening to Heckle and Jeckle (aka Kowtaaia and Beebuddy cackling like a couple self-satisfied old crows).
It's good to know you are on the job, as judge and jury. How 'bout I buy you a candy bar?
Good Citizen Carl
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Ryan Rudolph
- Posts: 2490
- Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 10:32 am
- Location: British Columbia, Canada
Here is a funny interview between Stephen Colbert and Richard Dawkins:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuXpysYE ... ed&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuXpysYE ... ed&search=
No thank you. Do you eat candy?Carl G wrote:milli-kowtaaia,kowtaaia wrote:You're just mad because up until now, we never comment on what you post. It's that unimportant.Carl G wrote:
Lord knows it would be better than listening to Heckle and Jeckle (aka Kowtaaia and Beebuddy cackling like a couple self-satisfied old crows).
It's good to know you are on the job, as judge and jury. How 'bout I buy you a candy bar?
Well, I hopped onto the forum tonight just for fun and stumbled into a few threads, and in each of which I find something I have often thought about I have already posted little essays or whatever. And for whatever reason, I feel like sharing them. So here is my contribution to the evolution business - a playful one might I add, from tradition asian philosophical sources morphed into a folk-tale type format.
The Birth of our World - a fanciful version
THE BIRTH OF OUR WORLD
“The REALM OF DESIREâ€
Lord Buddha:
"Long indeed is the æon: it is not easy to calculate by saying: 'So many years, so many centuries, so many millenia, so many hundred thousand years'."
"But can an illustration be given, Lord?"
"It can," replied the Exalted One. "Just as if there were a mighty mountain crag, four miles long, wide and high, without a crack or cranny, not hollowed out, one solid mass of rock, and a man should come out once every hundred years, and with a piece of soft silk should lightly rub it just once: sooner would that mighty mountain crag be worn away by this method, sooner be used up, than the æon.
"Thus long, brother, is the æon: of æons thus long, many an æon has passed away, many a hundred æons, many a thousand æons, many a hundred thousand æons." [1]
After the previous kalpa ended, since there was no longer a physical world, many beings were born into a mental, or god, realm which still exists today. Here, even though they had no bodies as such, every experience was a delightful combining of light and joy. As they became more familiar with this existence and developed different textures and levels of joy, a universe gradually developed made mainly of air and then gas and then water. As subtle movements between these substances gradually gathered in momentum and strength, just as the gods discrimination of textures of joy, of light, of perfume and of sounds waxed in intensity and variety, so increasingly more powerful winds gradually caused a sense of form to solidify as actual matter; at first this was like light bubbly scum, then like skin on top of rice pudding, and then like a rich, creamy custard, beautiful in taste, colour and smell. So as the gods appreciation of joy developed more textures and weight so did their surrounding realm gradually become more and more substantial and solid.
The gods at that time were still without bodies, living off joy alone, shedding their own light. The sun, moon and stars did not yet exist, nor did time, as we know it. However, as they gradually learned to appreciate colour, sounds, smells taste and even touch, slowly they began to nourish themselves on these more solid forms of joy that were formed from appreciating their environment and gradually they even developed a craving for these experiences. Consequently, their bodies became more and more solid, and they lost their radiant luminosity, so the sun and the moon appeared as did the cycles of time as we now know them because of a gradual waxing of the cycle of alternating degrees of higher pleasures and lower pleasures which could be compared one from another. So working in this way together, the increasingly earthy appetites of the god beings whose original existence consisted of simple joy alone without even a body, gradually created both a world with many different things to enjoy, such as sea, earth, clouds, sun, moon, stars, wind, grass, trees, and many different types of fruits and vegetables. At the same time, their bodies became more and more solid; so much so, indeed, that they actually depended on physical food for survival. What first had been a purely mental pleasure had now become a necessity.
At first, the sort of fruits they could eat were somewhat magical. Each person had his own plant, which produced a corn-like fruit and each day; as one fruit was eaten, another would appear at the rate of one a day, which was all they needed. But gradually some people ate more than one fruit a day and some fruits were different in different parts of the world so also these god-people became more and more different from each other. Those whose foods and appetites were less heavy, were less coarse and dark than those who were eating more solid substances. So individuals began to differ and then to compare each other and those that felt more beautiful and superior developed vanity and pride and those who felt inferior or less beautiful developed anger and embarrassment.
At some point, when food and bodies had developed to be almost as solid as we know them now and a grain similar to rice had appeared, people were so used to comparing and making distinctions based on vanity that soon thereafter the organs of the male and female sex developed. After this, the faculty of comparing and choosing developed further into lust for members of the opposite sex, which alternates between great delight and anxiety. To protect their mates from others, they began to build houses and develop the idea of private property; and in order to eat the type of food that suited their particular type of appetites, sometimes they planted their own crops and then had to protect them from others lest they be stolen. They realised that in order to survive and protect themselves from thieves and wandering bandits, they gradually organised themselves into communities and created Kings and Queens to oversee their mutual protection. From satisfying simple, almost ethereal appetites, whole solid worlds and societies with greed and fear had evolved involving real suffering.
Along with pleasure from satisfying appetite, there was pain when appetite was unfulfilled or the bodies in which they experienced these things were hurt, or became sick, or grew old or died. At the same time that all these difficulties undoubtedly had been formed, nevertheless it was and is also true that life, in all its millions of forms and different experiences, is a magical, miraculous affair that, with hard work and an uplifted attitude, can be lived and enjoyed.
This is how we went from being long-lived god-beings living off mental joy alone, to struggling, suffering beings who have to be careful of our lives and our property. All of these developments took countless hundreds of millions of years and are still going on today, even as we speak. However, in this way, the night of space without beginning or end gradually gave way to the dawn of life, with all its myriad forms, colours, sounds, smells, touches, stars, planets, sun and moon, species, climates, races, cultures, thoughts, feelings and languages, gestures, tears and laughter. The story [2] is only just beginning.
[1] Samyutta-Nikaya, re-translated from "Some sayings of the Buddha†p 27 Shantarakshita, A survey of Buddhism.
[2] This story is based on traditional Tibetan folk tales.
http://samsara-nirvana.blogspot.com/200 ... rsion.html
(PS, not an attempt to get people to contribute to the blog, but there is other stuff there related if you like the above, that's all).
The Birth of our World - a fanciful version
THE BIRTH OF OUR WORLD
“The REALM OF DESIREâ€
Lord Buddha:
"Long indeed is the æon: it is not easy to calculate by saying: 'So many years, so many centuries, so many millenia, so many hundred thousand years'."
"But can an illustration be given, Lord?"
"It can," replied the Exalted One. "Just as if there were a mighty mountain crag, four miles long, wide and high, without a crack or cranny, not hollowed out, one solid mass of rock, and a man should come out once every hundred years, and with a piece of soft silk should lightly rub it just once: sooner would that mighty mountain crag be worn away by this method, sooner be used up, than the æon.
"Thus long, brother, is the æon: of æons thus long, many an æon has passed away, many a hundred æons, many a thousand æons, many a hundred thousand æons." [1]
After the previous kalpa ended, since there was no longer a physical world, many beings were born into a mental, or god, realm which still exists today. Here, even though they had no bodies as such, every experience was a delightful combining of light and joy. As they became more familiar with this existence and developed different textures and levels of joy, a universe gradually developed made mainly of air and then gas and then water. As subtle movements between these substances gradually gathered in momentum and strength, just as the gods discrimination of textures of joy, of light, of perfume and of sounds waxed in intensity and variety, so increasingly more powerful winds gradually caused a sense of form to solidify as actual matter; at first this was like light bubbly scum, then like skin on top of rice pudding, and then like a rich, creamy custard, beautiful in taste, colour and smell. So as the gods appreciation of joy developed more textures and weight so did their surrounding realm gradually become more and more substantial and solid.
The gods at that time were still without bodies, living off joy alone, shedding their own light. The sun, moon and stars did not yet exist, nor did time, as we know it. However, as they gradually learned to appreciate colour, sounds, smells taste and even touch, slowly they began to nourish themselves on these more solid forms of joy that were formed from appreciating their environment and gradually they even developed a craving for these experiences. Consequently, their bodies became more and more solid, and they lost their radiant luminosity, so the sun and the moon appeared as did the cycles of time as we now know them because of a gradual waxing of the cycle of alternating degrees of higher pleasures and lower pleasures which could be compared one from another. So working in this way together, the increasingly earthy appetites of the god beings whose original existence consisted of simple joy alone without even a body, gradually created both a world with many different things to enjoy, such as sea, earth, clouds, sun, moon, stars, wind, grass, trees, and many different types of fruits and vegetables. At the same time, their bodies became more and more solid; so much so, indeed, that they actually depended on physical food for survival. What first had been a purely mental pleasure had now become a necessity.
At first, the sort of fruits they could eat were somewhat magical. Each person had his own plant, which produced a corn-like fruit and each day; as one fruit was eaten, another would appear at the rate of one a day, which was all they needed. But gradually some people ate more than one fruit a day and some fruits were different in different parts of the world so also these god-people became more and more different from each other. Those whose foods and appetites were less heavy, were less coarse and dark than those who were eating more solid substances. So individuals began to differ and then to compare each other and those that felt more beautiful and superior developed vanity and pride and those who felt inferior or less beautiful developed anger and embarrassment.
At some point, when food and bodies had developed to be almost as solid as we know them now and a grain similar to rice had appeared, people were so used to comparing and making distinctions based on vanity that soon thereafter the organs of the male and female sex developed. After this, the faculty of comparing and choosing developed further into lust for members of the opposite sex, which alternates between great delight and anxiety. To protect their mates from others, they began to build houses and develop the idea of private property; and in order to eat the type of food that suited their particular type of appetites, sometimes they planted their own crops and then had to protect them from others lest they be stolen. They realised that in order to survive and protect themselves from thieves and wandering bandits, they gradually organised themselves into communities and created Kings and Queens to oversee their mutual protection. From satisfying simple, almost ethereal appetites, whole solid worlds and societies with greed and fear had evolved involving real suffering.
Along with pleasure from satisfying appetite, there was pain when appetite was unfulfilled or the bodies in which they experienced these things were hurt, or became sick, or grew old or died. At the same time that all these difficulties undoubtedly had been formed, nevertheless it was and is also true that life, in all its millions of forms and different experiences, is a magical, miraculous affair that, with hard work and an uplifted attitude, can be lived and enjoyed.
This is how we went from being long-lived god-beings living off mental joy alone, to struggling, suffering beings who have to be careful of our lives and our property. All of these developments took countless hundreds of millions of years and are still going on today, even as we speak. However, in this way, the night of space without beginning or end gradually gave way to the dawn of life, with all its myriad forms, colours, sounds, smells, touches, stars, planets, sun and moon, species, climates, races, cultures, thoughts, feelings and languages, gestures, tears and laughter. The story [2] is only just beginning.
[1] Samyutta-Nikaya, re-translated from "Some sayings of the Buddha†p 27 Shantarakshita, A survey of Buddhism.
[2] This story is based on traditional Tibetan folk tales.
http://samsara-nirvana.blogspot.com/200 ... rsion.html
(PS, not an attempt to get people to contribute to the blog, but there is other stuff there related if you like the above, that's all).
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Elizabeth Isabelle
- Posts: 3771
- Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:35 am
Sometimes I hate it when I'm right.Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:There's probably a stock market crash coming up pretty soon (actually more of a correction, but it's been such a bull run that it will feel like a crash), probably going to panic a lot of people right about that time, but the way you are phrasing it makes you sound like a madman rather than a prophet.Beingof1 wrote:There is a world crash coming in Feb-March of next year. Get this while you can.
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The best way to disprove the Abrhamic omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent and loving God is to simply bring up the Problem of Evil. For this problem still has not been solved without compromising the classical definition of this god. For I cannot see any benevolent and loving god who will allow evil to happen especially to people that don't have freewill.David Quinn wrote:Eternal Tom wrote:
Religous debates, much like moral debates seem pointless, since they aren't empirically proveable
I agree that debating religious beliefs which are rooted in empiricism (e.g. God is a big grandfather in the sky) is a waste of time. It is like debating whether aliens exist on other planets. There is no means of resolving the matter through simple discussion. It is ultimately a matter of science and empirical observation to resolve one way or the other, if indeed it can be resolved at all.
However, there is benefit in discussing those types of religious or philosophical issues which are purely logical in nature. For these can be resolved via discussion and logical analysis. And indeed, this is what Genius Forum is primarily about. (See below for an example.)
Which God are you talking about? The word "God" can refer to all sorts of different conceptions, some of which are empirical in nature (and therefore, as you say, unprovable), and some of which are purely logical in nature (and therefore capable of being analyzed and tested).In the same way: "God exists" cant really be rationally debated, since it (at least to me) seems empirically unprovable. All we can do is weigh up the pros and cons of the existance and see if the results are acceptable.
For example, if "God" were to be defined as the totality of all there is, then His existence would automatically be proven.
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Diebert van Rhijn
- Posts: 6469
- Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:43 pm
Nothing happens outside God and his will by definition, even by most definitions Christians use. This logically leads to the conclusion that ideas like benevolent, loving and evil are totally useless when applied to God himself.Faust13 wrote: For I cannot see any benevolent and loving god who will allow evil to happen especially to people that don't have freewill.
Knowledge of God however is often associated with benevolence, love and compassion. With good reason.
Um what? Actually Christians tells us that we have 'freewill' in order to make good choices over bad ones, so no some things God did leave for us to do. But this doesn't solve the problem why he doesn't intervene to stop evil happening to people who freely choose good, or for humans who simply don't know anything, i.e. a drowning baby.Diebert van Rhijn wrote:Nothing happens outside God and his will by definition, even by most definitions Christians use. This logically leads to the conclusion that ideas like benevolent, loving and evil are totally useless when applied to God himself.Faust13 wrote: For I cannot see any benevolent and loving god who will allow evil to happen especially to people that don't have freewill.
Knowledge of God however is often associated with benevolence, love and compassion. With good reason.
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Diebert van Rhijn
- Posts: 6469
- Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:43 pm
From a divine perspective, which is necessarily deterministic, freewill is an illusion. If one talks about the freewill of human beings, we're talking about how things look like from their perspective, where things are made to happen through a single, perceived decision maker.Faust13 wrote:Actually Christians tells us that we have 'freewill' in order to make good choices over bad ones, so no some things God did leave for us to do. But this doesn't solve the problem why he doesn't intervene to stop evil happening to people who freely choose good, or for humans who simply don't know anything, i.e. a drowning baby.
So the logical problems in this case start and end with the attempt to look at God as if he was like a human, or at a human as if he'd equal a god.
It makes it understandable the religious Jews started to attack Jesus when he claimed he and the father were one. It's opening Pandora's Box when taken at surface value only. Which was of course the problem with the Pharisees.