The Give and Take of Truth

One Moot Point · Post by **One Moot Point** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:26 am

If you could get more truth by not giving it away, would you? That would be enlightening, but it's tricky whether or not it would be an enlightened thing to do.

The CIA makes a regular practice of finding more truth by both outright lying and by not giving certain things away, but scientists hoarding truth can slow breakthroughs when one has one part of the puzzle and another has the other part. What do you do when all that matters is the truth? Would you lie to get the truth?

Carl G · Post by **Carl G** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:39 am

One Moot Point wrote:If you could get more truth by not giving it away, would you? That would be enlightening, but it's tricky whether or not it would be an enlightened thing to do.

The CIA makes a regular practice of finding more truth by both outright lying and by not giving certain things away, but scientists hoarding truth can slow breakthroughs when one has one part of the puzzle and another has the other part.

Your point is moot. You are talking about empirical truths, which essentially don't matter, at least, not in the greater scheme of things. CIA secrets and scientific "breakthroughs" are unimportant with regard to ultimate truth.

What do you do when all that matters is the truth? Would you lie to get the truth?

However, regarding ultimate truth, I lie all the time to get to the truth. That is, I put on a persona for other people, so that I may pursue truth in peace. If they knew what I was really thinking or if I spoke my mind I would probably be run out of town on a rail. The herd shuns those they deem don't belong.

One Moot Point · Post by **One Moot Point** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:44 am

Carl G wrote:The herd shuns those they deem don't belong.

Your point is not moot, my friend.

Matt Gregory · Post by **Matt Gregory** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:48 am

Peace? What the hell do you need that for?

Carl G · Post by **Carl G** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:51 am

What, you like to be hounded?

hades · Post by **hades** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:53 am

how silly.

Matt Gregory · Post by **Matt Gregory** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:29 am

Not particularly, but it can motivate you.

Trevor Salyzyn · Post by **Trevor Salyzyn** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:42 am

OMP

What do you do when all that matters is the truth?

You either learn the truth, or you fail in achieving what matters.

Would you lie to get the truth?

If you don't already have the truth, you don't have the capacity to lie. If you have the truth, and truth remains all that matters, you can decide whether lying or telling the truth is the best way to get others also to learn the truth. Since that decision will be based on your best understanding of another's psychology (in particular, their capacity for truth, and their ideal learning environment), there are no definite laws.

Katy · Post by **Katy** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:51 pm

I guess you have already made your decision, Elizabeth.

What are you looking for? Some kind of moral support telling you you were right to do that?

One Moot Point · Post by **One Moot Point** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:09 pm

Those who are well practiced at deception spot it most easily, don't they Katy?

Philosophaster · Post by **Philosophaster** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:06 pm

And those who can see IP addresses. ;-)

Unidian · Post by **Unidian** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:13 pm

Katy · Post by **Katy** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:20 pm

Actually, I was the slowest to figure it out. For some reason I believed you when you told David you were honest by default and 100% of the time. No one else believed you, even then. I guess I was the fool.

I don't know what I did to upset you, but please get over it. Realize that I don't hate you; I pity anyone as clearly mentally ill as you. Please get help.

Trevor Salyzyn · Post by **Trevor Salyzyn** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:24 pm

I must have dozed off or not cared... what did Eliza do?

Katy · Post by **Katy** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:28 pm

Trevor Salyzyn wrote:I must have dozed off or not cared... what did Eliza do?

Elizabeth told David she was honest 100% of the time and had no ego. Then when I disproved that she went and created a new screen name, "One Moot Point" and tried to pretend she didn't know me/us. When I called her on it, she went into a chat room and told me that I am "the one she is running from"

I don't know why.

Elizabeth Isabelle · Post by **Elizabeth Isabelle** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:34 pm

Katy,

Ever heard of this funny thing called growth? Obviously not, because here you go again, going out of your way, to try to make some huge personal drama involving me. One Moot Point was not going to give any personal details - obviously - and be a philosophy discussion only persona. Yeah, I did not cover my tracks too well because some small part of me wondered if maybe you were telling the truth when you said that you were not picking on me personally. Obviously you were lying because here we are again in a big old public drama - the same sort that you (and to a lesser extent, Pye) twisted my last thread from a perfectly good philosophical discussion into something personal - and then twisted it back on me. Even more grotesque is the fact that so many people went along with your proposal that it was all my doing.

I had some hope that maybe if people didn't have to look at a female name they could take OMP as a gender-neutral party, and if you were being honest in your statements about not trying to start drama, it might have worked - but I got some truth anyway about your motives.

The board will probably blame me for this again because I responded to you. Oh well, I have also observed the truth about the members here - most are not after the truth, they are either interested in chanting "men are inherently superior to women" or they are just out for a fight - except for the few that are just blind as bats (and a very few truth-seekers).

The only amusing thing I noted was that without me posting, there were more spam posts than member posts this week. Kevin must stay up all night deleting those things.

Elizabeth Isabelle · Post by **Elizabeth Isabelle** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:39 pm

Katy wrote:Elizabeth told David she was honest 100% of the time and had no ego. Then when I disproved that she went and created a new screen name, "One Moot Point" and tried to pretend she didn't know me/us. When I called her on it, she went into a chat room and told me that I am "the one she is running from"

I don't know why.

What a minute -what?

Elizabeth told David she was honest 100% of the time and had no ego. Then when I disproved that

What are you talking about? I recall the "no ego" part - but where did you come up with the rest of that?

Philosophaster · Post by **Philosophaster** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:43 pm

I have no ego! Listen to me, people! I am broadcasting my egolessness! Let us all discuss my lack of ego!

Steven Coyle · Post by **Steven Coyle** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:47 pm

That was pretty funny.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:53 pm

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:One Moot Point was not going to give any personal details - obviously - and be a philosophy discussion only persona.

Why? Regardless of whether we thought you were a male or female under the alias OMP, your lack of wisdom and deep-seated-ego shine through none the less.

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:What do you do when all that matters is the truth?

What are you asking us for oh wise, enlightened, and egoless Buddha?

Matt Gregory · Post by **Matt Gregory** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:00 pm

Philosophaster wrote:I have no ego! Listen to me, people! I am broadcasting my egolessness! Let us all discuss my lack of ego!

Katy · Post by **Katy** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:01 pm

I'm not going out of my way to cause drama. That's your department. Honestly, you're just not that important in my life. Other than occasionally getting a really good laugh at something like claiming to have no ego, I don't care. I just don't.

One of the things I have discovered about trying to clear up schizophrenic delusions is that if other people are reacting the opposite to how I am, I'm likely wrong. The fact that everyone else on this board saw that as your fault means maybe you should consider what you did to cause it instead of feeling persecuted.

I understand that part of mental illness is that one becomes incapable of not believing in their delusions without medication. I understand. I have been there. Convinced people hated me or were out to get me and unconsolable. However, with some meds and some work I have realized that often this is in fact a paranoid problem on my part. You need help, Elizabeth. Please, stop locking yourself in your room and go get it.

Philosophaster · Post by **Philosophaster** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:02 pm

Matt Gregory wrote:
Philosophaster wrote:I have no ego! Listen to me, people! I am broadcasting my egolessness! Let us all discuss my lack of ego!

Just because I have big head does not mean I have ego! ;-)

Elizabeth Isabelle · Post by **Elizabeth Isabelle** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:03 pm

Nick Treklis wrote:
Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:One Moot Point was not going to give any personal details - obviously - and be a philosophy discussion only persona.
Why? Regardless of whether we thought you were a male or female under the alias OMP, your lack of wisdom and deep-seated-ego shine through none the less.

I do not believe that is the case, but since the experiment went the way it did, I suppose the theory won't get to be tested - at least not this week.

Nick Treklis wrote:
Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:What do you do when all that matters is the truth?
What are you asking us for oh wise, enlightened, and egoless Buddha?

There is a difference between enlightenment and psychic phenomena. I also don't know what you do for a living, or an assorted number of other details about "what do you (personally) do"
.

Steven Coyle · Post by **Steven Coyle** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:11 pm

Matt Gregory wrote:
Philosophaster wrote:I have no ego! Listen to me, people! I am broadcasting my egolessness! Let us all discuss my lack of ego!

Puh!

Matt rocks the Photoshop.

And debunks Philo's skills while at it!

What graffiti ensues.

GENIUS FORUMS

The Give and Take of Truth

The Give and Take of Truth

Re: The Give and Take of Truth

Re: The Give and Take of Truth

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Ja.

Re: The Give and Take of Truth

Philo's egolessness debunked

Re: Philo's egolessness debunked