GENIUS FORUMS

passthrough, what value exactly do you personally find in discussing bible passages on this forum?

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Now, see what I mean?

For crying out flippen loud, Carl:

L: Jesus was not a disciple.

C: Unknown. We do not know if he was a disciple or not. I tend to think yes.

In what way can you know that there actually was an historical Jesus but not know whether or not he was a disciple?

Did he walk on water?

The bastardized, satanized institutions maybe, but true Christianity does not. True Christianity stresses thinking for oneself and testing for oneself everything .

So, anyone who stresses thinking and testing everything for oneself is a Christian? Are there any other qualifications?

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Leyla Shen wrote:passthrough, what value exactly do you personally find in discussing bible passages on this forum?

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Now, see what I mean?

Leyla: Therefore, the individual ends up really seeing the mountain (thing). This is exactly why Socrates can say, for example:

Quote:
For this fear of death is indeed the pretence of wisdom, and not real wisdom, being the appearance of knowing the unknown [fear of death, the thing, IS the appearance and this thing IS “the pretence of wisdom”]; since no one knows whether death, which they in their fear apprehend to be the greatest evil, may not be the greatest good. Is there not here conceit of knowledge, which is a disgraceful sort of ignorance?

And this is the point in which, as I think, I am superior to men in general, and in which I might perhaps fancy myself wiser than other men, - that whereas I know but little of the world below, I do not suppose that I know: but I do know that injustice and disobedience to a better, whether God or man, is evil and dishonorable, and I will never fear or avoid a possible good rather than a certain evil.

Answer me why you quote Socrates? The answer will most likely be the same.

BTW, I liked your explanation using the mountains. It was very clear in showing experience of belief before one believes rather than believing in something because one is told or dismissing the whole based on the theory of illusion.

I am here to learn not lecture. If I sound like I am lecturing, then attribute that to my inability to write any other way. If you would give me the same lead as you gave Cory, perhaps we could have some meaningful conversation as well.

As my class approaches, I may be spending less and less time here, although I may have a lot more questions that someone like you might help me to understand...with the background you have. Truth cannot be learned in a book, but in learning, one is given the tools to work with...I think you understand this.

Edit: to take out tongue-in-cheek comment that may have been misinterpreted to mean something other than what was intended.

Leyla Shen wrote:L: Jesus was not a disciple.

C: Unknown. We do not know if he was a disciple or not. I tend to think yes.

L: In what way can you know that there actually was an historical Jesus but not know whether or not he was a disciple?

Pardon me if I have taken things out of context. Were we arguing about whether or not a historical Jesus existed?

I do not know if a historic Jesus existed, and frankly don't care. It doesn't matter to me.

However, if there was, then according to legend, as far as I know, Jesus studied with the Essenes and possibly others during the time gap between birth and when he began preaching.

In a greater sense, all sages are disciples of The Greater, which can be called God, Truth, or whatever.

C: The bastardized, satanized institutions maybe, but true Christianity does not. True Christianity stresses thinking for oneself and testing for oneself everything .

L: So, anyone who stresses thinking and testing everything for oneself is a Christian?

No, of course not.

But each religion has a true root, and that root teaches thinking and testing for oneself. Otherwise it would not be true root. So, this is something common to all religions, in their true form.

This obviously can apply to non-religious institutions as well. But sadly, it seems today's schools are in the same position as the churches in terms of teaching dogma, and not promoting individual thought and self testing.

Are there any other qualifications?

Striving to become Christ-like.

Which is also common to all religions, at root.

Adding this:

To read something about true Christianity, check out Kierkegaard

Carl:

L: Are there any other qualifications [to being a Christian]?

C: Striving to become Christ-like.

Well, I think your own Kierkegaard resolves this fallacy rather well:

It is a very simple matter. Pick up the New Testament; read it. Can you deny, do you dare deny, that what you read there about forsaking everything, about giving up the world, being mocked and spit upon as your Lord and master was – can you deny, do you dare deny, that this is very easy to understand, indescribably easy, that you do not need a commentary or a single other person in order to understand it?

But you say, "Before I do this, however, before I risk such a decisive step, I must first consult with others." Insolent, disobedient one, you are cheeky! You cheat; all you are looking for is a way out, an excuse.

Yes. Jesus was not a disciple. He should rightly be called living truth (until they, not surprisingly, had him put to death). There is definitely a difference.

As fine a Christian apologist and disciple Kierkegaard obviously is, seems to me until the day that God’s will is done on earth as it is in heaven or unless someone else is crucified, I think I can safely say that there will only ever be one Christ. (I think Socrates was a pre-Christ Christ.)

All the rest are matters of degrees of Christianity--and Kierkegaard is apparently well aware of this himself.

Not even the pontificated potential genius in our suiciding male youth comes close to this character.

That is abundantly clear.

Apparently, Christ did not die to absolve us of sin and suffering---he died so Christians may continue to live it.

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Leyla Shen wrote:L: Are there any other qualifications [to being a Christian]?

C: Striving to become Christ-like.

L: Well, I think your own Kierkegaard resolves this fallacy rather well:

"It is a very simple matter. Pick up the New Testament; read it. Can you deny, do you dare deny, that what you read there about forsaking everything, about giving up the world, being mocked and spit upon as your Lord and master was – can you deny, do you dare deny, that this is very easy to understand, indescribably easy, that you do not need a commentary or a single other person in order to understand it?

But you say, "Before I do this, however, before I risk such a decisive step, I must first consult with others." Insolent, disobedient one, you are cheeky! You cheat; all you are looking for is a way out, an excuse."

You'll have to translate for me: how exactly does this prove a fallacy?

And, you say my statement "striving to become Christ-like" is a fallacy according to Kierkegaard, yet he says:

"What is Christianity? Simple: to be like Christ."

Translate a translation? Wow, what a predicament!

So many angles...

But, to state it simply, you defined true Christianity as that which stresses thinking and testing everything for oneself. On further questioning regarding what a true Christian is, you said it is one who strives to become Christ-like and pointed me in the directon of K quotes, from which I chose one in which K very clearly calls all such individuals--those striving to become Christ-like, "Insolent, disobedient one, you are cheeky! You cheat; all you are looking for is a way out, an excuse."

Then, amazingly, you quoted another K quote to back up my argument and the K quote I had quoted: "What is Christianity? Simple: to be like Christ."

Do you see no difference between striving and being and no relation to such a difference in the K quote I posted?

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Leyla,

Semantics.

Striving and being are essentially the same. Working towards, becoming more each day, you get the drift, I'm sure.

Are you being too nit-picky? I can't tell.

Do you really think K is chastising people for striving? I don't get that at all from the quote.

Is the word striving triggering you? Striving means working. Making an earnest effort, to be exact. What's wrong with that?

Do you think one can be a true Christian without striving, or in other words, without the effort of becoming that?

What's your beef?

If you are striving to be like Christ, you aren't already Christ-like. Becoming and being are different.

Trevor Salyzyn wrote:If you are striving to be like Christ, you aren't already Christ-like. Becoming and being are different.

Matter of degree. More and more Christ-like as time goes by, therefore striving and Christ-like at the same time. Who is already Christ-like? Who is Christ-like without striving. Who is Christ-like all at once and not by degree? As I say, semantics. There is no real argument here, nothing worth bitchin' about.

Semantics for bitchin' "ovah"? Yeah, OK...

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Leyla Shen wrote:passthrough, what value exactly do you personally find in discussing bible passages on this forum?

I thought you might find this interesting, something while reading text for class that came to mind while reading:

The Apology
Socrates defense concerning Meletus' accusations that Socrates was corrupting the youth with his questioning of traditional beliefs.

Socrates: And if you say to me, "Socrates, we will let you go free but only on condition that you stop your questioning," then I will reply, "Men of Athens, I honor and love you. But I must obey god rather than you, and while I have life and strength I will never stop doing philosophy."

Acts of the Apostles 5: 27- 32: Having brought the apostles, they made them appear before the Sanhedrin to be questioned by the high priest. "We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name," he said. "Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man's blood."

Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than men! The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead—whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree. God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel. We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."

The Apostles were also brought before a court accused and subjected to death, but for preaching Christianity which had been forbidden by the Sanhedrin, however, they were spared by one who thought the better of his pretentions in the event God was indeed behind them. Should Socrates have been so fortunate. It might even be interesting to juxtapose his trial with the trial of Jesus Christ...the only thing being different was that Socrates thought of death as freedom whether one went into nothingness/unconsciousness or an afterlife, whereas Christ promised an afterlife.

I found this an interesting relationship. Both giving only their obedience to god/God for truth even though it meant poverty and scorn. Comparative analysis could be one good reason for citing biblical scriptures if another knew something similar in their own discipline that could help us all find universal truths amongst our varying beliefs.

There certainly are notable similarities, as I alluded to when I said, “I reckon Socrates was the pre-Christ Christ.” One such similarity of interest is that the Jews believe their God to be a particular god of many Gods (refer OT)--but Jesus preached monotheism (as does Islam).

Socrates also refers to a God, but also to many gods. The Romans at that time were, of course, polytheists. So we could say that we see a development of belief from polytheism through a belief in a superior God and demi-gods to monotheism.

In the trials of Socrates and Jesus, the crime itself was essentially the same. When it comes to the disciples, however, and according to the Bible quote of your choice, the God-defence is not about truth and principle--integrity--it is about the “proof” of the resurrection and faith very much subsequent to that. So, this comparison you make is like comparing apples and oranges.

Indeed, in this light, the apostles and not Jesus should have been put to death, for what principles and integrity lie behind requiring faith in God in such a manner and by what will?

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The Trial of Jesus: Matthew 27

[11] And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.
[12] And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing.
[13] Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee?
[14] And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly.
[15] Now at that feast the governor was wont to release unto the people a prisoner, whom they would.
[16] And they had then a notable prisoner, called Barabbas.
[17] Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus which is called Christ?
[18] For he knew that for envy they had delivered him.
[19] When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.
[20] But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.
[21] The governor answered and said unto them, Whether of the twain will ye that I release unto you? They said, Barabbas.
[22] Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified.
[23] And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.
[24] When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
[25] Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

PSALM 82

1 [A Psalm of Asaph.] God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

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