GENIUS FORUMS

Sue Hindmarsh wrote:It could be that by describing himself as “the whip”, Buddha may be pointing out the “outsider’s” passive nature. We are told that the outsider “sighed in admiration” after Buddha responded by being silent to his idea about the Infinite. Yet the outsider presented his idea to the Buddha not as a question, but as a statement - indicating that he already considered his idea complete. But he still came to Buddha looking for reassurance. So even though the outsider considered himself to be a free creature, possessing a mind of his own; he was nevertheless found out to be just another domesticated animal - “a good horse” – needing others to set boundaries for him.

I don't think so. They're always sighing and crooning over the Buddha in Buddhism, so I don't think they ever looked at following the Buddha as a negative thing. I think the sigh was just meant to indicate how much he was helped by the Buddha. I don't think calling him a horse was supposed to be an insult, either. I think it just means a trained, but unenlightened person. By saying "good" I think he meant that the training was beneficial. I am kind of puzzled by the fact that he was an "outsider". I don't have an explanation for that.

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:

Matt Gregory wrote:

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:

Matt wrote:I'm just going by the story and what I know of the purpose of these stories.

So why do you suppose the koan did not end with the outsider being awakened?

Because he was already awakened.

If he was already awakened, he would not have had to see the Buddha.

He was awakened by the Buddha, but he was awakened in the first part. He wasn't even present at the end.

Matt Gregory wrote:

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:

Matt Gregory wrote:

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:

So why do you suppose the koan did not end with the outsider being awakened?

Because he was already awakened.

If he was already awakened, he would not have had to see the Buddha.

He was awakened by the Buddha, but he was awakened in the first part. He wasn't even present at the end.

*thumps head on desk 5 times trying to figure out how to explain what I was getting at*

So why didn't the koan end when the outsider was "awakened?"

An outsider asked the Buddha, "I do not ask about the spoken or the unspoken." The World Honored One remained silent.

Clearly he was still asking, otherwise no comment was necessary.

The outsider sighed in admiration and said, "The World Honored One's great kindness and great compassion have opened up my clouds of illusion and let me gain entry."

Anyone who expresses admiration to another is a fool. Nor was the buddha the "one" giving kindness and passion (if we are to believe all this no-self crap)

After the outsider had left, Ananda asked the Buddha, "What did the outsider realize, that he said he had gained entry?" The Buddha said, "Like a good horse, he goes as soon as he sees the shadow of the whip."

The Buddha would have used the whip to remind the dude that he needs to do more thinking. The fellow may have realised all his praise to the buddha were not the actions of someone who was actually enlightened, he was still delusional.

Eliza,

So why didn't the koan end when the outsider was "awakened?"

If you don't like it, write your own koan.

Trevor Salyzyn wrote:Eliza,

So why didn't the koan end when the outsider was "awakened?"

If you don't like it, write your own koan.

That's not the point. Some of us are interpreting this koan differently, and part of learning from this is discussing it. If someone is just going to say "I'm right and you're wrong" then there is no point to discussing things.

Oops, I hit "edit" instead of "reply" to add that last bit.

Elizabeth,

*thumps head on desk 5 times trying to figure out how to explain what I was getting at*

So why didn't the koan end when the outsider was "awakened?"

Matt Gregory wrote:Hehe, oh sorry! I didn't realize I was misunderstanding you. To make it more accessible, is my guess.

Or maybe it's two koans in one, each clarifying in different ways.

Jamesh wrote:The outsider sighed in admiration and said, "The World Honored One's great kindness and great compassion have opened up my clouds of illusion and let me gain entry."

Anyone who expresses admiration to another is a fool. Nor was the buddha the "one" giving kindness and passion (if we are to believe all this no-self crap)

After the outsider had left, Ananda asked the Buddha, "What did the outsider realize, that he said he had gained entry?" The Buddha said, "Like a good horse, he goes as soon as he sees the shadow of the whip."

The Buddha would have used the whip to remind the dude that he needs to do more thinking. The fellow may have realised all his praise to the buddha were not the actions of someone who was actually enlightened, he was still delusional.

No, no, you guys are taking this sighing and admiring all personally and shit! It's just a literary device!

Eliza: I was being snarky in jest.

But then again, Matt just made a good point. Some of these things are just literary devices.

IMHO, like anything literary, the best way to understand koans is to write your own. Then at least you can keep all the weird eastern symbolism to a minimum and have it be intelligible to an audience both local and contemporary.

Horse walks into a bar. Bartender says, "Why the long face?"

Matt wrote:

Sue: It could be that by describing himself as “the whip”, Buddha may be pointing out the “outsider’s” passive nature. We are told that the outsider “sighed in admiration” after Buddha responded by being silent to his idea about the Infinite. Yet the outsider presented his idea to the Buddha not as a question, but as a statement - indicating that he already considered his idea complete. But he still came to Buddha looking for reassurance. So even though the outsider considered himself to be a free creature, possessing a mind of his own; he was nevertheless found out to be just another domesticated animal - “a good horse” – needing others to set boundaries for him.

I don't think so. They're always sighing and crooning over the Buddha in Buddhism, so I don't think they ever looked at following the Buddha as a negative thing. I think the sigh was just meant to indicate how much he was helped by the Buddha. I don't think calling him a horse was supposed to be an insult, either. I think it just means a trained, but unenlightened person. By saying "good" I think he meant that the training was beneficial. I am kind of puzzled by the fact that he was an "outsider". I don't have an explanation for that.

The whole thing becomes quizzical when you try and isolate each piece of information in an effort to explain the whole. But one’s mind naturally looks at the pieces of information in an effort to do just that.

But perhaps its meaning is as simple as the outsider coming to see Buddha with his idea about the Infinite, and Buddha, by his silence, giving him the nod. If that’s the case – then that’s that. The outsider’s “I do not ask about the spoken or the unspoken” is a lesson about resting easy with this fundamental, though for most, paradoxical truth - that things (including the self) exist, but not inherently.

The horse and whip reference may be describing the outsider’s final acceptance of this undeniable truth.

.

Trevor asked Elizabeth to write her own koan, then he went to bed. Elizabeth traveled to see him, but apon seeing him wrapped in sheets, she screamed. Trevor yelled at her "What was that?"

Elizabeth responded "It's an I scream koan." With all the yelling and screaming, Trevor's parents were awakened.

Jamesh wrote:An outsider asked the Buddha, "I do not ask about the spoken or the unspoken." The World Honored One remained silent.

Clearly he was still asking, otherwise no comment was necessary.

I think just the act of going to the Buddha was meant to be taken as asking. I think he was asking, "I do not ask of the spoken or the unspoken, soooo wtf can you tell me now?"

The outsider sighed in admiration and said, "The World Honored One's great kindness and great compassion have opened up my clouds of illusion and let me gain entry."

Anyone who expresses admiration to another is a fool.

Usually, but the Buddha is more of a representation of the man of Truth, rather than a figurehead or a political leader or whatever. The idea is that you're seeking to become a Buddha, so the admiration is supposed to be an attractive force rather than a repelling one.

Nor was the buddha the "one" giving kindness and passion (if we are to believe all this no-self crap)

Helping someone see Truth is the only kind of kindness and compassion that exists in Buddhism. Or that exists period, for that matter.

After the outsider had left, Ananda asked the Buddha, "What did the outsider realize, that he said he had gained entry?" The Buddha said, "Like a good horse, he goes as soon as he sees the shadow of the whip."

The Buddha would have used the whip to remind the dude that he needs to do more thinking. The fellow may have realised all his praise to the buddha were not the actions of someone who was actually enlightened, he was still delusional.

I think Ananda and the Buddha were both talking about the moment of realization rather than the moment afterwards. That's what Ananda was asking about, and the Buddha wouldn't change the subject. That wouldn't make any sense.

Matt Gregory wrote:Hehe, oh sorry! I didn't realize I was misunderstanding you. To make it more accessible, is my guess.

Or maybe it's two koans in one, each clarifying in different ways.

This is the kind of redundancy I meant, and I did not think that koans were redundant - but paradoxical instead.

Matt Gregory wrote:By "good horse" he was saying that the guy was well trained in spiritual discipline.

I would go along with that if not for the fact that the guy was an outsider. Think for a moment of what an outsider is (outside of what? Outside of the monastic setting? Outside of Buddhism?), and tell me how an outsider could be well trained in spiritual discipline.

He knew who and what the Buddha was, and herdly people are always fawning over famous people just because they are famous, and having fantasies about encounters with some particular famous person, but I don't see how an outsider could be so well trained in spiritual discipline that just seeing the Buddha would be enough to open his mind, or see his own mind. An insider, yes, but not an outsider.

He could have also read the Buddha's face that he was about to feel the whip if he didn't go away immediatly.

I agree about the sighing in admiration being a literary device. Just saying "he sighed" leaves what kind of a sigh up to too much interpretation.

wiki wrote:Koans are said to reflect the enlightened or awakened state of such persons, and sometimes said to confound the habit of discursive thought or shock the mind into awareness.

It isn't shocking to get enlightened when seeing the Buddha, and repetative explaining of something adds to discursiveness.

here

Then again, wiki also said:

teachers often do expect students to present an appropriate response when asked about a koan. Even so, a koan is not a riddle or a puzzle.[1] Appropriate responses to a koan may vary according to circumstances; different teachers may demand different responses to a given koan, and a fixed answer cannot be correct in every circumstance.

Despite our very different interpretations, we could both be right. The point is the thinking about it.

Steven Coyle wrote:The Buddha was able to show the man his own mind. Due in large part to the man's respect.

Feelings, including the feeling of respect, can influence one's thinking. I'm not sure that's applicable to this koan, but I agree with the validity of the thought.

Thanks for explaining more of your thoughts in your second response to me Matt, not that I really agree - but for these no aggreement is required.

I really have no time for koans - they remind me of what bible study is probably like (never been to one).

I think a small percentage of these koans may be useful during mediation, but apart from that I have no interest in them. Reading the link Eliz posted just turned me off more.

This koan/statement was OK, but still mildly illogical.

Two monks were watching a flag flapping in the wind. One said to the other, "The flag is moving."
The other replied, "The wind is moving."
Huineng overheard this. He said, "Not the flag, not the wind; mind is moving."

Huineng was, in a roundabout way, showing the two monks the profound nature of causality.

Yes, the lack of origins in Nature, and the ignorant mind's inexhaustible ability to create problems which don't exist.

-

Huineng was, in a roundabout way, showing the two monks the profound nature of causality.

Yes, but it is still mildly wrong, because the flag and the wind, do change in some manner and this is reflected in the mind. Its the old one-sided nature of such statments that make them a little wrong. Relative only to the conversation though, and not to the whole picture, not to reality, yes it is the mind doing all the "moving".

Jamesh wrote:Huineng was, in a roundabout way, showing the two monks the profound nature of causality.

Yes, but it is still mildly wrong, because the flag and the wind, do change in some manner and this is reflected in the mind. Its the old one-sided nature of such statments that make them a little wrong. Relative only to the conversation though, and not to the whole picture, not to reality, yes it is the mind doing all the "moving".

You say this because of your attachment to the empirical. The context of a koan is where its content is found.

You say this because of your attachment to the empirical.

I'm not sure thats quite right either. I kind of think it is not an attachment, but that cognitively I am the empirical, and my self-awareness is not attached to the empirical, but intrinsically connected with the empirical.

Could just be commenting for the sake of it though.

Jamesh wrote:You say this because of your attachment to the empirical.

I'm not sure thats quite right either. I kind of think it is not an attachment, but that cognitively I am the empirical, and my self-awareness is not attached to the empirical, but intrinsically connected with the empirical.

Could just be commenting for the sake of it though.

Fair enough.

Trevor asked Elizabeth to write her own koan, then he went to bed. Elizabeth traveled to see him, but apon seeing him wrapped in sheets, she screamed. Trevor yelled at her "What was that?"

Elizabeth responded "It's an I scream koan." With all the yelling and screaming, Trevor's parents were awakened.

Nice.

I was thinking of a tasty koan earlier, but my grandfather showed up at my door and demanded my attention, which caused me to forget it. I had it in my head: two sentences, and clever as can be. When I tried to get it back, I couldn't think of any way to write it in less than 4. I completely lost the wordplay. Now, hours later, I still can't remember it.

Maybe DQ is right and the elderly do need to be silenced....

Too late.