The Qualities of a Divinely Inclined Person.....

Bob Michael · Post by **Bob Michael** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:00 pm

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:This forum can serve as a grinder for the ego just as it can serve as a booster or castle for it. How are you going to use it?

The ego is dead here at this end. I've been using this and other online forums to improve my communication skills as a part of perfecting my relationship with the Infinite, Diebert. And quite franky I have no expectations of being understood or appreciated by anyone, or at least not by 95% or so of the other participants. While remembering too here, that the darkness (and 'their egos') has hated the light since the beginning of time. But things will change for the better someday soon.

Bob Michael · Post by **Bob Michael** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:07 am

David Quinn wrote:Yes, wanting wisdom to flourish.

In order to have a truly sane society it is Love that must flourish, David. And only the wisdom that springs forth from Love has any real value in creating such a society.

Bob Michael · Post by **Bob Michael** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:35 am

GodsDaughter1 wrote:True Christianity are those who believe in the almighty Jesus Christ, the son of God. Christianity doesn't say you must go to church, it says have fellowship in Jesus name, which simply means acknowledge Christ in your conversations with others.

Why not simply acknowledge his "Heavenly Father" (as we happen to individually understand him, her, or it) in our conversations with others? Especially in light of the fact that Christ was not a perfectly obedient son. Along with the fact that religious exclusivity serves to create conflict and division rather than peace and harmony among men and women.

GodsDaughter1 wrote:True Christianity is righteous living through knowing The Ten Commandments! Your Holy Temple is not mentioned in The Ten Commandments, therefore, God gave you wine to drink but only to moderation not to drunkeness, and marijuana was given for man to think it up in his head to smoke, otherwise, man wouldn't have thought it up. God wants man to have pleasure, but, not be lustful of the flesh. God is not coming to Judge man but to save man!

To date those ancient and limitation-bound 10 commandments have failed to bring any appreciable Light into our dark world. And so has Christianity. However, what will soon bring Light into the world are A.A.'s 12 steps, which have been extracted directly from fundamental Christian principles.

GodsDaughter1 wrote: True Christianity know their Lord and Heavenly Father intuitively, the light of God is within them, I am a premium example, for the light of our Heavenly Father resides in me.

While I can't see your light, I very much inclined to believe it's in you, GD1. And I can only encourage you to keep it burning brightly in this dark, dark world we live in. Which is the greatest of challenges.

GodsDaughter1 wrote: True Christianity is knowing Jesus through their Father's WORD--The Bible.

Whatever helps in the edification of one's soul or human spirit is fine. But ultimately, rigorously-honest SELF-knowledge, SELF-surrender, and SELF-overcoming are the keys to liberation.

Pam Seeback · Post by **Pam Seeback** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:31 am

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
movingalways wrote:I am clear above as to my definition of liberation. No mental fermentations, consciousness of senses has grown cold and is ceased.
Of course you're not liberated but that's because no one can be following your definition. And even if someone would be liberated in that sense, how would she know, or how could anyone tell?

That's exactly what I meant with eclipsing: you are overlaying the world of "mental fermentation" and "consciousness of senses" with a world without fermentation and senses.

But reliance on this trick needs to go, too. You are creating just another schism which doesn't exist either.

If you truly intuited the nature of the infinite, you would not see an overlay of any kind, nor would you see a schism. There are no overlays or schisms in the infinite. There is only the expansion of Its worlds of Itself, an expansion that includes being expanded of the intellect, and then, of being expanded beyond the intellect. Those who do not realize that the infinite is not a totality of finite things, rather is a continuum of expansion that includes the realm of finite things, will remain eternally on the wheel of the repetition of reasoning of finite things.

Men who can only see as far as the tip of their nose do not catch the fragrance of the infinity of themselves.

Pam Seeback · Post by **Pam Seeback** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:32 am

Pam,

true nature is what it is and isn't what it isn't.
what it is when it turns on is warm, spontaneous, free.

You do not know what warm is, nor what spontaneous is, or what free is. Your intellect is interpreting these things as if you do know, but this is trap of believing the infinite and the finite are permanent bedfellows, that reasoning is THE expression of wisdom. This is the wearing of finite blinders.

what it isn't.
Jesus and Christianity are virtually opposites
Buddha and Buddhism are virtually opposites

Virtually? ARE opposites? Right here, you have displayed the problem with the intellectual belief in the wisdom of finite absolutes. Such a belief keeps you stuck in finite consciousness with no way to exit its artificial boundary of time, space, distance and matter. I will give you a personal example: You say it's all empty and meaningless, there are no absolutes, and yet, here you are, telling me you know what Christianity means and you know what Buddhism means, so much so, that you declare them opposites. The intellect is a tricky fellow, wanting its cake [infinite consciousness] and eating it too [keeping it finite].

Buddhism and christianity are scripture or scripts for the seeker to squeeze itself into as a role play for the Imitation of Christ or Imitation of Buddha

Winning formulas in order to for the sake of.

How to sit, what to wear, what to say, when to say it, having a trillion scriptural quotes present at hand to drop into conversations at opportune moments in a conversation to look good.
Basically what that's about is an actor in a movie trying to look good.

Same in the secular world.
Winning formulas.
Nice body, nice face, cosmetic surgery.
nice clothes
how to sit. what to say
nice career,
chubby kids,
blue chip stocks

Dennis, if you are reading Christianity or Buddhism into my words, then you should cease reading/responding to my posts.

Having said this, I do not negate the expansion of man's conciousness into religious beliefs, which leads to his expansion out of religious beliefs. Blueprints of revelations are necessary for the expansion of the infinity of man, every blueprint, no exceptions. Did you not follow some or many blueprints to arrive at this blueprint of "Dennis interpretation?" And, do you not see the possibilities of more 'now' blueprints to move Dennis beyond this 'now' blueprint of Dennis?

Throw out the machine-like scripts and all the sets of rules.

Like "it's empty and meaningless?"

winning formulas don't win and are prisons.
It's empty and meaningless

Come alive!

If you cannot see the life in the spirit of my words, I cannot make you see this life.

True nature is absent all that.
not self-conscious
not walking around on eggshells looking for a formula to fit in to.

Blueprints of revelation of expansion are not "formulas to fit into." They are the movement of life itself. It is you, not I, who wears a philosophy.

Dennis Mahar · Post by **Dennis Mahar** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:16 am

It's about direct confrontation at an ego survival machine locked up in a conceptual Story.
As a means of triggering an actual experience of non-duality.
It is known to come about in an intense conversation.

What gets blown away is the ego survival machine and that very machine will bounce around in its rubber room in order to hang in there for the time being.

To trigger the actual experience of non-conceptual calm in a being here is made difficult because there are too many voices distracting I suppose.

The point is conceptualisation is necessary to blow away conceptualisation.
How else can we get at each other?
Rubbing noses?

What's said on the trip stays on the trip.
If you've got a set of rules about what should be said and how it should be said, that's all you've got, a set of rules.
It's empty and meaningless.

True nature is warm, spontaneous and free.
It doesn't need a set of rules to live by like a code of ethics.
It's naturally life affirming.
It wants to share.

Pam Seeback · Post by **Pam Seeback** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:24 am

David: The thing to understand is that there is no wisdom in the first place. It is an illusion. It is part of the ignorance that has to be given up. When you do this, you will have transcended your finite awareness (while remaining finitely aware).

Your belief that infinite consciousness IS finite consciousness explains your response to me below:

Pam: When wisdom is fully revealed, there will be no society left to seek wisdom. This is wisdom's purpose, to bring an end first, to the world, and then, to itself.
David: This can only mean that wisdom hasn't fully revealed itself to you .....

As you see, I stated that belief in wisdom is to end. Where we differ, and correct me if I am wrong, you believe that finite consciousness is THAT which IS when belief in [needing] wisdom 'ends.'

You did not respond to the link I provided on the consciousness blueprint of the 31 Planes of Existence, nor to my pointing out that the teachings of the Buddha were not directed toward the end goal of transcending conventionality, that they are instead, for those who are ready and spiritually strong enough to 'hear', directed towards being expanded into infinite unknown worlds of ??? This is why the distinction between the immaterial world and the fine material world, which is your world of finite things. [note to Dennis: these 31 planes are NOT intellectual formulas, nor is my reference to the teachings of the Buddha an attachment to Buddhism].

Your wisdom presents consciousness as being eternally bound to the reasoning of finite things, to the mental and physical realms of birth and death. Do you not intuit that there are infinite worlds yet to be revealed, that are totally 'different' than that of moving the dust of the earth around to re-form a mental or physical body that appears to change, but in truth, changes not?

Pam Seeback · Post by **Pam Seeback** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:54 am

Dennis Mahar wrote:It's about direct confrontation at an ego survival machine locked up in a conceptual Story.
As a means of triggering an actual experience of non-duality.
It is known to come about in an intense conversation.

What gets blown away is the ego survival machine and that very machine will bounce around in its rubber room in order to hang in there for the time being.

To trigger the actual experience of non-conceptual calm in a being here is made difficult because there are too many voices distracting I suppose.

The point is conceptualisation is necessary to blow away conceptualisation.
How else can we get at each other?
Rubbing noses?

What's said on the trip stays on the trip.
If you've got a set of rules about what should be said and how it should be said, that's all you've got, a set of rules.
It's empty and meaningless.

Dennis, you want your cake [infinite consciousness] and eat it too [keep it finite]. Me? I want my cake, therefore, I am am being purified [by my cake], of my desire to eat it.

GodsDaughter1 · Post by **GodsDaughter1** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:02 am

Bob Michael wrote:
GodsDaughter1 wrote:True Christianity are those who believe in the almighty Jesus Christ, the son of God. Christianity doesn't say you must go to church, it says have fellowship in Jesus name, which simply means acknowledge Christ in your conversations with others.
Why not simply acknowledge his "Heavenly Father" (as we happen to individually understand him, her, or it) in our conversations with others? Especially in light of the fact that Christ was not a perfectly obedient son. Along with the fact that religious exclusivity serves to create conflict and division rather than peace and harmony among men and women.

GodsDaughter1 wrote:True Christianity is righteous living through knowing The Ten Commandments! Your Holy Temple is not mentioned in The Ten Commandments, therefore, God gave you wine to drink but only to moderation not to drunkeness, and marijuana was given for man to think it up in his head to smoke, otherwise, man wouldn't have thought it up. God wants man to have pleasure, but, not be lustful of the flesh. God is not coming to Judge man but to save man!
To date those ancient and limitation-bound 10 commandments have failed to bring any appreciable Light into our dark world. And so has Christianity. However, what will soon bring Light into the world are A.A.'s 12 steps, which have been extracted directly from fundamental Christian principles.

GodsDaughter1 wrote: True Christianity know their Lord and Heavenly Father intuitively, the light of God is within them, I am a premium example, for the light of our Heavenly Father resides in me.

While I can't see your light, I very much inclined to believe it's in you, GD1. And I can only encourage you to keep it burning brightly in this dark, dark world we live in. Which is the greatest of challenges.

GodsDaughter says: Bob Michael, although you believe God's light is within me, but you can't see it, is not good enough. Gods light can be seen easily in me through many people's eyes, why not you? God created humanity in his own image, that tells me I'm created good. In the beginning when God created the heavens and earth, animals and people, he saw that all was good. Just because Jesus was not a perfectly obedient child to his mother, it's because his Father in Heaven the almighty God gave a mind of obedience to follow him. And because I swear online or smoke marijuana, does not exempt me from having the light of God in me. Swear words are simply man-made, Gods ways are not our ways, and our ways are not Gods ways, so humanity is excused from responsibility of creation.

GodsDaughter1 wrote: True Christianity is knowing Jesus through their Father's WORD--The Bible.
Whatever helps in the edification of one's soul or human spirit is fine. But ultimately, rigorously-honest SELF-knowledge, SELF-surrender, and SELF-overcoming are the keys to liberation.

Diebert van Rhijn · Post by **Diebert van Rhijn** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:50 am

Jup wrote:
If I value chocolate bars, having 10000's of them around will decrease my valuing of one or a few of them
The value that you put on chocolate bars isn't affected by the quantity of them that you perceive around yourself.

You're overlooking a simple but important element here.

It's about the difference between a particular instance and the general issue in its entirety.

In David's instance it's what he has to offer the world, which, as he wrote: "would be of little value" in his imagined enlightened society.

The value of having an enlightened society (or a never-ending supply of chocolate in my case) is a different evaluation altogether. Although a case could be made that something can become so much normal that no effort is done anymore to keep it as norm. One could only hope an enlightened society would be wise enough not to take anything for granted. So they should remain watchful.

Diebert van Rhijn · Post by **Diebert van Rhijn** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:56 am

movingalways wrote: There is only the expansion of Its worlds of Itself, an expansion that includes being expanded of the intellect, and then, of being expanded beyond the intellect.

There's no clarity in this sentence at all. Expand all you want beyond everything but muddied waters are not known to reach very deep. That said, I'm not sure I even disagree.

Diebert van Rhijn · Post by **Diebert van Rhijn** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:20 am

Bob Michael wrote: And quite franky I have no expectations of being understood or appreciated by anyone, or at least not by 95% or so of the other participants.

This brings me back to one of our earlier discussions on the writings of Meister Eckhart, when he said: "a man should be so acquitted and free that he neither knows nor realises that God is at work in him: in that way can a man possess poverty."

You appear to need to go one step further right now: to be freed from any knowledge on how effective or perfected your relationship "with the infinite" really is and how those of others would not be. These thoughts seem to keep your expression bound, and you remain "too rich".

GodsDaughter1 · Post by **GodsDaughter1** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:10 am

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
Bob Michael wrote: And quite franky I have no expectations of being understood or appreciated by anyone, or at least not by 95% or so of the other participants.
This brings me back to one of our earlier discussions on the writings of Meister Eckhart, when he said: "a man should be so acquitted and free that he neither knows nor realises that God is at work in him: in that way can a man possess poverty."

You appear to need to go one step further right now: to be freed from any knowledge on how effective or perfected your relationship "with the infinite" really is and how those of others would not be. These thoughts seem to keep your expression bound, and you remain "too rich".

GodsDaughter says: I appreciate good conversational dialog. Bob, you say, "And quite frankly I have no expectations of being understood or appreciated by anyone,..." Why Bob? To make yourself understood is vitally important, it's called clarity. If you make yourself understood no one can misinterpret you. I can understand what you're saying, I've felt misinstood all my life, until I decided to learn to clarify myself, now if anyone misinterprets me, they are made to look as silly as they are. If we are misunderstood by others that's our problem to correct. Bob if you have no expectations of being understood, that's like saying you're unwilling to make yourself understood. It's your moral obligation to yourself to have yourself understood by others. It's within us all to want to be appreciated by others otherwise, we're a social outcast. One can be a loner without the socializing with others, but, one is only denying himself/herself the right to grow sociably. I am premium example of what I speak here considering my reclusive background.

Also, "The Qualities of a Divinely Inclined Person" is that of those who get along well with everyone, those who treat others respectfully because they have the love of Jesus in their hearts. It is the quality of love that changes people for the good.

Dennis Mahar · Post by **Dennis Mahar** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:12 am

Pam

Dennis, you want your cake [infinite consciousness] and eat it too [keep it finite]. Me? I want my cake, therefore, I am am being purified [by my cake], of my desire to eat it.

Don't know what that means.
Looks like a strategy.

Infinite is noticed through finite.

Take an apple.
It doesn't fall from the sky.
To be there it requires water, sun, soil, clouds, nutrients.
A web of relationships.
Causes/conditions.
It has parts.
skin, pulp, seeds.
If you held the seed in your hand, it wouldn't grow there.
It needs its conditions.

It lacks inherent existence.
That means it is not self-established.
It looks like a thing in itself but its not.
It's a web of relationships.

All phenomena (finite things) lack inherent existence.
Are not self-established.

Not even you.
You are causes/conditions.
pieces/parts.
web of relationships.
You are not self-established.

You need Earth.
You wouldn't grow on Venus.

David Quinn · Post by **David Quinn** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:20 am

Bob Michael wrote:
David Quinn wrote:Yes, wanting wisdom to flourish.
In order to have a truly sane society it is Love that must flourish, David. And only the wisdom that springs forth from Love has any real value in creating such a society.

As long as it is love for all things equally, and not just love for a few things (i.e. a wife).

When it is love for all things equally, it become the rarest of human actions - namely, love of God. When it is love for a few things only, it remains the commonest of human actions - namely, love of happiness and security - i.e. standard egotism.

Wisdom is love of God.

-

jupiviv · Post by **jupiviv** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:40 pm

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
jupiviv wrote:The value that you put on chocolate bars isn't affected by the quantity of them that you perceive around yourself.
It's about the difference between a particular instance and the general issue in its entirety.

In David's instance it's what he has to offer the world, which, as he wrote: "would be of little value" in his imagined enlightened society.

A wise person only has wisdom to offer to the world, both generally and in particular instances. This doesn't mean he can't "do things", but it also doesn't mean that he has to become a brick mason in any particular instance where there are a lot of wise people around.

Besides, I think it's useless to continue this discussion until David clarifies what he means.

Diebert van Rhijn · Post by **Diebert van Rhijn** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:23 pm

jupiviv wrote:This doesn't mean [the wise person] can't "do things", but it also doesn't mean that he has to become a brick mason in any particular instance where there are a lot of wise people around.

No but the importance of having one sage more or one sage less around at this point has been decreased.

cousinbasil · Post by **cousinbasil** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:22 pm

Diebert wrote:No but the importance of having one sage more or one sage less around at this point has been decreased.

But aren't you being a bit Keynesian here? The general tone of this exchange has been one of applying the notions of supply and demand to the "supply" of genius. On what level are men of genius and chocolate bars interchangeable? Or men of genius and any other commodity?

People seem to value human life. If the general developmental level of humanity were reduced, so that the world was full of hyenas, then the value of having one more or one less hyena around would be decreased, because the "value" would have been assessed by other hyenas.

It seems obvious to me that a world of geniuses would be more likely to appreciate the value of genius (as the term is most often used at GF) than the world we live in is. This world already is one in which the importance of having one sage more or one sage less is very low, precisely because there are so few true ones.

Diebert van Rhijn · Post by **Diebert van Rhijn** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:47 am

cousinbasil wrote:But aren't you being a bit Keynesian here? The general tone of this exchange has been one of applying the notions of supply and demand to the "supply" of genius. On what level are men of genius and chocolate bars interchangeable? Or men of genius and any other commodity?

It has to do with importance and priority placed on something in its context. A pool of water is naturally of great value in a desert, but way less so in a lake district. This dynamic doesn't change the value of water as a building block of life.

Bob Michael · Post by **Bob Michael** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:03 am

Diebert van Rhijn wrote: This brings me back to one of our earlier discussions on the writings of Meister Eckhart, when he said: "a man should be so acquitted and free that he neither knows nor realises that God is at work in him: in that way can a man possess poverty."

You appear to need to go one step further right now: to be freed from any knowledge on how effective or perfected your relationship "with the infinite" really is and how those of others would not be. These thoughts seem to keep your expression bound, and you remain "too rich".

I think I understand the point you're trying to make here and I'm headed in that direction, Diebert. And I'm reminded here of the following line of Lao Tzu:

"The perfect man is pure Spirit."

Though for me (and He - the Infinite), the perfect man (or the pure Spirit) will have his bride (helpmate) by his side. And if he doesn't, he's not yet perfect. He may be perfect in his metaphysical knowledge of the spiritual life, but he'll not be perfect in being a fully living embodiment of such a life. Nor will he be of any real value in effectively helping others gain entry into the kingdom of Heaven. Likewise, unless a person undergoes the vital birth/death experience with a clear understanding of just what took place, they'll also be of no value to his fellows and the evolutionary scheme of things.

Lastly, perfect balance and direction in life manifest only from a position of being "too rich", as you say. Whereas, being 'too poor' will get one nowhere, save for being hopelessly stuck in the wall-to-wall human mediocrity. See Revelation 3: 15-16.

Bob Michael · Post by **Bob Michael** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:05 am

GodsDaughter1 wrote:I appreciate good conversational dialog. Bob, you say, "And quite frankly I have no expectations of being understood or appreciated by anyone,..." Why Bob?

First off, my words were as follows, GD1. "And quite franky I have no expectations of being understood or appreciated by anyone, or at least not by 95% or so of the other participants."

And I say this from my many years of experience with online forum discussion activity and also my many, many years of sharing at A. A. meetings. All the while knowing of no one who's radically transformed and on my wavelength, so to speak. There may be one or two exceptions here online, but without meeting them in person I can't really be all that certain of the quality and depth of their spiritual knowledge and integrity. And there are definitely a few potentially transformable souls in the A. A. rooms. And do note that I offer a window of 5% of humanity that may be capable of understanding me and more importantly the points I try to get across. I too have come to realize that my message needs some further fine-tuning which continues in earnest. And again I feel strongly that this medium of communication is not at all conducive to bringing about any real revolutionary change in others and consequently that a person-to-person setting is absolutely necessary for the job.

"Good conversational dialogue" may indeed be inspirational, but rarely is it truly edifying and life-changing. Inspiration takes place even in many churches for many people. But then comes monday morning and the quick slide back again into mediocre selfhood and the ways of the insane world.

GodsDaughter1 wrote:To make yourself understood is vitally important, it's called clarity. If you make yourself understood no one can misinterpret you.

I agree, and my focus and practicing (24/7 here and at an average of 2-3 A. A.meetings a day) is constantly on developing the best possible message, approach, and setting that will effectively bring a radical shift in consciousness in others. And I'm thoroughly convinced that without undergoing a radical shift in consciousness (which is a total change in the manner of mind or brain functioning) there'll be no totally new and liberated being. Experiences of which both myself and my wife have undergone. And without such an experience or experiences people may have a reasonably good understanding of God and moments of God-consciousness or oneness with Him, but they will not be radically new beings who are so full of love, understanding, and right-action, in all of life's circumstances, that the old societally conditioned self and fear are virtually non-existent in them. Nor will they be free of contributing to the ills of the world to varying degrees. And blindly or unconsciously serving both God and mammon has it's payback, as it's been said of old.

GodsDaughter1 wrote:I can understand what you're saying, I've felt misinstood all my life, until I decided to learn to clarify myself, now if anyone misinterprets me, they are made to look as silly as they are. If we are misunderstood by others that's our problem to correct.

I too have felt 'different' and misunderstood or not at all understood all my life, and it took me a long time to clearly understand just why this was. However, I cannot give others understanding. Be it understanding of myself or themselves. I can only be an perfect instrument (and I'm responsible to be such an instrument) that may help others come to their own understanding(s), but that's where it begins and ends. However, and this has become a real time and energy saver for me, I've become fully aware that the vast majority of people will never come to understand themselves, others, or human existence under any circumstances. Nor will they ever discover a truly living and loving relationship with their Creator either. And I'm becoming quite adept at correctly sensing who's capable of regeneration and who's not.

GodsDaughter1 wrote:Bob if you have no expectations of being understood, that's like saying you're unwilling to make yourself understood. It's your moral obligation to yourself to have yourself understood by others. It's within us all to want to be appreciated by others otherwise, we're a social outcast. One can be a loner without the socializing with others, but, one is only denying himself/herself the right to grow sociably. I am premium example of what I speak here considering my reclusive background.

Also, "The Qualities of a Divinely Inclined Person" is that of those who get along well with everyone, those who treat others respectfully because they have the love of Jesus in their hearts. It is the quality of love that changes people for the good.

My view is that an innately pure-hearted woman (which are relatively rare) can only fully overcome her enculturated self with the security and guidance of a fully liberated and pure-hearted man. Which are virtually non-existent. So women's ways of error and worldlyness are quite understandable. And the Infinite gives them far more grace for equal transgressions of natural law than is given us men. Which is quite fair and square and understandable in my book. So rather than idly and non-constructively criticising and condemning them, which is the way of weak, cowardly, unregenerate, and thereby unmanly men who are everywhere, women need to be loved, understood, respected, and fully appreciated. Which is what I mean by 'taming' them. That is a good woman who's been gifted with a finely-formed and highly-sensitive conscience or intuitive mechanism. Of course firmness is also necessary in the process.

So again my focus, GD1, continues to be on perfecting myself so as to develop the very best possible message that will effectively bring others to the necessary death and rebirth experience, from which alone comes a genuine rebuilding of the soul or the authentic self. And finally, Love can only change people who have the seed of Love firmly conditioned into them. Which, as Christ also alluded, is very few. But organized Christianity, as is the case with all religions for that matter, is totally blind to this tragic fact and remains bent on wholesale (give 'em all a drink) style 'salvation'. Which is one of the reasons it continues to fail to produce any goods. Another one being that there are no living Christs anywhere in Christendom. And if anyone therein did attain to such a level, or ideally goes beyond, they would clearly see the irreparable ignorance and corruption that's deeply inherent in it and would have to remove themselves from the dark and decaying organization. Yet real, radiant Christianity is perhaps still possible, but it would most definitely have to be an esoteric adventure. Though my current feeling is that the soon-coming human species saving religion will be a totally new Religion of Love. One that's away from the mainstream of life. One that's free of all dogma, doctrines, division, exclusivity, boundaries, and ridgid moralizing. And above all, one that's full of truth, love, and above all, UNDERSTANDING.

An afterthought: I think here of the extremely brilliant and insightful, self-proclaimed "Godman", Franklin Jones. Who recently came to the end of his days being a total failure in bringing the "bright" into our dark, dark world. As was the same case with all of them from the Buddha on down to the present time. Hmmm. Perhaps since the beginning of time might be more correct here.

Providence even blessed Jones with an ideal setting to build a new society, a new world. But he wasn't up to par for the task and clearly blew it.

Bob Michael · Post by **Bob Michael** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:07 am

David Quinn wrote:As long as it is love for all things equally, and not just love for a few things (i.e. a wife).

When it is love for all things equally, it become the rarest of human actions - namely, love of God.

When it is love for a few things only, it remains the commonest of human actions - namely, love of happiness and security - i.e. standard egotism.

I have never said that I love only my wife, friends, offspring, ex-family members etc., David. For instance, I've not seen nor heard from any of my 4 grown sons for years. Which is perfectly fine with me. However, last week I bumped into son #3 (first marriage - 22 years) at a farmer's market. I spoke to him and his second wife of one year for about an hour. We took some pictures of each other and parted ways, very likely to never meet again. It was the first time in about 4-5 years that I had any contact with him. Upon parting I reflected back some more on him and my other sons with some sorrow in my heart. Since, quite frankly, while they're good, decent, intelligent, responsible and even quite 'successful' individuals, I'm thoroughly convinced they'll never receive the gift that I've be given. The reason being that they lack the keen soul-sensitivity that I've been granted. I too have come to understand the reasons for their lack of sensitivity. Hence, they are 'happily' caught up in the ways of the world. And at ages 44, 48, and 49, I doubt very, very much if any radical departure from existing worldly patterns will ever take place in any of them. Son #4 (2nd marriage - 4 years), who is around 27, I've had absolutely no contact with for over 24 years. So I have no idea on his status. Though I'm reasonably sure the world has him in its pocket too. Especially having been raised by a single mother in these last troubled times. And I've similarly had no contact with son #1 for well over 20 years.

I also know many, many people from the fellowship of A. A. Yet among them all I have no close friends, nor do I really seek any either. Likewise I know no one among them who's on my wavelength. I know some people with good minds and hearts, but they've never fully surrendered. Hence, they live a sort of half-measure or half-hearted spiritual life. They may well be reasonably happy and content, but supreme happiness and contentment will never be theirs. Supreme happiness and contentment being reserved for perfectionists alone.

So David, I do indeed know what impersonal love is. To love all people, places, and things equally and geniunely. I too know what it is to detach (fully detach) from others with love AND understanding. But even if one has the gift of impersonal love, that love can only be shared with others on a considerably limited basis due to their lacking of the capacity for impersonal love. However, and listen up here, David, if a man and a woman happen to meet who both have the capacity for impersonal love and form an alliance, then you have something which is very rare and totally indescribable. Though Paul's mention of 'two becoming one flesh' I find quite fitting. Or perhaps one could call it a kind of love which surpasses even the finest of impersonal love. Or perhaps pure divinely-orchestrated love between a man and a woman. An example of which, along with how it was made manifest, the world is sorely in need of, as I've said before. Actually I feel I'm saying very little that's new here. Perhaps it may be better refined, but little is really new.

David Quinn wrote:Wisdom is love of God.

I would say, from my own personal adventures, that wisdom, real deep and unlimited wisdom, is the product of painfully and painstakingly rediscovering the love of God in all its fullness, glory, AND perfection. And the same is true of serenity or peace of mind and joy. And any wisdom not so gained will have grave limitations. Many men have known and experienced the territory of enlightenment (the Kingdom), but very, very few of them had a sufficient understanding of themselves and that territory. Hence their failures to bring in any appreciable Light and the continuing awaiting of the finally perfected.....ah.....should we say, Superman? Nietzsche's prophesized "redeeming man of great love and contempt"? That rare man whose has the courage for the abyss? Time will tell, I suppose.

An afterthought: Many years ago (20+?) I was reading a biography on Hermann Hesse. In the book was a picture of Hesse and his three grown sons. At the time I wondered, half-knowingly, whether they had what their dad had. Today I know the answer and clearly understand the situation from my own experiences and observations.

Dennis Mahar · Post by **Dennis Mahar** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:21 am

Bob,

And I say this from my many years of experience with online forum discussion activity and also my many, many years of sharing at A. A. meetings. All the while knowing of no one who's radically transformed and on my wavelength, so to speak. There may be one or two exceptions here online, but without meeting them in person I can't really be all that certain of the quality and depth of their spiritual knowledge and integrity. And there are definitely a few potentially transformable souls in the A. A. rooms. And do note that I offer a window of 5% of humanity that may be capable of understanding me and more importantly the points I try to get across. I too have come to realize that my message needs some further fine-tuning which continues in earnest. And again I feel strongly that this medium of communication is not at all conducive to bringing about any real revolutionary change in others and consequently that a person-to-person setting is absolutely necessary for the job.

Because all phenomena including you depends for its existence.
There is no separate you.
Putting yourself in a position of prominence relative to what seems like separate phenomena around you is ego attachment.
A Story for ego to get by.

David Quinn · Post by **David Quinn** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:38 am

Bob Michael wrote:So David, I do indeed know what impersonal love is. To love all people, places, and things equally and geniunely. I too know what it is to detach (fully detach) from others with love AND understanding. But even if one has the gift of personal love, that love can only be shared with others on a considerably limited basis due to their lacking of the capacity for impersonal love. However, and listen up here, David, if a man and a woman happen to meet who both have the capacity for impersonal love and form an alliance, then you have something which is very rare and totally indescribable.

But nevertheless built on sand.

What would happen if, say, your wife was brutally raped by an intruder, with you watching on, powerless to do anything? How would your impersonal love of God fare then? Would you love the intruder and the situation at hand as much as you do your wife? Or would you fall into the darkness of rage and the burning urge for revenge, just like any other husband would? Be honest!

Personal love is fundamentally at odds with impersonal love. The one automatically negates the other. "You cannot serve two masters", as someone once said. To insist that they are compatible is the height of buffoonary - and very, very conventional.

-

David Quinn · Post by **David Quinn** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:49 am

jupiviv wrote:
Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
jupiviv wrote:The value that you put on chocolate bars isn't affected by the quantity of them that you perceive around yourself.
It's about the difference between a particular instance and the general issue in its entirety.

In David's instance it's what he has to offer the world, which, as he wrote: "would be of little value" in his imagined enlightened society.
A wise person only has wisdom to offer to the world, both generally and in particular instances. This doesn't mean he can't "do things", but it also doesn't mean that he has to become a brick mason in any particular instance where there are a lot of wise people around.

Besides, I think it's useless to continue this discussion until David clarifies what he means.

It's not hard to understand what I meant. In this day and age, wisdom is a rare and precious commodity. If I, and those like me, don't devote themselves to propogating it, then who will? It will remain marginalized and ineffectual; it could even die out. That's why it is important for those who are lucky enough to be connected to wisdom to do whatever they can to maximize their potential, even if it means doing frowned-upon things like going on the dole.

If it was a different kind of society, one in which wisdom played the central role and most people were intimately involved in it, then things would different. I wouldn't be able to justify being on the dole and leaving the practical work to others. I woud have to pitch in and do my share as well, which I would do gladly.

-

GENIUS FORUMS

The Qualities of a Divinely Inclined Person.....

Re: The Qualities of a Divinely Inclined Person.....

Re: The Qualities of a Divinely Inclined Person.....

Re: The Qualities of a Divinely Inclined Person.....

Re: The Qualities of a Divinely Inclined Person.....

Re: The Qualities of a Divinely Inclined Person.....

Re: The Qualities of a Divinely Inclined Person.....

Re: The Qualities of a Divinely Inclined Person.....

Re: The Qualities of a Divinely Inclined Person.....

Re: The Qualities of a Divinely Inclined Person.....

Re: The Qualities of a Divinely Inclined Person.....

Re: The Qualities of a Divinely Inclined Person.....

Re: The Qualities of a Divinely Inclined Person.....

Re: The Qualities of a Divinely Inclined Person.....

Re: The Qualities of a Divinely Inclined Person.....

Re: The Qualities of a Divinely Inclined Person.....

Re: The Qualities of a Divinely Inclined Person.....

Re: The Qualities of a Divinely Inclined Person.....

Re: The Qualities of a Divinely Inclined Person.....

Re: The Qualities of a Divinely Inclined Person.....

Re: The Qualities of a Divinely Inclined Person.....

Re: The Qualities of a Divinely Inclined Person.....

Re: The Qualities of a Divinely Inclined Person.....

Re: The Qualities of a Divinely Inclined Person.....

Re: The Qualities of a Divinely Inclined Person.....

Re: The Qualities of a Divinely Inclined Person.....