GENIUS FORUMS

Kelly, if it wasn't already obvious, I feel very good releasing those chemicals. I enjoy them and seek ways to get them more. I've already talked at length about how I think some instincts are separate and not deletable like some emotions are. You can do a search if you're interested.

Kelly wrote:The reason Hakuin located the Dharma in his lower abdomen, was because he needed to "ground himself", and bring his intellectual understanding into harmony with his everyday life. That's all. It wasn't anything sexual.

Aside from what I already wrote, I'm still not seeing a connection between what his abdomen has to do with "grounding himself", etc. His abdomen? Like, his stomach? Care to elaborate?

I enjoy them and seek ways to get them more.

But pain is always attached to those feelings. You won't avoid them.

For instance, your sexual partners might not tell you the truth about their HIV status, or other venereal diseases. Or a baby you helped to make, but didn't know about, was so unwanted by everyone, that it grew up with a deep sense of self-contempt and anger at the world, perhaps seeking you out in a murderous rage to blame you for its whole miserable life. Or you might get punched out by the boyfriend you didn't know about. Or your wife (whoever it is at the time) might cheat on you, or be very emotionally needy, or be a shopaholic, and more trouble than the sex is worth. There are always consequences.

No doubt, you don't enjoy all those other feelings equally: anger, humiliation, resentment, guilt, jealousy, feeling exploited like a commodity in a vile trade.

Are you sure those "enjoyable" feelings are just a biochemical thing, or do you think there's something else involved? Like - excitement at the danger involved, a sense of power through the mystery of your seducer status, and the like? Maybe it's the latter that is filling a sense of emptiness in you.

Maybe you were interested in philosophy only insofar as the unusual ideas, and "wild-man" nomadic status, made you feel alive and vibrant. So when the ideas petered out, life lost its lustre and thrill for you. Then you stepped back down into worldliness to get the thrills of emotions - something - anything at all.

.

Nothin' worse than dried up Jelly, ..whoops I mean Kelly.

No, not the stomach. It is a point just below the navel when the body is upright. It's the centre of gravity of the torso, the main bodily mass. The legs just support it, keeping balance. By focussing on making that point the centre of one's consciousness, during introspective meditation, it effectively grounds one psychologically, and physiologically.

Hakuin had Zen sickness, where his great desire to enlighten himself, staying up meditating night after night, eventually exhausted him and caused him to develop an anxiety disorder by his thirties. He invented this technique to ground himself, because he'd get dizzy spells, chest pains, a roaring in his ears, weeping eyes, and so forth. There are similarities with hot-headed people who probably feel like a feverish fire is burning up all their energy, particularly feeling hot in the head. It wasn't really a problem with his "kensho", but there were deeper delusions that came along for the ride, which eventually built and built over time, creating the illness. So he used this technique to visualise all the burning heat in his head descending back down to that point, circulating and brewing there like a vital elixir sustaining his energy.

I'll upload some of it to the library on my website soon, for what it's worth.

.

Kelly Jones wrote:Hakuin had Zen sickness, where his great desire to enlighten himself, staying up meditating night after night, eventually exhausted him and caused him to develop an anxiety disorder by his thirties. He invented this technique to ground himself, because he'd get dizzy spells, chest pains, a roaring in his ears, weeping eyes, and so forth. There are similarities with hot-headed people who probably feel like a feverish fire is burning up all their energy, particularly feeling hot in the head. It wasn't really a problem with his "kensho", but there were deeper delusions that came along for the ride, which eventually built and built over time, creating the illness. So he used this technique to visualise all the burning heat in his head descending back down to that point, circulating and brewing there like a vital elixir sustaining his energy.

I don't believe Hakuin did that. If thinking causes that much trouble to a person then they'll probably never get enlightened. Also, you'd expect a man like Hakuin to try to reason his way out of the problem, rather than try something like that.

Romanticism is rejection of reality. A powerful lie that acts as a mental antidote to reality. Its a reaction to fear. Using one drug to cope with the side-effects of another. An example of unwillingness or inability to evolve into a fully adult human. A totally conscious being. Conscious of Totality, which is a state of awareness. The fully conscious application of thought. Meaning, true and not false.

Who lives in hope, dies in despair.

Hakuin's most well-known writings include a lot of autobiographical content, which I believe include descriptions of Zen sickness. Like the visit to Hakuju (Hakuin himself presumably).

I reckon it's a case of the spirit (or rather, the soul) being willing, but the body not being able to keep up. Nietzsche and Kierkegaard were the same. The bodhicitta mind is uncompromising, but the body cannot necessarily handle the demands or the pace. So one has to find ways to help the body to help the mind to live according to the spirit for the long haul.

One thing that might be pertinent here, is to consider that Zen Buddhism can include "gruesome" austerities. One of Hakuin's favourite examples was the monk who would stab himself in the thigh with a gimlet (old-fashioned small drill), to keep himself from falling asleep. He, and many of the monks he speaks of, would go without sleep for days, live on as little food as possible (Hakuin also pitched himself the challenge of meditation for a month on one handful of rice per day), hitting each other with a stick if they drop off to sleep, and the like. The physical transformation of his students, from healthy, plump-cheeked, sleek-skinned, handsome humans, into withered, haggard, wiry, hawk-like disciples was something he was very proud of. It showed their commitment. And he mentioned that the small temple at Shoinji had a graveyard, which had claimed quite a few students.

There are all kinds of ways to challenge attachments, and these might not be the kind that stimulate the most progress. But it shouldn't be forgotten that the Genius Forum is very mediocre, even though it's one of the most pure and stringent venues teaching Zen. It has to be said.

.

Listen to this bitch, she snorts untruths out of her nose.

Would you want to spend one second of your time with "kelly jones" ?

Please, chuck prince out on his fucking arse. He's not doing anyone any good around here.

Kelly Jones wrote:But pain is always attached to those feelings. You won't avoid them.

I think that's a mistaken meme. If a person doesn't have a connection to reality and doesn't really know what they're doing when they do it, I can see how it would be hard to exert any kind of direction toward maintaining pleasure and avoiding pain. That is what the whole samsara doctrine is about, but it's wrong to think that these or anything that makes pleasure automatically makes pain later. Most of my life has been pleasure.

Kelly Jones wrote:I reckon it's a case of the spirit (or rather, the soul) being willing, but the body not being able to keep up. Nietzsche and Kierkegaard were the same. The bodhicitta mind is uncompromising, but the body cannot necessarily handle the demands or the pace. So one has to find ways to help the body to help the mind to live according to the spirit for the long haul.

Interesting again. This is actually exactly how I feel. I used sex as one example earlier because I like sex and always like to make an example out of it, but my experiences with getting the body used to what the mind demands includes everything under the sun. You can know in your mind very well how you think and feel about something at a fundamental level, but sometimes the body isn't ready. Your guts require training.

skipair wrote:Kelly, if it wasn't already obvious, I feel very good releasing those chemicals. I enjoy them and seek ways to get them more.

Are heroin, ecstasy, and/or cocaine an option for you? These drugs release massive amounts of those chemicals in your brain that you seek out and cherish, so it would seem like the next logical step in your path to experiencing ever-more pleasure. Plus they cut out the "middle man" so-to-speak, making the process much more effortless. If they are not an option for you; then why not?

Robert wrote:Please, chuck prince out on his fucking arse. He's not doing anyone any good around here.

Observing him over the past year has been like watching a train wreck. One wonders how long it's going to last.

Nick Treklis wrote:Are heroin, ecstasy, and/or cocaine an option for you?

No because:
1) I like to be self-willed with them to the degree I can
2) Bad for the body
3) Downtime between them makes hell, whereas I don't feel hell between the naural chemicals as is, it's just chill time

skipair wrote:1) I like to be self-willed with them to the degree I can

Maybe I don't quite understand what you mean here, but if getting high is what you care most about, and high is what you are; is that really something you're going to care about?

skipair wrote:2) Bad for the body

MDMA (ecstasy) in it's pure form is one of the safest drugs you can take in terms of dependency and physical harm. (just thought I'd throw that in there)

Nick Treklis wrote:Maybe I don't quite understand what you mean here, but if getting high is what you care most about, and high is what you are; is that really something you're going to care about?

I'm not sure I would call it getting high so much as feeling natural. Originally I was talking about expressing aggression and sexuality. Depending on the environment those instincts kick in, and I aim to let them take me to the degree my best judgment says I should.

MDMA (ecstasy) in it's pure form is one of the safest drugs you can take in terms of dependency and physical harm. (just thought I'd throw that in there)

Will this be on the test?

Skip, you say you're interested in furthering enjoyment. Earlier, at least as I understood it, you said this enjoyment was biochemical and not intellectually driven, because you believed it couldn't be abandoned at all --- unlike how one abandons an intellectual error. In that case, you would be talking about bodily health, and your aim would be to avoid the biochemical signals of pain signifying bodily dysfunction. Is this generally your meaning?

If so, you would be valuing not enjoyment, but bodily health, and therefore my question is: why would you pay more attention to the chemical signals rather than to a scientific and rational knowledge of how the body functions best? For instance, "feeling good" might actually be a misfiring in the brain.

Another question related to metaphysics. Since God is changeless, and the ups and downs of biochemical fluctuations clearly change, why should one regard feelings of enjoyment as metaphysically related?

.

Kelly Jones wrote:The bodhicitta mind is uncompromising, but the body cannot necessarily handle the demands or the pace. So one has to find ways to help the body to help the mind to live according to the spirit for the long haul.

Mind and heart(body) are the same. In Sanskrit, the word for mind is also the word for the heart/soul. So whatever a person's thinks will not contradict with his heart(body.) If it does, then he isn't thinking properly.

One thing that might be pertinent here, is to consider that Zen Buddhism can include "gruesome" austerities. One of Hakuin's favourite examples was the monk who would stab himself in the thigh with a gimlet (old-fashioned small drill), to keep himself from falling asleep. He, and many of the monks he speaks of, would go without sleep for days, live on as little food as possible (Hakuin also pitched himself the challenge of meditation for a month on one handful of rice per day), hitting each other with a stick if they drop off to sleep, and the like. The physical transformation of his students, from healthy, plump-cheeked, sleek-skinned, handsome humans, into withered, haggard, wiry, hawk-like disciples was something he was very proud of. It showed their commitment. And he mentioned that the small temple at Shoinji had a graveyard, which had claimed quite a few students.

I don't have any problems with that, as long as it is done with the correct purposes in mind, and as long as the students don't get attached to those practices(like some Christians are attached to penance.) When perfect understanding is achieved, those things aren't necessary, as the mind is in meditation regardless of what you do.

Kelly Jones wrote:Skip, you say you're interested in furthering enjoyment. Earlier, at least as I understood it, you said this enjoyment was biochemical and not intellectually driven, because you believed it couldn't be abandoned at all --- unlike how one abandons an intellectual error. In that case, you would be talking about bodily health, and your aim would be to avoid the biochemical signals of pain signifying bodily dysfunction. Is this generally your meaning?

Yes. I'll also add that there are always mental perspectives that go along with the body. They can't ever be separated, really. But for someone like me who's been in his head and out of his body for many years now, there is another education process of remembering that the body also informs the mind.

If so, you would be valuing not enjoyment, but bodily health, and therefore my question is: why would you pay more attention to the chemical signals rather than to a scientific and rational knowledge of how the body functions best? For instance, "feeling good" might actually be a misfiring in the brain.

Sure, the body isn't a perfect instrument, but all things considered it's normally very consistent and accurate in telling us what it needs to stay healthy and what it doesn't. I also see plenty of value in what science might tell us about it.

There are also cultural influences that affect the body. The group bond has extended in many ways into all of society. Things like showing overt aggression or sexuality can now land you in jail very easily. But these are two of the most fundamental instincts for what it means to be a human, or at least a man.

Only in the past year or two have I realized how to tap into these animal roots. Before that time I was unconsciously conditioned to put a cap on those instincts and not let them out. And this translated into feeling extremely stifled; there were things going on in my body and I was conditioned to interpret them as unwanted, and this caused somewhat severe discomfort.

Now I let my body do its thing. I don't have to act, but at the least I can feel it. For example I was hanging out with two guys the other day and it was a new social dynamic. For whatever reason, there was a sense of who was making alliances with who. I wasn't amused by whatever they were talking about and the different ways they'd try to provoke me. Eventually it seemed they understood this and then one tried to take it to the next level.

Out of nowhere, I suddenly felt an ocean of chemicals rushing through my body and a sense that one of them was gearing up to fight. My spine lengthened, blood filled my chest and shoulders as they filled with energy, yet loosened, ready for action, my face and eyes deadened, and my breath very slow and very heavy. My visuals were absolutely brutal shit, killing, throwing cars, uprooting trees - a complete rampage, but my mind was totally calm. We were just sitting there, actually.

Then it seemed to me that the guys didn't want to fight me, they wanted to fight WITH me. And the rest of the night went very smoothly. When I think back to all the times I might have bottled that up, or bottled up sexuality, or watching other people bottle up their instincts, a lot of psychological phantoms arise. Trying to fix THOSE is nothing compared to finding their source.

Another question related to metaphysics. Since God is changeless, and the ups and downs of biochemical fluctuations clearly change, why should one regard feelings of enjoyment as metaphysically related?

To reiterate a point I've made before, associating consciousness and understanding with the word 'God' is a great selling point for extremely newbie thinkers, but beyond that it is a totally ridiculous reference.

That aside, I wouldn't call it metaphysical in an intellectual sense, but as I tried to show in the above story, it's also not exactly separate either, and thus might as well also be called metaphysical.

skipair wrote:When I think back to all the times I might have bottled that up, or bottled up sexuality, or watching other people bottle up their instincts, a lot of psychological phantoms arise. Trying to fix THOSE is nothing compared to finding their source.

Expressing "instincts" isn't the same as understanding their source. The source of male animal instincts like lust and aggression is precisely animal: fight sexual rivals or threats to the tribe, mate with as many females as possible. It's not hard to understand that. The thing is, what on earth has expressing that animal drive got to do with philosophy? Nothing.

Kelly: Another question related to metaphysics. Since God is changeless, and the ups and downs of biochemical fluctuations clearly change, why should one regard feelings of enjoyment as metaphysically related?

skipair: To reiterate a point I've made before, associating consciousness and understanding with the word 'God' is a great selling point for extremely newbie thinkers, but beyond that it is a totally ridiculous reference.

I can interchange it with causation. I'm flexible. God carries connotations of absolute creativity. So, replacing "God" with "causation", the question reads: "since the fact of causation is changeless, and the ups and downs of biochemical fluctuations clearly change, why should one regard feelings of enjoyment as metaphysically related?"

That aside, I wouldn't call it metaphysical in an intellectual sense, but as I tried to show in the above story, it's also not exactly separate either, and thus might as well also be called metaphysical.

The story you gave had absolutely nothing I could read as metaphysical. Metaphysics is what is ultimately true for physics or physicality. You presented a story about reading base animal instincts at play in others, which is remedial psychology.


.

Kelly Jones wrote:The thing is, what on earth has expressing that animal drive got to do with philosophy? Nothing.

No, nothing in the usual sense. I see philosophy as everything - as how people think about all things. I am backwards compared to most people. I got smart first and am just now figuring out the animal stuff in at least some senses. Both teh intellect and the animal are important to a person's overall philosophy on life, as both present themselves to us in this life.

I can interchange it with causation.

Naturally. To be clear, my newb comment wasn't in reference to you.

The story you gave had absolutely nothing I could read as metaphysical. Metaphysics is what is ultimately true for physics or physicality. You presented a story about reading base animal instincts at play in others, which is remedial psychology.

Metaphysics to me is perspective based - awareness of personal definition and categories in the context of the All. I admit that I'm stretching to include instincts, but since I pointed out that a blocking of instincts is a source of many psychological problems, and that not blocking them relieves those problems, I also see the body-mind connection as relevant to someone's personal philosophy/metaphysics. At least in that context.

skipair wrote:I got smart first and am just now figuring out the animal stuff in at least some senses. Both teh intellect and the animal are important to a person's overall philosophy on life, as both present themselves to us in this life.

The animal is - by definition - not intellectual. It's not rational. Thus, what reason do you have for regarding the expression of primitive drives, as rational, when they're just chemical drives for the purpose of manipulating an irrational creature to procreate?

Kelly: since the fact of causation is changeless, and the ups and downs of biochemical fluctuations clearly change, why should one regard feelings of enjoyment as metaphysically related?"

skip: I admit that I'm stretching to include instincts, but since I pointed out that a blocking of instincts is a source of many psychological problems, and that not blocking them relieves those problems, I also see the body-mind connection as relevant to someone's personal philosophy/metaphysics. At least in that context.

But if you feel happy on expressing aggression and lust, you haven't relieved the problem, just submitted to what the chemicals are 'designed' to make you submit to. To what extent are you actually engaging in psychological scrutiny about why you find it pleasing to hate Reality (which is the drive underlying both aggression and lust)?

.

Kelly Jones wrote:prince, what would you call a hetero male who, maybe once every couple of months, dreams that he bangs silly-headed blondes, who are all alike, all silly and mindless, but otherwise never has sex?.

A male version of you?

After deleting the words "A male version of", that answer is spot on. That is what I have been for years, more or less.

I remember posting in late 2004 to the old Genius ezboard forum, that menstruating women should lie on a sheet of plastic for a week, to let the blood and psychological tensions of hormonal imbalances flood out --- just celebrate the opportunity for meditation. Sexual desire is the same. Some people see red when they have to wait in traffic, or get so aroused when they have sexual dreams; the rest are glad for the opportunity to contemplate and wonder.

.

well that's all sweet and lovely Kelly, but you still have that desire to propel your genes inside you, everyone does.

You only exist at all because of sexual desire. As do I, as does anyone else reading this now.

It's not the time to contemplate and wonder, the human race must continue so that it can master the universe and develop technology to the point where they can literally raise people from the dead using dna replication abstracted from light beams near the omega point in the future of the universal expansion.

That is how you and I will exist forever, and indeed all people.