Being intelligent and being informed

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Ataraxia
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Re: Being intelligent and being informed

Post by Ataraxia »

vicdan wrote:There is no special 'talent' to it -- I simply spent many years learning everything I could get my hands on, so i can draw upon the library of human knowledge in areas as disparate as philosophy, economics, physics, history, etc.
I was very much like this in my late twenties and through most of my thirties.(I'm now 41)-I spent alot of time reading everything i could on history,science,political science and economics(economics was my specialty).

I'm currently attempting to get to the bottom of what philosophy is all about.It's early days for me but i think it may well take up the rest of my life.

The main conclusion I've reached thus far is that in every field there is a vaste amount of 'noise'.This particularly applies to economics in my view,and with each passing year it seems to get 'noisier' to the detriment of what economics is really about.I rarely read financial newspapers these days,but when i do i have to laugh at the mental gymnastics economists appear to get themselves into these days as a result.The Ludwig Mies' 'Less is more' is never more true than in economics,in my opinion.

Theres been alot of talk in this forum lately of what constitutes genius.My take on it is that it is ones abilitity to "Get to the heart of matters" rationally,no matter the field.

From my observation of the short time I've spent rerading this forum 'QRS' appear to have a talent for this - at least on the subject of philosophy.
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Re: Being intelligent and being informed

Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

Dan,
Let me ask you, why do you hold onto the idea that your father should have been something he wasn't?
I can't decide whether what he did was deliberate or not. Like, if it was deliberate, the man managed to successfully raise children despite a divorce. I'd have a hard time forgiving him if he did it unconsciously, though.

My belief that he did it consciously is what turned me into a philosopher. If that belief vanishes! Well, everything that made me love thinking is a lie.
Do you feel that apparent expectation is legitimate?
Yes. If he is just a dick who was spouting off spiritual mumbo-jumbo to his poor trusting son... you know what? His brain was fried by someone like me, who probably did it out of boredom at a party one time.

Can I love a man who lives in samsara? In principle, I must.

Perhaps I will take Nick's advice and take a break from this forum for a while. Thanks for your insight Dan.
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David Quinn
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Re: Being intelligent and being informed

Post by David Quinn »

vicdan wrote:That is true. Mere brainpower is overrated. As with any tool, it's not enough to have it -- it must be applied constructively.

Given that we sit on top of thousands of years of human thought, it's generally idiotic (with very few exceptions) to assume that a given problem hasn't been tackled before in such a way as to produce something useful to the present inquiry. Which is to say, knowledge -- of what has come before us, of what was thought and discovered by the giants on whose shoulders we stand -- is of paramount importance when it comes to understanding any issue or solving any problem.

This is mainly true for academic and technical forms of knowledge. It doesn't really apply when it comes to a deeper, more personal understanding of things. Here, every individual starts from scratch. He can be inspired and stimulated by past works, but he alone has to start from the very beginning and work out what is ultimately true for himself.

When it comes to matters of the spirit, the scientific and academic progress of the human race has little relevance.

This is why i look is such stunned amazement at people who deride drawing upon the accumulated library of human knowledge as 'not thinking for yourself'. You know what i am talking about, you meet all the time the losers who try to make a virtue (of 'independent thinking') out of ignorance, who deride drawing upon extant knowledge as 'not thinking for one's self', and who assume that their ignorant musings somehow trump centuries of careful thought, experiment, and analysis.

QRS for example ignore the entire 20th century of philosophy. This comes to bite them in the ass time and time again, because the 20th century is when the greatest advances in logic and epistemology were made.
They are superficial advances, Victor, which have no impact on a person's ability to reach the ultimate understanding for himself. From the perspective of wisdom, 20th century philosophy is little more than a diversion, a side-track, a blind alley. That is why I liken it to medieval theology.

You have sold your soul to intellectual fashion, Victor, and now you are taking it out on the rest of us.

What's more, various branches of human knowledge often intertwine, and you can get vast synergy benefits out of being able to pull different areas of knowledge together. To use QRS for demonstrative purposes again, today I have rubbed Dan's face in the falsity of the QRS assumption that something being indubitable entails it being true. Had Dan known about 20th century physics or Enlightenment-era mathematics, he would have himself been able to recognize the fallacy of such an assumption, because the two counter-examples i used (non-Euclidean geometry and quantum superposition) are rather well-known concepts in those fields, and both represent stark examples of apparent indubitability being upended in a most dramatic fashion.

In short, yeah, knowledge is important -- both knowledge of the subject in question, and of the larges corpus of human knowledge.
Of what use is all this knowledge if you are unable to distinguish real facts from red-herrings?

-
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Pincho Paxton
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Re: Being intelligent and being informed

Post by Pincho Paxton »

I'm all for using the brainpower of our ancestors to gain knowledge that will benefit us in our knowledge base. However, if you just take a look at the current situation in science, and Quantum Physics you will actually find (with an open mind) that everything is falling apart at the seams.

Gravity no longer works for distant galaxies.
The Big Bang no longer works because the universe is expanding at an accelerating velocity. And particles can't group together because they would all be travelling in the same direction.
Quantum Physics have never given out results that anyone can understand.
Many mathematical problems end up with infinate energy requirements.

Only I have solved all of these problems, and it was by ignoring the knowledge base, and starting from scratch. So no matter how you manage to store information, and remember it, and you have a capacity for it. You are storing bad information. Whereas, this capacity to store all of this information will also make you more successful at ignoring my independent theory. Hence lies the failure in IQ Genius. High IQ means that you will ignore the truth longer than anyone else, unless you have a specialised Genius trait that gives you the huge capacity to break down my theory yourself without using past knowledge as your argument. I mean it is enough for me to look at new theories based on the fact that current theories are failing all of the time.
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vicdan
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Re: Being intelligent and being informed

Post by vicdan »

Get help.
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Pincho Paxton
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Re: Being intelligent and being informed

Post by Pincho Paxton »

vicdan wrote:Get help.
Well... exactly my point!
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Jamesh
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Re: Being intelligent and being informed

Post by Jamesh »

Theres been alot of talk in this forum lately of what constitutes genius.My take on it is that it is ones abilitity to "Get to the heart of matters" rationally,no matter the field.
I'm just a little above average IQ dude, but this business of "getting to the heart of matters" is why philosophy suits me. When an older teen, I was far better at it than my peers, and I am now most often better at it than all my work colleagues. I think I have a brain that likes generalisations rather than detail, however, as a result I'm not very good at retrieving details from memory. As soon as I see the big picture in relation to some specific situtation, I tend to lose interest, and don't tend to fill my mind with petty details.

I do speculate a lot, and as such do get a lot wrong, but I take the view that it is only what one gets right that counts, the wrong speculations just dissolve into the past, while the correct speculations roll on into the future.
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maestro
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Re: Being intelligent and being informed

Post by maestro »

David Quinn wrote: This is mainly true for academic and technical forms of knowledge. It doesn't really apply when it comes to a deeper, more personal understanding of things. Here, every individual starts from scratch. He can be inspired and stimulated by past works, but he alone has to start from the very beginning and work out what is ultimately true for himself.
This is so now, but it is not necessary that it be true forever. If children are given the right world view from beginning, they need not discover the truth, they would have it as a part of their worldview. Sadly the work of giants such as Buddha which is more relevant to life, than say calculus is not even taught in school.
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vicdan
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Re: Being intelligent and being informed

Post by vicdan »

They were taught in school in countries where buddhism is widespread... a fat lot of good it did them.
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Imadrongo
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Re: Being intelligent and being informed

Post by Imadrongo »

History is important!

Examples:
Forgetting the history of organisms -> believing the human is some special, set apart being created by God.

Forgetting the history of language -> metaphysics.
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maestro
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Re: Being intelligent and being informed

Post by maestro »

vicdan wrote:They were taught in school in countries where buddhism is widespread... a fat lot of good it did them.
I doubt that, all over the world educational institutes are uniformly western. If anything was taught it must have been a matter of rote or in a dry abstract manner. Truths such as conditioned origination, interdependent existence or the absence of a self if 'taught' in a proper way would indeed radically transform the world. This is because many evils in the world come from an unawareness of cause and effect and ego.
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daybrown
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Re: Being intelligent and being informed

Post by daybrown »

IQ tests were designed to identify the likelihood of success in academic and corporate cultures. Speed of processing is very important. Those whose minds work more slowly, can also work more deeply. Those who can work alone are not limited by group think.

Much of what passes for intelligence is the facility of quickly coming up with reasons to justify unsupported premises that the group already has. Being informed, only in that which supports the group think, is rewarded. Being aware of downsides or unintended consequences, which commonly come from thinking more deeply on a matter, are suppressed. Ambivalence and doubt are regarded as heresy.

Dr. Freud noted that neurotics cant tolerate ambiguity, and therefore tend to jump to conclusions based on inadequate data. He also comments on the ingenuity applied to explain why one thinks as one does despite the presentation of contrary facts revealed later. Finally, if you do manage to dispel an illusion, the reaction is anger.

Epictetus commented on this, noting that when a man proved he was wrong, he was grateful to no longer be thinking wrongly. However, he added, that when he performs the same service for another, the man always goes away angry.

Nowhere is this combination of group think and neurosis so obvious as with 911. The media, aware of the distress of the public, and for the sake of ratings, wanted to come out with explanations first, which they knew would settle the fear of the public. The government provided those explanations which fit within its own group think, which the media accepted without much intelligent, logical, examination.

Then, when other questions which were not at first considered were presented, or others arose as other bits of data came in, as these were posted the immediate and most common response was anger, typified by sarcasm and ad hominum to anyone daring to challenge the group think. Becoming 'informed' meant dealing with a much wider set of data than was presented in the aftermath, or even to the 911 commission.

A lot of people simply did not want to think about all that. It was too much, and exceeded their attention spans. That mass represented a powerful political force which some saw as useful in the pursuance of their own agendas, so they pandered to it, in part by being dismissive of any data that contradicted the original group think. A lot of intelligent people are already too busy with their lives and careers to have the time to be that well informed about an event with so many different theories and partisans promoting them.

For them, the way to "move on" was to park 911 in the past and let it go. There's been a good case that congress already had too much to deal with besides a more thorough investigation of what 911 was all about. For if 911 was not just Islamic terrorists, then it opened up to much ambiguity for the neurotic mass mind to deal with as to who all was involved.

But whatever, if we are now to be intelligent and informed, then its worth considering on where things will go from here. Knowing what we do about group think, all these questions about 911 will continue to simmer on the back burner as long as the global economy keeps on. That issue depends in large part on what the foreign holders of dollar denominated investments will make of further, and somewhat obscure, reports now being posted as those who were in a position in the US government and military retire, and thereby free themselves from the group think imposed by their career ambitions.

We have to think about how intelligent and informed global investors are. So far, they look pretty stupid, altho they could all be operating on the 'greater fool' theory of markets. In any event we simply do not have access to economic data we can trust. Ever since stock and commodity prices was first published a couple hundred years ago, the price of gold rose as the price of stock fell in expectation of lower profits, and as the outlook improved, the precious metals prices fell while stocks and bonds rose. People sold gold to buy stock or vice versus.

But now in recent times, *BOTH* precious metals and paper investments have risen together. This doe not make any sense. Where does the money come from? The simple answer is that the governments are issuing the digital money to the brokerage houses to maintain the prices of paper as harder assets rise. Its the proverbial 800 lb gorilla that nobody in the financial community has written about.

The intelligent and informed can see that insiders know when the price of paper assets will be supported, and when they will be allowed to fall. This has been driving small investors out of the market, leaving only those in government with defacto ownership of the capitalist markets. We have a word for that from 20th century history: "fascism". Fascism also worked out the techniques of mass group think.
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Rhett
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Re: Being intelligent and being informed

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Daybrown: IQ tests were designed to identify the likelihood of success in academic and corporate cultures. Speed of processing is very important. Those whose minds work more slowly, can also work more deeply
The way i see it, the speed of a mind is independent of it's depth. The worst mind is slow and shallow, a better mind is fast and shallow, much better is slow and deep, the best mind can choose it's speed and is deep. Enlightenment needs depth, and speed means there can be more of it.

Daybrown: Those who can work alone are not limited by group think.
I like that.

Daybrown: Much of what passes for intelligence is the facility of quickly coming up with reasons to justify unsupported premises that the group already has. Being informed, only in that which supports the group think, is rewarded. Being aware of downsides or unintended consequences, which commonly come from thinking more deeply on a matter, are suppressed. Ambivalence and doubt are regarded as heresy.
I like that too.

Daybrown: Dr. Freud noted that neurotics cant tolerate ambiguity, and therefore tend to jump to conclusions based on inadequate data. He also comments on the ingenuity applied to explain why one thinks as one does despite the presentation of contrary facts revealed later. Finally, if you do manage to dispel an illusion, the reaction is anger.

Epictetus commented on this, noting that when a man proved he was wrong, he was grateful to no longer be thinking wrongly. However, he added, that when he performs the same service for another, the man always goes away angry.
Interesting isn't it. Insecurity really gets in the way, doesn't it. Desperately trying to uphold the lie of an ego that is powerful and right is more important to most than truth and development. They've long ago given up truth for lies that cripple the mind.

Daybrown: Nowhere is this combination of group think and neurosis so obvious as with 911. The media, aware of the distress of the public, and for the sake of ratings, wanted to come out with explanations first, which they knew would settle the fear of the public. The government provided those explanations which fit within its own group think, which the media accepted without much intelligent, logical, examination.

Then, when other questions which were not at first considered were presented, or others arose as other bits of data came in, as these were posted the immediate and most common response was anger, typified by sarcasm and ad hominum to anyone daring to challenge the group think. Becoming 'informed' meant dealing with a much wider set of data than was presented in the aftermath, or even to the 911 commission.

A lot of people simply did not want to think about all that. It was too much, and exceeded their attention spans. That mass represented a powerful political force which some saw as useful in the pursuance of their own agendas, so they pandered to it, in part by being dismissive of any data that contradicted the original group think. A lot of intelligent people are already too busy with their lives and careers to have the time to be that well informed about an event with so many different theories and partisans promoting them.

For them, the way to "move on" was to park 911 in the past and let it go. There's been a good case that congress already had too much to deal with besides a more thorough investigation of what 911 was all about. For if 911 was not just Islamic terrorists, then it opened up to much ambiguity for the neurotic mass mind to deal with as to who all was involved.

But whatever, if we are now to be intelligent and informed, then its worth considering on where things will go from here. Knowing what we do about group think, all these questions about 911 will continue to simmer on the back burner as long as the global economy keeps on. That issue depends in large part on what the foreign holders of dollar denominated investments will make of further, and somewhat obscure, reports now being posted as those who were in a position in the US government and military retire, and thereby free themselves from the group think imposed by their career ambitions.
How about another example. How about the way group think relates to ignorance of the nature of reality. To this end i reproduce a section of "Wisdom of the Infinite" by David Quinn.


The Will to Unconsciousness

It is sometimes said to me, "It all sounds too simple and convenient for my liking. If cause and effect is the ultimate answer to everything, then why doesn't everybody subscribe to it? Why isn't it taught in schools? Why aren't the great thinkers preaching it? Why have I never heard about it before?"

These are good questions. I think it is mainly because people are afraid of it. Deep down, most people do have an inkling of the significance of cause and effect - it is hard not to since it pervades everything they do - but they are loathe to bring it more fully into their consciousness and investigate it seriously. They realise intuitively that a serious interest in cause and effect would almost invariably destroy life as they know it. It would undermine everything they enjoy and believe in. And so, on a subconscious level, they have set up large mental blocks to fortify their minds against it.

It is quite a fascinating phenomenon when you reflect upon it. After all, it must be obvious to anyone with an ounce of intelligence that cause and effect is fundamentally important to our understanding of the world. Not only must it necessarily form the kernel of any theory we care to create about the world, but it is visible in every aspect of our daily lives. It is the ultimate explanation of all things; it is the final fruition of wielding Ockham's razor to the fullest extent; it is the Theory of Everything boiled down to its purest essence. I mean, what a prize! Surely, you would think, such an obvious all-pervasive principle would present an exciting avenue of investigation for anyone even remotely interested in philosophy and spirituality. And yet it is universally ignored the world over. No one ever talks about it or thinks about it. This alone should set the alarm bells ringing. Something is seriously amiss here.

But then again, as I say, it is entirely understandable that people want to avoid all consciousness of cause and effect. Becoming conscious of cause and effect is dangerous. The more you absorb it into your being, the more it will dissolve the basis of your egotistical existence and undermine the egotistical values of love, family, happiness, community, religion, suffering and hate. It will fling you into the austere, starry realm of the Infinite - a realm from which most of humanity shrinks.

If a person recognized and accepted that everything which happens in the world is caused to happen, including his own thoughts and actions, then how could he continue to believe in his own free-will? How could he take pride in his achievements when he succeeds, or indulge in the pleasures of self-pity when he fails? How could he believe in the idea of gain and loss, and experience the ups and downs of normal emotional life which most people find so appealing? How could he take pleasure in what other people achieve, or experience the joys of anger and violence against those who seem to mistreat him? How could he indulge in any kind of life at all?

Thus, it should come as no surprise that most people intuitively regard the philosophic life as a kind of living death. Involving oneself with cause and effect literally pulls the rug from under everything that the human race finds meaningful. There is no longer any basis for getting involved in a relationship, or experiencing satisfaction from a successful career, or finding pleasure in the triumphs of sport and hobbies. Even to become involved in these things in the first place is to fall into the delusion that things really exist. The concept of cause and effect is like a virus that takes over the philosopher's mind, destroying all of his human values and rendering him unfeeling, sterile and inhuman.

So, in the end, this is the core reason why cause and effect is never discussed or thought about in the world today. Everyone wants to keep it hidden, out of mind and out of sight, so that nobody has to deal with it. Everyone adheres to the unspoken principle that the very basis for enjoying life needs to be preserved at all costs and the conventional mental shutters need to be vigilantly maintained. Even scientific and academic pursuit can be seen as a process of intelligent people doing everything they can to avoid exploring the obvious truth of causality. They are intelligent enough to understand the concept and discern its significance, but far too timid to deal with it directly. Like little children, they need to be constantly distracted, otherwise they might start to get upset.

It is at this point that we can finally begin to understand the spiritual concept of faith. The genuine faith of a spiritual man has nothing to do with blindly clinging to an unprovable belief, as the Christians would have it. On the contrary, it involves submitting to what you know to be ultimately true in life, even though such a submission effectively means the forfeiting of your life. As Soren Kierkegaard so eloquently expressed it, "To have faith is really to advance along the way where all the human road signs point: back, back, back."

Or as Jesus once put it: "Blessed is he who is not offended!"
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daybrown
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Re: Being intelligent and being informed

Post by daybrown »

You world may well be egzactly as you describe Rhett, with people as you see them. Mine is a bit different. It is basically just software running, and, as a matter of fact, could crash at anytime, ceasing to exist like when the power goes out on a projector.

It has the hymns to Kali by 18th century Saint Ramprasad, at the apex of the Vedic canon before the Brits took over, who summed them up by saying that everything you see is part of a "projected matrix" out of the mind of the Goddess. He adds there are a myriad such worlds.

So- yours could indeed be just as you say. Kali will craft whatever Dharma and Kharma you like. Perhaps you remember the "Holodeck" on the TV Star Trek voyager series, in which one deck of the starship generated a virtual reality for the purpose of R&R. And if you do, then you recall the dialogue with the ship's computer before entering the deck about what kind of character, or Avatar one wanted, and what the nature of that projected matrix would be. (I'll get back to this later)

Anyway, my virtual reality also includes "The Presence of the Past" by Sheldrake, going on about "morphic fields". It sounds like a whacky idea, but from a software standpoint, DNA does not actually have enuf code to produce a human being. And since he published part of an explanation has come out related to methyl tags on the rungs of the DNA spiral ladder that empower, or disempower, DNA to function. These tags are affected by the environment, both in utero, and after birth, but in any case most powerful during development.

So- IIRC, it was the Swedes who looked at those who suffered malnutrition during childhood. Which we can see affected the methyl tags, like molecular ticks on the DNA. Seems to have no effect on that generation's kids, but when you look at the grandsons, they live to a ripe old age, and the daughters tend to die young. But dig it. Its the same DNA.

Sheldrake mentions snowflakes. The funny thing about them is that they are all made up of the egzact same water molecules. Cant get much simpler than H20. That every snowflake is different is somewhat understandable, but why are they also hexagonally symmetric? Somehow, when a molecule attaches to a growing crystal, it knows where all the other molecules already crystallized are. Sheldrake this is because of a 'morphic field'.

He sees a field effect, just like the magnetic field of a magnet, only lines up in certain ways. Ramprasad sees the field too, the matrix. What neither know about is the way software works. The world you see is created in large part by fractle formulae which only allow certain forces at certain points, and bypass others.

You can iterate a fractle on this screen, keep zooming, and with every zoom you see the very same class of fractle be it a Julia or whatever. Like snowflakes, the *pattern* is consistent, zoom after zoom. But if you let the PC run and keep zooming, at some point you look at the screen, and the pattern is gone, no matter what kind you started out with, and its nothing but white noise. Snow.

Why? because you have exceeded the parameters of the virtual reality software you live on. It automatically resets. But now, if you let the PC keep working with the same algorithm, at some point when you come by to check, there it is again. The same Julia you started with. Not a perfect cause/effect copy, but there's no doubt it falls in the same class.

You cant make fractles without random input. which defies the laws of cause and effect. And, whenever you see the edge of a pattern, be it stock market prices, weather, or DNA development, you cannot know if that pattern continues beyond the edge of the displayed data, or if the edge falls on a nodal change with branching running out in unexpected directions. Even Identical twins are not, in fact, identical. One came out first.

So now, before you existed in your world, you had a conversation with Kali at a terminal such as we see at the Holdeck door, on the nature of the Dharma and Kharma you will be given. And in dreams from time to time, that same presentation of possible outcomes is presented.

Likewise, from time to time you see one of your choices become manifest. My world has a name for this phenomena:"De jevu". Or, as I'd rather call it, vujade, because its not someplace you were before and now see, but someplace you saw before- in a dream- and now find yourself. Kali manipulates the morphic fields to do this for you. Every atom is depicted egzactly where it was spozed to be, and then the fractle subroutines kick in, and carry the flow of events on in front of you.

The software has some bugs. Sometimes some familiar object, which you know should be there... isnt. And sometimes some form is suddenly present in your matrix, and you have no fucking clue as to how it got there. Being intelligent and informed does not matter, altho if you pay attention, you'll prolly notice this.

My virtual reality also has some compounds that if ingested make it into the bloodstream and brain, and affect the rate the CPU is running. Downers can slow it way down, even to the point of unconsciousness and death. Uppers speed it up, but if that's all they do, it just raises the excitement level. psychedelics speed up some parts of the mind more than others, and permit neural connections that are not ordinarily working.

The pattern recognition algorithms in the occipital lobes go into turbo, and present the prefrontal lobes with more input than usual. The rate the CPU runs seems to slow time by comparison. The adaptation of morphic fields to the flow of sensation falls behind, and one of the common effects of that is the sense of the presence of the Goddess and Her wireless communication system.

This is kinda like you've been engrossed in a movie, but now stop that, get up, turn around, and walk twards the source of the light. You can tell where the energy is coming from. You are apt to stumble around a lot in the dark and piss people off who only want to watch the movie. If you make it all the way back to look in the projection booth, you see it working, but nothing you have seen in the movie provides you with any nomenclature to describe to those you came to the movie with- what you just saw.

Besides, they mostly dont giva fuck and just want to watch the movie. You being intelligent and informed dont matter to them, only to you. If your mind is, as you say, slow and deep, you go back to watching the movie, but you also mull these things over, aware that you are also in the movie that you are watching. You still have Dharma, Kharma, and your own lines to fulfill the Kharma of others. But now, I cant get my panties in a wad over any of it.
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DHodges
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Re: Being intelligent and being informed

Post by DHodges »

daybrown wrote:You cant make fractles without random input. which defies the laws of cause and effect.
You have some basic misunderstandings about fractals. They do not involve "random input."

At least, not in my reality.
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Re: Being intelligent and being informed

Post by hsandman »

daybrown: Glad you took my advice(?)... Nice post. I have seen the projector room too... :-) You can see it when you see the space between two moments. I will elaborate on this more tommorow.

ps. Ufo is right about the fractals though. =DThe "new" image enhancement programs work on that principle. 1+1 = 2, 2+1 =3 =infinity loop. etc.

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Re: Being intelligent and being informed

Post by daybrown »

I spoze you could use a fixed set of numbers for A&B&C&D=F
but with computer iteration, the pattern emerges with random inputs, where for example, A is replaced by aX(some portion of A), or B with some combination another variable to some power, or C multiplied by a log, and D by a radial....

And when you zoom, it is either to multiply or divide all the internal variables by some factor. Pick some random number to mutliply with. Its still the same fractal. If you feed each of the individual elements random numbers and iterate on a computer, you end up with the same fractal.

What's fixed is the relationship each element has with all the others. One may be only integer, another only floating point, one logrithmic, one linear, some may be combinations of linear and log. But whatever, A+B+C*D gives you one fractal, but A*D+B+C another, and so on. Random numbers iterated with each of the elements by a computer will give you the same fractle.

When you zoom in, it is with ever smaller floating point, and when you zoom out, ever larger powers of the original range. You dont need random numbers to do this, but random numbers still work. Since I always worked with computers, it never occurred to me that someone would not use the simple random input rather than say, all the numbers within a given range.

z(n+1)=z(n2)+z(0) for instance works with all values of n, not just a linear, or integer series. If the values are too high or too low, the pixels wont appear on your screen. But zoom one way or the other, and you'll find it. [between the () is all powers]

There is something going on with this morphic field business, The virtual reality projection software works with reality pixels that are 10x-35(power) meters apart. So a fractal formula calculates when the hexagonal core of a snowflake has gotten large enuf to start adding arms.

Be interesting to try to make a snowflake in the lab to watch it happen, but if a molecule attaches to one side of the hexagon, then the next molecule hasta pick a different facet, but not pick either the upper or lower face. I wonder what the fractal formula to make a snowflake looks like. But anyway, how does a molecule know this unless there is some kind of morphic field effect, driven by command from the reality projector?
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DHodges
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Re: Being intelligent and being informed

Post by DHodges »

daybrown wrote:Be interesting to try to make a snowflake in the lab to watch it happen, but if a molecule attaches to one side of the hexagon, then the next molecule hasta pick a different facet, but not pick either the upper or lower face.
Snowflakes are not perfectly symmetric.
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Re: Being intelligent and being informed

Post by Pincho Paxton »

daybrown wrote:I spoze you could use a fixed set of numbers for A&B&C&D=F
but with computer iteration, the pattern emerges with random inputs, where for example, A is replaced by aX(some portion of A), or B with some combination another variable to some power, or C multiplied by a log, and D by a radial....

And when you zoom, it is either to multiply or divide all the internal variables by some factor. Pick some random number to mutliply with. Its still the same fractal. If you feed each of the individual elements random numbers and iterate on a computer, you end up with the same fractal.

What's fixed is the relationship each element has with all the others. One may be only integer, another only floating point, one logrithmic, one linear, some may be combinations of linear and log. But whatever, A+B+C*D gives you one fractal, but A*D+B+C another, and so on. Random numbers iterated with each of the elements by a computer will give you the same fractle.

When you zoom in, it is with ever smaller floating point, and when you zoom out, ever larger powers of the original range. You dont need random numbers to do this, but random numbers still work. Since I always worked with computers, it never occurred to me that someone would not use the simple random input rather than say, all the numbers within a given range.

z(n+1)=z(n2)+z(0) for instance works with all values of n, not just a linear, or integer series. If the values are too high or too low, the pixels wont appear on your screen. But zoom one way or the other, and you'll find it. [between the () is all powers]

There is something going on with this morphic field business, The virtual reality projection software works with reality pixels that are 10x-35(power) meters apart. So a fractal formula calculates when the hexagonal core of a snowflake has gotten large enuf to start adding arms.

Be interesting to try to make a snowflake in the lab to watch it happen, but if a molecule attaches to one side of the hexagon, then the next molecule hasta pick a different facet, but not pick either the upper or lower face. I wonder what the fractal formula to make a snowflake looks like. But anyway, how does a molecule know this unless there is some kind of morphic field effect, driven by command from the reality projector?
The randomness used in Fractals is called a seed. This seed is used to build a mathematical structure. The math's has rules that are only portionally random. Meaning really that fractals are not random.

Snowflakes have pysical rules applied, but nobody knows for sure what all of the rules are. So there are areas where you are free to speculate. Snowflakes are a half written book, with pages to fill in, and I think, a couple of mistakes to correct.
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Re: Being intelligent and being informed

Post by hsandman »

DHodges wrote:
daybrown wrote:Be interesting to try to make a snowflake in the lab to watch it happen, but if a molecule attaches to one side of the hexagon, then the next molecule hasta pick a different facet, but not pick either the upper or lower face.
Snowflakes are not perfectly symmetric.

Only 0 is perfect. (?) ie. nothing.

Edit: Hmm, this reminds me something I saw on tv(lol) about this artist who displayed snowflakes . (Wilson Bentley)

Snow flake would be a fractal just like fern is a fractal. Trees, clauds, people etc.

0
1
2
3
5
8
13

ie. golden ratioin a triangle.

"Most fractals are generating by taking a set of inputs and applying them as inputs to some sort of equation." <- The randomness factor the daybrown and pincho is talking about i guess. The inputs can be random.

So... laws of physics (ie. unified theory) are the "Seed"?

Pincho:
Pincho Paxton wrote:
The randomness used in Fractals is called a seed. This seed is used to build a mathematical structure. The math's has rules that are only portionally random. Meaning really that fractals are not random.

Snowflakes have pysical rules applied, but nobody knows for sure what all of the rules are. So there are areas where you are free to speculate. Snowflakes are a half written book, with pages to fill in, and I think, a couple of mistakes to correct.
The math's has rules that are only portionally random.---------------------> Meaning really that fractals are not random.
Mathematics have rules that are portionally/partialy. random? (*not sure what you ment by that pincho*) Elaborate pls?
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Re: Being intelligent and being informed

Post by Pincho Paxton »

It's like an icecream, you can have the random seed.. Chocolate,vanilla,strawberry,mint. But the ice, and the cream were already mixed together ready for the random seed to be mixed with them. So the math's for a fractual is already written, but you can add some random numbers to the beginning that changes their shape. In a snowflake, the random seed is the temperature, and the supersaturation.

I see a snowflake like a sandcastle. You apply too much water to a sancastle, and it slides apart. You dont put enough water, and it crumbles apart. You get everything right, and you have a perfectly formed sandcastle. To me.. a snowflake is filling a mould. My mould is what I call the sentience machine, but is better known as the aether.
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Re: Being intelligent and being informed

Post by daybrown »

If Fractals did not involve random numbers, then every time you make one, the first image would be like all others. But its the boundedness of randomness that creates the uniformity, as well as the diversity. You need some fixed elements, that is the ratios or relationships among them, but without random input, all snowflakes or whatever would be identical.

I've seen laminar flow study done with a candle flame in a glass tube. They were trying to see how far they could extend the laminar flow of the smoke before it becomes turbulent. Its not very far no matter how uniform the initial air conditions that fed the flame are, and they can never tell at just what point laminar flow becomes turbulent.

They also tried to build a very precise faucet for the bottom of a huge vat to time the drips. No matter what they did, the drips could not be made uniform over time. There is way too much chaos. Too much in fact, to satisfy the needs of an onminpotent god. Maybe there is such a universe, but it aint the one I see.

However, if all the Christians moved to it, the rest of us would be grateful.
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Re: Being intelligent and being informed

Post by Pincho Paxton »

If Fractals did not involve random numbers, then every time you make one, the first image would be like all others. But its the boundedness of randomness that creates the uniformity, as well as the diversity. You need some fixed elements, that is the ratios or relationships among them, but without random input, all snowflakes or whatever would be identical.
I already covered this, apart from I forgot to mention the airflow which creates a lot of the randomness that you see.
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Re: Being intelligent and being informed

Post by slumsquirrel »

I haven't read all the replies but I want to say EXACTLY (concerning the topic). Its about what you can do with what you know.
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