GENIUS FORUMS

So heres a pointer:

what awakens?


Its not the mind and its intellect, nor is it the body and its behavior.

Alex, who is hades?

Hades, the purpose of this is, what exactly?

Because boy if you are enlightened you had better either start speaking up about it, or get lost.

How can anyone be closer to enlightenment if it is something that cannot be attained or acquired? Have you now abandoned that position, Hades?

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How can anyone be closer to enlightenment if it is something that cannot be attained or acquired?

I think that question (or koan) is Hades' whole point. Who or what awakens?

Unidian wrote:

How can anyone be closer to enlightenment if it is something that cannot be attained or acquired?

I think that question (or koan) is Hades' whole point. Who or what awakens?

=]

hades wrote:So heres a pointer:

what awakens?


Its not the mind and its intellect, nor is it the body and its behavior.

Nah, just more fake Zen.

One could as well ask: what is that what is asleep? Where lies the ignorance? Of course it has to do with mind, intellect, body as well the interacting behavior. What else: mystery?

This is all just an attempt to muddy shallow waters and then proclaiming depth: "Look guys, you can't see the bottom, it must be sooo deep".

You know, this is really easy. Let me try: "Where's the progress? And to where is one progressing?"

You see, it goes on endless this way but is only an excuse to stop questioning the validity of ones own position.

Barricading.

hades wrote:So heres a pointer:

Translation: I am enlightened.

what awakens?

Translation: So, here's a trick question.

Its not the mind and its intellect, nor is it the body and its behavior.

Translation: There are several possible true answers, depending on context, so, whichever you say, I can say, "wrong," and be right.

Hades, you seem fed up with us, and so you design blunt statements to shock. But it is not at all clear that you are as advanced as you purport to be. I can only speculate regarding your motives, then.

Maybe you are frustrated with your own slow progress and so you denounce "doing." Perhaps you are trying to spur yourself to greater effort (towards truth) by being outrageous and reaping a backlash. In which case, go for it; self pep talks are good, and the reactions of others can serve well. As long as one is open to accept them.

On another thread:

hades wrote:I don't know why people keep asking me questions though...I hate it.

Yet, hades posts this thread after posting this and after Dan pointing out that if opinions are posted, one should expect questions.

Hades also stated that he was here to learn, and Dan pointed out that learning is assisted when people challenge a person to think.

I think David's question was a very valid one, allowing for people to grow. Despite hades' string of glib responses on the last thread, he posts this thread. It could be to prove that anyone can post a variant of the standard zennish stuff, or it could be that he is ready to make some progress. The question is valid, and time and answers will tell.

Carl G wrote:Hades, you seem fed up with us, and so you design blunt statements to shock. But it is not at all clear that you are as advanced as you purport to be. I can only speculate regarding your motives, then.

I agree, for now all we can do is speculate. An honest answer to the question David asked would help, though.

david wrote:How can anyone be closer to enlightenment if it is something that cannot be attained or acquired?

Hey, I'm the one asking Koans around here!

:)

Have you now abandoned that position, Hades?

I only have one position, and it can not be abandoned or acquired.

hades wrote:I only have one position, and it can not be abandoned or acquired.

But a position can be caused. What is your current position?

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:

hades wrote:I only have one position, and it can not be abandoned or acquired.

But a position can be caused. What is your current position?

Neither caused nor uncaused.

It is that which awakens to itself.


You can question my motivations all day, you can say my nails are dirty, or you can see what I'm pointing to.

An infant can point to the moon, and we say "Yes, that's the moon."

Hades wrote:

I only have one position, and it can not be abandoned or acquired.

And yet you have abandoned it.

In other threads, your one position was, "Enlightenment cannot be attained by mental effort." But in this thread, you have abandoned it.

Being inconsistent, lacking integrity and being a smart-arse doesn't equate to being Zennish.

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David Quinn wrote:Hades wrote:

I only have one position, and it can not be abandoned or acquired.

And yet you have abandoned it.

In other threads, your one position was, "Enlightenment cannot be attained by mental effort." But in this thread, you have abandoned it.

-

The position I refer to is not dependent on a [subject] acquiring [beliefs], [concepts], or [subscribing to various statements].

It is prior to that rubbish.

Being inconsistent, lacking integrity and being a smart-arse doesn't equate to being Zennish.

You want integrity? Go make up a religion and follow it, then call that integrity.

Those who don't want anything in particular, see what I point to instantly with no effort.

:)

hades wrote:

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:

hades wrote:I only have one position, and it can not be abandoned or acquired.

But a position can be caused. What is your current position?

Neither caused nor uncaused.

It is that which awakens to itself.

The position you point to is the Totality. You are not the Totality. You are only a piece of It.

Hades wrote:

The position I refer to is not dependent on a [subject] acquiring [beliefs], [concepts], or [subscribing to various statements].

That was not what you were saying on those other threads. You were asserting something far more extreme - namely, that it cannot be attained by any mental effort at all.

For example:

- Enlightenment is not the fruit of anything, practice, mental or physical.

- Enlightenment isn't born, created, realized, or produced..or grasped, or believed in. It doesn't require your understanding.

- Enlightenment has always been unconditional, and thus requires nothing from anyone, including "understanding".

- As I've said before, enlightenment does not come through practice, meditation, information, understanding concepts, adopting belief systems, or having mystical experiences....it is
Unconditional.

- Its not something the accumulation of wisdom produces, nor the fruit of careful meditation or rational thinking....

All these sayings are at odds with the creation of this thread.

The position I refer to is not dependent on a [subject] acquiring [beliefs], [concepts], or [subscribing to various statements].

It is prior to that rubbish.

And yet here you are subscribing to the belief that Enlightenment is unconditional and cannot be attained by mental effort.

Or at least you were until the creation of this thread. Now you are subscribing to the belief that it can indeed be attained via the solving of a koan.

DQ: Being inconsistent, lacking integrity and being a smart-arse doesn't equate to being Zennish.

H: You want integrity? Go make up a religion and follow it, then call that integrity.

No, having integrity means being sincere and authentic in your thinking. It means taking the time to properly think out your position and being consistent with it. It doesn't mean chopping and changing whenever it suits your urge to be a smart-arse.

Those who don't want anything in particular, see what I point to instantly with no effort.

In other threads, you said that it was impossible to point at it. Now it seems you have changed your mind on that as well.

:)

Even your smiles are insincere.

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David Quinn wrote:
That was not what you were saying on those other threads. You were asserting something far more extreme - namely, that it cannot be attained by any mental effort at all.

This is true.
I mean, it is the same in both cases, no mind becomes Enlightened after acquiring information of any sort. It is not something attained by mental gymnastics or physical gymnastics.

Or at least you were until the creation of this thread. Now you are subscribing to the belief that it can indeed be attained via the solving of a koan.

This is your own inference, the result of a fertile imagination.

No, having integrity means being sincere and authentic in your thinking. It means taking the time to properly think out your position and being consistent with it. It doesn't mean chopping and changing whenever it suits your urge to be a smart-arse.

Who does the thinking belong to?

Those who don't want anything in particular, see what I point to instantly with no effort.

DQ: In other threads, you said that it was impossible to point at it. Now it seems you have changed your mind on that as well.

It IS impossible to point to it. Thats the point.

:)
Even your smiles are insincere.

:)

Hades wrote:

I mean, it is the same in both cases, no mind becomes Enlightened after acquiring information of any sort. It is not something attained by mental gymnastics or physical gymnastics.

So why did you start this thread and give those who are "close to enlightenment" a koan to meditate on?

DQ: Or at least you were until the creation of this thread. Now you are subscribing to the belief that it can indeed be attained via the solving of a koan.

H: This is your own inference, the result of a fertile imagination.

I am merely imagining this thread?

DQ: In other threads, you said that it was impossible to point at it. Now it seems you have changed your mind on that as well.

H: It IS impossible to point to it.

Then why did you say above: Those who don't want anything in particular, see what I point to instantly with no effort.

DQ: No, having integrity means being sincere and authentic in your thinking. It means taking the time to properly think out your position and being consistent with it. It doesn't mean chopping and changing whenever it suits your urge to be a smart-arse.

H: Who does the thinking belong to?

You're pointing again.

The insincere and inauthentic thinking is coming straight from your brain. Instead of palming it off all the time, you need to own up to this reality and deal with it.

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David Quinn wrote: So why did you start this thread and give those who are "close to enlightenment" a koan to meditate on?

Because the conditions were just right.

I am merely imagining this thread?

Yes.
As you imagine the various inferences you draw from my words.

Then why did you say above: Those who don't want anything in particular, see what I point to instantly with no effort.


You're pointing again.

The insincere and inauthentic thinking is coming straight from your brain. Instead of palming it off all the time, you need to own up to this reality and deal with it.

-

Who's brain?
Who's mind, who's body?
Who awakens?

I try to point to the unpointable, and think the unthinkable so that some may see the futility in the idea of 'attaining' Enlightenment. If they don't see this, it is fine.
If they do see it, this is also fine.

Up to them.

"Them"? What "them"?

Dan Rowden wrote:"Them"? What "them"?

Up to you

Me? What me?

Dan Rowden wrote:Me? What me?

or Who am I?
Who awakens?

Good question

Acually I was taking the piss, but nevermind......