GENIUS FORUMS

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An interesting take on the lotus threads is that they're not the hard-to-cut-through fibres in the stalk, or the leaves, as Hakuin suggests, but the extremely thin, strong fibres in the lotus pods. After slow-cooking the pods in soup for several hours, and taking a piece off, very fine spiderwebs are drawn out like mozzarella cheese - extremely fine and stretching a long way, and surprisingly tough. Perhaps Rinzai meant them.


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Some pictures are here (around half way). No cooking is mentioned?

The picture tells me a slightly different story: the fibers symbolize the 'fabric' of things, a bit like the modern concept of string-based universe. The Titans can hide seamlessly there because they do not exist outside the fabric of things and causality. The Gods were unable to attack because there was nothing to attack. It's at this moment a subtle confusion of thinking is abandoned. Added to this one could see the strings as tying together duality, the two pieces of the broken lotus root, hinting at the non-dual nature of the issue.

Hakuin interprets Rinzai here a bit differently for his own ends I suppose. Also, the translation of the reply "mu" as "no" in the koan "Does a dog have Buddha-nature?" is somewhat of a castration of the original intent to include in its meaning: "without", "no-thing" or "no-existent". The reply was targeting the notions of "having" and hinting at what Buddha-nature is, and not saying much about the state of a dog, or any other living thing.

To me, contemplation of the holes in the lotus stalks is the means by which one can touch/realize, within the spirit body [lotus] of themselves, the invisible cause of all effects seen, heard, touched, tasted and smelled.

This touching and being touched of one's invisible cause, of the moment of the touching, removes all thoughts of flesh and of human relativity of thought comparison. Such is the journey of one's effect awareness being consumed of one's invisible cause awareness. To live of this touch, without ceasing, is the goal of the spirit-awakened one.

Well, that's an interesting take, movingalways, but it wouldn't explain why the asuras (warring gods/titans, a psychological realm displayed by great tricksy cunning and boldness) were hiding there, and why the king of gods (a higher realm, but not the highest) were unable to defeat them.

Here's the text Hakuin was referring to (Teachings of Rinzai, Part 1, 18):

You say the Buddha has the six supernatural powers and that they are miraculous. But all the Devas, Immortals, Asuras, and the Great Demons have supernatural powers. Should they be Buddha? Followers of the Way, do not be deceived. The Asura, beaten in his war against the Deva king Shakra, made his troops of 84,000 hide in the hollow stem of a lotus. But that does not constitute holiness.

Diebert, you seem to be spot on about the holes being in the lotus stalk/root, and the threads being the fibres of that stalk. But I think it might be wrong to interpret the titan's hiding in the lotus thread holes (the dualistically empty spaces in thoughts of merit that lead to the lotus) as the moment where confusion of thinking is abandoned. Rinzai meant that was their cunning, a kind of power they had, and which confused even the king of gods.

I reckon Hakuin's take is right, there. Rinzai goes on to say:

As I see it, all those supernatural powers are karmic and
dependent. They are not the six supernatural powers the Buddha
possessed: entering the realm of forms without being deluded by
forms; entering the realm of hearing without being deluded by
sounds; of smelling without being deluded by smells; of taste
without being deluded by tastes; of touch without being deluded by
touch; and of mental configurations without being deluded by
mental configurations.


I interpret the mu koan to mean, being wary of pointing to anything as the Buddha. Not even to grasp to "emptiness" (the empty threads).


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Kelly Jones wrote:I reckon Hakuin's take is right, there. Rinzai goes on to say:

As I see it, all those supernatural powers are karmic and
dependent. They are not the six supernatural powers the Buddha
possessed.

I didn't mean to say the moment of hiding is when any confusion on the matter ceases.

What I said was that the 'Titans' and their powers (they are their powers) do not exist outside the fabric of things and causality. They are one with that fabric. This is the same as you quote Rinzai as explaining: "all those supernatural powers are karmic and dependent". This means they rise and fall with the movements of the fabric of space and time. Holiness or "Buddha's power" cannot be dependent on these circumstances, so the battle couldn't be "won"; "holiness" is not achievable that way.

The subtle confusion mentioned is to think one has conquered delusion or "removed" it, but it's only from sight. But it's not a victory when such victory is still karmic and dependent on circumstance. The Deva king Shakra (Śakra) is the focus of consciousness and it should be clear it cannot destroy its very own objects, including any delusion, in any permanent or independent manner.

Kelly Jones: Well, that's an interesting take, movingalways, but it wouldn't explain why the asuras (warring gods/titans, a psychological realm displayed by great tricksy cunning and boldness) were hiding there, and why the king of gods (a higher realm, but not the highest) were unable to defeat them.

But it does, Kelly, for the highest realm, which is that of being the Invisible Observer of all realms, including the realm of gods and of king of gods, is the realm of pure awareness beyond every idea of self. The Buddha taught that every thought of self is a karmic seed that produces infinite seeds or worlds of karmic thought, and the way to total enlightenment is to plant no thought of self, or karmic seed:

From the diamond sutra, chapter six:

""Subhuti, any person who awakens faith upon hearing the words or phrases of this Sutra will accumulate countless blessings and merit. How do I know this? Because this person must have discarded all arbitrary notions of the existence of a personal self, of other people, or of a universal self. Otherwise their minds would still grasp after such relative conceptions. Furthermore, these people must have already discarded all arbitrary notions of the non-existence of a personal self, other people, or a universal self. Otherwise, their minds would still be grasping at such notions. Therefore anyone who seeks total Enlightenment should discard not only all conceptions of their own selfhood, of other selves, or of a universal self, but they should also discard all notions of the non-existence of such concepts."

Therefore, all relative conceptions are to be discarded, according to the Buddha. Asura, deva, king, immortals, Great Demons, gods: all relative concepts of one concept of belief in dualism: 'self.' In relating the vision you presented of the lotus plant to that of Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 of the bible, the asuras or gods are the generations of Adam/Eve [individual or separate self], the king of gods is the Lord God [concept of self or separation]; God Himself or the Father is the invisible cause of the appearance of both the Lord God [king of gods] and of Adam/Eve [gods]. Christ is the principle or activity which reconciles Eve to Adam, then Adam/Eve to the Lord God, and then, the Lord God to the Father.

Kelly Jones:
Here's the text Hakuin was referring to (Teachings of Rinzai, Part 1, 18):

You say the Buddha has the six supernatural powers and that they are miraculous. But all the Devas, Immortals, Asuras, and the Great Demons have supernatural powers. Should they be Buddha? Followers of the Way, do not be deceived. The Asura, beaten in his war against the Deva king Shakra, made his troops of 84,000 hide in the hollow stem of a lotus. But that does not constitute holiness.

The above text does relate to my explanation of:

movingalways: To me, contemplation of the holes in the lotus stalks is the means by which one can touch/realize, within the spirit body [lotus] of themselves, the invisible cause of all effects seen, heard, touched, tasted and smelled.

Making your troops [thoughts of self] hide in the hollow stem of a lotus does not constitute holiness, [being the Buddha or the Christ] because any hiding of yourself in your thoughts of self is not to bring yourself to the light of your pure awareness, or extinguished [invisible] self [nirvana means 'extinguished]. To hide in the hollow is to remain veiled to one's light of being the light all things, all realms, all gods, all not-gods, every thought that can be thought, and then, not-thought. Jesus spoke this wisdom many times, some examples: "I am the light of the world," "I and the Father are One," "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father."

So the way to defeat the asuras of oneself, and the king of the gods of oneself is to be consciously aware [awake] that they are but phenomena of one's own self-arising and to be consciously awake [aware] to not 'hiding them in the hollow of the lotus stalk.' To bring them always to the light of pure awareness, of holiness [wholeness of I am] so they can be defeated/consumed. Relating this wisdom to my original response:

This touching and being touched of one's invisible cause, of the moment of the touching, removes all thoughts of flesh and of human relativity of thought comparison [gods, king of gods]. Such is the journey of one's effect awareness [all thoughts of self] being consumed [extinguished, defeated] of one's invisible cause [Invisible Observer] awareness. To live of this touch, without ceasing, is the goal of the spirit-awakened one [the accomplishment of defeat of every and all self-thoughts].

To extend this to the discussion of man vs. woman, of whatever realm of effects of self one is using as their subjective-objective expression of 'man' or of 'woman', be it of the physical realm or be it of the mental realm, before one can attain the realm of being one's Observer/Defeater of all realms, the story of man vs. woman [gods, king of gods] must be defeated or extinguished.

movingalways wrote:

The diamond sutra wrote:Therefore anyone who seeks total Enlightenment should discard not only all conceptions of their own selfhood, of other selves, or of a universal self, but they should also discard all notions of the non-existence of such concepts.

Therefore, all relative conceptions are to be discarded, according to the Buddha

This statement is ripe for misunderstanding, or it stems from misunderstanding.

All conceptions are relative. But there's according to the Buddha still "right conception" (on the eightfold path: right view) which applies to everything that needs to be conceived.

There's no phenomena to defeat or consume. They would flee in the lotus stalk and no way to defeat them since even the "god of gods" is not separate from the lotus. And the lotus is not separated from the rest.

There's no "invisible cause" or "invisible Observer awareness" or any defeating of stories. Those are shallow victories which also have to be transcended as they rest on an ultimate delusion of still being separate from any story or delusion. If anything needs to be extinguished it's movingalways her story about Observers, Silences and Indivisible Causes. They are just more great demons pretending holiness and celebrating hollow defeats over delusion.

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:

Kelly Jones wrote:I reckon Hakuin's take is right, there. Rinzai goes on to say:

As I see it, all those supernatural powers are karmic and
dependent. They are not the six supernatural powers the Buddha
possessed.

I didn't mean to say the moment of hiding is when any confusion on the matter ceases.

Okay. I obviously misinterpreted what you meant by "The Gods were unable to attack because there was nothing to attack. It's at this moment a subtle confusion of thinking is abandoned."

What I said was that the 'Titans' and their powers (they are their powers) do not exist outside the fabric of things and causality. They are one with that fabric. This is the same as you quote Rinzai as explaining: "all those supernatural powers are karmic and dependent".

Hmmm. I don't know about this. I'm able to think of the fabric of things and causality without confusing myself. I think karma comes from being confused about the true nature of things, not from the experience of things. The formless realms aren't an experience free of things, but recognition of their true nature. God is in things.


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movingalways wrote:

The diamond sutra wrote:Therefore anyone who seeks total Enlightenment should discard not only all conceptions of their own selfhood, of other selves, or of a universal self, but they should also discard all notions of the non-existence of such concepts.

Therefore, all relative conceptions are to be discarded, according to the Buddha

That's a totally wrong interpretation, movingalways. The Diamond Sutra means the relativity of all things shows their lack of inherent existence. It's a poetic turn of phrase.

If you think you have to discard concepts (since selves are just concepts, and all concepts are relative, as Diebert rightly says), then you must believe that Ultimate Reality is not already ever present in all concepts.

By trying to discard any concepts at all, all you are doing is swishing some water around. It flows around your splashing, and nothing has changed. Their real nature, which has always been, and will ever be, won't change. It's timeless. All things are Ultimate Reality. All you need to do is see what is there, the deeper reality of the interactivity and interdependency of all things.


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Human beings are self righteous creatures, and if this were not so, neither Gautama or Jesus would have spoken of holiness and of righteousness. The human intellect of good and evil relativity is neither holy or righteous. It taints everything it touches with its lie of dualism and of its bias toward form. To suggest that life or God or the Tao thinks as the human mind thinks is the height of ignorance and arrogance.

As for your claim that I have misinterpreted The Diamond Sutra, that is your interpretation; fair enough. There is no point in pulling up any more scriptures, for I can see that your indoctrination to the superiority of the human intellect of form projection/analysis over that of the consciousness of life's infinite expressions that do not project/analyze, runs deep indeed. You are making God or Life in your own image of human intellectual dualistic logic, which, in principle, is no different than the preachers who make God or Life in their own image of a dual personality of God and of the devil, of a real heaven and a real hell.

Kelly Jones wrote: I obviously misinterpreted what you meant by "The Gods were unable to attack because there was nothing to attack. It's at this moment a subtle confusion of thinking is abandoned."

The battle can be over because one thinks the enemy has been destroyed while it's not the case, or the battle can be over because one is realizing ones own tail is being chased around. It's rather appropiate to misinterpret my poorly stated difference between the two meanings because this seems to be exactly the essence of the parable: misinterpretation of the disappearance of the "demons of delusion".

I'm able to think of the fabric of things and causality without confusing myself.

Would you say then that you possess Buddha-nature?

movingalways, you're using concepts, and dualities, as well. All the time. Didn't you notice?

the consciousness of life's infinite expressions that do not project/analyze

Demonstrating that, were you? Okay.


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Diebert van Rhijn wrote:Kelly: I obviously misinterpreted what you meant by "The Gods were unable to attack because there was nothing to attack. It's at this moment a subtle confusion of thinking is abandoned."

Diebert: The battle can be over because one thinks the enemy has been destroyed while it's not the case, or the battle can be over because one is realizing ones own tail is being chased around. It's rather appropiate to misinterpret my poorly stated difference between the two meanings because this seems to be exactly the essence of the parable: misinterpretation of the disappearance of the "demons of delusion".

Okay then. I figured "a subtle confusion of thinking is abandoned" meant the battle was truly over, rather than passed onto the superior, supreme warrior. Thanks for clarifying.

Kelly: I'm able to think of the fabric of things and causality without confusing myself.

Diebert: Would you say then that you possess Buddha-nature?

I am Buddha-nature, in essence, but I don't always know myself (God). Often I'm like an ocean getting too focussed on my waves and seaside showers, rather than the deeper reality.


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