GENIUS FORUMS

Pye,

Actually Sapius, the words "enlightened" and "fully" really did not matter to me as much in Leyla's sentence as the experience itself that she describes.

I know, hence I did not talk much about that.

In other words, it is not something I experience conceptually, anyway, but actually and phenomenally.

Exactly! Of course you do. I can understand. Concepts are concepts, that are simply logically understood, but when they turn into a Realization of "Truth" because you realize the depth of meaning so deeply, they make so much sense, they become Reality for one. They actually make so much sense to one, that one can experience it phenomenally. However, they are just that.

On clearer days :)

Now imagine that one has, a "clear day" every day that he wakes up, for what existence actually means to him always means what it means without the False-ego perspective actually entering the mind, and he operates from an Ego point of view only, making every decision from that perspective rather than from a False-ego point of view. It literally becomes a habit, and within that he has his own much more clearer days, since he still remains as a flux.

Any ways, not an easy task to describe, since you could never ever describe the taste of an apple if I have never eaten one, so that I may know, nor could I.

:)

Exactly! Of course you do. I can understand. Concepts are concepts, that are simply logically understood, but when they turn into a Realization of "Truth" because you realize the depth of meaning so deeply, they make so much sense, they become Reality for one. They actually make so much sense to one, that one can experience it phenomenally. However, they are just that.

sapius,this is common sense.
now your talking.

leyla:

And, frank:

Alter-is? That’s straight out of the Scientology Axioms. I could have sworn I saw Dianetics or Scientology processing in one of your previous posts, too.

I am interested, have you read any of L Ron Hubbard’s works; if so, which ones? If not, what kind of therapist training have you had?

That feels like an attack coming on...it feels disrespectful...derisive.
Thanks but no thanks leyla.

frank

Wow. Here I go again. "Feels" like a self-fulfilling prophecy, to me. So, firstly, I suggest you clean out your ringing ears.

Secondly, if your reaction does not highlight the difference between thinking and feeling (as well as the problems with “feeling” particularly), I don’t know what does.

What do you have to fear? I cannot hurt your beliefs, frank. I cannot even hurt you. Are your thoughts so fragile that your whole world would come tumbling down so easily?

Can I hurt the truth?

It was a genuine and legitimate line of enquiry -- especially on a philosophy forum.

Incidentally, an excellent friend of mine for over 20 years is a Scientologist. I don’t see much of her, especially as she lives in another state, but whenever I do it is always as if no time has passed between then and the last.

In light of your response, it would not surprise me in the least to find that you are a “Scientologist.” But not of the calibre that my friend is. She would never be found posting to a forum such as this.

I see doubt in you. Casting and compartmentalising blame for it in my quarters will not resolve it.

A mere case of Alter-is, frank?

.

I guessed right.
You were setting me up for a fall.
Agreed?

frank

Bert,

sapius,this is common sense.
now your talking.

May be for you and me, but actually I have found Common sense to be quite a rare commodity around. I don’t know why they call it “common” in the first place. In my opinion, to understand things like such, one needs a rare sense rather than common.

But then again, one should not take that to be a Great Sense, for that too is necessarily a caused condition, no great credit to an individual self as such, hence pride should not step in. As in saying ‘Hey! You don’t know what I’m talking about” Or “You don’t know what You are talking about”. Because each builds his own circle of common sense, according to his own pre-understood and accepted realizations. The more the realizations match, the more it could be considered as common.

Just as one builds his own circle of morality, justifying the extant of his actions as good or bad to Himself, accordingly. All may belong to the same faith, but each draws his own circle of morality. None moral standards actually are that common when seen from how a mind works internally. Human mind lies to its self, to keep a False-ego alive, for that is quite pleasing and self-satisfying.

If people realized this for what it is, and spoke truth to themselves, this world would surely be a better place, but how common is that common sense? Which I indeed see as common sense, but yet, it seems to be quite rare. So what should I actually call my sense? :D

Diebert

The problem which I'm sure you're encountering when discussing this with people is how people somehow think that thought is a whole different world than feeling. Or sense ('direct') perception is somehow different than complex abstraction.

You are quite right, and all I tried to do is show how it isn’t.

This is caused by the immensely rare detachment that is needed from our core mental constructing to see there is no exception to the construct.

Shouldn’t it become ‘common sense’ once understood? To me it does.

There is only a difference in quality, a difference in how far the construct knows itself, and not what is outside the construct.

Quite right, but I think that Thinking in terms of ‘quality’ creates values, further strengthening a false-ego, in my opinion.

However, you have indeed deduced it correctly. I agree.

(But I really don’t have any “problem” as such. It only seems to you, correctly I might add, because you are not aware that I actually, knowingly, engage in such a conversation. I don’t consider just the two parties involved in a conversation at an open forum, but others as well, someone like you, and also unlike you.)

Leyla,

No need to frown, Sapius! Just enjoy!

Ok :)

Please understand, this is why I say stop psycho analyzing others personality, you are not good at it, nor am I for that matter, because one can guess another’s personality only to a certain extant from written words, unless a writer is really a very expressive one. How may times have you not heard, or even said it yourself, ‘Hey! You don’t actually understand what I’m saying”?

You got the idea that I’m frowning because you saw the an emoticon :( at the end of my post, but as far as I know, that stands for a sad “face”, as in, “I’m disappointed”, that’s what that actually meant. I don’t even know how to make a frowning face from a keyboard, let alone have one myself.

Now please read the same post in that light, and then analyze me again, if you really want to, BUT…

One of the reasons, that I have expressed earlier too, (may be you are not aware) that there is nothing like a face to face discussion, irrelevant of it’s own shortcomings, because facial expressions and body gestures give a different meaning to the same words spoken in a different tones, and it’s difficult to guess the tone in a written sentence, unless you have actually grasped the character of a person. Which of course, if is all dependant on previous written words, and you have created a picture of his character, than the tone will also sound according to the character picture you have drawn earlier.

One cannot judge a character having been open to only certain senses, say through visual sense through words and then you fill up the rest according to your thinking. In my opinion, only all senses when working together, give a more truer picture.

:) Now that is a smile, which means I consider you to be a thoughtful person, and I’m glad to have known you.

Sapius wrote:Bert,

sapius,this is common sense.
now your talking.

May be for you and me, but actually I have found Common sense to be quite a rare commodity around. I don’t know why they call it “common” in the first place. In my opinion, to understand things like such, one needs a rare sense rather than common.

in my native language we say "gezond verstand",which translated says more like "healthy sense".

But then again, one should not take that to be a Great Sense, for that too is necessarily a caused condition, no great credit to an individual self as such, hence pride should not step in. As in saying ‘Hey! You don’t know what I’m talking about” Or “You don’t know what You are talking about”. Because each builds his own circle of common sense, according to his own pre-understood and accepted realizations. The more the realizations match, the more it could be considered as common.

the use of common sense is as an explanatory device that cannot lie.so,when you take your stand in common sense you include the truth which cannot lie;no argument has yet prevailed.

frank,

I guessed right.
You were setting me up for a fall.
Agreed?

Oh, I get it. The foundations of your house were not built to withstand a storm, so -- since you are not a confident engineer -- the only answer is to blame the storm for “setting” your house “up for fall.” You are not prepared to consider the nature of the storm and its strength or direction, only the consequences of it lashing out at your home‘s (according to you, obviously) feeble foundations.

So now I shall ask you about the nature of the storm. What makes me so powerful and you so vulnerable that you would rather flee your house than weather an anticipated storm?

Why would I agree when I have already disagreed?

Do I really have to treat your mind with kid gloves?

Yesterday, I went up to my sister’s place. 17.5 acres of prime Aussie bushland. Surrounded by nothing but really old gum trees through open windows, the peacock was the last thing I saw before I shut my eyes. I lay spread out on the floorboards -- just like when you’re about to make one of those snow angels in the heavy, chilling fall of the pristine winter‘s legacy. If you’ve ever watched Gladiator, you have heard the tremendous voice of Lisa Gerrard (Dead Can Dance: http://www.lisagerrard.com/) you would know just how chilling her voice can be. It has been described as “otherworldly.” I see it as a perfect representation of the only world. She comes from a suburb 20 minutes from where I live. Lisa grew up around various cultures, taking inspiration from the experience of their music. She sings sounds as if the sounds were words, yet they are not -- they convey pure feeling. “Now we are Free” (Gladiator soundtrack) is a perfect example. Sound system turned right up, I indulged my love of tragedy, the deep tones of her voice vibrating through my body, each fall of her voice into oblivion intensified by floorboard acoustics; relieved by the intertwined contrasting highs and the sharp, rapping excitement of tribal war drums. Images of Maximus, who finally slew the evil Caesar, as he closes his eyes, smiling at his dead wife and child who beckon him from beyond.

Oh, the tragedy of love; the tragedy of sensual experience -- the passion and anticipation of freedom from feeling through feeling, turning love directly against itself...

.

If people realized this for what it is, and spoke truth to themselves, this world would surely be a better place, but how common is that common sense? Which I indeed see as common sense, but yet, it seems to be quite rare. So what should I actually call my sense? :D

just know that the use of common sense inhabits that :perfect proportion suggests no alteration,and what is useless decays.

bert wrote:

If people realized this for what it is, and spoke truth to themselves, this world would surely be a better place, but how common is that common sense? Which I indeed see as common sense, but yet, it seems to be quite rare. So what should I actually call my sense? :D

just know that the use of common sense inhabits that :perfect proportion suggests no alteration,and what is useless decays.

Actually, I prefer "gezond verstand", 'healthy sense', more apt and makes more sense to me. As in 'healthy-mind sense'. :D

If you don't mind, what language is that?

leyla:

Do I really have to treat your mind with kid gloves?

Do what you like with it...it's your projection...nothing to do with me...

If philosophy is discovering the obvious...
then...

You have made a mental construction about me based on my use of a term 'Alter Is'...you have fabricated some meaning which you have no certainty about at all...

I can assure you I do not 'exist' in the framework of language you have created to try and capture me...

Your tone is antagonistic.

Why?

frank

Sapius wrote:

bert wrote:

If people realized this for what it is, and spoke truth to themselves, this world would surely be a better place, but how common is that common sense? Which I indeed see as common sense, but yet, it seems to be quite rare. So what should I actually call my sense? :D

just know that the use of common sense inhabits that :perfect proportion suggests no alteration,and what is useless decays.

Actually, I prefer "gezond verstand", 'healthy sense', more apt and makes more sense to me. As in 'healthy-mind sense'. :D

yes ,that's even closer to gezond verstand

If you don't mind, what language is that?

flemish,which is nearly the same as dutch.

frank wrote:

Your tone is antagonistic.

Why?

It's an expression of love, turning back on itself. Or, you are projecting.

Why are you evasive?

I'm practising assertiveness...or being assertive...as opposed to aggressive or passive...

..in the context of what feels like aggression coming from you.

How am I going?

Do you feel OK?

You have to admit if you value 'fairness'....that from myself using the term 'alter-is'....you made up a Story that was somehow intended to injure me or repudiate me.

Why wouldn't a Therapist make a presence in a Forum?

I mean...personalities and antics abound...it's rich fodder.

It's brilliant...

And entertaining...an hour or two a day is quite fulfilling thankyou.

frank

frank,

I'm practising assertiveness...or being assertive...as opposed to aggressive or passive...

..in the context of what feels like aggression coming from you.

How am I going?

Really badly, actually. Especially since you are asserting nothing but evasivenss! I’m not surprised you ask, though.

Do you feel OK?

Sure I do. Why the heck wouldn’t I?

You have to admit if you value 'fairness'....that from myself using the term 'alter-is'....you made up a Story that was somehow intended to injure me or repudiate me.

No, frank. That’s your story -- and your paranoia. I didn’t make anything up. I know that term as part of the Scientology Axioms, so I asked you about it.

Astonishing.

Are you what a Scientologist would call a “squirrel,” frank? Is that why you anticipate injury and repudiation? (NB: in the absence of answers from you, these are simply more questions and not statements of fact. I figure it has become necessary for me to point out even the most obvious, now.)

Why wouldn't a Therapist make a presence in a Forum?

My friend is not a therapist. She’s a Scientologist. You are the “therapist,” and here you are!

Again, what training have you had? How did you come to use the term “Alter-is”? If you can be interested enough to let us know your vocation and use such terms, why can I not be equally interested in them without being accused of ill intent?

Why, frank, do you need to practise assertiveness when asked a straightforward, simple question or two?

Something you said earlier:

You live inside a little 'cocoon'....inside a little space helmet...
you have your own private Idaho...

me too...

We don't tell our Story because others might think we are crazy....so we hide it...and are separated by that...

Can you even conceive an existence that is not like this?

.

Leyla,
Why would I reveal myself to you?
What would it bring me?
Scorn, derision.
That's your 'bag' isn't it?
What your pride is based on.
Cold.

You are not what I want.

frank

?!

(Gobsmacked.)

Well, what do you know. I am deluded and unconscious.

I thought this was a philosophy forum, not some weird kinda pick up joint where you reveal your naked self to someone in the toilets.

Had I known better, I would have walked around in lingerie smiling sweetly the whole time instead so that I may be accepted; may be courted by a fine, dashing young man. It’s by far not the first time, though, that I have been pushed away by a man for not “thinking” what and how he wanted me to think. But, at the same time, I have apparently been so physically attractive (couldn’t have been my mind!) to them that they couldn’t let go: not even after many years.

Makes for excellent drama.

I think this is what Sue means when she says that a female -- by virtue of her femaleness -- doesn’t have to struggle to be accepted into the loving, nurturing fold that is Woman. She can always fall back on it. It is her birth right; a birth right that is a spiritual death sentence. A birth right that we will continue to thrust upon every female in order to fill the emptiness and pain -- the lack -- of male.

Not so long ago, my way was garlanded. Now the road is barren; desolate.

Oh, inheritance -- thy name is vanity and pestilence!

.

Leyla,

I thought this was a philosophy forum, not some weird kinda pick up joint where you reveal your naked self to someone in the toilets.

I thought so, too...but when I read this topic all I see is "blah blah blah", flirting and pandering. "You me you me blah blah blah". This is nothing but a bathroom.

I don't see anyone with a passion for understanding. I don't see any philosophy going on in here. I see playing and bantering. That isn't philosophy. Everyone here talks about eachother's personality traits...is that so entertaining? Soon, those traits will disappear forever and you'll be left with nothing to entertain you.

Let your desire for understanding entertain you. Let it consume you...so that you stop bantering about nothing useful.

Everyone here thinks they get it. "I understand the truth!" Everyone is so wrong, because the one that understands is the root of delusion. Any understanding built upon that delusion isn't true understanding. Yet people still come on this forum waving their flag around, banging their own drum, like proud patriots of themselves. Everyone toots their own horn.

So I come onto a topic like this, and all I read is "honk honk honk." Absolutely useless.

Leyla,
Your stated purpose is to 'attack'....the lack of 'clarity of thought' wherever you find it.

You asked for my personal details.

My 'clarity of thought' tells me that to provide those details would show a distinct lack of 'clarity of thought'.

I can't simply trust that having you run your cold, calculating eye over my personal details would guarantee 'clarity of thought' from you.

But I could wager London to a Brick that I would be attacked.

For that is what you want to do.

frank

First this precious human body free and well-favoured is difficult to gain easy to lose, now I must do something meaningful.

Second, the world and its inhabitants are impermanent; especially the life of beings is like a bubble; death comes without warning, this body will be a corpse. At that time the dharma is my only help, I will practice with exertion.

Third, when death comes, I will be helpless because of past karma. I must abandon evil deeds and neurotic preoccupations. Thinking this every day I will examine myself.

Fourth, the homes, friends wealth and comforts of samsara are the constant torment of the three sufferings, just like a feast before the executioner leads you away to your death. I will cut desire and attachment and attain enlightenment through exertion.

tharpa:

First this precious human body free and well-favoured is difficult to gain easy to lose, now I must do something meaningful.

Second, the world and its inhabitants are impermanent; especially the life of beings is like a bubble; death comes without warning, this body will be a corpse. At that time the dharma is my only help, I will practice with exertion.

Third, when death comes, I will be helpless because of past karma. I must abandon evil deeds and neurotic preoccupations. Thinking this every day I will examine myself.

Fourth, the homes, friends wealth and comforts of samsara are like a feast before the executioner leads you away to your death. I will cut desire and attachment and attain enlightenment through exertion.

You don't know any of that...you read it in a book...correct?

frank

well, I don't claim to 'know' all that much. But this was summoned from memory from one I used daily in the 1980's (and there are some minor errors). There are hundreds of different versions; it exists in quite a few schools of buddhism, and is mainly used as a 'warm-up' contemplation before doing other more complex practices.

I threw it in here not to proseletyse or anything but because it might contribute to the thread. Extra source material, you might say.

Not everything has to be an argument, after all!

tharpa:

Extra source material, you might say.

Extra Fiction you might say.

Did you hear the one about Snow White?....well there was this Wicked Queen and a poison Apple and then Grumpy and Sneezy whistled Hi Ho, Hi Ho...

frank