GENIUS FORUMS

sschaula wrote:Nick,I see potential as well, and I see that the potential will never be reached. To be clear, the potential is that people stop believing in stupid things and start living with some common sense and decency. It's not some pipe dream of "enlightenment".

Who said anything about enlightenment?

sschaula wrote:Then you will help no one, because there is no one who is perfect.

I didn't say I had to be perfect to help someone. I was only implying that I need to focus on myself right now.

sschaula wrote:

Nick Treklis wrote:Either way what's destined to happen will, our death lies in ignorance, our salvation lies in Truth.

That's very culty sounding.

Scott Schaula - "let human-kind be the unconscious animals they are, killing eachother off and hungrily seeking power at all costs....then dying and having all they've accumulated become worthless to them. Ceasing to exist."

That sounds "culty" to me.

sschaula wrote:Our death lies in destiny, meaning that it will happen to us no matter what, and nothing will ever save us from that.

Death or salvation.

sschaula wrote:Truth affords us only the understanding of this fact.

Only an understanding? You say that is if it's wothless to understand the most intimate aspects of nature. Do you really hate Truth that much now?

sschaula wrote:Free from suffering? Then you're only lying to yourself.

When did I say I was free from suffering? I've traded in suffering for a different kind of suffering. The only difference is I know the suffering I endure now is for a purpose, making it more bearable.

sschaula wrote:The truth only set me free from my own stupidity, not from feelings. If what happened to you is working for you, then good. Brainwashing does seem to help some people. However, it's just kind of ironic that someone who is brainwashed is talking about the truth.

I'm not trying to compare myself to you, I'm only offering you and anyone else a part of who I am. Your groundless claims of me being brainwashed is only a sign of your insecurity.

sschaula wrote:The REAL truth isn't for everyone. It's certainly not for me, but it appears as if I have no choice now, since the blade has already pierced my belly.

Then man up and push it all the way through, either way it's going to kill you!

sschaula wrote:...I want to make one thing clear: a person isn't irresponsible or bad if they choose to ignore philosophy and discussions of truth/reality. That's one thing I found out for sure, when I discovered truth/reality and true philosophy. Making people feel bad if they're not philosophical enough, or if they don't get it well enough, is just a scare tactic that some use to get people to believe in whatever it is that the speakers are selling.

This must be in reference to someone else because I know I never said anyone was "bad" because they ignore philosophy. If one feels bad, guilty, or irresponsible about doing so it is their ego that is responsible, not the man speaking the Truth.

Scott Schaula - "let human-kind be the unconscious animals they are, killing eachother off and hungrily seeking power at all costs....then dying and having all they've accumulated become worthless to them. Ceasing to exist."

That sounds "culty" to me.

It is a pointer to his religious mind in my book. This a dude who enlisted in the med corps as result of the Iraq war for some reason. A reason that he never stated.

It is very subtle - he is searching for a non-existent higher power, and thought he could find it in himself via wisdom. He is resentful because he did not find that through wisdom.

Mind you he is right in what he says - it is after all the basic nature of all beings and things generally.

Scott,

Come face to face with being about as significant in this world as a speck of dust and find out for yourself. Or realize that you will die in a few years, and try to imagine what it will be like afterwards. Then think of the implications that has on your own life. Or realizing that everything you know amounts to nothing. Every friend you have can stab you in the back easily. Realize that you could just as easily do the same to someone else.

Done all that. You're not the only person to drift through nihilism.

Try to think of the meaning of your life....what do you want out of it? Are you striving towards what you want?

I think you answered the question above. If what you said above is true, then trying to get things out of life would be absurd, and it would be doubly absurd to strive toward these things.

Digestion...haha. There's not much to digest. It's not as if I'm grasping some concept of truth...that's not what it's like to know the truth.

There is much to digest. It can take years from the acceptance of a truth to the time it has soaked deep into your bones. You will not remain as you are, presenting facts about life while still immersed in your emotional reaction to them.

Nick,

Who said anything about enlightenment?

I clarified the point for two purposes. One - to see if that's what you were talking about, and two - to make sure anyone reading this knows that it's not what I'm talking about.

I didn't say I had to be perfect to help someone. I was only implying that I need to focus on myself right now.

What exactly are you focusing on? Are you not helping others now that you focus on yourself?

I said:

"let human-kind be the unconscious animals they are, killing eachother off and hungrily seeking power at all costs....then dying and having all they've accumulated become worthless to them. Ceasing to exist."

You responded:

That sounds "culty" to me.

Really? I don't know of any cults that say our death is the end of it. Most ignore death, and focus on "salvation"..."the truth", etc.

I said:

Our death lies in destiny, meaning that it will happen to us no matter what, and nothing will ever save us from that.

You responded:

Death or salvation.

I am not sure what you mean. There's no salvation from death.

I said:

Truth affords us only the understanding of this fact.

You responded:

Only an understanding? You say that is if it's wothless to understand the most intimate aspects of nature. Do you really hate Truth that much now?

I don't hate the truth. Yes, understanding the truth is only an understanding and not any kind of salvation. Yes, it's worthless to understand the most intimate aspects of nature. But I suppose if it satisfies someone's curiosity, then it's worth it to them.

People play video games and try to beat the last level. I suppose it's worth it...nothing better to do.

When did I say I was free from suffering? I've traded in suffering for a different kind of suffering. The only difference is I know the suffering I endure now is for a purpose, making it more bearable.

What's the purpose of your suffering?

I'm not trying to compare myself to you, I'm only offering you and anyone else a part of who I am. Your groundless claims of me being brainwashed is only a sign of your insecurity.

You just seem brainwashed by this ideology. If me saying that makes me insecure, then...okay. I don't know what I'm insecure about exactly, by pointing out my opinion to you.

Sure, I'm insecure about things. Like if I got caught masturbating by my grandparents...I wouldn't feel too secure then. If I make a fool of myself I don't feel so comfortable. I don't see what this has to do with me letting you know I think you're brainwashed, though.

Then man up and push it all the way through, either way it's going to kill you!

Maybe you've misunderstood something. I will spell it out: there's no further to go.

This must be in reference to someone else because I know I never said anyone was "bad" because they ignore philosophy. If one feels bad, guilty, or irresponsible about doing so it is their ego that is responsible, not the man speaking the Truth.

It wasn't directly in reference to what you said. But I do think it was you that said finding the truth is the responsible thing to do, earlier on in this topic. So how is someone irresponsible if they don't pursue philosophy, and if they choose to live simply, not seeking understanding of all things?

It's not true that it's a person's ego alone that makes them feel bad, when they're told that they are irresponsible for not having sought out the truth. It actually IS the man speaking the truth's fault, for that person feeling ashamed. The person doesn't even know what they're feeling ashamed about, since they don't know this elusive truth that the man is speaking of.

It's a trap, and the way that guilty feeling person sees it, is the only way to come out and "win the game" is by playing along and finding this truth. Then they can feel responsible. If they have to suffer through it, they will accept it because it's for a purpose.

"The only difference is I know the suffering I endure now is for a purpose, making it more bearable."

I hope they come to find that it's not the only way out. They don't need to be led by the song of some pied piper. They can walk their own path.

One day you'll wake up (I hate to use that term) and realize that it's all been worthless. That this hot chase is just a nerdy little mind game, which has absorbed your life. You'll realize that there's no salvation, and you will have to accept the fact that you will die, meaninglessly.

I don't mean to sound cruel, but that's the truth.

Jamesh,

It is a pointer to his religious mind in my book.

Your book is pretty stupid, and in my book, your book is kind of insane.

This a dude who enlisted in the med corps as result of the Iraq war for some reason. A reason that he never stated.

I did state it - to prevent terrorism from entering my country. However, it does seem kind of stupid that I joined the military seeing as how congress is doing everything it can to allow terrorists in. There could have been more effective ways for me to go about it.

It is very subtle - he is searching for a non-existent higher power

This is the best point you've ever made in relation to me. I definitely have noticed that, unconsciously, I believe in God. And it does affect my entire world view. I can't shake the belief...it's just a part of who I am.

But you drawing the conclusion from what I've said here has just been pure luck.

Trevor,

Done all that. You're not the only person to drift through nihilism.

You may have drifted through nihilism, but if you've left those implications behind, then you've simply ignored the way things are...which is not very truthful.

I think you answered the question above. If what you said above is true, then trying to get things out of life would be absurd, and it would be doubly absurd to strive toward these things.

I am wholly absurd, and it seems to me that everyone else on the face of this earth is as well.

There is much to digest. It can take years from the acceptance of a truth to the time it has soaked deep into your bones. You will not remain as you are, presenting facts about life while still immersed in your emotional reaction to them.

I know exactly what will happen. I will continue on with things in life, knowing what I know, and then die. There won't be any glorious moment where the truth is fully soaked in my bones, and I become serene, because it doesn't work that way.

Anyone who can sit idly, and smile, in the midst of the chaos of this world - I consider an evil piece of shit. If you don't have an emotional reaction to life, there's something wrong with you and it doesn't have to do with wisdom. Understanding is separate from feeling. When the two are fully integrated, you can still feel like hell...you just know things in addition to feeling like hell. Sure, wisdom causes different feelings to come about, because your state of mind is different than another person's, but it doesn't mean that the "digestion" process ends.

Everyone's bellys will always be gurgling with shit. If it stops, you are dead.

Scott,

You may have drifted through nihilism, but if you've left those implications behind, then you've simply ignored the way things are...which is not very truthful.

Or I was completely truthful, and realized what the full implications of my insignificance are. For instance, while you recognize that you are little more than a speck of dust, you still say things like:

Anyone who can sit idly, and smile, in the midst of the chaos of this world - I consider an evil piece of shit. If you don't have an emotional reaction to life, there's something wrong with you and it doesn't have to do with wisdom.

If I'm a speck of dust, I don't think I'm going to concern myself whether or not I'm also a piece of shit.

You are trying to do two things here. You are trying to say "life is insignificant" while holding some things significant. Sorry, you can't hold both to be true. You have to penetrate to the bottom of nihilism, and get rid of everything -- even these all-important "emotional reactions to life", or throw away your nihilism altogether.

That is, you will need to do something like that if you want to consider yourself truthful. However, I'm beginning to suspect truth may not be a major part of your value system.

Your book is pretty stupid, and in my book, your book is kind of insane.

I've never been overly satisfied with your's either. We've never got on.

Consistent flashes of deep truth, then the shutters are drawn.

But you drawing the conclusion from what I've said here has just been pure luck.

:)

It is true I was guessing. I rely on intuition - on my subconscious - almost completely. I know this is a woman's trait, but it is also a philosophers - if the subconscious mind is not overly tainted by the ego, then you'd be amazed how accurately it can intuit. Of course it has to be prepared to be wrong.

I did however have a conscious memory of a quite intelligent "married with kids" religious friend of mine who valued the "bliss" of ignorance because he did not wish for the nilihism that a certain level of wisdom naturally brings.

You would have understood my point more if you didn't think I was delving into the depths of nihilism...which I'm not doing. I'm simply living my life. You're right that truth isn't a major part of my value system. When you have something (or know something), you don't feel the need to search after it. It would be silly...like a man searching for his skin.

Is it impossible to know the truth and still value other things? I say no, having experienced it myself. To think it's impossible is to be deluded. No one values truth alone.

Thinking that the suffering of understanding goes away after time, and after it sinks in more, is delusion. No one lives free of suffering...not a single person.

Jamesh,

I did however have a conscious memory of a quite intelligent "married with kids" religious friend of mine who valued the "bliss" of ignorance because he did not wish for the nilihism that a certain level of wisdom naturally brings.

Don't mistake him with me. I never said I valued the bliss of ignorance. I never said I can't handle the truth.

sschaula wrote:...I want to make one thing clear: a person isn't irresponsible or bad if they choose to ignore philosophy and discussions of truth/reality. That's one thing I found out for sure, when I discovered truth/reality and true philosophy. Making people feel bad if they're not philosophical enough, or if they don't get it well enough, is just a scare tactic that some use to get people to believe in whatever it is that the speakers are selling.

Philosophy is not for everyone, and it would be wrong to try to make someone feel bad for not being philosophical enough. It's already in you, Scott - that's why I think you'll be back when you are ready - and no, not for the "religiosity" of it. The idea is the independant thinking of it. There are only a few independant thinkers, but some are here and there are some sparks of independant thought in others here. I sure could do without the chanting of "penis makes perfect" in the background here, but that isn't what this is about.

sschaula wrote:There won't be any glorious moment where the truth is fully soaked in my bones, and I become serene, because it doesn't work that way.

There is long-term serenity, despite that feelings may still happen. Serenity is not a glorious moment though.

sschaula wrote:Anyone who can sit idly, and smile, in the midst of the chaos of this world - I consider an evil piece of shit.

Sometimes nothing can be done, sometimes something can be done, but the doing or not doing with serenity offers a better chance for the peace of reason and logic to take seed.

sschaula wrote:If you don't have an emotional reaction to life, there's something wrong with you and it doesn't have to do with wisdom. Understanding is separate from feeling. When the two are fully integrated, you can still feel like hell...you just know things in addition to feeling like hell. Sure, wisdom causes different feelings to come about, because your state of mind is different than another person's, but it doesn't mean that the "digestion" process ends.

I believe you will still have feelings, but the feelings will not have you. I don't believe that you will feel like hell - at least not hell as I would label it. The logical recognition of the futility of it all, especially if not countered with some pleasure in life, can be deadly on many levels, but it is not hell. I agree that the digestion goes on, hence the perpetual path.

sschaula wrote:What exactly are you focusing on?

Living according to my understanding of nature.

sschaula wrote:Are you not helping others now that you focus on yourself?

I don't know, am I?

sschaula wrote:Really? I don't know of any cults that say our death is the end of it. Most ignore death, and focus on "salvation"..."the truth", etc.

How can our death be the end of anything when there is no begining? I find salvation in this statement. What do you find?

sschaula wrote:You responded:

Death or salvation.

I am not sure what you mean. There's no salvation from death.

There is salvation when you realize death is ultimately an illussion. There truly is noone here to be born or die.

sschaula wrote:I don't hate the truth. Yes, understanding the truth is only an understanding and not any kind of salvation. Yes, it's worthless to understand the most intimate aspects of nature. But I suppose if it satisfies someone's curiosity, then it's worth it to them.

People play video games and try to beat the last level. I suppose it's worth it...nothing better to do.

Even though you claim to know the Truth, I think you have very warped interpretation of it.

sschaula wrote:What's the purpose of your suffering?

To live wisely.

sschaula wrote:You just seem brainwashed by this ideology. If me saying that makes me insecure, then...okay. I don't know what I'm insecure about exactly, by pointing out my opinion to you.

If you percieve me as being brainwashed because I find salvation in something you see as worthless then so be it, it is no concern of mine.

sschaula wrote:Sure, I'm insecure about things. Like if I got caught masturbating by my grandparents...I wouldn't feel too secure then. If I make a fool of myself I don't feel so comfortable. I don't see what this has to do with me letting you know I think you're brainwashed, though.

It's obvious you're struggling to find solid ground to stand on, you're caught between two realms of existence, lashing out at ignorance and wisdom simultaneously. It's a classic sign of insecurity. You claiming that I'm brainwashed is simply a good indicator of this fact.

sschaula wrote:Maybe you've misunderstood something. I will spell it out: there's no further to go.

It's a shame you feel that way.

sschaula wrote:It wasn't directly in reference to what you said. But I do think it was you that said finding the truth is the responsible thing to do, earlier on in this topic. So how is someone irresponsible if they don't pursue philosophy, and if they choose to live simply, not seeking understanding of all things?

Show me where I said that, I can't find it anywhere. I actually think I said the exact opposite of that when I claimed noone chooses to be wise, meaning you can safely say noone chooses to be ignorant either. People are caused to be exactly the way they are, there is no responsibility to be taken.

sschaula wrote:It's not true that it's a person's ego alone that makes them feel bad, when they're told that they are irresponsible for not having sought out the truth. It actually IS the man speaking the truth's fault, for that person feeling ashamed. The person doesn't even know what they're feeling ashamed about, since they don't know this elusive truth that the man is speaking of.

It's not the ego alone that causes one to feel the way they do, but the ego has the final say about it. There's no two ways around it.

sschaula wrote:It's a trap, and the way that guilty feeling person sees it, is the only way to come out and "win the game" is by playing along and finding this truth. Then they can feel responsible. If they have to suffer through it, they will accept it because it's for a purpose.

I hope they come to find that it's not the only way out. They don't need to be led by the song of some pied piper. They can walk their own path.

One day you'll wake up (I hate to use that term) and realize that it's all been worthless. That this hot chase is just a nerdy little mind game, which has absorbed your life. You'll realize that there's no salvation, and you will have to accept the fact that you will die, meaninglessly.

I don't mean to sound cruel, but that's the truth.

God has already blessed me with the burden of meaning. Not everyone is so lucky.

Scott,

You would have understood my point more if you didn't think I was delving into the depths of nihilism...which I'm not doing.

Oh, sorry. I thought you were trying to reach the core of your beliefs, and that the certainty you had about your own knowledge of truth was based on deep insight. That just leads me to question why you would say something like this:

When you have something (or know something), you don't feel the need to search after it.

If you haven't delved into the depths of nihilism, then you don't really know it. I really can't see where all your certainty is coming from.

Is it impossible to know the truth and still value other things? I say no, having experienced it myself. To think it's impossible is to be deluded. No one values truth alone.

I don't think you have comprehended the truths that you know. It is completely impossible to place any value in a thing when you know it doesn't have any self-existence. Those who know the truth continue living as they did before because there is no push to change their momentum, but that is not the same as them still valuing the things that they did before.

Thinking that the suffering of understanding goes away after time, and after it sinks in more, is delusion. No one lives free of suffering...not a single person.

You may be correct that no one actually lives free of suffering. Such perfection is nearly impossible. Were a Buddha to exist however, he would be such a person, though.

E,

Philosophy is not for everyone, and it would be wrong to try to make someone feel bad for not being philosophical enough. It's already in you, Scott - that's why I think you'll be back when you are ready - and no, not for the "religiosity" of it. The idea is the independant thinking of it. There are only a few independant thinkers, but some are here and there are some sparks of independant thought in others here. I sure could do without the chanting of "penis makes perfect" in the background here, but that isn't what this is about.

That's kind of funny, me coming back to be with independent thinkers. Doesn't that idea negate itself?

There is long-term serenity, despite that feelings may still happen. Serenity is not a glorious moment though.

Okay...your experience, huh? I'm not falling for it.

I believe you will still have feelings, but the feelings will not have you. I don't believe that you will feel like hell - at least not hell as I would label it. The logical recognition of the futility of it all, especially if not countered with some pleasure in life, can be deadly on many levels, but it is not hell. I agree that the digestion goes on, hence the perpetual path.

I kind of agree with you, except for the fact that there isn't a path. If you think you're on one, then you're creating one. If you think you're digesting, then you will feel like you're digesting. But none of that is the truth.

I'm done talking to you about this, Elizabeth. You think I have further to go, and I don't care. It's only a waste of time for me to continue saying the same thing over and over.

By the way, you can't ever stop being a woman. But you can stop believing in lies, and chasing mirages.

Nick,

Living according to my understanding of nature.

Isn't that effortless?

I don't know, am I?

I don't think so.

How can our death be the end of anything when there is no begining? I find salvation in this statement. What do you find?

I find a truth which is impossible to integrate. If you tell me that you have integrated that truth, I'll just laugh and throw down the bullshit card.

There is salvation when you realize death is ultimately an illussion. There truly is noone here to be born or die.

Tell that to me as you die, and suddenly realize the full implications of not existing anymore.

Even though you claim to know the Truth, I think you have very warped interpretation of it.

Based on what exactly?

To live wisely.

Alright, fair enough.

If you percieve me as being brainwashed because I find salvation in something you see as worthless then so be it, it is no concern of mine.

Mine either. No need to discuss that issue anymore, then.

It's obvious you're struggling to find solid ground to stand on, you're caught between two realms of existence, lashing out at ignorance and wisdom simultaneously. It's a classic sign of insecurity. You claiming that I'm brainwashed is simply a good indicator of this fact.

I'm not struggling with anything. Wisdom sucks, and ignorance sucks. That's the truth, and it sucks.

It's a shame you feel that way.

I find it freeing.

Show me where I said that, I can't find it anywhere. I actually think I said the exact opposite of that when I claimed noone chooses to be wise, meaning you can safely say noone chooses to be ignorant either. People are caused to be exactly the way they are, there is no responsibility to be taken.

I am too lazy, sorry. It may have been someone else that said it.

It's not the ego alone that causes one to feel the way they do, but the ego has the final say about it. There's no two ways around it.

True. Yet, I still say that the man who points the finger and says "you are guilty" is at fault...not the person being told so. The person being told that, has no say in the matter. It's not based on something they did and had knowledge of, but something they haven't done yet and have no knowledge of. In truth, they aren't guilty at all, but are made to feel guilty by the man pointing his finger.

I think I just said the same thing two or three times, so I won't discuss that point anymore.

God has already blessed me with the burden of meaning. Not everyone is so lucky.

God? Blessed? Do you truly believe in those things?

Trevor,

Oh, sorry. I thought you were trying to reach the core of your beliefs, and that the certainty you had about your own knowledge of truth was based on deep insight.

Did you? What made you change your mind about that?

If you haven't delved into the depths of nihilism, then you don't really know it. I really can't see where all your certainty is coming from.

Knowing the truth...not delving into the depths of nihilism.

I don't think you have comprehended the truths that you know.

How is that possible?

It is completely impossible to place any value in a thing when you know it doesn't have any self-existence. Those who know the truth continue living as they did before because there is no push to change their momentum, but that is not the same as them still valuing the things that they did before.

Theoretically, you're right. Practically, you're 100% wrong. Every living being places value in illusions. You do, as well. Every living being values stupid things, and no one values the truth alone.

You may be correct that no one actually lives free of suffering. Such perfection is nearly impossible. Were a Buddha to exist however, he would be such a person, though.

True....in theory. In real life, however, there are no buddhas. There are simply a few people striving for perfection, some finding a little piece of it along the way.

Believing it's impossible is kind of a logical flaw, since I don't actually know all of the people in the world throughout all of time. There could very well have been a person or two who were perfect, in the sense we're talking about.

Knowing what I know of human nature, I'm willing to risk it, and believe it's impossible.

Scott,

Did you? What made you change your mind about that?

Did you read the post that I was replying to? You told me to stop overestimating you, so I'm no longer doing so. It's easier to get my point across when I underestimate people, anyway.

Knowing the truth...not delving into the depths of nihilism.

It seemed to me that you were counting some very nihilistic beliefs among your truths. What you consider to be the truth is what -ism you represent: you consider nihilism to be the truth, therefore you are a nihilist. To know the truth requires that you know the depths of nihilism.

me: I don't think you have comprehended the truths that you know.

scott: How is that possible?

Did you ever go to school? Knowing something through rote memorization is not the same as truly comprehending it. You should have seen this time and again.

Theoretically, you're right. Practically, you're 100% wrong. Every living being places value in illusions. You do, as well. Every living being values stupid things, and no one values the truth alone.

The less stupid things and illusions I place value in, the better.

True....in theory. In real life, however, there are no buddhas. There are simply a few people striving for perfection, some finding a little piece of it along the way.

I can only think of one nobler profession than being a failed buddha: actually being a Buddha. What have you decided is more important?

Trevor,

Did you read the post that I was replying to? You told me to stop overestimating you, so I'm no longer doing so. It's easier to get my point across when I underestimate people, anyway.

I wrote it. I didn't tell you to stop overestimating me, although I agree that it's better if you do stop.

It seemed to me that you were counting some very nihilistic beliefs among your truths.

Okay, perhaps you were mistaken. Or perhaps, if there are nihilistic beliefs included in truths that I believe in, then maybe I've already delved into the depths of nihilism? Maybe that part is not all there is to the truth...just one side of the coin.

What you consider to be the truth is what -ism you represent: you consider nihilism to be the truth, therefore you are a nihilist. To know the truth requires that you know the depths of nihilism.

I don't consider nihilism to be the truth. If I were a nihilist though, I'd certainly need to have already delved to its depths...how can you be something you don't understand?

Did you ever go to school? Knowing something through rote memorization is not the same as truly comprehending it. You should have seen this time and again.

Yeah, I'm in school. You are right that there's a difference.

The less stupid things and illusions I place value in, the better.

I agree.

I can only think of one nobler profession than being a failed buddha: actually being a Buddha. What have you decided is more important?

Important? Haha. The truth doesn't value anything. Personally, I think it's kind of a joke to think you're doing good work by striving for perfection. It's a joke the way that people here do it, especially...just arguing your way to it is a very slow path.

I can think of a nobler profession than being a failed buddha: volunteering to help feed the hungry. Working at a free clinic. Giving homeless people a pretty large sum of money and making sure they get off the streets. Talking to a friend who is depressed. Going to another country to help spread knowledge about birth control, or agriculture, or medicine.

There are more important issues these days than understanding reality. That can wait.

In fact, I think those things are more important than even being a perfect buddha. Why? Because the problems in the world aren't mitigated by one person finding truth and peace, but by everyone finding it. How can people find it when they're starving and fighting to survive?

Bad things in the world don't become good for a wise person. There is simply non attachment. The bad things are still bad.

sschaula wrote:the problems in the world aren't mitigated by one person finding truth and peace, but by everyone finding it.

How does everyone find it if one person doesn't?

How do you know it's there if you haven't found it?

Greg Shantz wrote:

sschaula wrote:the problems in the world aren't mitigated by one person finding truth and peace, but by everyone finding it.

How does everyone find it if one person doesn't?

Obviously he meant that everyone has to find it; just one person finding it is an insufficient quantity.

I don't think it's possible for everyone to find it, but I believe that eventually most people could find truth and peace, it's just that I see the actual trend going in the other direction. I don't even see the overall desire for truth and peace.

Scott, here you go again:

Important? Haha. The truth doesn't value anything....

...There are more important issues these days than understanding reality.

This is not two sides of the coin. This is wanting two entirely different things, where getting one prevents you from having the other.

...I can think of a nobler profession than being a failed buddha: volunteering to help feed the hungry. Working at a free clinic...

I'd rather work at the SPCA, where they have the good sense to neuter the strays that they feed (and solve both problems).

Giving homeless people a pretty large sum of money and making sure they get off the streets.

Move to Canada and pay taxes. We give millions upon millions to homeless Natives, who then give millions upon millions to liquor stores.

Talking to a friend who is depressed.

Unless you are wiser than the depressed friend, you are both going to be worse off after a discussion. Depression can lead one to a closer understanding of truth.

Going to another country to help spread knowledge about birth control, or agriculture, or medicine.

*giggle* I like travelling! :)

I don't need to go all the way to another country to help spread knowledge about everything other people do wrong.

There are more important issues these days than understanding reality. That can wait.

An understanding of reality is the only way to know which of those issues is important. Otherwise, you are a blind man leading another blind man.

Trevor,

This is not two sides of the coin. This is wanting two entirely different things, where getting one prevents you from having the other.

When you already have the one, that is not the case.

Move to Canada and pay taxes. We give millions upon millions to homeless Natives, who then give millions upon millions to liquor stores.

I'd rather not support communism.

I don't need to go all the way to another country to help spread knowledge about everything other people do wrong.

True. It seems people here are doing fairly well, though. Most aren't starving to death, or dying of diseases which are easily preventable. We live in relative peace, here.

An understanding of reality is the only way to know which of those issues is important. Otherwise, you are a blind man leading another blind man.

Even "fools" understand what's right and wrong. They just don't know how to go about getting the right results. It doesn't take much philosophy to know how.

But to actually go about it, seems to take a miracle.

sschaula wrote:Isn't that effortless?

Well you asked me what I was focusing in, and that was my response. I consider focusing an effort, so no at this point it is not effortless.

sschaula wrote:I don't think so.

To anyone who values, or will one day value when I value then I think I am helping them.

sschaula wrote:I find a truth which is impossible to integrate. If you tell me that you have integrated that truth, I'll just laugh and throw down the bullshit card.

I have integrated it to an extent, and I continue to make progress in integrating it. So far there's no reason to think I can't fully integrate it.

sschaula wrote:Tell that to me as you die, and suddenly realize the full implications of not existing anymore.

If I am truly wise when I take my last breath I should have no qualms about saying that.

sschaula wrote:Based on what exactly?

Because you think Truth is something that's going to satisfy your ego like becoming rich, successful, or famous would. At first it might satisfy your ego but eventually it starts to destroy it. Your ignorant expectations have hindered your ability to make any further progress as of now, maybe permanently.

sschaula wrote:I'm not struggling with anything. Wisdom sucks, and ignorance sucks. That's the truth, and it sucks.

sschaula wrote:I find it freeing.

I'm interpreting this as "life sucks", but I find it freeing. These two statements should be at odds with eachother. I don't think you are being honest with yourself here.

sschaula wrote:True. Yet, I still say that the man who points the finger and says "you are guilty" is at fault...not the person being told so. The person being told that, has no say in the matter. It's not based on something they did and had knowledge of, but something they haven't done yet and have no knowledge of. In truth, they aren't guilty at all, but are made to feel guilty by the man pointing his finger.

I think I just said the same thing two or three times, so I won't discuss that point anymore.

So is it societies fault that Charles Manson orchestrated a number of murders? If only society would have just left him alone he would never have had to kill anybody. This is basically what you are saying, it's totally unrealistic. People's egos are going to be put to the test over and over again, there's simply too many of them for it to be any other way. I think I'm begining to see why you are so resentful of wisdom. If only it would have left you alone you never would have ended up in the situation you are now. It's all wisdoms fault right?

sschaula wrote:God? Blessed? Do you truly believe in those things?

If you understand it in the context that I intended it to be understood in then absolutely.

If I am truly wise when I take my last breath I should have no qualms about saying that.

I hope for your sake I'm not right. Not getting what you desire and have worked hard for sucks.

Because you think Truth is something that's going to satisfy your ego like becoming rich, successful, or famous would. At first it might satisfy your ego but eventually it starts to destroy it. Your ignorant expectations have hindered your ability to make any further progress as of now, maybe permanently.

Do I really think that of the truth, or have you put me into a box of stupid people? What expectations do I really have...do you know them?

In light of the truth, there is no progress to make. It doesn't scare me that I won't be up to your illusory standard. Why does it scare you?

I'm interpreting this as "life sucks", but I find it freeing. These two statements should be at odds with eachother. I don't think you are being honest with yourself here.

Then you've misinterpreted. I'm not coming to this forum and lying.

So is it societies fault that Charles Manson orchestrated a number of murders? If only society would have just left him alone he would never have had to kill anybody. This is basically what you are saying, it's totally unrealistic.

That's not what I'm saying. If we were to relate this example to what we were talking about, I'd be saying that Charles Manson wouldn't feel guilty about his future murders before he's committed them unless someone kept calling him a murderer. Or, in another fashion, he wouldn't feel guilty if when he committed them he was completely out of his mind, until someone told him "you killed these people".

I think I'm begining to see why you are so resentful of wisdom. If only it would have left you alone you never would have ended up in the situation you are now. It's all wisdoms fault right?

Wisdom is faultless, since it's just a term describing a person who knows the truth. If anyone, or anything, is at fault for the shitty condition that the world is in, it's the world itself.

I wouldn't say I'm resentful.

If you understand it in the context that I intended it to be understood in then absolutely.

I think it's a cop out to use those terms when you don't mean them in their original meaning.

sschaula wrote:I hope for your sake I'm not right. Not getting what you desire and have worked hard for sucks.

Whatever's meant to happen will ultimately happen, it's not as easy to get as upset about things as it used to be.

sschaula wrote:Do I really think that of the truth, or have you put me into a box of stupid people? What expectations do I really have...do you know them?

It's pretty obvious your ego isn't getting what it wants out of wisdom. You said yourself that you are "seeking a higher power", just another sign of your insecurity and inability to come face to face with the Truth.

sschaula wrote:It doesn't scare me that I won't be up to your illusory standard. Why does it scare you?

I'm not trying to make you scared. Why are you so paranoid?

sschaula wrote:Then you've misinterpreted. I'm not coming to this forum and lying.

If you don't mind then please do explain how those two statements aren't at odds with eachother.

sschaula wrote:That's not what I'm saying. If we were to relate this example to what we were talking about, I'd be saying that Charles Manson wouldn't feel guilty about his future murders before he's committed them unless someone kept calling him a murderer.

If someone kept calling me a thief even though I never stole from them I would never feel even the least bit guilty. Any reasonable person would feel the same as me.

sschaula wrote:Or, in another fashion, he wouldn't feel guilty if when he committed them he was completely out of his mind, until someone told him "you killed these people".

Not everyone wants to hear the truth, they might get their feelings hurt.

sschaula wrote:I wouldn't say I'm resentful.

Well you did say "wisdom sucks".

sschaula wrote:I think it's a cop out to use those terms when you don't mean them in their original meaning.

I intended for them to be interpreted in their original meaning, it's just that many people attach irrational notions to these terms. If one is wise enough they will understaind it with perfect clarity.

Scott,

Hey man. Got any beers?