GENIUS FORUMS

U.S. Religious Landscape in Flux

And the survey says... more people in the U.S. are leaving the church in search of another faith or nothing at all. This comes as kind of a relief to me, mainly because I thought faith based religions were beginning to pick back up again. Does this mean people are becoming more rational though? IMO that is doubtful, I think it has to do with the materialistic and hedonistic lifestyles of so many people which are at odds with traditional religious values. I guess I'd rather deal with a bunch of mindless consumers instead of a bunch of religious nuts preaching about the wrath of God and Allah.

Deck chairs on the intellectual Titanic. Move 'em round all you want, the boat's still sinking.

[quote="Nick Treklis"]U.S. Religious Landscape in Flux



-Nick-
And the survey says... more people in the U.S. are leaving the church in search of another faith or nothing at all.

-tomas-
It's called (since 1947 anyways) the separation of church and state. In other words 501c3




-Nick-
This comes as kind of a relief to me, mainly because I thought faith based religions were beginning to pick back up again.

-tomas-
The mainstream religions are a part of the United Nations.




-Nick-
Does this mean people are becoming more rational though?

-tomas-
Clinton and Bush proudly toted their Bibles to church every sunday.




-Nick-
IMO that is doubtful, I think it has to do with the materialistic and hedonistic lifestyles of so many people which are at odds with traditional religious values.

-tomas-
When 33 Degree Free Mason - Brother Billy Graham, is laid to rest, watch for the story that comes out about him sleeping with a prostitute. Early in his religious career (when he was set up) by the puppetmasters, he had a fleshly 'weak moment', she was a pretty one, too.




-Nick-
I guess I'd rather deal with a bunch of mindless consumers instead of a bunch of religious nuts preaching about the wrath of God and Allah.

-tomas-
Yeah, Unidian and his marauding band of unemployed will be beating on your door (with baseball bats) demanding a handout :-(
(This 'hood has no time for the 10 Commandments)


At least with the street preacher you can walk past or turn a blind eye to his words of warning to walk the straight life.
(But know that your wallet is safe as you walk past)


Tomas

.

Dan Rowden wrote:Deck chairs on the intellectual Titanic. Move 'em round all you want, the boat's still sinking.

Do you refer to the imminent closure of the board?

Haha, no. I'm referring to the survey. My meaning being that you can move around the religious landscape all you want, you still end up being in a doomed spirituality. This trend of spiritual "experimentation" has been happening for some time now. Seems to sort go in cycles where people want to feel liberated in a kind of personal relationship to God, then get weary of that and opt for a more communal form of religiosity. It's a little like what Kevin wrote in Poison about Samsara.

Another source I read recently - which I can't find at the moment - suggested that the reason people were distancing themselves from churches was because of the churches' increasing ties to the Religious Right. Many more people are describing themselves as "spiritual but not religious."

Yet I've read reports of significant movements to Pentecostal churches. I suspect the only statistic of any worth at all is that of those who move to an explicitly secular view, and that doesn't seem to go much above 4-5% (in the US. at least).

I was listening to a radio show this morning that was on the subject of how to turn the city of Detroit around, and people would call up and give their opinions. Eventually someone called up saying that the people of Detroit need to find Jesus. Aside from the fact that the guy is a complete lunatic, it's actually quite ironic because the people of Detroit happen to be very dedicated to the Christian religion, much more so than the wealthier communities outside the city. America's new slogan should be; "America - if you don't get rich, there's always Jesus!"

Well, churches are doing everything they can to increase interest in church around here. Here's a local story:

Tampa church challenges married members to have sex every day for 30 days.

Yeah, there's a big difference between religion and spirituality.

Churches talking about sex is definitely a step in the right direction.

Churches talking about sex is one thing, but mandated sex is not good for the soul. This guy's theory was that the way to help decrease the divorce rate is to get married couples to have lots of sex. Sex does not fix a troubled marriage, and mandated sex can make it much worse. Adding the extra pressure of "you have to have sex with your spouse every day because God said so" to people who actually believe that there is an all-powerful, father-like entity that will punish you in unfathomable ways if you do not do as you are told, just turns God into the ultimate pimp.

America's new slogan should be; "America - if you don't get rich, there's always Jesus!"

Gotta hand it to Nick here. Nailed it.

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:Sex does not fix a troubled marriage, and mandated sex can make it much worse. Adding the extra pressure of "you have to have sex with your spouse every day because God said so" to people who actually believe that there is an all-powerful, father-like entity that will punish you in unfathomable ways if you do not do as you are told, just turns God into the ultimate pimp.

His intent was to encourage increased intimacy in sex, with sex as a way to open yourself to your essence. Sex can result in a connection to power or a distancing from power in lieu of a divisive alternative. Hopefully, this is a prelude to more discussion around sex. As it stands, a mandate may not be the best approach. You are right in that some will undoubtedly force the issue when circumstances are not allowing its ease. On the whole, though, it may be of some benefit.

.


Elizabeth Isabelle - Churches talking about sex is one thing, but mandated sex is not good for the soul.

-tomas-
Consider for a moment the actual building. It has a steeple, a dome, cross, and bells.

A steeple is the equivalent of an obelisk (penis)

A dome is that of a womb

A cross is the sign of woman

The bells are that of a man's gonads (balls)

The cross (woman) straddles the erect penis and sits atop the church

Note that the dome and obelisk are in all cultures (political too) See Washington Memorial before the Capital Rotunda Dome

When the bells are ringing it denotes orgasm.

= Babylonian Sex Worship

The Two Babylons - by Alexander Hyslop
http://www.biblebelievers.com/babylon
The classic 323-page book detailing the pagan origins of various Roman Catholic traditions.


Another reason why the Native-americans openly welcomed the roman-catholic white pagan man as he carried a cross (totem pole) before them and black madonna. (But then, the significance of totem pole is a story in and of itself.)


-Elizabeth-
This guy's theory was that the way to help decrease the divorce rate is to get married couples to have lots of sex.

-tomas-
Gives the "minister" (and associate pastors) people to counsel and fill with religious propaganda (half-truths). Keeps the membership rolls up, and keeps the kiddies in "Sun"-day school-related activities. Mind control is a wonderful thing. Divorce is bad as it splinters "the fold" off to other churches thus diminishing (watering down) the remaining flock members to an anything goes mentality.




-Elizabeth-
Sex does not fix a troubled marriage, and mandated sex can make it much worse.

-tomas-
Maintaining counseling sessions never hurt with the added benefit of tithing 10% keeps the electricity bills paid.




-Elizabeth-
Adding the extra pressure of "you have to have sex with your spouse every day because God said so"

-tomas-
These priests, rabbis, mullah's are God's moral agents on Earth




-Elizabeth-
to people who actually believe that there is an all-powerful,

-tomas-
Something is keeping the solar system in balance...




-Elizabeth-
father-like entity that will punish you in unfathomable ways

-tomas-
The fear of the unknown god-like entity is always a powerful motive to keep the sheep-being-sheared on a monthly basis. There are bills to be paid.




-Elizabeth-
if you do not do as you are told,

-tomas-
Humans are created to be lead. Spare the rod, spoil the child.




-Elizabeth-
just turns God into the ultimate pimp.

-tomas-
Alexander Hyslop wrote a wonderful book back in the 1850s. The Two Babylons. Just click it on a search engine. Not an easy read but an eye-opener. I came across a hardcover version while in the mid-1970s. Read it every 4-5 years without fail. Especially relevant in the Internet Age. The older you get the more life remains the same old, same old.

The Two Babylons - Alexander Hyslop.
http://www.biblebelievers.com/babylon
The classic 323-pages book detailing the pagan origins of various Roman Catholic traditions.



Tomas

.

I don't necessarily see any problem in religious folk having their sex life mandated to them. I mean, they've turned their whole life over to such mandates, haven't they? Why should their sex life we excluded? Might push a few wives towards secularism.

Didn't read the article, but..

Those who would follow such leaders, would probably also follow their rules in relation to contraception.

More sex would equal more kids, and more kids could compete with the escalating populations of the opposing Muslim crowd of similar types. So whatever it was the dude said, could, in his mind, kill two birds with one stone.

I don't know why people are leaving the church, but I wish they wouldn't. I know why I left: it gave me nothing, and I gave it nothing. Or more precisely, I gave what everyone else seemed to, namely, attendance to services once a week. Altar boy and all that. If only one of the clergy - and I was taught by nuns until high school and priests until college - had inspired me in some way, maybe I would still attend.

I have no idea why people go to church. Is it to show off the new dress or suit and the new car? It can't be that, can it? But for some reason, it distresses me that people are leaving the church. Because if they are leaving the church, where are they going? I left to get away from them. When they are there, I know where they are. I feel safe. It's how a parent must feel with the little ones all bunched up in front of the TV watching Sesame Street. Everything's as it should be for a few hours a week. I'm not ready for them to all of a sudden give it up. You know what happens when people start thinking for themselves! They call religion the "opiate of the masses." In my lifetime, I have been addicted to crack cocaine, cigarettes, and alcohol, and I know what it takes to beat an addiction. Withdrawal isn't pretty. You beat an addiction only after it has begun to beat on you. The church was the first addiction that beat me down. I broke free and went on to try worse addictions. Nothing takes your mind off having made a big mistake better than proceeding to make an even bigger one.

Priests always try to say it is the community that is important. They like to think of themselves as shepherds, I guess. But I remember the closest I got to a church was when I lived in New York and the huge parish at 97th & Amsterdam. I would sit outside on the steps while mass was in progress, smoking cigarettes and drinking coffee, feeling very peaceful. If people start leaving the church in droves, what will happen? Will the steps outside become crowded with people like me? I don't want that. Opiate of the Masses. I want people to keep taking their meds.

But at this point in my life, I find my faith is stronger than ever. Not in the Bible. Not in the Church, but faith in God. Go figure.

Ever read Francois Mauriac, brokenhead?

Never having been raised in any strict tradition, it is tempting and perhaps too easy to gaze toward existing religious structures and to see in them a 'worthy edifice' that shouldn't be abandoned so readily.

To me of the very best of the best in literary traditions were brought into the world be people who spoke from within their religious tradition, even those who rebelled against their tradition. When people rush away too quickly it seems they make a pretty severe sacrifice. And what do they end up with? Yet too I would imagine that 'most people' never really had much of a connection to their tradition anyway, or they connected mainly through habit, or guilt, or fear.

It seems inevitable, nowadays, that people abandon the traditional forms. It happens in a few way, one of which is taking up an exotic new form and 'wearing' it---like a costume; like a foil within which one hides oneself from oneself. Sometimes the leap into foreign traditions seems pretty insincere, pretty shallow. Another way people abandon the traditions that informed them is to sort of dissolve into a general mediocrity...a sort of cultural nothingness...a nothing and a nowhere. I don't know, but it seems to me that the farther away people get from authenticity---some authentic relationship to something substantial---the more bland and irrelevant they become. And what is there to sustain you in nothingness and nowhere? I see something like this among my friends and contacts (my erstwhile community) up in the states.

What a shame, really. My impression is that people far too easily are letting the really valuable things slip through their fingers. This occured to me when I reread Job recently. I really can't think of any other work of art or of philosophy that goes so directly to the core of things, and lays it all bare.

It has occured to me that some who criticize the religious traditions do so without really understanding what is really there, what sort of riches are there. They turn from what was their parent's or their social milieu's failed relationship with the existing tradition, with what 'God' could or should be, but did they really ever explore it themselves?

Also, in what amounts to a consumer 'democracy' of religious and philosophical 'ideas', most of what is out there---what is expressed---is excruciatingly mediocre.

And finally: a jab at Poison for the Heart; a wretched, bland, colorless and literally depressing group of pathetic and even toxic ideas....a slow-death for an enemy.

If that is what we're destined for, I'll take praying the Rosary...

;-)

Babylonian Alternative

It has occured to me that some who criticize the religious traditions do so without really understanding what is really there, what sort of riches are there. They turn from what was their parent's or their social milieu's failed relationship with the existing tradition, with what 'God' could or should be, but did they really ever explore it themselves?

Never read Mauriac - this is the first I've even heard of him.

It's a fair question that you ask here, Alex. What I turned from was that it seemed my parents and their parents, and their respective generations, in my local experience, had themselves never really explored what the teaching was about. I explored the tradition of the Roman Catholic Mass, schooling, sacraments, and felt none the richer for it. People ushering in and out of church on Sundays, exchanging the handshake of peace, then gossipping about each other on the way home. It made no sense. The only way to avoid the hypocrisy - that is, avoid being a hypocrite myself - was to avoid trying to look better than usual one hour a week and to behave more correctly for that hour, and spend the other hours in the week trying to improve myself. The life of the Stepford Catholic loomed endless and bleak. It was like someone giving me this option: Would you like to wear this paper bag over your head for the rest of your life, or would you rather take it off? I'm still breathing, so I suppose I made the correct choice.

Credo.

[Could you imagine hearing that, say, while high on a big dose of some psychedelic?!]

I came across and began to read La Historia de la Iglesia Catolica, written in the 20s, which both facinated and terrified me. The absolute certainty of the divine mission of the Church; the absolute assurance that the Church had, represented, and administered the only true Sacraments, the Cure for humanity's woes; absolute and unblinking faith in the historical mission of the Church, and a cogent argument against every identified heresy from the first days to the present. And it has these amazing etchings depicting pivotal periods in history, like Saint Peter preaching to the multitudes on Pentacost; Constantine's vision of the Cross and the words 'In Hoc Signo Vinces' that appeared in the sky; The baptism of the Saxon chief Witikind and the Roman Catholic conquest of 'pagan Europe', showing him in submissive posture---a good little boy---kneeling as the baptismal water is poured over his head. It moves fluidly and absolute certainty though all junctures of history, lingering especially over all the events of the Luther's heresy and the heresy of the French Revolution to make sure the faithful get the story right.

It is a funny thing about beliefs and belief-systems: the more that they assume and claim to represent an Absolute Truth against which there is no argument, and the more that they actually get people to believe in an intelligible, defined, unassailable Creed, the better equipped is the belief system to attain the widest membership, and also to complete the mission of which the Creed is the stated purpose.

In a children's nursery school, when there is not a known and trusted authority, when authority fails or is absent [lacking internal power] and the kids don't know any loonger what the 'rules' are, what the boundaries are, who the authority is, they get scared and very nervous, and it leads to physical and mental confusion and all sorts of acting-up. But when authority reasserts itself, the kids feel more safe, and when you peek in the room most of them are napping quietly, calmly.

Soon, it will be time for cupcakes and kool-aid.

Christ well knew that without a human agency, the legacy of his sojourn and the import of his teachings would be lost. If you listen to the words he uses, it is evident that he entreats every generation to consider his message anew, else they could not receive it as it was given by him. He came not to abide by man's law, specifically the written Hebraic tradition existing in his day, but to "fulfill it." This means just what it says. As a debt is fulfilled, it is no longer owed. We are specifically entreated by Christ himself not to be a slave to tradition. The letter of the law is what makes the law dead. When pressed as to which is the greatest commandment, i.e., the most important of the core of Mosaic code, Christ remarkably does not yield to the questioner, but says the greatest commandment is to "Love God." Nowhere does he say to break the code of established traditions, except when they get in the way of living by his new mandate. If you cannot find a way to live by his word and the word of "Caesar,' you must be prepared to "hate this world."

In the fullness of time, this world will be one in which the decision to walk in the world's ways or walk in the Lord's way will not be necessary. There will be no mutual exclusivity between the two paths. Even today, many people need not "rip out their eye" to maintain their spiritual integrity. Those faced with the decision, however - and this includes most of us - choose to keep both eyes.

The credo you linked to, Alex, makes me want to puke. I read it and go, yes, yes, yes, then, wait a fucking minute! Grease it up and expect people not to read the fine print. The creed implies that to agree with the stated beliefs, you must also agree that the Church is the sole embodiment of authority when it come to those beliefs. That is, expecting the reader to accept that if you do not agree to this inerrancy of this organization, then you are not truly accepting the word of Christ. A version of this "credo" is read aloud at every Mass. This is why, precisely, that I left the Church. If you have ever watched a movie on a cable channel, you notice that the first half is almost commercial-free. Then, when you have been sucked into the movie, they break every six or seven minutes towards then end with the ads. That is just like this "credo." The only rational response is to abandon the organization and its endless demand for tithes and fealty, and seek on your own. What you are looking for is spiritual in nature. No worldly agency can claim a monopoly on it.

Of those remaining Christians, there are quite a few intimidating ones. Here is a good commentary on that.

brokenhead wrote:

"The only rational response is to abandon the organization and its endless demand for tithes and fealty, and seek on your own. What you are looking for is spiritual in nature. No worldly agency can claim a monopoly on it."

I have...committed...sinful acts against another thread you started..and...just want to...well...apologize. I'm a Jew, what can I say?

;-)

You have hit upon a pretty important problem-question. Are you familiar with the mystical doctrines of tantra? Not the sex-practices but some of the internal concepts. I may butcher this a bit in my paraphrase, but one idea that interests me in the Indian religions is the idea of the 'murti', the image of God. The idea, as I understand it, runs something like this: God is indescribable and beyond conceptualization, but God is visible in effect in all levels of the Creation. In our conceptual world, necessarily limited, we can access certain ideas that are metaphors or allusions of God, and also we have symbols that suggest God, reflect God, or embody God, albeit in a diluted form.

Sri Yantra

Most of the Indian ceremonial forms of worship are deeply influenced by tantric philosophy, and the whole idea of representing the divine in a temple and in proposing that there are ritualistic activities that one can perform that constitute valid sadhna (meditation practice) or puja (offering, worship) are tantric in origin. So, it makes all the sense in the world for some Hindu to offer water or flowers to the murti (icon-image) as if it is God, or as if the offering goes to God who is unrepresentable.

Everything that exists on the Earth, in this sense, is a 'condensation' of 'pure ideas', and everything, even the lowest things, have some relationship to the highest. Ideas are born in people and become manifest in our world. There are some great ideas, truly wonderful ideas, but it is usually the case that in their institution in the world so much of that goodness is disfigured. Sometimes, though, 'peeking tantrically behind the murti' one catches a glimpse of the origin of certain ideas, religious forms, religious and spiritual impulses. You can see (this has been my experience) that the idea that gave birth to the form is a powerful thing, a powerful and relevant idea, coming form a pure source, but as it moves into manifestation in the world, unfortunately but inevitable, it is transfigured.

The horrible thing is that anything we might do, and beautiful idea we might have, any truly inspired idea, once the wheels hit the road, will necessarily transfigure as it comes into manifestation.

Sometimes, ideas enter 'the pond' of the world with minimal ripples, and so the Idea(s) expressed come into the world strongly, purely. Other times, the Idea comes through a perverted or compromised mechanism and so the 'birth' is already rather foul and distorted.

I just think it is interesting that we are forced to create earthly institutions that will always be imperfect. I grant you that the Catholic Church is a particularly strange, cumbersome and troubling 'condensation', but there are other ways to look at it too. I am definitely like you insofar as I insist upon complete freedom, and yet I can't see a way around assisting too some of the existing 'temporal' organizations.

I just happened to come across this, thought it might interest you:

The Jewishness of Jesus