GENIUS FORUMS

Here are some Muslim Videos I’ve been watching as a means to better understand the complicated global problem of Islamic Extremism.

Here is an Al-queda recruiting video: the music indicates a certain passion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cuHVLyX6Fc

An Anti-Semitic brainwashing lecture:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyL-9rrCDZs&NR

Exaggerating the west as infidels:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRsvdx9a ... ed&search=

Interviews with Iranian president:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChMmm2uY3X0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykd-syzZ4ZY

Question: What are the myriad of causes to explain the emergence of Islamic Extremism?

1. The Israel occupation of Palestine?
2. The atrocities to the Palestinian People by the Israeli Army?
3. Extreme Religious Brainwashing with twisted doomsday ideologies?
4. US Domination and interference in the world?
5. Male desire for heroism and a glorious afterlife?
6. A response to being oppressed and in poverty?

All of these factors are interelated, am I missing something that you would like to add?

Yes, I would like to add this:

Your causes are all secondary.

The primary causes would be these:

1. Planetary movements
2. The manipulations of negative and controlling forces, including but not limited to international bankers, politicos, and media.
3. Human ignorance, unconsciousness, and greed.

Carl,

I agree that the primary cause of the conflict is human ignorance, unconsciousness and greed. As you can see most of my causes are particular instances of ignorance, unconsciousness and greed.

However, one thing I don't follow is why you attribute value to planetary movements as a primary cause, is there something I'm missing?

Isn't that like saying gravity is a primary cause, or weak and strong nucleur forces?

Shouldn't primary causes for human conflict be strictly limited to human interaction?

Think of a teenager that has been abused. He is angry, hateful, and chances are he is not going to listen to you. It is better to keep your mouth shut in his presence rather than preach. That is something the US has yet to realize in the midst of all its moralizing bluster.

The Palestine problem still seems to be left over from about WWII. The UN proposed splitting Palestine into two, which happened, but people have been fighting over the land ever since, and chasing each other off of it.

UN history of Palestine problem

Jerusalem was supposed to be internationalized, but instead there were a bunch of wars just over Jerusalem because so many people insist that it is theirs because of holy reasons.

Meanwhile, although there are water resources over there, Israel's ruling so severely restricts the drilling for water that the Palestinean people don't have much water available to them, but the water that runs underneath them goes to Israel, and Israel gets the majority of the water.

issues

UN Palestine overview

I can't quite figure out Israel's reasoning on this except for the belief that Jerusalem is theirs for holy reasons, and I can only guess that the drilling restrictions might have something to do with trying to protect possible religious artifacts, but I did discover that according to the CIA, about half of Israel's international debt is owed to the United States. So at this point, the US also has these financial motives in this dispute.

Here is a translation of the Al Qaeda Manual. It might answer some of your questions about how people choose this expression of extremism.

I believe that plenty of people are just extremeists, but what form the extremism takes is more a function of what the person who is predisposed to extremism is exposed to. Of course the extremists don't view themselves as being extreme.

Ryan Rudolph wrote:Carl,

However, one thing I don't follow is why you attribute value to planetary movements as a primary cause, is there something I'm missing?

Isn't that like saying gravity is a primary cause, or weak and strong nucleur forces?

Shouldn't primary causes for human conflict be strictly limited to human interaction?

By planetary movements, I mean the movements of the planets. Cosmic influence. Nature, or what might also be called cause and effect.

Carl G wrote: By planetary movements, I mean the movements of the planets. Cosmic influence. Nature, or what might also be called cause and effect.

Carl, do you mean astrology? How does the movements of the planets do a cause-and-effect on human behavior?

***************

I found another interesting tidbit that could help explain the extremism. The Quran is taught in the original Arabic, even though most of the Muslim dialects are different enough from the original Arabic that it is like a different language. It is important to the Muslims to not alter the Quran from its original state, and it is considered a greater blessing to read the Quran in its original version even if you do not understand a word or it than to read it in a translation that you can understand. The original text is considered so beautiful in its resonance that it moves Muslims to tears. Children are tutored to be able to recite the Quran and are able to do so even though most do not know the meaning of the words that they recite.

Obvioiusly, there is a lot more emotionality around this text than direct understanding by the people. I can see how this would leave a door open for as charismatic person to spread his own personal interpretation of what the Quran says the people are supposed to do, and get a lot of highly emotionally charged young men to commit themselves to jihad based on what they are told the Quran says, rather than from knowing for themselves.

Now, add that to what we already know about youthful exuberance, that feeling of indestructability that young guys get (which often leads to stupid stunts, which they now have videos and television programs showing), and the newer discovery that the brain does not finish developing until age 25 (so the younger "adults" don't really even have the capacity to fully understand what they are doing) and you can see how much easier it is for a young charismatic leader to influence guys in their late teens and early 20s. Many may stay in that line of "thinking" out of habit and failure to realize that they should think for themselves.

It isn't just the extremist groups that recruit from that age range - most countries select their armies from that age range. It's a whole lot easier to convince an 18 - 25 year old kid to go someplace where they are going to be shot at than to convince a 35 year old to go do that.

Elizabeth, (thanks for posting the Al-queda manual - quite a discovery)

By watching the Al-queda recruiting video combined with what you have said regarding the ecstasy derived through reading the Quran text one can understand how this ideology has become incredibly bewitching to the vunerable ignorant people in that part of the world.

The major problem western civilization has on its hands now is that this ideology has spread and continues to spread like a virus. It has spread as far as central Africa, Indonesia, and central Asia.

The Al-Queda and other supporting organizations actually believe that they are destined to to bring down all western governments and replace them with islamic regimes. The believe that once judgement day comes, the jews, christians and other non believing infidels will be condemned to leave under the Islamic rule (which is in Allah's favor). And Islam will be the new superpower.

This is why the US and others are worried that they may resort to using atomic bombs when their suicide bombing missions continue to give no visible results.

I find it difficult to tell if the Iranian regime is an actual threat to the west or if they are merely developing peaceful nucleur technology. I have seen evidence to suggest both outcomes, but I am still unable to come to a firm conclusion to whether or not they are planning to attack Israel with atomic bombs. It could be just western/jewish paranoia, or it could be an actual threat, anybody have any further evidence?

I ask because even if Iran poses no threat, Israel may still unwittingly and ironically start a large scale war by attacking Iran to take out its nucleur facilities.

America wiped out Iran's power grid in the Gulf War back in the 90's, and Iran never recovered from that. Iran does not have electricity 24/7 because of that. Iran does have an actual need for energy.

President Bush himself touts the benefits of nuclear power, and has been a proponent of building more nuclear power plants in the US because it is a clean, cheap fuel. The "problem" is that the same enriched uranium to run a nuclear power plant can be used to make an atomic bomb.

There is some serious antisemitism amongst the leaders, and frightful expressions of intentions of violence and control, but that is not what is being circulated amonst the Iranian public. The Iran Daily regularly speaks of peaceful intentions. Of course there are also extremists giving speeches, as you linked some YouTube videos to.

People are people the world over. Most people in Iran are fundamentally the same as most people in America, Canada, Austrailia, or any other part of the world. Cultural differences make people seem more different - but all in all, most people would rather just go home to their loved ones, have some fun, do something productive with their lives - same-same. Power and leadership do funny things to people too. The world of the world-leaders is far different from the world of the average person. I beleive that us little people are far more involved in what's really a fight between leaders than a real fight between whole countries. I think if the leaders would just chill out, the rest of us would get along fine.

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:

Carl G wrote: By planetary movements, I mean the movements of the planets. Cosmic influence. Nature, or what might also be called cause and effect.

Carl, do you mean astrology?

Astrology is one way to study some of the larger cause and effect mechanisms at play.

How does the movements of the planets do a cause-and-effect on human behavior?

The cosmos exerts a huge influence on behavior, just as the movements of one's body affects its every cell within it. How could it be any other way?

Primarily, there is a relationship between sun, moon, and earth, which transfers energies of various types to us through weather and other kinds of waves.

Also, the changing positions of cosmic bodies within the solar system, and more widely, the galaxy, bring changing themes of zodiacal impulse, for instance lessening and increasing tensions, here on Earth.

These natural forces, harnessed with concerted effort on the part of certain negative entities to use them to their greedy advantage upon a largely unconscious, ignorant, complacent populace, is what is at the root of the "Islamic extremism" problem.

The stuff you and Ryan are expounding in such lurid detail are effects, not causes.

Carl,

Isn’t astrology based on planetary relationships that we cannot directly observe and confirm?

Suppose there is some truth to astrology, I don’t understand how this helps me to understand anything. How can I understand the psychological dynamics of the middle-east using astrology?

How can I understand the geo-political conflicts in the middle east using astrology? I don’t follow the logic of blaming human ignorance on planetary relationships, that doesn’t make any sense to me.

Sorry, I was off on a tangent.

You're right, it's the towelheads. Carry on.

Carl G wrote:Sorry, I was off on a tangent.

You're right, it's the towelheads. Carry on.

If you have a logical reason for your beliefs - back them up. There isn't anything reasonable we can do about the planetary movements, so it would be a lot more practical to focus on what we can do something about - but we can't do anything about causality either.

I don't think we're saying it's totally impossible, and it is possible that there are unexplainable forces, and things in one part of a whole can have an effect on other parts, but not all things have a significant effect... If I move my left arm, it does not cause a significant effect on my right foot; if I move my right leg, it causes a bigger effect on my right foot, and if my heart stops beating, it would have a very significant effect on my right foot.

If you have a logical, rational explination of how planetary movements have an effect on human behavior, please tell us. We're here to examine thoughts - I'm surprised that you seem surprised that we wanted to examine this astrological theory of yours a bit more closely.

Ryan Rudolph wrote: Question: What are the myriad of causes to explain the emergence of Islamic Extremism?

1. The Israel occupation of Palestine?
2. The atrocities to the Palestinian People by the Israeli Army?
3. Extreme Religious Brainwashing with twisted doomsday ideologies?
4. US Domination and interference in the world?
5. Male desire for heroism and a glorious afterlife?
6. A response to being oppressed and in poverty?

All of these factors are interelated, am I missing something that you would like to add?

In my view the whole question is already flawed. Islamic Extremism is a whole different phenomenon than terrorism.

When we talk about al-Qaeda for example, we talk about a group with a well defined geopolitical goal: driving out foreign military and non-Eastern interference in several countries and to (then) force regime change.

There's no difference with the wars from the past: a struggle between different groups with different geopolitical goals, willing to do whatever it takes to let their will triumph. In this global era we see instead of state-nations the same game with different shape of players: open-ended networks, conglomerates and international financing groups or old-friends cliques.

So the question becomes why people think this problem is related to religious extremism at all. Wars always have spawn deception to keep the herd unaware: religion, strong nationalism, state terror, fear mongering, amusement and propaganda come to mind; all become dangerously exaggerated in some way during the harshest war times, they become functional to fuel the war as well hide its true nature.

Mind you, in every geopolitical struggle there are at least two parties trying to dominate to get a piece of the pie. The tactics of one are always defined or heavily influenced by the tactics of the other. Suicide terrorism for example is caused out of extreme desperation and powerlessness, not so much by religious fantasies. Example: the communist non-religious Tamil Tigers who 'invented' the suicide belt.

Summary: to answer the now modified question "what are the myriad of causes to explain the emergence of Islam inspired terrorism?", I'd say that it arises in response to the increasing push to 'transform' the Middle East and other regions like the Baltic states by regime changes as started by the CIA after WW2 in the struggle against USSR, see also Operation Ajax. I do recognize though that these operations might have been in response to other looming operations by other parties with similar intentions. Things often do appear that way.

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:America wiped out Iran's power grid in the Gulf War back in the 90's, and Iran never recovered from that. Iran does not have electricity 24/7 because of that. Iran does have an actual need for energy.

Elizabeth, you're confusing Iran and Iraq here big-time. Time to familiarize yourself a bit further on the topic before making such statements, I'd suggest. The two countries have two totally different histories.

But you're right Iran does need way more energy in two or three decades but only since their expanding economy is asking for it and exported oil with unknown but finite supplies (see also: Oil peak) brings in way more money than the same thing internally used. They spelled it all out in a page wide NY Times advertisement (PDF, page 17 and up) around a year ago.

Well Diebert, that is one thing I like about this place - finding out the difference between what I was "sure" that I knew and what I actually know. I can't get this just anywhere - most people just let me go on with my misconceptions. Thank you.

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:Well Diebert, that is one thing I like about this place - finding out the difference between what I was "sure" that I knew and what I actually know. I can't get this just anywhere - most people just let me go on with my misconceptions. Thank you.

You're welcome. It's no secret that wisdom has nothing to do with knowledge or intellectual sounding blabber, but starts with knowing ones own current limits and possibilities intimately. And act accordingly. A long road though.

The road is vertical.

kowtaaia wrote:The road is vertical.

They don't come harder than that.

Islam itself is an extreme faith which doctrinally justifies war to spread islam. Islam teaches muslims not to stop lying and fighting until islam is the law of the land. This is the truth. I'm suprised that alleged truthseekers have missed the obvious.

Diebert wrote:

When we talk about al-Qaeda for example, we talk about a group with a well defined geopolitical goal: driving out foreign military and non-Eastern interference in several countries and to (then) force regime change.

But isn’t the regime change based on replacing existing political systems with Islamic based governments? Meaning governments that are run similar to Iran who use strict, yet irrational islamic religious text as a guide for morality? If this is the case, then isn’t there a relationship between Islamic extremism and terrorism?

For instance: Osama bin Laden is known as a religious hero and well as a war hero. He is using an extreme interpretation of the Quran to justify his politically driven terrorist strikes.

Isn’t this the truth? Or Was the documentary I watched on his life entirely propaganda?

Diebert wrote:

Suicide terrorism for example is caused out of extreme desperation and powerlessness, not so much by religious fantasies.

I agree with you that this is the case for the people in Palestine who are being oppressed by the Israeli army, but members of Al-queda are not in the same state of desperation.

They are funded by rich arabs.

When Bin Laden was leading, suicide bombers were hand selected by him and they were proud to die because they respected him so deeply and they knew they would be seen as a hero, a martyr for their deeds. Bin Laden was just as much of a religious leader as a war general. He practiced a very strict version of Islam.

Ryan Rudolph wrote:Diebert wrote:

When we talk about al-Qaeda for example, we talk about a group with a well defined geopolitical goal: driving out foreign military and non-Eastern interference in several countries and to (then) force regime change.

But isn’t the regime change based on replacing existing political systems with Islamic based governments? Meaning governments that are run similar to Iran who use strict, yet irrational islamic religious text as a guide for morality? If this is the case, then isn’t there a relationship between Islamic extremism and terrorism?

For instance: Osama bin Laden is known as a religious hero and well as a war hero. He is using an extreme interpretation of the Quran to justify his politically driven terrorist strikes.

Isn’t this the truth? Or Was the documentary I watched on his life entirely propaganda?

Diebert wrote:

Suicide terrorism for example is caused out of extreme desperation and powerlessness, not so much by religious fantasies.

I agree with you that this is the case for the people in Palestine who are being oppressed by the Israeli army, but members of Al-queda are not in the same state of desperation.

They are funded by rich arabs.

When Bin Laden was leading, suicide bombers were hand selected by him and they were proud to die because they respected him so deeply and they knew they would be seen as a hero, a martyr for their deeds. Bin Laden was just as much of a religious leader as a war general. He practiced a very strict version of Islam.

Ryan. Most on here are brainwashed idiots who will only investigate the truth to the extent the truth is inside their preconceived politically correct notions. Only christianity is bad. That's really the level of their idiocy.

Without realizing that the 9/11 attack on the U.S. could not have possibly been carried out by "Islamic extremists", there is no understanding possible of the current Mid-East situation.

When one sees that it was Western powers who partitioned the Middle East into present borders (after WWI), created Israel (after WWII), instated many leaders including Bin Laden, and in '96 more or less baited Saddam into taking Kuwait, then a pattern of control and manipulation on a grand scale emerges.

As I said before, thinking it's the training tapes and religious dogmas is like thinking the tail is wagging the dog.

Carl G wrote:Without realizing that the 9/11 attack on the U.S. could not have possibly been carried out by "Islamic extremists", there is no understanding possible of the current Mid-East situation.

When one sees that it was Western powers who partitioned the Middle East into present borders (after WWI), created Israel (after WWII), instated many leaders including Bin Laden, and in '96 more or less baited Saddam into taking Kuwait, then a pattern of control and manipulation on a grand scale emerges.

As I said before, thinking it's the training tapes and religious dogmas is like thinking the tail is wagging the dog.

Fine. Ignore the actual teachings and history of islam. Im not saying we haven't inflamed things. You're ignoring part of the problem. I recognize all of it. I am superior to you, because I am willing to recognize more facets of the actual reality. You're wearing political blinders.

millipodium wrote:
Fine. Ignore the actual teachings and history of islam. Im not saying we haven't inflamed things. You're ignoring part of the problem. I recognize all of it. I am superior to you, because I am willing to recognize more facets of the actual reality. You're wearing political blinders.

You're bullshitting me again. You don't know what I know. And your fucking ego is disgusting.