David,
sam: If it is all caused, you don't need to ask people to stop doing what they're doing. They will do what they are caused to do.
Ryan: No, If I am caused to be wise, then I can be in a position to cause others to also be wise if they have the personality to go the distance.
sam: Another free will argument, ho hum.
David: The question is sometimes put to me if I believe that everything is caused, then why do I teach others about the path to enlightenment? Why all this insistence upon the elimination of ignorance, and the promotion of reason and truth? If people are fated to remain ignorant, then what can anyone do about it? Isn’t it foolish to continually preach and implore other people to be other than they are determined to be?
I have no problem with you teaching or expressing ideas. Everyone has to do something. The problem with Ryan's post is that he completely misunderstands the causation argument by adopting a free will stance in relation to it. Causation is not about
enhancing one's 'I', it is about
removing it.
This kind of thinking is limited because it pretends that people lack influence over the development of others. It ignores the fact that mental development is determined by all sorts of factors - evolution, genetics, culture, parents, friends, teachers, books, and so on. Philosophers and spiritual teachers can also be a factor in the mix. If a person is inspired by a philosopher to pursue the path to enlightenment, then it means that he has been determined by his causes to do so. And if one day he manages to become enlightened, then the philosopher would count as one of the causes of his breakthrough.
And I think you are in danger of falling into the trap as well.
There is a school of thought which opines that if it was not for the existence of past geniuses - such as Jesus, Socrates, Diogenes, Buddha, Lao Tzu, etc - then the human race would have long ago degenerated into anarchy and barbarism. I think there is a lot of truth to this view. Although they lived thousands of years ago, these geniuses are still having a substantial influence upon the world today. They have become part of the factors that have determined your own mental development, and mine. Ethically, they are still propping the world up.
It's fine to be a teacher, but if you are teaching the causation argument, you cannot at the same time claim credit as a cause for others' learning, understanding, enlightenment, etc. The whole point of the causation argument is to remove the 'I' from the equation. Having an 'I' is about free will, the 'I' as independent agent. Under causation, everything simply happens and there is no 'I' doing it. So if you adopt that stance, it is absurd to say, "oh, and I am also a cause of wisdom." You negate the entire value of the very thing you are proposing and reveal a profound misunderstanding of what would otherwise be a valuable path, rendering it worthless.
In the end, genetic material is not the sole determining factor of a person’s nature. Just as important are the experiences and mentors one has as a child, and as an adult. While genetics does predispose one towards certain paths in life and not others, it is one’s experiences as an individual which determine the path that one eventually adopts and how far along it one goes.
I'm sure there is an infinite number of causes for everything. Just don't say you are one of them.
In my own case, even though I am genetically predisposed towards thinking logically and valuing truth, I may not have travelled as far as I have if it was not for the past heroic efforts of thinkers like Socrates, Huang Po, Jesus, Chuang Tzu and Kierkegaard. They helped spur me along a path that, genetically speaking, used to only exist as a potential option. It is because of this that I am motivated to teach others about the path to enlightenment. I can become that missing ingredient which can spark what is merely a latent disposition for wisdom inside others into action.
Okay, it does appear that Ryan is reflecting your thinking. Maybe you and I should hook up in the Crucible sometime and take up causation. You don't seem to want to notice the free will you are sticking into the very heart of your beloved idea.
Here is something I wrote in Wisdom, which follows along similar lines to what Ryan was saying.
I did click on your link but I don't have time right now to read it all or respond. It does look like there is a debate possibility for later, if so I can spend time on it then.
Dan,
Jesus, Sam, are you capable of seeing a person as an individual? Ryan's ideas are Ryan's ideas. They don't reflect on anyone but him. I mean, are your ideas Adya's or yours, regardless of whether you've been influenced by him? Are you a thinking mind or just a guru conduit?
Well, apparently Ryan's ideas are David's ideas too, at least to some degree. Granted, Ryan has no idea about how to debate, maybe David can do better.
