GENIUS FORUMS

Always kinda knew but partially wanted to believe otherwise, that I'm not any more alive than a rock or a tree or the couch I'm sitting on. So I'm experiencing things, yes, yet have no idea who I am.

And yet, I continue to discover motives of my self, I think mostly in relation to other selves. I don't see how this connects to things or the All. If only I can find those tricky assumptions....I hate feeling blind!!!

This is a big realization to find that you are no more alive than any other thing. Now what is the thing that you refer to as self ? Is it only in thought that the self arises? Is there perception but no perceiver or is there a perceiver beyond the perception?
These are big questions and to me are unresolvable, i.e. I currently believe that the mind cannot resolve these questions.

That's one way to look at it. Another way to look at it would be that you are alive, and the rocks and trees are also alive. You need to define life in order to determine what does or does not fit in that category, including yourself. Then you have to realize that you are the one who made that definition, so you are the one that made that categorization.

Hmmm, that all seems to boil down to "whatever you say, dear."

Better to see things as they are - namely, that things are neither alive nor dead. As soon as we say that we are dead, just like rocks and so on, then we automatically strip all meaning from both life and death. Life and death can only exist as dualistic opposites to one another.

Of course, the main benefit of viewing ourselves as dead, or rocks as alive, is the elimination of the boundary between life and death, and the understanding of the way we fall into the same category as everything else. In other words, it is a useful stepping stone to see all things, including ourselves, as being alike.

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Elizabeth, I had a hunch you might post on this thread. :)

maestro wrote:Now what is the thing that you refer to as self ? Is it only in thought that the self arises?

Don't really know what my "self" is anymore. When I look down at my hands typing they can look like completely foreign objects if I want them to. Also given that I can't think of anything other than thought, I'm ok with assuming my self is one bundle of thought among many, though can't quite pinpoint its exact nature.

The model I'm using recently is that I've become attached and can't move forward some of the mental frames regarding my identity. As a result the rest of my thought has to pass through these frames I've fixed in place. I don't really know if this is true, but have a hunch it might be, and am ridiculously curious to figure it out.

Is there perception but no perceiver or is there a perceiver beyond the perception?

A computer guy asked me what was wrong with the laptop, and I told him what I've been saying a lot about myself recently: "I know nothing!"

Need to get behind my thoughts.

Isn't it the truth that nothing matters, including the truth that nothing matters? Isn't the ego the only thing keeping us from withering away into "death"/supposedly permanent unconsciousness?

Also, isn't this "nirvana/enlightenment" a code word for the NOW/Flow, and the spiritual philosopher is simply less likely sucked out of the NOW due to the "suffering half" of his (fewer) fantasies?

David Quinn wrote:Of course, the main benefit of viewing ourselves as dead, or rocks as alive, is the elimination of the boundary between life and death, and the understanding of the way we fall into the same category as everything else. In other words, it is a useful stepping stone to see all things, including ourselves, as being alike

In your view, David, should we always see ourselves dead as a rock, or is it merely a viewpoint we can assume when needed?

skipair wrote:Isn't it the truth that nothing matters, including the truth that nothing matters? Isn't the ego the only thing keeping us from withering away into "death"/supposedly permanent unconsciousness?

Also, isn't this "nirvana/enlightenment" a code word for the NOW/Flow, and the spiritual philosopher is simply less likely sucked out of the NOW due to the "suffering half" of his (fewer) fantasies?

Of course it isn't the truth that nothing matters. You have to make nothing matter. Or let it; the ego is who you are, as opposed to somebody else.

skipair wrote:Isn't it the truth that nothing matters, including the truth that nothing matters?

Not true actions in the present have effects in the future. So things matter.

skipair wrote: Isn't the ego the only thing keeping us from withering away into "death"/supposedly permanent unconsciousness?

Not true at all. Ego is rather keeping us in a constant state of stress and unrest.

Skip: Isn't it the truth that nothing matters, including the truth that nothing matters?

Maestro: Not true actions in the present have effects in the future. So things matter.

They "matter" in so far as they produce effects. But determinism assumes fatalism. And aren't our "values" that "matter" simply habitual bahaviors installed in us by our peers? I'm pretty sure the only reason I don't commit murder is because I would feel bad, because someone told me murdering is bad, and I would probably get caught. If I was a caveman I probably wouldn't give a fuck.

Skip: Isn't the ego the only thing keeping us from withering away into "death"/supposedly permanent unconsciousness?

Maestro: Not true at all. Ego is rather keeping us in a constant state of stress and unrest.

To varying degrees maybe, but maybe not. Sometimes I get into mindsets where I am having a BLAST, usually when in a new environment with a lot of positive stimulation, for example traveling, or the first day of a new job before it starts to kill you, or chillin with buddies on a saturday with no other responsibilities but having fun.

In those moment I am 100% convinced that I have unlocked a part of my mind that I could keep forever. Maybe subconsciously I'm worrying that/when it will slide away from me. Of course, they do slide away, but isn't it those moments that are the driving force in life? Even in the case of a philosopher, I'm not sure if it's possible to act if not for the desire to say "Yes: me!". As is the case with two bears growling for territorial rights: "Me!", "No, ME!". Or with Beowulf (that movie is hilarious): "I am BEOWULF!"

The very fire for a philosophical pursuit of truth seems to compromise itself - because even with the future in mind, and even with a purposful direction (in vain or not), nature is blind and unfeeling. If it's other's feelings we care about, I think a different tact is needed.

skipair wrote:To varying degrees maybe, but maybe not. Sometimes I get into mindsets where I am having a BLAST, usually when in a new environment with a lot of positive stimulation, for example traveling, or the first day of a new job before it starts to kill you, or chillin with buddies on a saturday with no other responsibilities but having fun.

In those moment I am 100% convinced that I have unlocked a part of my mind that I could keep forever. Maybe subconsciously I'm worrying that/when it will slide away from me. Of course, they do slide away, but isn't it those moments that are the driving force in life? Even in the case of a philosopher, I'm not sure if it's possible to act if not for the desire to say "Yes: me!". As is the case with two bears growling for territorial rights: "Me!", "No, ME!". Or with Beowulf (that movie is hilarious): "I am BEOWULF!"

The very fire for a philosophical pursuit of truth seems to compromise itself - because even with the future in mind, and even with a purposful direction (in vain or not), nature is blind and unfeeling. If it's other's feelings we care about, I think a different tact is needed.

Yes but even conventionally enjoyable moments are a pain, if you are self conscious and the ego is operative. Enjoyment occurs when you are free from the self image, and the need for perpetuation of the enjoyment by the I. As I noted elsewhere it is all about pain and pleasure. Consciousness aligning with the true nature of things produces much more overall pleasure than anything else and thus is highly desirable.

skipair wrote: They "matter" in so far as they produce effects. But determinism assumes fatalism. And aren't our "values" that "matter" simply habitual bahaviors installed in us by our peers? I'm pretty sure the only reason I don't commit murder is because I would feel bad, because someone told me murdering is bad, and I would probably get caught. If I was a caveman I probably wouldn't give a fuck.

About values, yes they have to be consciously explored and then discarded one by one.

skipair wrote:To varying degrees maybe, but maybe not. Sometimes I get into mindsets where I am having a BLAST, usually when in a new environment with a lot of positive stimulation, for example traveling, or the first day of a new job before it starts to kill you, or chillin with buddies on a saturday with no other responsibilities but having fun.

In those moment I am 100% convinced that I have unlocked a part of my mind that I could keep forever. Maybe subconsciously I'm worrying that/when it will slide away from me. Of course, they do slide away, but isn't it those moments that are the driving force in life? Even in the case of a philosopher, I'm not sure if it's possible to act if not for the desire to say "Yes: me!". As is the case with two bears growling for territorial rights: "Me!", "No, ME!". Or with Beowulf (that movie is hilarious): "I am BEOWULF!"

The very fire for a philosophical pursuit of truth seems to compromise itself - because even with the future in mind, and even with a purposful direction (in vain or not), nature is blind and unfeeling. If it's other's feelings we care about, I think a different tact is needed.

Yes but even conventionally enjoyable moments are a pain, if you are self conscious and the ego is operative. Enjoyment occurs when you are free from the self image, and the need for perpetuation of the enjoyment by the I. As I noted elsewhere it is all about pain and pleasure. Consciousness aligning with the true nature of things produces much more overall pleasure than anything else and thus is highly desirable.

skipair wrote: They "matter" in so far as they produce effects. But determinism assumes fatalism. And aren't our "values" that "matter" simply habitual bahaviors installed in us by our peers? I'm pretty sure the only reason I don't commit murder is because I would feel bad, because someone told me murdering is bad, and I would probably get caught. If I was a caveman I probably wouldn't give a fuck.

About values, yes they have to be consciously explored and then discarded one by one. In fact the decisions are inherently taken by the pain/pleasure principle. It is time you made the principle conscious and decide on that basis.