GENIUS FORUMS

Jesus is listed as a bachelor in Kelly's thread, a model in Dan's post about schizoid personality, and in David's list of great thinkers on his site. Yet the Bible and Christianity are almost fully ignored. Why?

I ignore Christianity as it is practised today, because there's no wisdom in it. I ignore most of the Bible, because there's too much crap in it.

David's "The Horror of Jesus" isn't crap though.

For the simple fact that Christianity and the teachings of Jesus are completely at odds with eachother. Christianity ignores the implications found in the true meaning of his teachings in order to pursue their worldly desires such as wealth, love, family, and status. Desires that Jesus obviously detested.

Nick,

Christianity ignores the implications found in the true meaning of his teachings in order to pursue their worldly desires such as wealth, love, family, and status. Desires that Jesus obviously detested.

I don't think it's so obvious that Jesus detested such things. One of the central themes of the gospels seem to be that Jesus and his disciples gave up such things (beyond status obviously) in order to help others. This doesn't seem to be something he called upon everyone else to do. He seemed to advocate peace and charity, but I'm unaware of any point in the gospels where he advises anyone beyond his disciples to become ascetics. Even his most dire warning against wealth--the fact that it greatly decreases your chances of getting into heaven--only applies to someone who believes in heaven and the teaching of the gospels, and thus will be believed to be rendered moot by the fact that Jesus died so it would be easier for everyone to get into heaven. I agree with the fact that a certain segment of Christians selectively acknowledge parts of the gospels, but I don't think that Christianity in general does this.

I'm not a Christian mind you, and I don't think that Jesus said or did anything particularly notable that hasn't been done a thousand times prior or since, but I find theological discussion interesting. So there you have it.

EI,

I'm certain Christianity ignores the vast majority of Jesus's teachings, otherwise we would have a lot more people like Jesus living among us right now. I was raised in the Roman Catholic branch of Chrisianity and priests seemed to focus solely on the supposed miracles performed by Jesus and the fantastical stories of the Old Testament.

Jesus's wise teachings which can be found here in David Quinn's compilation, which I'm sure were meant for everyone, not just the conventional "Christians" you think they were meant for. Read through them if you haven't already and see how Christianity doesn't even come close to resembling the type of Christianity Jesus taught.

He seemed to advocate peace and charity, but I'm unaware of any point in the gospels where he advises anyone beyond his disciples to become ascetics.

Actually he detested acts of peace and charity without practicing the fundamentals of his teachings, something all Christians ignore at all costs. I'm reminded of this quote in particular:

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. Matthew 23: 23

In reading for class, I ran across something that was not an unknown concept to me for I remember when the Catholic Church discouraged reading the Bible because they wanted to teach the "correct" interpretation, but I never knew that the primary mover behind it was one of the most gifted philosophers, Thomas Aquinas.

What I find even more interesting about him is that he had some type of divine experience and called his works "straw" and never wrote again.

Nick,

Your missing the most fundamental aspect of the teachings of Jesus. He didn't advocate the elimination of attachments in favor of wisdom. He advocating putting no concern above YHWH--the tribal god of the Semites--and the divine law as it was given to Moses. If you read Matthew 23:23 in context you'll realize that he was condemning the Pharisees for being hypocrites. He was saying that they preached the laws of Moses without following it themselves. In particular, Jesus was concerned with the first commandment: "Do not have any gods before Me." The message of Jesus wasn't a message meant for intellectuals. He preached complete subservience to an ancient law and custom. Your pulling the gospel out of both biblical and historical context.

The only work that gives me any faith that Jesus had any inkling of reality is the Gospel of Thomas, a work not accepted by the mainstream church.

I personally wouldn't bother with it much now, though I was once quite interested in interpreting it. Whats good about it is how similar to Eastern philosophy these teachings are, as if the same ideas about reality came from real thinkers in the Mediterranean as the subcontinent. While they appear to be mainly reworkings of ancient Indian philosophies what matters is that Jesus appeared to accept the truths contained in this works that he must have heard over the years.

ExpectantlyIronic wrote:Your missing the most fundamental aspect of the teachings of Jesus.

I think you are.

ExpectantlyIronic wrote:He didn't advocate the elimination of attachments in favor of wisdom.

Tell me then, how do you interpret this quote?

"What people value highly is detestable in God’s sight. Luke 16: 15

or this one

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. Luke 14: 26

or this one

"Those who want to be my disciples must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For those who want to save their life will lose it, but those who lose their life for me will find it." Matthew 16: 24

All these teachings have to do with giving up one's attachments to live truthfully, honestly, and wisely, I.E. to live in the light of Truth.

ExpectantlyIronic wrote:He advocating putting no concern above YHWH--the tribal god of the Semites--and the divine law as it was given to Moses.

What the hell are you talking about? Mathew 23:23 has to do with religious leaders regarding themselves as spiritual just because they donate to charity or work at soup kitchens. They are merely hollow offerings when one has no relationship with God, Ultimate Reality, The Infinite, or whatever else you want to call it.

ExpectantlyIronic wrote:If you read Matthew 23:23 in context you'll realize that he was condemning the Pharisees for being hypocrites. He was saying that they preached the laws of Moses without following it themselves.

Words of wisdom are not confined by the context in which they were used. Mathew 23:23 can apply to priests, monks, and teachers of all religions at any point in time.

ExpectantlyIronic wrote:In particular, Jesus was concerned with the first commandment: "Do not have any gods before Me."

More accurately he said,

‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. Matthew 22: 36

ExpectantlyIronic wrote:The message of Jesus wasn't a message meant for intellectuals.

Where ever did you get the impression I was implying it was a message solely for intellectuals?

ExpectantlyIronic wrote:He preached complete subservience to an ancient law and custom. Your pulling the gospel out of both biblical and historical context.

He taught people how to live their lives wisely according Absolute Truth (God). Again Jesus's words of wisdom and any other words of wisdom are not confined by their context, be it historical, biblical, or anything else. They are words with a message as everlasting as The Infinite itself. Why do you insist on attempting to restrain something so magnificent?

It's funny how people always put words in the mouth of Jesus.

Why is it funny?

sschaula wrote:It's funny how people always put words in the mouth of Jesus.

But they don't really do this at all. People simply interpret his words differently. Ultimately, Jesus isn't all that important to the personal attainment of Wisdom. If we decide that there's too much nonsense and religio-political dross surrounding his life and reality we can just toss it all out without it meaning much.

Nick,

YHWH was the tribal god of the Semites. He's the anthropomorphic, fully transcendent, god of the old testament. Jesus was a Jewish teacher, and as such, was always speaking of the god of the Torah when using the term "God".

"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach." -Mathew 23: 2-3

Notice in the above passage how Jesus says quite explicitly that his disciples must obey the Pharisees and the teachers of Moses' law. Only after saying that does he go into a rant about their wickedness. In fact, his apparent loathing of hypocrites gives one reason to think he may have been married after saying:

"'It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you [the divorce] law,' Jesus replied. 'But at the beginning of creation God made them male and female. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.'" -Mark 10: 5-9

Obviously the above passage isn't a direct command to get married, but it does demonstrate that Jesus wasn't against such a thing.

All-in-all, I believe that my point is that you're projecting. You want Jesus to be a man worthy of worship, so you don't attempt to understand what the historical Jesus actually said or meant. You seem to just want some quotes that can be twisted to support whatever it is that you believe. I'm trying to discuss Jesus the man and you're fixated on Jesus the sage. There is no 'wisdom' and there aren't any 'sages'. There is only understanding, and when you understand a man you lose the ability to look up or down upon him, because you realize that he's essentially no different from you.

ExpectantlyIronic wrote: Nick,

YHWH was the tribal god of the Semites. He's the anthropomorphic, fully transcendent, god of the old testament. Jesus was a Jewish teacher, and as such, was always speaking of the god of the Torah when using the term "God".

It's obvious Jesus wasn't refering to the God of the Torah judging by what he said here...

"If those who lead you say to you, `See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, `It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the Kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you." Thomas: 3

"Whoever believes that the All itself is deficient is himself completely deficient." Thomas: 67

"It is I who am the light which is above them all. It is I who am the All. From me did the All come forth, & unto me did the All come forth, & unto me did the All extend. Split a piece of wood, & I am there. Lift up the stone, & you will find me there." Thomas: 77

The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us how our end shall be."

Jesus said, "Have you discovered then, the beginning, that you look for the end? For where the beginning is, there the end will be. Blessed is he who will take his place in the beginning; he will know the end & will not experience death." Thomas: 18

ExpectantlyIronic wrote:"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach." -Mathew 23: 2-3

Notice in the above passage how Jesus says quite explicitly that his disciples must obey the Pharisees and the teachers of Moses' law. Only after saying that does he go into a rant about their wickedness. In fact, his apparent loathing of hypocrites gives one reason to think he may have been married after saying:

Yes he's warning people that the pharisees don't practice what they preach, that doesn't mean he was saying they should follow and worship the teachings an idol God. Not to mention the pharisees could literally be any religious figures of the time. The Bible is not as cut and dry as you think it is, many people have contributed to it and edited as they see fit. All I'm doing is focusing on the bits of wisdom to be found in Jesus's words.

ExpectantlyIronic wrote:"'It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you [the divorce] law,' Jesus replied. 'But at the beginning of creation God made them male and female. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh. So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.'" -Mark 10: 5-9

Obviously the above passage isn't a direct command to get married, but it does demonstrate that Jesus wasn't against such a thing.

I could care less about all that, all I care about is the wisdom found in some of Jesus's teachings. Even if it wasn't Jesus who wrote these things it would make absolutely no difference to me on how I view the wisdom to be found in his teachings.

ExpectantlyIronic wrote:All-in-all, I believe that my point is that you're projecting. You want Jesus to be a man worthy of worship, so you don't attempt to understand what the historical Jesus actually said or meant. You seem to just want some quotes that can be twisted to support whatever it is that you believe. I'm trying to discuss Jesus the man and you're fixated on Jesus the sage. There is no 'wisdom' and there aren't any 'sages'. There is only understanding, and when you understand a man you lose the ability to look up or down upon him, because you realize that he's essentially no different from you.

What I am doing is interpreting the teachings of a man, supposedly name Jesus, written in a 2,000 year old book. When a wise person approaches his teachings with an open mind it isn't that difficult to see how Jesus was in fact teaching the same wisdom that this website was designed to promote.

Your argument is just another example of how you attempt to make wisdom as impersonal as possible by confining it to mathematic/scientific formulas and/or religion.

Nick,

I was talking about Jesus as described in non-gnostic texts. It's my personal opinion that the gospel of Thomas was written as an attempt to turn Christianity into a mysteries cult: which were quite popular at the time of its writing. It's well known that Jesus was a Jew, and as such, I find it far more likely that he believed in the God of the Torah, rather then held the Eastern flavored mystical views described in the gospel of Thomas. Of course, it is impossible to be certain about this. Nevertheless, I find it highly unlikely that Jesus held both the views expressed in the canonical texts and those in the gnostic ones. If we're to talk of the gnostic Jesus then I'll concede to you that his views are much more similar to your own then those of modern Christians.

ExpectantlyIronic wrote:I was talking about Jesus as described in non-gnostic texts.

I wasn't, I was talking about the teachings supposedly taught by a man named Jesus.

ExpectantlyIronic wrote:It's my personal opinion that the gospel of Thomas was written as an attempt to turn Christianity into a mysteries cult: which were quite popular at the time of its writing.

I find it more likely that the "Christians" at that time thought these teachings were to dangerous to include in the bible.

ExpectantlyIronic wrote:It's well known that Jesus was a Jew, and as such, I find it far more likely that he believed in the God of the Torah, rather then held the Eastern flavored mystical views described in the gospel of Thomas.

I was strictly raised to be a Catholic under the weight and pressure of my entire family and American culture, yet I ended up completely despising the religion. Why is it more unlikely for a man raised as a Jew to end up despising Juadism?

ExpectantlyIronic wrote:Nevertheless, I find it highly unlikely that Jesus held both the views expressed in the canonical texts and those in the gnostic ones. If we're to talk of the gnostic Jesus then I'll concede to you that his views are much more similar to your own then those of modern Christians.

In regards to this I just want to stress again how important it is to remember that many different people have carefully choosen which texts to include and which texts not to include in the bible, they also may have even changed the context or the very words themselves to suit their own agenda. My point is, it doesn't really matter where the text comes from or the context it is in, all that matters is that it is there.

Why is it more unlikely for a man raised as a Jew to end up despising Juadism?

It's unlikely that Jesus believed in a different God, or wanted to redefine what God was considered to be.

There are many things which are unlikely to happen, yet they still consistently happen.

I find it unlikely Jesus actually despised Judaism.
There was only one part of the bible where Jesus actually got angry and thats when he walked into the temple and found merchants selling wares. I believe that was a Jewish temple that Jesus was chilling at.

Its not unlikely a child will grow up and despise his parents religion, but I don't think despising anything was really Jesus' bag.

There are many people who "interpret" others incorrectly to justify their own point of view.

Scott, you are coming off as more and more of a complete fucking moron every time you post. Where the hell did you get the impression anybody, especially me, was using anybody else to justify their point of view? Even if everything about the way I interpret what Jesus said is entirely wrong it wouldn't matter one fucking bit! I don't need any person on this entire planet to justify my thoughts other than myself. Sersiouly, for your own good take your head out of your ass before making another inane post.

I want no part of a Jesus that wouldn't agree with me.

I think thats how alot of us who get the hell stick shook at us feel about the Christian God.

If you've never seen it check out
http://www.wayofthemaster.com/
There Kirk Cameron, thats right Kirk Cameron from Growing Pains, will shake a hell stick at you all day long.

Or if your looking for another Jesus, check out this one.

http://www.cegenglish.com/

Thats the new Jesus apparently, and he doesn't believe in hell or sin, but all other religions are "false religions".

Nick,

Scott, you are coming off as more and more of a complete fucking moron every time you post.

This is another example of you throwing away all common sense and trying to justify your point of view.

Where the hell did you get the impression anybody, especially me, was using anybody else to justify their point of view?

From the fact that you take an important guy's words and skew them to match your viewpoint, when his words obviously weren't about your viewpoint at all.

Even if everything about the way I interpret what Jesus said is entirely wrong it wouldn't matter one fucking bit!

You're right about that.

I don't need any person on this entire planet to justify my thoughts other than myself.

Then why did you type this plea to me?

Sersiouly, for your own good take your head out of your ass before making another inane post.

Seriously, learn how to spell seriously. Also think about this - why do you react so harshly when I disagree with you? Those are the actions of a person seeking approval, or still trying to sort out their thoughts on the matter.

Why do you say fuck a lot and use exclamation points?

sschaula wrote:This is another example of you throwing away all common sense and trying to justify your point of view.

Apparently you haven't removed your head from your ass yet. I wasn't trying to justify my point of view you fucking moron, I stated it. Also, I really hate using the words "point of view", it's something pussy whipped assholes use because they are affraid to confront their ignorance.

sschaula wrote:From the fact that you take an important guy's words and skew them to match your viewpoint, when his words obviously weren't about your viewpoint at all.

Way to completely avoid the question dip shit, it shows how inane and ignorant your thought process really is. The thoughts that come flying out of your head are so incoherent you can't even give a descent response when somebody asks you about them. First of all I haven't skewed anything, secondly I'm going to ask you again, where on this entire forum have you ever seen me use somebody elses words or thoughts to justify my own? Now I'm going to help you out on this, just because I have thoughtfully interpreted Jesus' words to be in accord with mine, does not mean I'm using them to justify anything about my self.

sschaula wrote:Then why did you type this plea to me?

Sersiouly, for your own good take your head out of your ass before making another inane post.

So I don't have to dig through all the garbage you spew out before I respond to what you have said. Then hopefully instead of having a man to boy conversation we can have a man to man conversation without all the bullshit, and you just might learn a thing or two.

sschaula wrote:Seriously, learn how to spell seriously.

Wow you pointed out a typo, way to be an asshole.

sschaula wrote:Also think about this - why do you react so harshly when I disagree with you?

See the second response above this one.

sschaula wrote:Those are the actions of a person seeking approval, or still trying to sort out their thoughts on the matter.

And whos approval might that be, yours? I'm simply tired of beating around the bush, or being politically correct with you. There comes a point in time when scolding a child isn't enough, you have to break out the whoopin' stick!

sschaula wrote:Why do you say fuck a lot and use exclamation points?

What kind of shitty question is that? You have more important matters to focus on aside from my cursing and use of exclamation points.