GENIUS FORUMS

Pulled from the welcome statement of this forum:

If one is not deliberately causing pain to the ego, both in oneself and in others, then what is the good of one's life? One might as well not exist at all. It is by challenging and overturning our cosy assumptions, habitual thought-processes, psychological refuges and mental blocks that our minds can be opened up that little bit more to the wisdom of the Infinite.

The free-flowing wisdom of the Infinite (Self) cannot be revealed by deliberation, for it is the activity of deliberation that halts the free-flowing wisdom of the Infinite Self.

Be still (take no thought) and know that I am God (Infinite Mind/Self).

movingalways wrote:... for it is the activity of deliberation that halts the free-flowing wisdom of the Infinite Self.

Consider for a moment that all activity is as such, including the feelings and experiences you're perhaps holding to be a manifestation of this "free-flowing wisdom". And it's not really halting of course - it's all dukkha, the potter's wheel screeching.

Consider for a moment that all activity is as such, including the feelings and experiences you're perhaps holding to be a manifestation of this "free-flowing wisdom". And it's not really halting of course - it's all dukkha, the potter's wheel screeching

Consider for a moment that all activity is not as such. Consider the opposite of dukkha, which is sukha, where one sees the potter's wheel turning smoothly, and noiselessly. What then of feelings and experiences of this flowing-free wisdom being manifested?

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

jufa wrote: ... where one sees the potter's wheel turning smoothly, and noiselessly.

But one never really does, you see?

jufa wrote:What then of feelings and experiences of this flowing-free wisdom being manifested?

What then of all the free-flowing deliberation naturally arising out of these feelings and experiences?

jufa wrote:
... where one sees the potter's wheel turning smoothly, and noiselessly.

D. v. Rhijn wrote
But one never really does, you see?

jufa's reply:
How then can one claim dukkha can be comprehended, and not sukha the conjoined twin? Mo


jufa wrote:
What then of feelings and experiences of this flowing-free wisdom being manifested? [jufa's question to Rhijn]

D.v.Rhijn wrote
What then of all the free-flowing deliberation naturally arising out of these feelings and experiences?

jufa's reply:
Your question would have automatically been answered if you would have answered my question to you. Do not pose questions if you will not take the responsibility to answers questions. I say this not sacarcasticly, I say this based on this truth, all answers are before the question is. If this was not true, there could never be a question seeking that which already is.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

jufa wrote:How then can one claim dukkha can be comprehended, and not sukha the conjoined twin?

All comprehension is suffering. All free-flowing feeling and experiencing is suffering. The difference is that feelings do not lead any step closer to cessation, they might sooner cloud it. Comprehension might part the clouds but in itself does not provide cessation - on the contrary, it brings out in the open what was festering below.

juf wrote:What then of feelings and experiences of this flowing-free wisdom being manifested?

Diebert wrote:What then of all the free-flowing deliberation naturally arising out of these feelings and experiences?

Your question would have automatically been answered if you would have answered my question to you.

Well, no, that is not true. You claimed the activity of deliberation halts the "flowing-free wisdom" manifested in feelings and experiences.

My aim here is to show how deliberation is a function to deal with feelings and experiencing, all turned back on itself. Painful perhaps but how else one could wake up out of the ignorance that is the real cause of suffering?

jufa wrote:
What then of feelings and experiences of this flowing-free wisdom being manifested?

Diebert wrote:
What then of all the free-flowing deliberation naturally arising out of these feelings and experiences?

Your question would have automatically been answered if you would have answered my question to you.

Well, no, that is not true. You claimed the activity of deliberation halts the "flowing-free wisdom" manifested in feelings and experiences.

My aim here is to show how deliberation is a function to deal with feelings and experiencing, all turned back on itself. Painful perhaps but how else one could wake up out of the ignorance that is the real cause of suffering?

Forgive me Diebert for this late reply, I am just now seeing this.

I did not claim the activity of deliberation halts anything. Those are your words.

My question was:

What then of feelings and experiences of this flowing-free wisdom being manifested?

it has nothing to say about deliberations.

If deliberations, as you claim turn back on itself, deliberation also proceed as a forward thrust from within itself. This means both conditions do not depend on feelings, but what one is thinking in the moment to cause pain or pleasure. Thus, it is thought remembered, or anticipated which provokes feelings.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

jufa wrote: I did not claim the activity of deliberation halts anything. Those are your words.

Not quite: they were the words of movingalways: "for it is the activity of deliberation that halts the free-flowing wisdom of the Infinite Self", on which I initially reacted. It would be interesting to hear your reaction to the initial topic as well, instead of just your response to my reply to movingalways.

I also didn't say that that deliberations "turn back on itself". It's the turning back I call deliberation.

Hope this clears things up.

Hi Diebert!!!

Thank you for the clarification.

Peace to you!!!

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:

movingalways wrote:... for it is the activity of deliberation that halts the free-flowing wisdom of the Infinite Self.

Consider for a moment that all activity is as such, including the feelings and experiences you're perhaps holding to be a manifestation of this "free-flowing wisdom". And it's not really halting of course - it's all dukkha, the potter's wheel screeching.

Diebert, my thoughts on your reaction to my thoughts:

The feelings and experiences to which man is attached are those of his conditioned awareness, which is an extension of, but is not the nature of, his unconditioned awareness. One awareness, two laws of spirit-thought movement. Conditioned awareness is manifested by the law of the breath of the spirit of life; unconditioned awareness, by the law of the spirit of life. In the bible, this is expressed by the scripture "My Ways are not your ways, my thoughts are not your thoughts, saith THE LORD."

The Infinite, free-flowing infinite thoughts of unconditioned awareness are invisible to the conditioned "let me think about it" awareness of the senses. They are the invisible thoughts that cause your hair to grow or that stop your hair from growing, regardless of your interpretations of the visible appearance of your hair (or lack thereof). You may love your hair, you may hate your hair (feelings and experiences of "holding on" to thoughts of your hair), but no matter what you feel about your hair, the Invisible Infinite Thinker of "hair" cares not a whit. In the bible, this wisdom is expressed by the scripture "God is no respecter of persons."

Relating what I have presented above to the message of my original post: it is when we deliberate on our interpretations of what we see, hear, taste, touch and smell [hair, for an example] or that which we believe has come about because of our sense interpretations [ego, for an example], our conscious awareness of the invisible, free-flowing thought that is the origin of the thought "hair" and the thought "ego", is veiled to our awareness.

There is never a state of awareness that is not married to thought (I and the Father are One), but the state of sense thought awareness is not the same state of awareness as is the state of pure spirit thought awareness. Sense interpretation produces a shadow of "thinking about" (deliberation). Pure spirit awareness (let there be, and there was! - let hair grow, and it grows!) is without the shadow of "thinking about."

The dukkha wheel that screeches is of man's finite conditioned awareness; within the Pure Awarness of Unconditioned Thought, no screeching can be heard. Whenever man transcends (rejects as being real) his screechings, precept by precept, line by line, here a little, there a little, he becomes increasingly attuned to the silent thoughts of Pure Awareness. Eventually transcending his conditioned awareness in its entirety, to ascend wholly into his unconditioned awareness of "I AM [all in all]".

movingalways wrote: The Infinite, free-flowing infinite thoughts of unconditioned awareness are invisible to the conditioned "let me think about it" awareness of the senses. They are the invisible thoughts that cause your hair to grow

Hmm are you sure talking about "invisible thoughts" that would fuel hair growth is the best way to talk about these things? If a thought is invisible and thus no-one can hear or read it, can it still be called a thought? Tree, fall, forest, sound?

The dukkha wheel that screeches is of man's finite conditioned awareness; within the Pure Awarness of Unconditioned Thought, no screeching can be heard.

In a heavily drugged, distracted or damaged mind the screeching will fall below hearing level too. The screeching is really just the noise of the clockwork, of life, and it doesn't really stop. It's about building a different relationship with all of it.

he becomes increasingly attuned to the silent thoughts of Pure Awareness.

The no-thoughts of no-awareness. The question one should ask, if one still has the ability is: what was accomplished? Did my awareness actually grow or has it just become less capable. How would one go about finding out the answer to this?

movingalways wrote:
The Infinite, free-flowing infinite thoughts of unconditioned awareness are invisible to the conditioned "let me think about it" awareness of the senses. They are the invisible thoughts that cause your hair to grow

Diebert wrote:
Hmm are you sure talking about "invisible thoughts" that would fuel hair growth is the best way to talk about these things? If a thought is invisible and thus no-one can hear or read it, can it still be called a thought? Tree, fall, forest, sound?

Since man is limited to words in the sense realm, the word "thought" is but a pointer. Another word that can be used to point to the nature of reality would be "interpretation." It is my conclusion that any and all are welcome to challenge is that there can be no awareness (life) if there is no interpretation of that which one is aware.

What you have presented for me here with your tree, fall, forest, sound scenario, is an example of sense (breath-dependent) awareness. The moment you said these words to yourself, you gave them life within yourself. The moment I read your words, I gave life to them in my awareness. Every human thought is sense (breath) dependent.

movingalways wrote:
The dukkha wheel that screeches is of man's finite conditioned awareness; within the Pure Awarness of Unconditioned Thought, no screeching can be heard.

Diebert wrote:
In a heavily drugged, distracted or damaged mind the screeching will fall below hearing level too. The screeching is really just the noise of the clockwork, of life, and it doesn't really stop. It's about building a different relationship with all of it.

Right here you have identified the veil that is present between sense-dependent interpreting, and interpreting that is not dependent on the senses to be. It is the sense-dependent interpreter that believes that it can build a relationship with the sense-less interpreter, but it cannot. How can that which needs the breath to be interpret that which does not need the breath to be? How can interpretation whose existence is founded upon belief in birth and death interpret interpretation whose existence is not founded upon belief in birth and death? Remember, my use of the word "interpretation" is but a pointer.

movingalways wrote:
he becomes increasingly attuned to the silent thoughts of Pure Awareness.

Diebert wrote:
The no-thoughts of no-awareness. The question one should ask, if one still has the ability is: what was accomplished? Did my awareness actually grow or has it just become less capable. How would one go about finding out the answer to this?

The fact that you are aware of your present state of dual-relative, breath-based interpretations gives evidence that there is a reality of awareness beyond this temporal-spatial awareness. A reality of awareness that itself is interpretative, for it is that which brings your temporal-spatial flesh awareness into being.

Every question one has with regards to the nature of life or self is answered from within, for there is no where else one can go for the answer but within oneself. In other words, the answer is present before the question is asked. And there is always another question as long as one is attached to their sense (breath) interpretations. It is when the attachment to the breath begins to break or be dissolved (belief in a logical reality is an activity of that detachment), that one is expanded into the rest that is the awareness that the breath is not necessary for The Interpreter to be.

Movingalways, it's difficult for me to understand what you're saying. It seems half-finished, always moving around a target but never hitting the eye. As if you're reading the first chapter of a spiritual book and the back flap without intention of going further? Then I think: why stop there? Whatever you've found, one is still free to develop ones thoughts and expressions.

movingalways wrote:...one is expanded into the rest that is the awareness that the breath is not necessary for The Interpreter to be.

There can be no interpreter without interpretation going on. It's one process, one cannot isolate a witness from what is being witnessed. This is a difficult hurdle for most people married to some new or old religion of Gods, Essences, Witnesses or Universal Consciousness. All these crutches are just reinventions of ego but in itself no liberation; it's far from emptiness.

a human is in the process of dying the moment it is born. if dying is opposite to living, are we truly ever living?