Channeled stuff

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Nick
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Re: Announcing "TheAbsolute TV"

Post by Nick »

Carl G wrote:
Also the fact that you can't remember these past lives makes it absolutely meaningless, because one's identity is kept in tact by their ability to in fact remember who they are!
Your feeble point about identity whisked by me, also I suspect, because it has LITTLE OR NOTHING to do with refuting the idea of literal reincarnation.
It has everything to do with it. Calling a specific past life, your past life, is meaningless, because just like every other life, event, and cause that came before you, you have no recollection of it. So, at base everything that came before us is a past life and there is no good reason to refer to one thing/life over another as your actual past life.
Carl G wrote:
It doesn't matter what's going on with the subconscious if you have no conscious memory of yourself, i.e. you have no identity.
Sorry, this isn't about having no conscious memory of yourself. It is not about identity, either. It's about whether having no conscious memory of a past life can proves or be valid evidence for there not being a past life.
I'm not trying to prove that we have no past life, I'm proving that everything is our past lives and they are all equally significant if we can't consciously remember them. The type of reincarnation tibetan buddhists talk about is nothing more than a fairy tale built on ego preservation.

If you want to get really technical about past lives, my past life of the formation of the solar system is far more significant than any "past life" I might have according to tibetan buddhism, and at least I have scientific evidence of the former!
Leyla Shen
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Re: Announcing "TheAbsolute TV"

Post by Leyla Shen »

Kevin Solway wrote:
Nick Treklis wrote:The idea of literal reincarnation is entirely irrational and can absolutely be denied. Because even though said individual is supposed to literally be reborn in a new body, there is no recollection of previous states of consciousness, and even the physical body itself has changed.
Good point, the idea of literal reincarnation is senseless if you can't remember anything of your past lives. It's not much of a continuation of consciousness if you lose 99% of it.

But what if the Dalai Lama really can remember all his past lives, but just chooses not to tell us? It's possible.
Then it wouldn't be a past life, it would be the same life interrupted by something causing amnesia.

Why does it matter?
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Kevin Solway
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Re: Channeled stuff

Post by Kevin Solway »

brokenhead wrote:[quoting the Urantia book]
In the matter of the combination of the better elements in contemporaneous systems of ethical and religious teachings, there have been seven outstanding human teachers: Sethard, Moses, Zoroaster, Lao-tse, Buddha, Philo, and Paul.
All the same, I have a lot of trouble associating Paul with any kind of "better elements", so in my opinion the author of those words was deluded.

But that doesn't in any way dismiss the usefulness of the rest of the writings - even though they don't appeal to me, for the reasons I mentioned.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Channeled stuff

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

Brokenhead, there's not much for me to comment on in your reply, because of agreement mostly, so I'll leave them as they are, apart from the following:
Brokenhead wrote: After all, there is no human author taking credit for what is written in the UB. That in itself makes a difference to me. It should be a red flag to anyone who spends even a moment reading it.
Why the red flag? Myself, I'd prefer anonymous writings over credited ones any time. If it's written in an inspired and selfless manner, the name of the author becomes really only an administrative issue, possibly even distracting from the work. In more ancient times mystical texts were almost never signed by real names but attributed to famous characters. The writer after all was only a conduit or his name was so unknown that it wouldn't help the writing much to attach it. Or the inspiration was dedicated to an angel or the voice of god. To me this makes sense but obviously it's not accepted much in this current age that's so high on credit and name-tagging.
Brokenhead wrote:The facts as I am becoming able in this way to ascertain appear to indicate that the content of the UB contradicts what Sadler's personal belief system had contained. He had been at one point an active Seventh Day Adventist.
Not sure if that means a contradiction. Some churches, even back then, might have been broad enough to contain a lot of different personal belief systems. First of all one of the founders of SDA wrote inspired 'prophecy' books herself which got near bible status for a while and are in detail discussed and analyzed. So the SDA movement already had this element present, as opposed to many other bible-solid denominations.

Secondly, it appears to me that Sadler and Kellogg broke with the SDA way before the UB came to light. Although I've not researched this in depth, some articles on the Web suggest major theological issues but I'm not sure about the exact nature of them. This suggests they could easily have developed their own vision or at least were open minded enough to allow another more 'anthroposophical' type of Christianity at some stage. Personally I've met many Christians in a similar situation from all kinds of liberal and fundamentalist denominations. So this is why I don't see the Church membership of Sadler as an argument in itself.
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Re: Channeled stuff

Post by brokenhead »

maestro wrote:
brokenhead wrote:This is just what I am talking about, Kevin! I still need a reason!

You see, I have given this book to a few trusted people. Several others, such as your neighbor Laird, I have tried to noodge into looking at it. They nod politely but don't bother. Those who do pick it up, put it down very quickly. That is WITHOUT ACTUALLY EXAMINING IT FOR THEMSELVES. It frightens people. And what frightens people more than the truth?

That is indeed why I came to GF. PFTH sounds like it was written by someone who knows how telling the truth can frighten people. Who better to EXAMINE the UB? Am I not thinking logically about this?
Tut tut Brokenhead, you are seeking approval from Kevin about a work to which you seem to be emotionally attached. Why not find out something which is true regardless of approval or disapproaval by somebody, something that shines by its own light.
Well, I do not think I am emotionally attached. I had a dog once - I was emotionally attached to him. This doesn't seem like the same thing. It is a mild obsession - I grant that is an attachment, but I neither feel it positive or negative, as I did with my dog, or a few women, who were at times both positive and negative. The closest word I can come up with is fascinated. If that is an emotion, then I concede the point.

I am not seeking Kevin's approval. As I have mentioned, I am looking for reasons to rule the UB out, to decide with clarity it cannot be what it purports to be. I was seeking Kevin's input, because Kevin seems largely uninfluenced by external affiliations. You and I may often disagree with him, but we probably agree that he cannot be accused of bias based on anything aside from his own analysis. If Kevin were a Seventh Day Adventist - or a member in any standing of any religious group, sect, or cult or even political organization, his input would be of little value to me, no matter what it was, because then he would be more affiliated than I am myself and his analysis suspect. This seems obvious to me.
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Re: Channeled stuff

Post by brokenhead »

Diebert van Rijhn wrote:First of all one of the founders of SDA wrote inspired 'prophecy' books herself which got near bible status for a while and are in detail discussed and analyzed.
It is difficult to ascertain the contents of someone else's mind and heart, especially after they have died, but in Sadler's case, there is some amount of historical record.

Sadler knew Ellen White, the woman you refer to, quite well. She was intrumental in his rise within the SDA's hierarchy, and he worked for one of the Kelloggs, who funded his research and, I believe, the medical training of Sadler and his wife.
Secondly, it appears to me that Sadler and Kellogg broke with the SDA way before the UB came to light. Although I've not researched this in depth, some articles on the Web suggest major theological issues but I'm not sure about the exact nature of them.
Sadler broke with the SDA before the SS ever came into the picture. Kellogg was a major funder of the SDA, as well as a major funder of Sadler's psychological research. Sadler was accused of diverting much of Kellogg's potential SDA funding for his own personal gain.

Kellogg and White were both founding members of the SDA. There developed a rift between them, and Sadler was caught in the middle. He was formally stripped of his offical duties in the SDA organization. He became disillusioned with the claims of divine inspiration by White's followers, and remained a more or less traditional Christian throughout his life. It is widely agreed that he himself did not believe the Urantia papers were of divine origin, but nonetheless was fascinated by them as a psychological occurrence with no precedence in the literature, including Oahspe, with which he as familiar. His fascination is credible since he was responsible for the carefully constructed clinical atmosphere within which the UB papes were received. Many years into the process, Sadler's wife Lena died, and he became somewhat detached from the Forum and its workings. Here, too, political rifts developed and the clinical setting of the Forum began to erode. People who had helped fund it, and there were several due to its rather long history, began to become impatient for the amassed work to be published. This is nothing if not understandable, as America had just been dragged into the War that had ravaged so much of the rest of the world. Many of the regular Forum members had already formed opinions that the UB was genuine. In fact, that seems to be the one thing they agreed on. Many became convinced the world needed its message of hope. Sadler himself was apparently one of the lone holdouts, but towards the end, even though the Forum still met at his residence, his personal control had waned greatly.

This is when the protocol became breached. So any accounts of this period in the papers' history takes the form of personal letters back and forth between Forum members, many of them acrimonious and accusatory. The one consistent theme is that they all believed the papers were historically unique and quite genuine, but each had different ambitions for the future of the papers and felt that their content had been tampered with with personal gain in mind.

So I am left with the contents. If they were entirely authored by humans, I would be curious to see even a stylistic precedent. And there is the motive factor, as I have said. Why would anyone bother to spend years on something so marginally readable, unremunerative, and so audacious in its claims that any rational person would never admit to believing any of them? You would think with a war effort on that threatened to eradicate the world, they would have found better, more constructive things to occupy their time and monetary resources.
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maestro
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Re: Channeled stuff

Post by maestro »

In general the western centric perspective of the book, should be a huge blow to any alien origins.

Consider this quote:
Jesus of Nazareth is identified as a Creator Son who incarnated on Earth and whose life and teachings are portrayed as the fullest revelation of the personality and attitude of God ever given to humanity.
Why is it that the creator son is unknown to most of humanity, until the west spread his name through murder and looting (colonization).
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Re: Channeled stuff

Post by brokenhead »

maestro wrote:In general the western centric perspective of the book, should be a huge blow to any alien origins.

Consider this quote:
Jesus of Nazareth is identified as a Creator Son who incarnated on Earth and whose life and teachings are portrayed as the fullest revelation of the personality and attitude of God ever given to humanity.
Why is it that the creator son is unknown to most of humanity, until the west spread his name through murder and looting (colonization).
I would argue that the Creator Son is still unknown to most of humanity. Wouldn't you agree? What most of humanity knows about is that murder and pillage committed in his name. Or do you think Jesus of Nazareth would have been pleased to see the actions taken in his name?

This is one thing I think Kevin would agree about. He might believe the UB was produced by humans, and deluded ones at that, but he has said many times that Christ's true message remains unknown and misunderstood by the masses. That the church expanded via torture and slaughter in his name means about as much as if I shook my 3-year-old niece to death and said "Maestro told me to do it."

The UB is largely about just this point, maestro. Religion on earth is evolutionary as is everything else aside from what it details as 5 instances of revelation, it, itself, being the fifth and most recent, Christ's life and teachings the most recent before that. The others were the arrival of a Planetary Prince with his entourage ("giants that walked the earth"); the arrival of Adam and Eve fully developed and containing perfected DNA ( they were supposed to build Eden and poplulate it, then send out their offspring to mate with existing humans. Eden was 35000 years ago, the Planetary Prince, Caligastia, nearly 1,000,000 years ago shortly after the first true human beings had evolved.) The third revelation was the arrival of a being known as a Melchizedek, who lived with a nomad we know as Abraham and educated him in monotheism and promised him a nation of offspring, even in his old age.

Our pal mikiel calims to be a Melchizedek priest, but his knowledge of the extensive details of this part of the UB betrays his ignorance of these "facts."

Every populated planet of evolutionary creatures receives a Planetary Prince, an Adam and Eve, and what is known as a Bestowal Son. Only Urantia received the creator, Christ, as its Bestowal Son, which is the only thing that makes us different from any other populated planet. That this was a singular honor in the cosmos was negated by Christ's murder. Urantia (earth) is known on the more advanced worlds with horror as "The World of the Cross."

This is what repulses me about Christianity. Christians revel in the crucifixion and make the sign of the cross in pious superstition. The UB clearly states that Christ did not die "for" our sins, but rather because of them, because of out ignorance and violent hearts. Christ's murder was no more necessary or part of "God's Will" than any other murder. He did not die for the forgiveness of sins, either: Any sin truly repented has always been forgiven. Christ spent much time trying to stop the common practice of animal sacrifice, repeatedly proclaiming the Father was not interested in them and could not be influenced by such acts. To then later claim his human sacrifice of himself pleased the Father is the highest form of idiocy and blasphemy. The Father is consistent; it is people who are not.

Caligastia threw his lot in with Lucifer and ruled earth as a sovereign. He is the "Dark Prince" Christ overturned while he was in the desert; Christ assumed the titular role of Planetary Prince. Many of Caligastia's entourage of powerful spirit beings remain free to roam earth, but not free to invade the minds of men since the days of Christ. Christ is one of the "Elder Gods" of the Mad Arab's Necronomicon; Caligastia is one of the "Ancient Ones" whom the Mad Arab asked for power and what he learned of contacting them is written in the Necronomicon.

Adam and Eve's sin had nothing to do with a tree of knowledge. They are recent arrivals on the scene, in the midst of the Lucifer Rebellion and the Caligastia Betrayal. Caligastia had spawned his "race of Giants" who were physically near-perfect human beings. Adam and Eve were also giants, around nine feet in height and with highly advanced, if not perfect, DNA. But instead of waiting the hundreds of years necesasry to produce a fully populated Garden, which was to become a teaching center for evolutionary mortals, Eve was too impatient to follow the plan, and mated with one of the "Caligastia One Hundred." This produced Cain. In anger, Adam did the same. This led to a strain of mixed linneage that propagated out into the normal, evolutionary peoples. Childbirth had been much the same as in the rest of the animal world; from this point on, the heads of the newborn infants were too large for the cervical dimensions of evolutionary females, and childbirth became painful for the first time.

Eden was supposed to exist in relative secrecy and its existence made known gradually as the evolutionary populace became educated and biologically mixed with Adamic DNA. Eve's betrayal made its existence known, and neighboring tribes began to attack it, believing to be - correctly - some sort of paradise full of riches. The "Land of Nod" is just this outside world, which was populated by evolutionary humans, often led by one or more of Caligastia's renegade entourage, of whom Nod was one of the most famous.
Last edited by brokenhead on Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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maestro
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Re: Channeled stuff

Post by maestro »

Only Urantia received the creator, Christ, as its Bestowal Son, which is the only thing that makes us different from any other populated planet. That this was a singular honor in the cosmos was negated by Christ's murder. Urantia (earth) is known on the more advanced worlds with horror as "The World of the Cross."
That is the problem Broke, in his lifetime Christ was known to so few. One would expect that God, would simultaneously make himself known to all humans? Why appear as a carpenter in some Roman colony, why not say project a giant hologram of yourself in the night sky, so that those Americans, Asians and Africans can gain some benefit.
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Re: Channeled stuff

Post by brokenhead »

maestro wrote:
Only Urantia received the creator, Christ, as its Bestowal Son, which is the only thing that makes us different from any other populated planet. That this was a singular honor in the cosmos was negated by Christ's murder. Urantia (earth) is known on the more advanced worlds with horror as "The World of the Cross."
That is the problem Broke, in his lifetime Christ was known to so few. One would expect that God, would simultaneously make himself known to all humans? Why appear as a carpenter in some Roman colony, why not say project a giant hologram of yourself in the night sky, so that those Americans, Asians and Africans can gain some benefit.
I'm not sure why one would expect that.

But some people still do expect that. It after all is the Jews' major disagreement with Christianity, that he was not very Messiahlike. The entire "Left Behind" series of novels has this kind of thing as a denouement, with a large apparition of angels and Christ, with blaring trumpets and mighty, fearsome voices that each person somehow hears in his or her on tongue.

I read this series out of curiousity and find it a vaccuous and a cynical attempt to cash in on people's sense of powerlessness and emptiness in the modern world.

Isn't Christ's life accused enough already of being fictional because of all the magical thinking, with the miracles and ressurrection? So your contention is that there should have been more of it, and that would have made it more believable? And in every age, I suppose, so Christ's historical period would not have been favored over any other, especially your own, no doubt. I get that, I guess. If there were miracles, why haven't I ever seen any?

The vast majority of the UB's content deals with this very objection of yours. But you would not know that since you have not read any of it. I keep coming back to this point in this thread because I consider it very, very significant to the thread itself.

The other revelations as I outlined them above were not isolated events. Melchizedek started the Salem missionary school, which sent out human teachers whom he had prepared to all parts of Eurasia and many parts of Africa.

This Melchizedek mission is extremely crucial to the spiritual life of humans on this planet. Both prior Revelations had become compromised by the Lucifer Rebellion. Melchizedek arrived on earth as a fully mature man who spent most of his time educating Abraham. He remained on earth for some 80 years, but as he was not human himself, he did not age. His work became threatened as people began to become either frightened by a man who never grew older or began to worship him as a god himself, which was, of course, exactly what he did not want. He was forced to leave before his mission began to unravel due to these superstitions and fears. He had succeeded in solidifying the monotheistic views of the Hebrews, even if they still believed that their military foes had their own gods and theirs own, singular Yahweh was merely a better god than the rest.

The Shiva, Vishnu, and Brahma Trinity is the remnant of the ancient teachings of Edenic missionaries and these later Salem missionaries to educate the Deccan peoples about the Triune nature of the Godhead. The UB describes in detail how, where, and when the races of color began, how they migrated, and how their religious notions were influenced, in the cases that they were, by one or more of the five Revelations. It is also noteworthy that as humanity is an evolving thing, so is its relationship with and knowledge of the Gods.

In brief, why should you expect the message of God to be fully "out there" and accepted in YOUR lifetime, when it clearly has not been in anyone else's lifetime, not even Christ's own? And by objecting to someting like the UB - without reading any of it, I might add again - how are YOU helping the heretofore left out peoples of the world become included? I am only asking you that not to be especially accusatory, but because it is what I have already asked myself when the same objections you raise occurred to me.

In other words, what you think should have happened is moot, considering what has been happening all along. Revelations are always intended not to also be revolutionary, in the sense that they cause upheaval, warfare, and strife. The very failure of the Edenic mission was due to Eve's impatience with the Divine plan, the one she and all the other Adams and Eves are trained for on the worlds of their divine origin.

Look at it this way. Suppose you had a very young child whom you adored. You want this child to have every advantage of knowing truth about life, and not to suffer the delusions of all the other fools. Does that mean you take him at two or three, and force him to watch graphic footage of human sexuality and human violence and cruelty to other humans and animals, with blood and disembowelment and brutal rape and wailing and gnashing of teeth?

Not bloody likely, maestro. First, you insulate the child from such things, and try to give him the tools to handle the truth when he inevitably encounters it. You give him, because you love him, the means to fight back.

And the fact is, in Christ's lifetime, if the copious details of the UB have any validity, he was quite well-known. There was no TV or printing press. There was word-of-mouth, and travel by foot. The UB gives a year-by-year account of his life. He was literate in Aramaic, Hebrew, and Greek, as he lived at a caravan crossroads. He travelled to Rome and later to India as a private tutor of a wealthy merchant.

I cannot take seriously the objection that Christ did not personally overwhelm and browbeat the populace with huge holograms in the sky or any other kind of gimmick. It would not have been consistent with his message, which was intended to help people find love in their hearts, not fear in their minds or terror in their souls. It would have been the same mistake that Adam and Eve made, attempting something in a short period of time that by nature requires a gentle awakening. It was his personal mandate which Adam and Eve abrogated by their actions; it would be inconsistent for him to have done the same thing, IMO.

You will observe that the miracles attributed to him arose out of compassion, not the attempt to awe, overwhelm, intimidate, or even win anyone over. It is worthwhile to note that the UB takes great pains to debunk many of the so-called "miracles," while elaborating on others and describing some not in the Gospels. If there is an ulterior motive for doing so - that is, if the UB were entirely made up to achieve some purpose other than its purported one - it by and large escapes me.

The UB's message is simplicity itself: Take heart, for you are incredibly loved. You need do, and in fact can do, nothing to deserve, earn, or ensure this love. It is Divine in origin; it remains only for the Divine in you to accept it or reject it. This is really the only thing over which your Will has power. Kevin will disagree with this and tell you even in this your decision is caused from without, the extent to which you mindfully make such a decision is the extent to which you are deluded about it. If he were wrong in nothing else, he would yet be incorrect about this one thing. No philosophy can override or refute God's will or logically disabuse his children of his promise to them; voluntarily submitting your Will to the Divine Will is your divine right. If you could not do this, then you would indeed be subject completely to the whims of fate. It is a fatal error of logic to conclude that being completely the effect of external causes no matter what you decide or do is the same thing as surrendering your Will to the Divine Will. If it were, it could be logically proven or demonstrated, and it cannot. This, and not some mass-produced little white wafer over which mumbo-jumbo is pronounced, is the true "mystery of faith."
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maestro
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Re: Channeled stuff

Post by maestro »

Broke, your approach to the ultimate is too heavy on mythology and magic, while Kevin's approach is logical and atheistic (though he fails to acknowledge his assumptions now and then). How can he ever appreciate let alone validate your path.
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Re: Channeled stuff

Post by brokenhead »

maestro wrote:Broke, your approach to the ultimate is too heavy on mythology and magic, while Kevin's approach is logical and atheistic (though he fails to acknowledge his assumptions now and then). How can he ever appreciate let alone validate your path.
Well, again, I am not asking him to. He has already said that if I can find truth in the UB or anywhere else, it is up to me to glean it and analyze it. I appreciate this input very much. It was surprisingly nonjudgmental.

What I was trying to do, and still will, is try to comprehend the UB as it is and evaluate it from there. This is basically what Kevin is suggesting, and he does make sense. Kevin does not really fail to acknowledge his assumptions very often, I have noticed. If he did, I would not have sought out his input. He might indeed be atheistic, but this does not count against him in the least. Rather, it means he will be less biased than someone who is not, including myself. I would not really need the input of somone who I can see is more biased than myself, right? Does this make sense?

Kevin has said he is not interested in delving into the UB. That's fair, don't you think? And knowing that, why would I want him to validate my "path"? I was hoping he could illuminate it if he were more familiar with the UB and its inception. I'll take his advice for what it is - it seems rational and sound, and that is all I can really ask.

However, I do not think my path is very magical at all. I say this because I have studied the life and times of Crowley and the Golden Dawn and the Theosophists in reaction to what I early on felt was an immense surge of horse shit in the popular mind. I was pretty well isolated with my science studies in the 1970's, and when I came up for air, it seemed like rational people I had grown up with were buying crystals and opening up New Age shops and wearing Earth Shoes. All I could think of was "WTF?!!!"

This WTF approach is what my path is most like. For example, I first saw my own chakras - many times, under the influence of a substance which shall remain nameless to protect the innocent. I had never heard of the term. But I saw drawings of them in a book I stumbled upon and only then learned about them. This has been the order of discovery in my life. First I experience, then I say WTF, then I try to learn and synthesize.
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Re: Channeled stuff

Post by maestro »

brokenhead wrote: For example, I first saw my own chakras - many times, under the influence of a substance which shall remain nameless to protect the innocent.
Yeah you told me before. From which locus of observation did you view the Chakras, was it an out of body perspective, or your normal visual perspective?
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Re: Announcing "TheAbsolute TV"

Post by Ataraxia »

Kelly Jones wrote:
Nick Treklis wrote:
Kevin Solway wrote:But what if the Dalai Lama really can remember all his past lives, but just chooses not to tell us? It's possible.
Then he would be an exception, because if I'm correct, Tibetan Buddhism has defined reincarnation in a way that the reincarnated individual can not remember their past lives.
That's the weird thing. Ordinary people aren't supposed to remember, but ordained persons may.
It's not weird,it's typical theistic dissembling."Special Pleading",covering up the cracks in their philosophy,call it what you like.
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Re: Channeled stuff

Post by brokenhead »

maestro wrote:
brokenhead wrote: For example, I first saw my own chakras - many times, under the influence of a substance which shall remain nameless to protect the innocent.
Yeah you told me before. From which locus of observation did you view the Chakras, was it an out of body perspective, or your normal visual perspective?
It was visual, but not normally so, as my eyes were closed most of the times. Physically, I was supine, and in a relaxed state.

I have experimented many times and have changed little things in my surroundings to see if they made a difference. This would include music, or various states of dimness in the room. Such things affect the experience of "visiting" the chakras, but in an intrusive way. In other words, sound and external light is more distracting than anything.

I have to stress that my usage of drugs has never been recreational. Well, I take that back: if a joint came my way during a Grateful Dead concert, I wouldn't pass it up. The concert-going days are largely in the past for me. But mostly I have experimented on my own, and the one particular drug that has seemed useful has enabled me to experience things like out of body instances.

As a result of repitition, I suppose, I became able to still my mind. This is a crucial thing. This is how I am able to know that the chakras are "real" and were not hallucinations. The mind's natural state is to be in motion, it is dynamic. This method of investigation gave me visusal feedback, to the extent that I was not having my thoughts but rather "seeing" them. This process - while under the influence of the drug - enabled me to quell my own thoughts. This is a difficult thing to accomplish, I can tell you. It took me many tries, but it is actually a skill! I find that quelling my thoughts is something I can now do at will. I have even managed to do it on a noisy subway ride, but it takes concentration.

All of which is to say that when the thoughts I am thinking have been quelled, something remained. Forgive me if I am not able to put it into words satisfactorily for you. What remained was the experience of "rising in the aethers" as Crowley put it.

I have often thought that it was as if the thinnest of all possible fibers was connecting me to some kind of eye. This eye is able to travel along my spinal column and locate the chakras from the inside out. In my case, and under my set of unadvisable circumstances. In this manner I was able to pierce my heart chakra as if I were a needle. Mind you, this was well into my self-experimentation, as I now knew what I was looking for. The sensation is indescribable, but I'll try: it was a release akin to a very nice shit or having an orgasm, and the visual as an unrecognizable figure leaping through a ring of fire.

The chakras are vortices which exist on another "plane," in that most people can not see them. (The next closest, most dense plane to ours is called the etheric plane in most Theosophist literature.) It exists in the sense that some people can in fact see things on this plane, and under the influence of this drug, I also was able to see things. Kevin might argue that such things are a manifestation, or an hallucination, of one's own mind. But to me, the chakras are as real as my thumb. I in no sense designed them, at least not consciously. I discovered them before I had ever heard the term, much like I first saw my own thumb before I ever learned the word "thumb." I have been only able to "see" them in this manner, and it includes the quelling of the mind which I mentioned above.

Why would anyone want to do something like this? That's why I write here under an alias. I don't think it is a good idea for people to experiment upon themselves with drugs, at least it is not something I would recommend at a local PTA meeting.

But when I became able to quell my mind so that the "I" was strictly observing and not creating thoughts, I decided to keep pursuing my experiments.
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