GENIUS FORUMS

Anyone read into David Bohm? Dr. MICHIO KAKU?

I've studied quite a bit of David Bohm, here are a few passages that might spark some discussion:

"According to our current understanding of physics, every region of space is awash with different kinds of fields composed of waves of varying lengths. Each wave always has at least some energy. When physicists calculate the minimum amount of energy a wave can possess, they find that every cubic centimeter of empty space contains more energy than the total energy of all the matter in the known universe.
"The Explicate Order, weakest of all energy systems, resonates out of and is an expression of an infinitely more powerful order of energy called the Implicate order. It is the precursor of the Explicate, the dreamlike vision or the ideal presentation of that which is to become manifest as a physical object. The Implicate order implies within it all physical universes. However, it resonates from an energy field which is yet greater, the realm of pure potential. It is pure potential because nothing is implied within it; implications form in the implicate order and then express themselves in the explicate order. Bohm goes on to postulate a final state of infinite [ zero point] energy which he calls the realm of insight intelligence. The creative process springs from this realm. Energy is generated there, gathers its pure potential, and implies within its eventual expression as the explicate order."

-Will Keepin, David Bohm, Noetic Science Journal


"Space is not empty. It is full, a plenum as opposed to a vacuum, and is the ground for the existence of everything, including ourselves. The universe is not separate from this cosmic sea of energy, it is a ripple on its surface, a comparatively small "pattern of excitation" in the midst of an unimaginably vast ocean. "This excitation pattern is relatively autonomous and gives rise to approximately recurrent, stable and separable projections into a three-dimensional explicate order of manifestation," states Bohm.[12] In other words, despite its apparent materiality and enormous size, the universe does not exist in and of itself, but is the stepchild of something far vaster and more ineffable. More than that, it is not even a major production of this vaster something, but is only a passing shadow, a mere hiccup in the greater scheme of things."

[12] Bohm, _Wholeness_, p.192"

Physicist David Bohm, one of Einstein's protégés, delved yet more deeply into the wave/particle duality mystery. He took the implications of the new physics even farther. He discerned that if the nature of subatomic particles depends on an observer’s perspective, then it is futile to search for a particle’s actual properties, as was science’s goal, or to think that subatomic particles, the essence of matter, even exist before someone observes them. In his plasma experiments at the Berkeley Radiation Laboratory, Bohm found that individual electrons act as part of an interconnected whole. In plasma, a gas composed of electrons and positive ions in high concentration, electrons more or less assume the nature of a self-regulating organism, as if they were inherently intelligent. Bohm found, to his amazement, that the subatomic sea he created was conscious. By extension, the vast sub-atomic reality that is material creation may also be said to be conscious. To those who foresaw the implications, Bohm shattered the useful but limiting premise that led science to its many achievements in modern times, crossing a new barrier, beyond which lurked the unknown, a scientific twilight zone. Intellectual observation, it turned out, the fulcrum of the scientific method since Francis Bacon, could only take an observer so far."

As with any dogma, what was once a useful guideline became a stifling limitation. Negating the ability of the human intellect alone to fathom ultimate reality, Bohm, then, challenged the scientific world to adopt a more profound understanding. Reality, Bohm’s work suggests, has a more subtle nature than that which can be defined by linear, human thinking, the province of modern science and the intellect. Within the fabric of reality, Bohm found not just the wave/particle duality phenomenon, as described above, but an interconnectedness, a Non-Space or Non-Local reality where only the appearance of waves also being particles exists. He saw, perhaps intuitively, that it is ultimately meaningless to see the universe as composed of parts, or disconnected, since everything is joined, space and time being composed of the same essence as matter. A subatomic particle, then, does not suddenly change into a wave (at velocities that would have to be beyond the speed of light, as Bohm’s mentor, Einstein, suggested), it already is a wave sharing the same Non-Space as the particle. Reality, then, is not material in any common sense of the word. It is something far more ineffable. Physicists call this Non-Locality. Mystics call it oneness.
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In spite of those who disagreed, Bohm evolved a yet more profound understanding, that of an interconnected whole with a conscious essence, where all matter and events interact with one another, because time, space and distance are an illusion relative to perspective. He developed, in fact, a holographic model of the universe, where the whole can be found in the most minute part, a blade of grass, an atom, and where matter, circumstance and dimension result from holographic projections of subtle, but powerful, conscious energy. Actual location and, by extension, the shape-shifting of particles, all manifest reality, in fact, exist only in the context of relative appearances. Bohm discovered that every thing is connected to everything else, past, present and future, as well as time, space and distance, because it all occupies the same Non-Space and Non-Time.
-------------------------------------------------------------Negating the ability of the human intellect alone to fathom ultimate reality, Bohm, then, challenged the scientific world to adopt a more profound understanding. Reality, Bohm’s work suggests, has a more subtle nature than that which can be defined by linear, human thinking, the province of modern science and the intellect
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David Bohm brought to physics and the scientific world the understanding that has propelled mystics and sages since the dawn of time. Rejecting the idea that particles do not exist until they are observed, he, like Noble laureate and renowned physicist Brian Josephson, saw that physics must see the nature of subatomic reality in a new way. It is not simply that conscious perspective effects the nature of the subatomic quanta, Bohm revealed, but that the subatomic quanta is conscious, which means that everything is conscious, even inanimate objects and seemingly empty space, the very definition, if one were possible, of mystical or spiritual reality
-------------------------------------------------------------David Bohm argues that the best way of understanding the non-local connection in modern physics - Herbert's "cosmic glue" - is to regard both Mind and Universe as holograms. In a hologram, any part contains the information of the whole, as any page of _Finnegans Wake_, fully analyzed, seems to contain the information of the whole


I never read much of Dr. Michio Kaku -what I did read seems to be dull in comparision to Bohm's thoughts. Bohm seems to have had more passion. He went to great lengths to apply his discoveries in physics to treating the ugliness of the human condition. He seemed very concerned about steering humanity in the right direction.

Both Michio Kaku and Bohm were Einsteins successors.

So space is loaded with matter and all matter has fields. There is something new here, like space has more energy than the known 'solid' universe; or did I mis read that. Figures though. Matter gives up energy as it comes together, as in fusion, and it take energy to disintergrate matter into so much hydrogen, or electro magnetic waves; so it is possible. What do you think?

Cory Patrick (quoting David Bohm) wrote:When physicists calculate the minimum amount of energy a wave can possess, they find that every cubic centimeter of empty space contains more energy than the total energy of all the matter in the known universe.

Was that a very early writing? This was a problem in classical physics that was resolved by the quantum mechanics.

David Bohm was indeed brilliant as he was an intuiative/mystic to reach his conclusions.

One of his associates said that his math skills were pathetic but he arrived at conclusions in seconds that when weeks later were checked by math he was found to almost always be correct.

Cory wrote:

When physicists calculate the minimum amount of energy a wave can possess, they find that every cubic centimeter of empty space contains more energy than the total energy of all the matter in the known universe

Dhodges replied:

Was that a very early writing? This was a problem in classical physics that was resolved by the quantum mechanics.

It was probably an early writing. I suspect that "the quantum mechanics" you are refering to is the more mainstream interpretation. There are different interepretations of quantum mechanics. Bohm had his own interpretation of quantum mechanics, and i'm not sure if his interpretation resovled what you consider a 'problem'. I'll have to look into it more. Dhodges, maybe you could explain how exactly this problem was resolved? I havent been dabbling in this stuff for very long so I considered my self pretty embryonic when it comes to explaining this sort of stuff, however, I would like to get a handle on this stuff. I think a good place to start is to realize there is a division among physists - the more mainstream, and the more bohmian interpretation. There are probably other interpreations as well.

The Bohm interpretation is not popular among most physicists for mostly scientific, psychological and sociological reasons that would serve as a facinating thread in itself. Bohm's interpretation was considered an "unnecessary superstructure" even by Einstein who dreamed about a deterministic replacement for the Copenhagen interpretation. Presumably Einstein, and others, disliked the non-locality of most interpretations of quantum mechanics, as he tried to show its incompleteness in the EPR paradox. The Bohm theory is unavoidably non-local, which counted as a strike against it; but this is now less so, because non-locality has become more compelling due to experimental verification of Bell's Inequality.

However the theory was used by others as the basis of a number of books such as The Dancing Wu Li Masters, which purport to link modern physics with Eastern religions. This, as well as Bohm's long standing philosophical friendship with J. Krishnamurti, may have led some to discount it.

Cory Patrick wrote: I suspect that "the quantum mechanics" you are refering to is the more mainstream interpretation.

There are many interpretations, but there is only one quantum mechanics. I don't think this has much to do with interpretation.

I don't have the particulars in front of me, so I will relate this in general terms and I may get some details wrong. Around the end of the 1800's, classical physics had a problem, which was, that every wave in a given volume of empty space had some energy associated with it. If you added it all up, you didn't just get a very large number, you got infinity. This was embarassing, as in physics, an answer of "infinity" generally means you screwed up somewhere.

By allowing waves in a volume to only occupy certain quantum states, and associating with those waves a probability of occuring, then you could sum over all possible states, and get a finite answer (corresponding to the temperature, IIRC). So QM solved this problem, giving a meaningful finite answer instead of a meaningless one.

So space is loaded with matter and all matter has fields. There is something new here, like space has more energy than the known 'solid' universe; or did I mis read that. Figures though. Matter gives up energy as it comes together, as in fusion, and it take energy to disintergrate matter into so much hydrogen, or electro magnetic waves; so it is possible. What do you think?

I really dont know what to think on Bohm. I'll admit, my understanding of what he is saying, and physics in general is vague. Intuitively, it makes sense to me that emptiness(space) would contain within it, everything, fullness, plenum, etc.....and form, would be....see, that's where I'm stuck. My knowledge on this sort of thing is pretty weak.

So matter disipates energy as it grows, And matter absorbes energy as it disintegrates. Thats simple enough. A good example is a baby animal growing into a full grown adult. As the animal grows, surely there is the disipation of energy as well as the absorption of new energy. So ulimatley they (growth and death) are two sides to the same coin, no? A growing animal is undergoing constant destruction and creation (of cells).

One of the main reason I posted this Bohm thread was because I've had somewhat telepathic, clairvoyant, and synchronistic experiences in the past and i'm trying to understand them via physics.

Bohm works seems to be supportive of those sorts of experiences.


Dhodges, your grasp of quantum mechanics seems beyond mine, I wouldnt know where to begin to respond to what you just said. I can only nod my head in a stupified agreement. Bohms work is more filled with intuitive ideology (or perhaps just plain fanciful) and that's why I'm attracted to it. Bohm's seems to suggest that the universe is holographic in nature, as well as conscious. If the universe is conscious, I am not pretending to understanding exactly how that would work. Bohm would say that even a rock as a certain degree of conscoiusness.

All this info and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee at any seven-eleven in America.