GENIUS FORUMS

Global warming: could it cause the next ice age?

I read an interesting theory posed by a geologist that suggests that a hot house period may actually cause an ice age period.

Scientists now hold a consensus that we are quickly entering a hot house period and human industrial activities are speeding up and contributing to the severity of that process. At first this theory sounds ridiculous, how could global warming actually cause an ice age? It sounds irrational, almost paradoxical, and this is when I considered the possibility of there being some truth to it.

I said to myself: “maybe these scientists actually have something here”

First of all, what is the primary governing factor that keeps the temperate climates stabilized? Temperate climates meaning: Northern Europe, Canada, Northeastern US, Russia, China and so on.

Someone may say air currents/jet streams that bring moisture/weather from the equator, but this is only a part of it. These process is heavily regulated and dependent on warm salt water oceanic currents that run throughout each ocean near the temperate zones. These warm oceanic currents keep the temperate climates temperate.

Now as the ice caps melt, and billions tons of fresh water enters the northern oceans and travels towards these warm salt water oceanic currents and makes contact, what do you think will happen?

This is a difficult question, and many scientists have only speculated, they have merely ventured their own educated guesses into the many possibilities. So before I tell you, you should keep in mind this is merely a theory and nothing else.

Some geologists believe that the billions of tons of fresh water could either cool down the oceanic currents or change their trajectory, but either outcome would have drastic consequences for the temperate climates. Essentially the loss of the these currents operating as they are would freeze the temperate zones solid.

Next question:

Does the earth have this sort of feedback loop established and why? Is it a safety mechanism build into the earth?

Consider this: the ice caps melt, the ocean currents are altered causing the temperate regions to freeze, which freezes the ice caps back up again. It comes around in a full circle. The only problem is that the amount of land for humans is reduced. Where will all these humans go? Perhaps all us Canadians could go to India, I hear they need a few extra citizens there.

Underground would be nice. Thanks to geothermal activity, it does not matter what the surface temperature is. Underground condos also means no lawn to mow, no hurricanes or tornados to worry about - just stay away from where the tectonic plates meet and we'll have it made.

We should all go underground anyway and save the surface as much as possible for trees and other vegitation. Plus it would be safer in case of a nuclear accident or various types of bombings. Finally, security would be optimal. Screen people as they go into various pods, and once inside, everyone would be safe.

To optimize social existence, we could also designate various pods for social preferences: the loud, party-types in one pod, the quiet, medatative types in another pod, child molesters can have their own pod rather than some stupid piece of paper asking them to stay so far away from children, and of course have mixed pods, especially for central areas where people of various interests must gather (like hospitals or other places of business where people can not telecommute).

Pre-planned pod structures could also maximize efficiency of mass-transit systems, thereby reducing energy waste. Some pods may even go for the maximum efficiency scenario, where all meals and other services are done en masse.

Geese Elizabeth, you’re really pushing for these underground pods aren’t you? It appears you have given the idea a lot of thought. Honesty I have never thought of such a thing, and I’d think I’d prefer to live on the surface where we have a sun, vegetatation and aesthetic beauty. The depression rates would probably be incredibly high in underground pods, I probably wouldnt have the will to live in a setting like that. I'm afraid there would be alot of suicide pods as well as child molester pods.

The problem with the pod idea is that people need exposure to sunlight to regulate their biological clocks. I don't know what would happen if everyone was suddenly completely deprived of it....I'm sure scientists somewhere have already tested this.

Edit: Wow I'm lazy, Ryan, I didn't read your post where you basically said that same thing. My apologies.

Not only could people still have fresh-air time which would be of higher quality than the smog-air time people now have (and not too much different as people often spend much of their time in buildings away from sunlight anyway) but halogen lighting is close enough to natural lighting to be an excellent substitue. furthermore, that could be regulated by dimmers to a scientifically adjusted quanity that would optimize the human experience (as opposed to just relying on whatever time the sun comes up or goes down in your geographic location).

Studies have been done on the optimal amount of time for humans to be awake and asleep, and it was found that humans do best on a day that is a bit longer than 24 hours (I forget how long now, maybe it was something like a 25.5 hour day). Anyway, we could regulate the days and nights to what is best for everyone.

There could even be a "night shift" pod regulated for "daylight" to be at opposing hours so that no one has to suffer the ill health effects of working night shift.

Liz,

The next time you take a holiday, come to Montreal.

"Montreal's Underground City (French: La ville souterraine) is the set of underground city complexes in and around downtown Montreal, Quebec, Canada. It is also known as the indoor city (ville intérieure), and is the largest underground complex in the world."

Watch out for the Morlocks, though.

Just to be clear. This IS an ice age currently. It's just a warm spell. The ice has been creeping south and receding cyclically for a long long time.

So, "global warming" or not, the ice is coming back at some point. Also, it only takes ten years or less for ice to cover everything as far south as Tennesee.

beebuddy wrote:Just to be clear. This IS an ice age currently. It's just a warm spell. The ice has been creeping south and receding cyclically for a long long time.

So, "global warming" or not, the ice is coming back at some point. Also, it only takes ten years or less for ice to cover everything as far south as Tennesee.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NthiA9bVaGg

If humanity reaches the point where we must collectively resort to living in deep rat holes in the ground then we should just like the species die.

The horrid conditions aren’t worth it, existence isn’t that special.

The equator will stay warm. Ice has never gone that far. I believe that ice hasn't made it to Mexico either. That could be innacurate though.

Ryan Rudolph wrote:If humanity reaches the point where we must collectively resort to living in deep rat holes in the ground then we should just like the species die.

The horrid conditions aren’t worth it, existence isn’t that special.

Aww, Ryan - you can go out and play in the snow when you want to. Who says the conditions have to be horrid? Somebody could probably make it worth your while down there.

Or would you rather go the route of the sage, for whom it does not matter what life is like so long as wisdom survives, as he is not attached to creature comforts.

Basically all that it means is that there will be less livable land. And not even necessarily so. With so much ocean water in the form of ice the sea-levels will drop which may reveal more inhabitable land.

All it really means is that Kow will be my new roomate during his his journey southward.

Elizabeth wrote:

Or would you rather go the route of the sage, for whom it does not matter what life is like so long as wisdom survives, as he is not attached to creature comforts.

That is one '"sage’s" opinion, I tend to come from the school of thought that doesn’t give a damn if my personal wisdom survives, if all the wisdom was destroyed tomorrow, humans would continue to learn from their suffering independently of the past teachers, I am more concerned with my own happy existence while I am here, and if that existence involves living in rat holes then count me out – (Ryan sticks his tongue out at Elizabeth)…

Beebuddy wrote:

All it really means is that Kow will be my new roomate during his his journey southward.

Think again beebuddy, what do you think would happen if billions of people from both the northern hemisphere and the southern hemisphere try to squeeze into a small area like the equator that is already drastically overpopulated?

You think the world is fighting for resources now, you think Kow is your comrade now, but under the right circumstances the old boy may cut your throat for a mango.

Ryan Rudolph wrote:Elizabeth wrote:

Or would you rather go the route of the sage, for whom it does not matter what life is like so long as wisdom survives, as he is not attached to creature comforts.

That is one '"sage’s" opinion, I tend to come from the school of thought that doesn’t give a damn if my personal wisdom survives, if all the wisdom was destroyed tomorrow, humans would continue to learn from their suffering independently of the past teachers, I am more concerned with my own happy existence while I am here, and if that existence involves living in rat holes then count me out – (Ryan sticks his tongue out at Elizabeth)…

(Elizabeth sticks her tongue out at him back, pounces on Ryan, knocking him into the first snowbank of the New Ice Age, and makes him make snowangels until he's laughing and decides he's having a good time.)

Ryan Rudolph wrote:Elizabeth wrote:

Or would you rather go the route of the sage, for whom it does not matter what life is like so long as wisdom survives, as he is not attached to creature comforts.

That is one '"sage’s" opinion, I tend to come from the school of thought that doesn’t give a damn if my personal wisdom survives, if all the wisdom was destroyed tomorrow, humans would continue to learn from their suffering independently of the past teachers, I am more concerned with my own happy existence while I am here, and if that existence involves living in rat holes then count me out – (Ryan sticks his tongue out at Elizabeth)…

Beebuddy wrote:

All it really means is that Kow will be my new roomate during his his journey southward.

Think again beebuddy, what do you think would happen if billions of people from both the northern hemisphere and the southern hemisphere try to squeeze into a small area like the equator that is already drastically overpopulated?

You think the world is fighting for resources now, you think Kow is your comrade now, but under the right circumstances the old boy may cut your throat for a mango.

Kow wouldn't cut my throat for a mango, he barely eats as it is. Besides, white folks are known for staying where its cold and there is less competition for resources. Plus we blend in with the snow. :)

Elizabeth wrote:

(Elizabeth sticks her tongue out at him back, pounces on Ryan, knocking him into the first snowbank of the New Ice Age, and makes him make snowangels until he's laughing and decides he's having a good time.)

Perhaps after we’re done wrestling in the snow, we could do back to my pod for a little synthesized nutrient muck and dirty mineral water….

(Oh yeah, Ryan jumps up triumphantly and does the moonwalk while 1970s porn music plays in the background)

Ryan Rudolph wrote:Elizabeth wrote:

(Elizabeth sticks her tongue out at him back, pounces on Ryan, knocking him into the first snowbank of the New Ice Age, and makes him make snowangels until he's laughing and decides he's having a good time.)

Perhaps after we’re done wrestling in the snow, we could do back to my pod for a little synthesized nutrient muck and dirty mineral water….

(Oh yeah, Ryan jumps up triumphantly and does the moonwalk while 1970s porn music plays in the background)

(thinking Ryan's decided that maybe he could have a happy existence in pod life after all )

all joking aside, are there any thinkers out there that find problems with this theory?

It is hard to know considering our species have never perceived directly the ice caps thawing and then observed what affect that has on the rest of the world, all we have is geologic data and hypothesis to work with.

If increases in heat cause more "life", which also creates additional heat seeing as all life forms release heat trapped by physical balances, then it is possible that non-human life forms previously caused global warming. A 100% increase in say plankton would perhaps be enough - which could have easily happened through some evolutionary quirk.

Should such a thing have occurred through evolution then it is possible that this resulted in a using up of all available feeding resources, leading to a collapse of the life forms that created the heat in the first instance, which in turn resulted in a rapid heat decline.

The one thing I do not know about life on earth is whether whatever it does in terms of heat production pales in comparison, in a differential sense, to external factors like sun spots, releases of heat from the mantel, or our position as we move through the broader galaxy (as per the Materialist Paradigm).

Ryan Rudolph wrote:all joking aside, are there any thinkers out there that find problems with this theory?

It is hard to know considering our species have never perceived directly the ice caps thawing and then observed what affect that has on the rest of the world, all we have is geologic data and hypothesis to work with.

Ryan, our species have seen the ice caps melt. Lordy, lord. Probably more than just a few times.

halogen lamps and "fresh air time" aren't equivalent, psychologically or physiologically to time spent in the sun and air and grass and ponds and on and on. OK sure, we'd still produce some levels of the chemicals required, but not as much of them... look at people who work night shift or too many hours and don't get out in the sun...

Jamesh wrote:

The one thing I do not know about life on earth is whether whatever it does in terms of heat production pales in comparison, in a differential sense, to external factors like sun spots, releases of heat from the mantel, or our position as we move through the broader galaxy (as per the Materialist Paradigm).

Yes, it's difficult to measure all these other factors relatively. I would say sun spots, mantle heat and human activity are all significant, but in terms of a hierarchy of energy release, it is difficult to know.

Beebuddy wrote:

Ryan, our species have seen the ice caps melt. Lordy, lord. Probably more than just a few times.

Beebuddy, I'm talking about the complete melting of the ice caps. We are watching the beginning stages, but our species have never observed it from start to finish.

Rory wrote:

look at people who work night shift or too many hours and don't get out in the sun...

yeah, they look like zombies, Elizabeth I’m afraid you’re utopian vision would create a society of depressed malnourished zombies.

Ryan,

What makes you think it's possible for the ice caps to completely melt?

The evidence points to the last Ice Age coming from a large comet hitting the Earth, kicking up enough dust into the atmosphere to block out enough sun to cause everything to freeze over, and it happened pretty quickly.

I don't think there's enough evidence to say for sure what will happen or what would happen if, but I think that whatever would happen if the ice caps melted due to globabl warming would happen slowly enough that adaptations for survival could be made.

Who knows if the ice caps would even be there if not for the last Ice Age, caused by a comet impacting the Earth?

Beebuddy wrote:

What makes you think it's possible for the ice caps to completely melt?

First of all, the global temperature increases due to factors like greenhouse gases, sun spots, and mantle heat release. And the ice caps are melting based on the degree to which those factors are in a state of increase.

Based on the current trends there is no evidence that this sort of activity is relenting any time soon, therefore the global temperature will continue to increase resulting in further melting of the ice caps.

the real question here is: Are there any counter-processes to prevent the global temperature from continuing to increase until all the ice caps have completely melted?

One of those counter-processes could be the opening theory that I started the post with, perhaps if ~>50% of the ice caps melt, this will be enough to affect the warm oceanic currents in the temperate oceans thus causing the next ice age, but again I am only speculating.

Even the scientists cannot agree on this issue, that is why it is open to debate.